Yoy all have seen the movies where the angels verses the demons, good versus evil here on earth. Well I have always wondered if this really does happen. I mean the people in the movies don't know it is going on so why would we. I know that is Hollywood but what if there are wars right here on earth and we just simply refuse to see it or don't want to or can't. Think about it, imagine if right under our noses the angels are defeating the demons or scary the other way around. If we were able to see this and it was happening would we have a part in the outcomes of these wars between good and evil, or would we want to be involved. If these things are happening maybe we do have a role in the outcome and just don't know it.
Just a thought.

Always a pleasure

Then god would be the commander of a war he could snap his fingers to end. It does't make sense to me, angels are bound by gods will right?

Daniel 10 mentions that angels do battle. Ephesians 6:12 mentions that the believers are involved in these battles and another part of the same chapter explains exactly how a believer participates. Revelation 12:7 mentions the War in Heaven. 2 Thessalonians 2:7 mentions what some believe is the Holy Spirit restrains the mystery of lawlessness which some consider the Antichrist and while this does not specifically mention a battle it could be alluding to that but also it could simply mean that just by the sheer authority of God the mystery of lawlessness is restrained.

Yes, angels do war against demons. I would refer you to the book of Daniel, when Daniel waited 21 days for an angel to come and interpret his dream since the angel was resisted by the prince of Persia (demon) and had to be assisted by Michael. He then left to fight the Prince of Persia again, and also the Prince of Grecia (demon).

Dan 10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Dan 10:20
Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

I think we do have a part of the outcome to these events and its in our devotion to the good we do every day...Our concious choice of doing good over bad to people....thats how we participate. Over coming the evil and doing good. Maybe its our everyday wars?

God is the commmander in Cheif, but if he snapped his fingers and all was over at HIS whim, what would we learn???

you can't have the yin without the yang

Besides the point of those whole thread and having nothing whatsoever to do with biblical knowledge...one can walk down the line between yin and yang.

Thanks for the thoughts everyone, I know it is a silly question but one I have always wondered about and your responses make me think even more. I have a feeling too that we have a role as in what we choose to pick daily good or evil.
Thanks all!

Aways a pleasure

There is no such thing as good or evil. Whether something is good or evil all depends on your wants and needs. for example, someone does something for you that you like, its a good thing, and if someone does something that you dont like, its a bad thing. such as Hitler, him killing off alot of people was "bad", cuz it went against a huge majority of people, but he probably didnt see it as a bad thing.

A great example I like to use is a scene from The Simpsons (for any fans out there lol). An episode where Lisa goes to this place where a dolphin is living in captivity, she decides the right thing to do is free the dolphin, cuz it didnt look happy living in there. So everyone thinks she does the right thing, but then when the dolphin returns to his fellow dolphins, they decide they taken enough abuse from the humans and decide to strike back, ultimately leading to the humans being banished to the ocean lol. A funny example, yes, but it does show that what someone thinks is good from their viewpoint is bad from someone elses viewpoint.

I am not sure what we are supposed to learn if angels and demons fought or not? We don't see it and we don't know it. As far as I know angels doesn't have free will neither so I don't see the point.

Knowledge can be implemented without a process, pretend you are a computer and god has the discs with your software and you will see my point.

If there is good against bad on the earth in the physical sense, then why wouldn't be likely going on in the spiritual sense as well? I think that's all apart of the balance in our world.

There are angels and there are demons. Both sides work for God. However sometimes their goals conflict and I suppose they fight occasionally. I wouldn't say there's a real "war" because that would require two sides. I would say its more like a war for fun because it has nothing to do with their motives, but with God's. The war is here with us, and it is what we do and say that determines the tides of the war.

I like to think the world as the movie Constantine *cough* avatar *cough*
its just one big war of see what side overcomes mankind, all good or all bad, and right now its too close to call

I ment if their intent was to try and influence us in one way or another... Not between themselves.
sorry should have clarified better ...

There are good angels and there are fallen angels I dont know about demons. All angels have free will as do all gods sentient creations. If this was not so, lucifer and one third of the angels could not have chosen to disobey god and rebel against him.
Its not so much about good and evil.

God, the good angels and saved people all accept gods power authority and way of living. Satan, the fallen angels and fallen people think an alternative way is better.
However the proof is in the pudding. Peole ,who follow gods way tend to have better lives all round than those who do not. Societies which follow gods rules would be safer more functional societies than those which do not.

Of course many people are prepared to go to hell in a handbasket so to speak if that means they can do what they want, rather than what god wants.It is this aspect of human nature that satan has always played on from the original temptation.
Good angels serve many purposes. One is protecting us. This protection comes in many forms. It may be relaying messages and warnings from god about dangers in our lives. It may actually be performing physical miracles in our lives to help us, improve our lives or save our lives.

I also believe that if you accept god and the presence of these angels they integrate with your physical person in such a way that the fallen angels and demons( if they exist )cannot get at you, or influence your life/faith beliefs, emotions, as they do with many people who are not protected by the presence of god via his angels.

This does not mean you cant get a blocked artery or schitzophrenia because you are protected. These things have physical causes and very rarely does god act to eliminate the effects of original sin on the world. However, he may warn you of such things, provide you with access to help and guidance of a medical nature , or simply give you the wisdom and strength to acknowledge your disabilities and to deal with them.
In the end it can be as if you do not suffer from them, because your physical and mental state is made as if they did not exist. (In my case via a triple by pass, in a schitzophrenics through disciplined use of the correct medication)
Many people do not see or acknowledge the role/place of god and angels in these everyday occurences, but once your eyes and heart are opened, their physical presence and their power is indisputable. That is why belief is usually a prerequisite for a relationship with god.

Angel and Demon wars are wars of words. They can't kill each other.

Why do you think that? It wouldn't serve his wprd or his purpose to end the war before the appropriate time, the weeding out of both angels and humans is not yet finished.

The idea of good angels fighting evil demons was not in the Holy Torah, the only scripture Jesus acknowledged. This idea of good versus evil spiritual entities is a pagan persian Zoroastrian idea that the early Christians incoroporated into their theology.

In a true monotheism with an almighty creator, the notion that this Creator must have minions to fight evil creatures of his own creation is patently absurd. To the Jews, giving an evil creation the power to challenge god it a terrible blasphemy.

In the same Holy Torah, God claims he is responsible for all evil as well as good, and Satan is simply an obedient servant who cannot harm anyone without God's permission. But this idea was too foreign abstract for the early Christians, (who were mostly converted Greek pagans), so they simply adopted the ideas of Greek daemons, and the Zoroastrian devil dragon in charge of them - who would finally be defeated and punished in the 'end times'.

Dualistic religions like zoroastrianism and christianity invent evil spirits to explain why there is both good and evil in the world. Christianity went so far as to turn the zoroastrian devil-dragon Ahriman into their Satan, even stealing the persian texts almost Verbatim. The original Ahriman dragon fights against the 'good' angels, and the chief angel defeats the dragon, binds him up and casts him into an abyss. Sound familiar? It should, only the names of the dragon and angel were changed to protect the plagiarist.

'Lisa goes to this place where a dolphin is living in captivity, she decides the right thing to do is free the dolphin, cuz it didnt look happy living in there. So everyone thinks she does the right thing, but then when the dolphin returns to his fellow dolphins, they decide they taken enough abuse from the humans and decide to strike back, ultimately leading to the humans being banished to the ocean'------Moral of the story, don't trust Dolphins

Oh no?

Then when Moses warns Israel to not worship other gods, he is not saying that those gods are demons?

Deuteronomy 32:17

They sacrificed to demons that were not God, to gods they had never known,
to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded.



Then you forget, that it was God himself who gave the apostate nations into the hands of Demons (Gods), when they prefered to worship these gods than the creator himself. Yes that's where the worlds pantheons come from.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9

8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

9 For the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.

And as you well know, God created both angels and gods, some of which rejected Gods rule over them. This is even clear in Genesis 6 which you know all about.



He isn't an obedient servant, unless you are stating that angels have no free will, God simply uses all actions to his advantage, even the evil ones. If you want to lay the blame of evil on God you'll also have to say that no-one has free will under Gods creation.
The early christians were more jewish converts than pagan converts, you'll find that many of the Pauline letters are more directed at jewish background christians than pagan ones...



Then you have no knowledge of the shedim in early Israelite theology do you?

You also have sheytans, mazikeen and lilin (liliths offspring) besides the very well known watchers.

You love to say that christianity is actually descended from zoroastrianism, when you have no basis for that statement besides your opinion. Forget what you've heard christianity say, stick to what the bible says.

DC - I will reply in red font

'Jor-el' Oh no?

Then when Moses warns Israel to not worship other gods, he is not saying that those gods are demons?

Deuteronomy 32:17

They sacrificed to demons that were not God, to gods they had never known,
to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded.

DC No, the verse clearly identifies some as true gods, apparently just as real as Yahweh. And the word demons is Greek and not in the original Deuternonomy. In this context the non-gods were probably 'lesser dragons' that had not been assigned a human tribe as Yahweh received, or that their own human tribe died out and they were 'posing' as true gods to received offerings of calves, lambs, liquor, just as Yahweh requested.

Jor-el -Then you forget, that it was God himself who gave the apostate nations into the hands of Demons (Gods), when they prefered to worship these gods than the creator himself. Yes that's where the worlds pantheons come from.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9

8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

9 For the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.

And as you well know, God created both angels and gods, some of which rejected Gods rule over them. This is even clear in Genesis 6 which you know all about.

DC Yes, the authentic Creator El assigned one of these 'dragons'/watchers to each human tribe, which is why the legends of dragons helping early man and becoming his Gods is so universal. According to Deuternomy, El gave Yahweh the Hebrews, who seem to have come from Ur, very near where Yahweh lived and created the Garden of Eden, tricked Adam, etc. in Mesopotamia.

Jor-el - He isn't an obedient servant, unless you are stating that angels have no free will, God simply uses all actions to his advantage, even the evil ones. If you want to lay the blame of evil on God you'll also have to say that no-one has free will under Gods creation.
The early christians were more jewish converts than pagan converts, you'll find that many of the Pauline letters are more directed at jewish background christians than pagan ones...

DC - The serpent is not identified with an 'angel' named Satan in the Torah, and in the Old Testament, any creature called a Satan does exactly what Yahweh tells it to do. This Satan is probably a lesser dragon/seraph and not a humanoid angel.
Then you have no knowledge of the shedim in early Israelite theology do you?

You also have sheytans, mazikeen and lilin (liliths offspring) besides the very well known watchers.

You love to say that christianity is actually descended from zoroastrianism, when you have no basis for that statement besides your opinion. Forget what you've heard christianity say, stick to what the bible says.

DC - Lillith apparently goes back to the Adapa and the Southwind story which is the origin of Genesis. Adam is the one who breaks her wing and supposedly this is why she has animositiy against the offspring of Adam. After centuries of retelling this story, she becomes Adam's first wife, and the wings are forgotten. She is the "Southwind" and most likely a 'lesser dragon', like the Biblical satan. What we call demons today, and what may have been believed in by the early hebrews as 'demon like entitities', may have been the spirits/ghosts of wicked humans.

The Basis of Christianity's plagiarism of Zoroastrianism comes from the same dualistic notions of a good god fighting an evil dragon. Christianity simply changed the dragons name from Ahriman to Satan, but the same story of the final battle in Revelation is virtually identical to the Zoroastrian version. Great war in heaven, dragons and his angels fight the good angels, chief good angel defeats dragon, binds him and casts him in an abyss, after many years dragon escapes, fights again and then put into the lake of fire. Do you really think this is a coincidence? Zoroastrianism is much older, and the Jews returned from Babylon with many of its ideas.

That movie with John Travolta in it called "Michael" was absoloutly beautiful. You know the one about the angel?

Awesome thread Sandee.

Where are these demons and Angels?

Would it be to far out there to say , I believe that our deceased relitives are apart of our subconcious, and that is who is actually looking out for us??

the original definition of demon is deamon meaning deity. as we know deity means god.

DC, every time I talk to you it's like watching reruns of V.

You must really think some of us sleep on the job... reference for the "Hebrew" word "demons" in Deuteronomy 32:17, which I previously quoted, it makes me wonder what bible you use...

Reference for Demons: HERE



According to Deuteronomy 32:8-9 which I again quoted previously, it seems the opposite is true, Yahweh, gave the nations to the gods (demons) for their apostacy and kept Israel as his portion. Don't you know how to read or what? The bible says one thing and you come up with another.



I never said he was, but according to Ancient Israelite and canaanite mythology, his name was "Helel son of the dawn" also known as "Helel the shining one". Did I mention humanoid angels anywhere in my post?



Are you going to tell me that Lilith was a recent invention? or was it something the ancient Israelites believed in? I can prove the latter.It is a clear demonstration that the ancient israelites clearly believed in demons, as all ancient cultures did.

As for Zoroastrianism, suffice to say as any well informed christian will tell you that Christianity is not a dualistic religion.. Most of the imagery by the way which you exemplify actually comes from the Old Testament. Oh but I get it, Zoroastrianism is a big influence on the OT as well, so there you have it, it must be Zoroastrianism that is the basis of all Judeo christian religion, how fortunate for you and your Dragons.

Okay, I am in red font again.

quote 'Jor-el' DC, every time I talk to you it's like watching reruns of V.

DC Actually, I have never believed the watchers/seraphim were humanoid reptilians in form. This idea of Heisser's contradicts the world wide dragon legends that suggests these are the original Watchers.

'J - You must really think some of us sleep on the job... reference for the "Hebrew" word "demons" in Deuteronomy 32:17, which I previously quoted, it makes me wonder what bible you use...

Reference for Demons: HERE

DC Cow and sheep-eating watcher dragons exactly like Yahweh that are gods until renamed demons after exposure to zoroastrianism are not the same thing as the invisible greek spirits that Chirsitanity would call demons.

J - According to Deuteronomy 32:8-9 which I again quoted previously, it seems the opposite is true, Yahweh, gave the nations to the gods (demons) for their apostacy and kept Israel as his portion. Don't you know how to read or what? The bible says one thing and you come up with another.

DC No, we know what it really means becasue of the parallels with Canannite Theology. The 'Most High" is El, not Yahweh, who is Yaw, though interestingly, even the Cannanite hymns state that Yam/Yaw was El's favorite. El the Creator assinged one of these creatures to every human culture just as the bible acknowledges.
these other Gods do not become 'demons' until Persian Zoroastrianism convinced the Jews that there was only ONE God. So Yahweh and El were morphed into a single deity, and the rest of the old dragon gods (like Yahweh), were now called 'demons', though each still in charge of a human culture. And if all of these other cultures were so evil and ruled by demons, why should they be more prosperous than the Israelites. The unique thing about the Jews, is that they are nearly the only truly ancient culture that still worship their original 'Watcher dragon', though he was morphed into the creator God El.

J - I never said he was, but according to Ancient Israelite and canaanite mythology, his name was "Helel son of the dawn" also known as "Helel the shining one". Did I mention humanoid angels anywhere in my post?

DC - Surely you must know that the infamous 'lucifer' passages are believed by most scholars now to be referring to two very real human enemies of the Hebrews, the King of 'Babylon and the Prince of Tyre, not any imaginary demon. This came about by translations by people who really did not understand the Hebrew.


J - Are you going to tell me that Lilith was a recent invention? or was it something the ancient Israelites believed in? I can prove the latter.It is a clear demonstration that the ancient israelites clearly believed in demons, as all ancient cultures did.

DC - No, as I said (and as scholars suggest), Lillith may be the Southwind creature in the original Genesis story of the Sumerians, and may have indeed continued to prey on the offspring of 'Adam' (the Hebrews). I think it more likely she is simply another 'watcher' dragon rather than a pagan greek supenatural spirit demon, becasue Adam broke here physical wing, and these creatures eat physical food (usually calves, sheep, and birds) both in Sumerian lore and the Bible (offerings to Yahweh and Ba'al). I won't get into the first born sons and Midainite virgins offered to Yahweh in the Bible.


J - As for Zoroastrianism, suffice to say as any well informed christian will tell you that Christianity is not a dualistic religion.. Most of the imagery by the way which you exemplify actually comes from the Old Testament. Oh but I get it, Zoroastrianism is a big influence on the OT as well, so there you have it, it must be Zoroastrianism that is the basis of all Judeo christian religion, how fortunate for you and your Dragons.

DC - of course Christians will tell you that, but the facts speak for themselves. The 'satan' who is only an obedient assistant of Yahweh in the Torah (who cannot harm anyone without God's permission as we see in Job), is suddenly transformed into a real opponent to God who causes misery from thousands of years until finally defeated in an Apocolyptic battle. These ideas come from Zoroastrianism, NOT from original, pre captivity Judaism.

There are good and Bad spirits, calling a relatively Bad one a demon is Just giving a spirit a name. Who one calls an Angel, may just be a spirit who has run thhe gammut of Existance, and learned by and through experience the diferance between Good and bad, choosing Good as its Life, or Way, only Through making mistakes and seeing Bad can one choose good, turning all his misdeeds in to learned lessons, which can help and benifit others and self.

Those who have done bad and chosen good can smell evil a Mile away, From experience.

This makes Judge not have alot of significance.

Love Omnaka

again ... God created evil as much as anything else ..... to serve a purpose.

Satan never fell. Satan is still an angel and can only do as God allows. lucifer is not Satan nor the devil. but reference to a couple of kings. one of which being the king of tyre.

anything else proves one doesn't know the bible but instead believes some myth that has been made up.

( like the bible itself)

"The Basis of Christianity's plagiarism of Zoroastrianism comes from the same dualistic notions of a good god fighting an evil dragon. Christianity simply changed the dragons name from Ahriman to Satan, but the same story of the final battle in Revelation is virtually identical to the Zoroastrian version. Great war in heaven, dragons and his angels fight the good angels, chief good angel defeats dragon, binds him and casts him in an abyss, after many years dragon escapes, fights again and then put into the lake of fire. Do you really think this is a coincidence? Zoroastrianism is much older, and the Jews returned from Babylon with many of its ideas."

........I am actually inclined to agree with Draconic Chronicler here. To me it is obvious this ancient religion did have an influence on the Israelites. They were obviously aware of it. It is the same region, after all. In 586 BCE it is clear they were living amidst the Persians, and because they no longer had their temple in exile, some of their practices changed. As he said, there are many parallells between the two religions. Looking at it in a broader sense, even, in the context of history AS A WHOLE, most cultures do become influenced by those that they are surrounded by. Cultural integration and infusion of beliefs and practices typically take place. I think it would be a gross insight to say there was no influence there.

Joseph Campbell, The Hero with a thousand faces:

"Persian belief was reorganized by the prophet Zarathushtra according to a strict dualism of good and evil principles, light and dark, angels and devils. This crisis profoundly affected not only the Persians, but also the subject Hebrew beliefs, and thereby (centuries later) Christianity."


To the OP I think there is a battle between angels and demons, but only as a sort of positive and negative influence on the material plane, AS IT PERTAINS TO US, i.e. that angels and demons, yes, can influence our actions. Think of how a parasite attaches itself to a host. Such is the same with the influence of demons. The parasite (demon) finds a host attracted to our own misdeeds, or, more accurately our karma. Karma created by negative action would attract and draw in more negative influences; demons. The reverse would be true of angels. I believe everyone has personal spirit guides, or guardian angels. They battle for YOUR SPIRIT. That is the battle, really. Not a literal war between the two. That war is already over, the Christ has ended that; and in no way is there a yin and yang dualist nature, or more relevantly, two equal gods, one good, the other bad. Yes, I believe in the Zoroastrian influence, but the Israelites knew where to draw the line. To me, it is idiotic to think of a good and evil god, because were that true, then essentially what you have is the chaos theory in a spiritual package. Thought is the force behind matter. And thought, in its essence is pure and good, as is the nature of God. So evil, then, merely is a by-product of what is good, an absence, a contrary position, largely the result of free will. Evil is not an entity unto itself, but rather, a turning away from what is good (God). Therefore, evil, cannnot, nor will ever, be able to defeat the First.

The battleground, then, is for the human soul, see? We can move towards or away from God.......and these entities are drawn to these movements. And you have to think of the various planes of existence in the form of layers. Layer one is the material plane, but surrounding it, enveloping it really, is the first or lowest of the spiritual realm. It is in this realm closest to the material plane that angels and demons wage war for the souls of man. It is also the plane where ghosts exist, and people who have had OBE's often see. It is the first realm we will see when we die. Angels and demons are not a part of it, but go to it, to be involved WITH US. Hence the Watchers and like concepts.

The battle between good and evil has always been a subject of interest to me. I agree that there is a battle of sorts, however I do not see it as conflict that puts the eternal soul at risk.

The God of unconditional love does not set conditions for love. The human is either loved without condition or he/she is not. So if the war is not for the souls of man than what exactly is going on. The concept that evil is merely a by-product of somrthing good, a contrary position largely the result of free will, then this becomes close to what I see as the reality.

What if the battle is actually for the minds of man - their reality perceptions? What is life were kind of like an energy game for awareness potentials? The material plane is the human perception plane. When the essence of the human can be seen as divine, the game takes on another dimension of reality where human redemption was never necessary.

John