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So, do we have people here who love to tell others about their Buddhist beliefs and practices.


I want to hear from them about Buddhist enlightenment, because it is an unexplained mystery to myself, to see whether I can penetrate into its mystery.



So that I can classify it in accordance to my division of unexplained mysteries into:

[ Not in any order of importance: ]

• entertainment
• useful to avoid for being harmful
• useful to cultivate for being helpful

[ See: What is a mystery and what is an explanation. ]



Thanks to anyone coming forward to enlightenment me on Buddhist enlightenment.



oslove

Look at the forum over here http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/ (I think you may have to register to get further than the newbie board)

Buddhism is a practical religion (if you can call it that). According to the sutras, you will be able to see your past lives once you reach the fourth level of dhyana (meditation). Here is some wisdom from the Buddha http://youtube.com/watch?v=LTsb-woP3jI

Buddhism is also a great compassionate way of life, even to other species besides Homo Sapiens.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dJFzsyvszZQ

Buddhist websites do not tolerate any probing of their beliefs and practices in a critical manner, just like all websites given to a particular life and world view.


They just want to explain to visitors and members what their beliefs and practices are, simply accept them and don't inquire any further about any questionable aspects or details in their beliefs and practices.


Just perhaps there are people here knowledgeable with Buddhism and even adherents of Buddhist beliefs and practices, but are also open-minded to admit a demanding examination of their beliefs and practices, possessed of the attitude that beliefs in a particular life and world view is one thing but getting to the facts is another, and one's beliefs should not close one's mind to a demanding examination of the same beliefs in the light of reason.


So, can we have some inputs about Buddhist enlightenment which is the raison d'etre of Buddhism? just as salvation in the Kingdom of God is the big deal in Christianity.



oslove

I can understand that picking apart someones religion takes away from the magic in it. Guess I can't say anything we all here do it......

Try these stories :
http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/zenindex.html
http://www-usr.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/zenstory.html




About enlightenment : there was a young man who searched for it all over the world, and did not found it. He reached a river and he saw an old man over the river. He asked him : "Hey how can I get on the other side of this river?" The old man said "You are on the other side"

About practices and rituals, you will find a story about a cat which was tied up by the monks because it disturbed the prayer. After the cat died, the monks found another cat to tie up, then hundreds of years later scholars were trying to explain the significance of tying up a cat during prayer
Try meditation, stay in a "lotus" position, even use a wall to gain some support if you want, then start relaxing every part of your body, from your toes up, then try to think about nothing. If a thought appears, do not get upset because it appeared, observe it and let it pass

And a quote from Buddha, hope all this helps :

I used to be heavily involved in Buddhism for years during my "spiritual quest phase."
During all this time, I never met a so-called "enlightened" person. This led me to believe that Bodhi (enlightenment) doesn't occur anymore or only occurs only rarely. In other words, IMO we are in the era apparently forecast by Buddha himself: "the decline of the Dharma (teaching)"

But I think there's another side to that coin. I believe we live in an "enlightened age" with all our advances in psychiatry/psychology, medicine, science, etc. It may be sad to say, but I don't think that there is a need for a traditionally-interpreted Buddhism anymore, especially Theravada, unless you are of a particular culture which upholds the Buddhist tradition.

Just my two cents.

Good man, pai mei, here are the narratives you gave which I will comment on, but right away I can't see what is their relevance to my quest for any account that makes sense of what exactly is Buddhist enlightenment, that Buddhists are supposed to devote their life and years to the attainment of.



This is a very improbable event unless the thief is exceptionally stupid as to not know that the monk has nothing worth stealing; as for the monk, he is not as smart as the ants and the bees and the animals everywhere who know that life is for the living of and the reproducing of, and to have missed that or to deprive oneself of this end is to frustrate altogether the gift wherever or whatever or whomever it came from.



What's so enlightening about the words of the butcher meat vendor that is not known by every simple housewife, who has to go to market and shop for the best meat on the least price? and knows that every merchant is a liar and a cheat, but you still have to buy meat and bring home meat for your husband and children?

So, you have got to become a Zen monk to appreciate that kind of an enlightenment?



The old man is simply and purely nonsensical, and owing to his senile imbecility cannot ever grasp that people have to cross to the other side of a river for many very crucial purposes, like if you have to escape from pursuing murderous thieves bent on killing you to steal whatever you have on your body, starting with your clothes and shoes.



Those scholars who invest hours and days and years and whole life to grasp the importance of tying a cat during their prayer, they must have other better things to do, like planting rice and eating from their labor.

About meditation, perhaps they might come to the idea that sweeping streets and seeing to their repair, from the desire to keep them viable to the community, that is the best thing to do for fellowmen, than meditating: which profits no one, not even themselves except to kill or slaughter time -- anyway they have nothing better to do than meditating their hours, days, years, and life away, on the self-congratulation that they are doing something so significant with their lives.


Of course Buddha exempts himself from such a prescription he recites to others, because he obviously intends that these latters will take him for their master, but not other itinerary preachers who are also into recruiting followers.

----------------

Well, if Buddhist enlightenment consists in the acceptance and practice of such kinds of attitudes as portrayed in the above anecdotes, then I wonder how ever will mankind get to live as to attain happiness by keeping healthy and enjoying liberty and maintaining equality and fraternity among fellowmen.

-----------------

Humor is my kind of enlightenment in observing human behavior and actuation.



oslove

Yes, of course all religions require some amount of faith. But as I mentioned, at least the Buddhists provide a pragmatic method of discovering their truths. Beyond that, I know of no other religion whose practice has such beneficial effects and has been incorporated into mainstream physical and mental health university studies. http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/buddhiststudi...ologyminor.html

I am not a Buddhist I am just a student of man, an anthropologist if you will. Buddhist venerables will tell you that it is a simple religion. Enlightenment is not something to attain. Enlightenment is not something to get. That is a western way of thinking, moulded I suspect by the school system.

Life is NOT a journey. http://youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4



If you want a summary of Buddhist teachings I would recommend the Diamond Sutra.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-86...Nn9Bw&hl=en

The above link is the most user friendly talk on the Diamond Sutra I have heard.

I don't know why this didn't dawn on me before but Buddism is not considered a religion but a way of life.

About meditation it's true, you must try to live in the present moment all the time not just when meditating. I myself never meditated much, I was at a Zen school for a time but they had some rituals and I am against any rituals so I just try to be "right here and now" all day
Yes I too view Buddhism as a way of life not a religion. I do not see Buddha as a "God", just an enlightened man

Buddha said that you should not listen even to him, just think for yourself. Now will you not think for yourself because someone else said it ? What if he did not say it ? I am not afraid of doing what "the crowd" does, if I thought about it I do not care who does it or not, trying to always do something different is pointless. If what I want is what some others want and do, not my fault, and I am not going to stop because of them

About the importance of thinking for yourself :


About those stories : if Ryokan wanted to live that way let him be, he is not hurting anyone. I myself say that it's better to be a Buddhist in society not on a mountain but that is just what I say. Who knows maybe Ryokan did stay there for a time then came back to the world ? I think that the meaning of that story is that there is no way he could give the thief the joy of watching the moon. The thief could only be as happy as Ryokan and enjoy the moon if he changed himself. I think it's the same thing about enlightenment.
The second story , it's not only about the meat vendor, it's about everything, what I understood from it is to stop searching for the perfect "whatever item or experience or anything you want", everything is best right here and now

The third story, that man was searching for enlightenment so what I understood is : "stop searching, the best place is right where you are". About thieves and killers look here a saying against fear: "Never take life seriously, nobody gets out alive anyway". Of course even if I would want to be a brave person I will not know what I will do until I would be put in a dangerous situation, but I don't worry very much, I say not to pay attention to these things, if you did things you hate you did, or will do sometime in the future, accept them, and try to improve, do not become ashamed, or afraid or with a feeling of guilt

Hmm, the above is interesting, simplified and common amongst most world religions. He is simply saying, dont follow traditions simply based on blind faith, just because they were held in honour of somone or something, its not always the truth.

Dont believe something because its a populist view, dont put your faith in sages or people of the past, forefather, ancestors, sages etc. Dont believe what you yourself have imagined and then persuade yourself that it was god, jesus, buhdda, muhammed, etc. I like this one, dont believe anything on the sole authority of your priests and masters, basically saying what they tell you, you should verify for yourself, dont just believe them blindly. After what you have tested, verified and find to reasonable, logical then conform your conduct according to it.

Its amazing that this type of message is in almost all world religions, yet, we have people that follow traditions, and cultural practises, in honour of ancestors and people of old, It tells you to not take the word of your masters for granted, check it out, test them and verify them. It says dont follow and believe in your whims and fanciful imagination and then dont presuade yourself to say its from a god, or jesus etc. Dont follow the old sages, forefathers and ancestors, its basically telling you to investigate and seek the truth yourself, verify what you find out and hear, and only conform to that which makes sense, is reasonable and logical. Yet what you find within bhuddism, is the exact opposite of the above teaching and in other religions, most followers, tend not follow what they are supposed to, the scripture and the best example in that religion, be it bhudda, jesus, muhammed etc.

You're absolutely right. Buddhism is only a teaching.

I'm familiar with the quote.
The bolded text is the only positive statement out of the whole thing.
It pretty much implies a trial-and-error approach which seekers normally engage in. So it appears a large part of Buddha's teaching was directed towards seekers.

But if this were true, then how could there be a Buddhist tradition, which there obviously is?
And might this approach not lead the seeker away from Buddhism, instead of towards it? (Which is what happened to me.)

For me, it was like the "parable of the raft."
Buddhism is like a raft which gets you to the "other shore." (Some say that means "Nirvana", but I'm not so sure about that.) If a person used the raft to get to the other shore, would he then carry it around with him on the other side? The answer was: Of course not. He'd leave it.

In my case, Buddhism definitely helped me get to the place where I needed to be, but then I had to leave it behind, like I left behind high school books when I graduated. But I also certainly didn't find "Bodhi" or the "end of suffering."

I think it is a basic error to believe that in your lifetime you would see an enlightened person. The occurance is so rare that it is celebrated and enshrined within the Buddhist temples. I would not judge the Buddhist beliefs on that standard.

I have a good friend, Kalsang Nima, who is a Bon Buddhist monk in Nepal. We exchange messages regularly and discuss themes concerning spiritualism and our role as entities struggling to survive within a basically false reality system. He has achieved this level of existence and I have visited him and seen the "pearls" of the departed enlightened ones. It is an experience whether its meaning is accepted or not.

Well, so far I have not yet really from the messages already posted here come to have any solid concept of what is Buddhist enlightenment.

Perhaps if I ask some questions of people here who are knowledgeable with Buddhism or even practitioners and students of Buddhism, they might be more tangibly concrete in relaying what they know about Buddhist enlightenment.


First question is:

Do you know that Buddhist enlightenment is something to attain or achieve or arrive at by acts of your mind and heart and body, similar to Christian salvation for Christians, namely: something to accomplish?

Then:

On the basis of this comparison and assuming that for being if it be so you are in a Christian culture and society you know what is Christian salvation, what are you supposed to feel like when you have reached enlightenment?

For Christians when they have reached ascertainment of salvation, as with having been born again by taking Jesus as one's personal lord and savior, they Christians are confident that they are saved: meaning if and when they should die right away or later at the end of a normal life span, they will get to heaven and everything will be fine: no more struggle to make a living, it's all wonderful great feeling, yes, feeling, for being in the presence of God, and no more hunger, pain, sorrow, neither flies or mosquitoes to trouble you.

Furthermore:

while you are in an enlightened state what are you supposed to be convinced about as to the meaning and purpose of life?

In the case of Christians who are saved and know it, they are convinced that the meaning and purpose of life is to know God, to love God, and to serve God in life and be united to Him after this life on death, and yes coming back in the Resurrection of the Dead at the end of the world, to live happily ever after in the Kingship of Jesus Christ under the Fatherhood of God, forever and ever.

Briefly:

What kind of a shall we say psychological target a Buddhist is supposed to hit on coming to enlightenment?

What are you sure about in regard to life’s meaning and purpose on enlightenment?

When you die in enlightenment where do you get to or what will happen to you?


Hope guys here knowledgeable with Buddhism or even converts to Buddhism and now adept students of Buddhism, hope you guys can enlighten me.


oslove

It's because none of us have it yet, so we don't have a clue.






<blowing the dust off my memories>


Acts of mind and body produce karma/kamma. Simply put, karma is either "good" or "bad" and it inevitably leads to future rebirths (i.e it essentially perpetuates the human race.) The karma resulting from meditative practices, morality, faith, etc. is said to lead to a state (nibbana/nirvana/samadhi) where one is receptive to Bodhi. Such a receptive state is the only thing that a person can achieve by his own efforts. But Bodhi itself can never be "produced" by human activity, because it would create karma and hence rebirths. By implication, Bodhi is a state of grace: You don't reach it, it reaches you.

This may not be a popular point of view with some traditional-leaning Buddhists, but "nibbana" (nirvana) might be an individual thing where you've reached the extent of the Dharma (teaching) for yourself.

Oslove, there is no meaning or sense of life, just be happy Thre is no goal, no steps to take, no instructions : do this and that and be enlightened.Some Zen stories from the links I gave you have no real answers, I think they are made that way to make people realize that not everything is clear, or measurable, enjoy life as it is, stop trying to make a sense of it :


Enlightenment cannot really be explained :


What happens after death with an enlightened person ? :

This is my view also. After death there could be reincarnation, nirvana, hell, heaven, nothing, whatever. I don;t know, and there is no point in worrying

This is my view also. After death there could be reincarnation, nirvana, hell, heaven, nothing, whatever. I don;t know, and there is no point in worrying

Except that you are still after having invested so much I imagine time and labor into making sense of life and the world with Zen, you are still investing more time and labor in Zen.

Right away I can say that you are telling yourself that you don't care, that you are what Christians call possessed of holy indifference -- whether I live or die, as someone said in the New Testament, something like that, it's all the same for me because for me to live is Christ and to die is gain (whatever those words mean, but they do in a way impart a ground for the speaker to assure himself that he is at peace and not afraid of anything, just like you).


Suppose we work together to figure out exactly what those Zen monks are all about in their sangha, or monastery as we call such places in the Christian West.


One way of examination is to observe what they enjoy for leading a sangha life among themselves: without wife and children, then those are the things whether they deny it or not, are advantages they enjoy for taking up a Zen monastic existence.


In your case, you are I want to assume not living in a Zen sangha but in the humdrum world of everyman, making a living, running a family and home, etc.

So, your advantage in taking up with Zen or Buddhism of your peculiar school is... what?

Perhaps to read quizzical narratives that make you feel that everything is so complicated and beyond your mental analysis. or so pointless for pursuing with dedication like people who do with being healthy and in a way wealthy i.e. financially secure, and not having to meet any disaster as a tsunami or a katrina in your residential location.


I submit that for you, Zen or your peculiar school of Buddhism does work some advantages or usefulness pluses for you, most fundamentally to put you in a state of what I call equanimity.


And then what else...?

What about then you just go and take up life in the Zen sangha and thus not only mentally do you enjoy equanimity, but also in physical circumstances of your abode and the presence of fellow Zen enthusiasts -- reading and thinking out more of such quizzical and puzzling narratives whereby ideas and situations are juxtaposed which will take a truly dedicated and keen mind to dissect, and to arrive at a good presentation as to the real mood that the narratives are intended to stir up in the heart and mind of their readers, who are disposed to read into them, for they are already in quest of such a mood, which to my observation is a mentality of surrender to the hopelessness of life complex priorities and biological realities.



Coming back to the advantages of people who live the monastic life in a sangha or monastic community, without wife and children and no livelihood undertaking to provide for each one himself and his family: a roof, and food for the table, and very important also, health or medical insurance, what is the most conspicuous advantage of life in a Zen or Buddhist monastery?

Have I said it already?

The number 1 advantage is: no longer to have to live by the sweat of one's brows and the weariness of one's limbs -- and at the same time to feel oneself so superior to the peasants and the office workers and the salesgirls everyday burdened with monotonous drudgeries.


Think about that.



oslove

No I do not invest much work in my study of Zen and Buddhism. I do it because I am interested, I want to know what's going on, who am I , what's all this, questions I think everyone asks. And because I am interested, I do not see it as "work". When I started asking these questions to others and then to myself, I did not even knew about Buddhism, now I am here, maybe later I will find something else, who knows

I understand the monks are "doing it wrong". Buddhism should be practiced in the world, and there are a few masters who taught and did just that. I agree with that.
Not all Zen Stories are riddles with no answer.
Some quotes :

I thought you are from the Far East, but I find in your profile that you are from Romania.

Is Buddhism and the Zen school your most favored religion among say Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism, and also Hinduism?


That is interesting that you are a first generation Romanian to have grown up in a non-communist and thus atheistic(?) regime (now no longer a communist and atheistic and dictatorial one party regime country).

You are also the first admirer of Zen and Buddhism in general I have met in the web, that is not 'fanatically' defensive of Buddhism for having converted to it in a way, specially having been introduced to its meditation method.

You see, with atheists of America, Australia, and Western Europe like United Kingdom, but specially with US Americans, once they get to become 'enamored' of Buddhism, there is no way you can say anything against it without incurring their vociferous hostility.


Tell me, what does Zen Buddhism promise you in life and after life?



oslove

Bingo! Exactly what I have noticed.
That's one of the big reasons I left it, plus the fact that I felt it wasn't good for me any longer.

The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism.

Albert Einstein


http://myanalyses.com/einstein.html

Before 1990 the communists fought against religion. They destroyed churches and imprisoned priests, most of this stuff happened in 1950-1960 after the Russians brought us communism. But most of the churches survived and people were allowed to go to church.

The religion here in Romania is Christian Orthodox, 90 % of people say there are Christian, if that would be true then Romania would be heaven on earth
But they say it only because they fear what others might think about them if they declare something else, or because they fear hell and want to go to heaven, or because they really think they can be Christian and capitalist

For your question, I expect nothing from Zen Buddhism in life or after life. There is nothing to expect, there is no "written contract" with the Universe promising us a "good life" and Heaven after. We just appeared here, we are in fact everything experiencing itself. So be happy, love each other, bla bla bla This is what I don't like about most religions, they make people fear hell and promise them heaven, I must say I was also indoctrinated with this as a child , and this is the worse thing you could teach to a child
If someone pretending to be a "teacher" says "be afraid" , stop listening to him. A real teacher does not want his pupils to do stuff out of fear.

why are people so concerned about the after life. You should enjoy life as it is. Spread peace and love rather than trying to convert everyone else.

Your religion doesn't effect if you go to a hevean. Its if your a good person. People who look badly at others for their beliefs are being discriminatory and are anything but a good person.

I have a theory why Americans who converted to Buddhism are so defensive as to be hostilely warlike against any criticism of Buddhism.

They are people who are by their genes already disposed to be fanatical, so that when they have become disillusioned with their traditional Christianity and turned atheists they are also fanatical atheists, and when they find in Buddhism that it is (supposedly) atheistic, they embrace it and also are true to their genes, fanatical about it, so it is congenital that they can't hear anything critical about it.



Anyway, so far I have not met any such American Buddhists here; but we should not congratulate ourselves prematurely. Just for a comic relief, however.



oslove

Buddhism is a good religion, but don't take it so seriously as to imagine that it does not have any of the shortcomings present in the monotheistic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, the socalled Abrahamic faiths.

It is an invention of man and just like it's inventor, man, it has all the warts of human invention.


About that quote from Einstein in commendation of Buddhism, that is so far to date in default of authentication from scholars of Einstein's written and spoken words.

See:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Misattributed
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Albert_E...tein_quotations

Please forgive my vanity, but I am one of the very first to have researched carefully the authenticity of words from supposedly the pen or the lips of Einstein in endorsement of Buddhism, and concluded that they are inventions of interested parties who want to show that Buddhism is a scientific religion or in consonance with modern science.


My interest in Buddhism was stirred up when I came upon so much encomiums from Western ex-Christians or Judaists (religious Jews) praising Buddhism to the highest heavens, and can't see much less hear anything critical about it.


oslove

For your question, I expect nothing from Zen Buddhism in life or after life. There is nothing to expect, there is no "written contract" with the Universe promising us a "good life" and Heaven after.

That is interesting. We are now in the history of mankind when people like you and also in a way like myself take up religion like we take up with a couture, a coiffure, or a cuisine, without having to pay it homage as to enslave ourselves.


If religion is useful as clothing, hairstyle, and table fare are, yet like couture, coiffure, and cuisine, it is optional as regards its veneer.



oslove

I am concerned about life after death in order to return to life, because there are so many things to enjoy and to know about, and so far what I know about death is that you don't exist anymore on death, as to live the way we do now and can improve our existence.

So, taking up with a religion that teaches life or existence post the grave, that is a consoling world-view.


Now science is trying to lengthen our days to make them longer and longer and better and better. That is to the praise of science.



I am willing to offer myself as an experiment in cloning, because then when I come back as a clone of myself, I can always look up my records of previous life from government offices, schools, and private establishments, and from the memory of still extant family members and friends, and resume my existence from that point onward.



oslove

If you really want to understand Buddhism, you have to know that Buddhism today is not what Buddha had in mind. Buddha did not believe in organized religion for everyone. He knew that everyone was different and therefore their individual religion should be different. Buddha did not believe in ceremonies or tradition. He wanted our religion to be in our hearts in a way that we could find peace and guidance on our own.

"Therefore, be ye lamps unto yourselves, be a refuge to yourselves.
Hold fast to Truth as a lamp; hold fast to the truth as a refuge.
Look not for a refuge in anyone beside yourselves. And those,
who shall be a lamp unto themselves, shall betake themselves to
no external refuge, but holding fast to the Truth as their lamp,
and holding fast to the Truth as their refuge, they shall
reach the topmost height." Buddha

Buddhism as Buddha intended it, is what ever you want it to be. Live your life with compassion and never stop seeking knowledge. A Buddhist does not convert others. Others follow by the example set by other Buddhists.

I saw this quote once in a scientific journal (Germany) for scientists . The article was ironically about spirituality.


Einstein was an Agnostic as far as I'm aware .No worries, I don't take Buddhism too seriously, because I'm an Agnostic, but thanks anyways.

[moved to a new thread; apologies to the OP]

Coming back to Buddhist enlightenment.


If I may talk in a less reverential manner but no less to the point.


Isn't enlightenment the big deal in all those religions or world-views of a pretentiously transcendental orientation, like Buddhism, from the land of the Hindi, namely, the Indian subcontinent below China?


Just as making love with a woman the big deal with courting a woman, if you don't succeed there -- not bringing in here love and morality though, so don't judge or don't bring in love and right or wrong in motivation, we are talking here about the real score, even animals know that even though without our intelligence but not possessed of our lack of self-honesty -- if you don't succeed there you have failed.


So, when you buy into Buddhism and when you have bought into Buddhism and use it as when you have bought a car and use it, how does it make your life better? in any way, at all?



While you are on the way to enlightenment and when you if ever get to it and are sure that you are into it?


Suppose you guys who are docile to a Buddhist master or mentor or lecturer or call them preachers -- and that is what they are, even though they claim not to be into proselytizing, etc.

Suppose you tell us how and where and when and in what things your life has gotten better in your own self-examination? while you are still living and breathing easily, that is.



oslove

There is this attempt to extract the true teaching of Buddha as opposed to mistaken for teachings of Buddha, on the part of today's admirers and practitioners of Buddhism.

Someone here says that Buddha was not into driving people to live in seclusion from society, to take up residence in the sangha, read that monastery; his real teaching is that people should practice his exhortations in the world, in society, not away and separated from society, from home, family, friends, and in brief from human settlement.

And then when it comes to the non-self, you have so many interpretations and explanations of what really the Buddha taught.


All such attempts to extract the real teaching of Buddha during his preaching years are all fallacious, because they cannot convince anyone of the contrary or of a different persuasion -- therein lies the real fallacy in terms of the psychology of conviction.


What I would like to remind or to bring to the enlightenment of minds avidly following Buddha, of course the real genuine true authentic Buddha in their own conviction, is that:

Instead of insisting and trying to prove that Buddha actually during his long years of preachment truly teaches this or that instead of that or this, proceed in the following manner:

1. Make a list of his priorities and draft them in abstract language as principles to be adhered to, when you strip his words of their concrete details of humdrum daily routines like meals and going to the bathroom,

2. Then formulate what he should be teaching today in the light of those principles of the utmost priority from his preachment during his living years some 2400 years back.

Otherwise it is a waste of time and labor arguing endlessly on what the true teachings of the Buddha are, like to repair to solitary life in a sangha or to stick put in society.


If you ask me, he had only one priority in his preachment:

This life is not worth any crap except to do merits for undoing your bad karma, and once you have completely undone your bad karma you will get into the ultimate void, ie., non-existence: so, from non-self to non-existence, that is the big deal in Buddhism.

You have to fashion the more concrete teachings of Buddha if he were around today in the light of his one ultimate priority above described.



oslove

If you truly want to learn about Buddhism and be able to UNDERSTAND it I highly suggestion studying Hinduism first. Then move on to Buddhism in it's original form. Then go out and learn some of the Theravada and Mayana branches. Most importantly know how and why they are different. You can not truly understand Buddhism unless you do this. Good luck my friend.

Before enlightment chop wood carry water, after enlightment chop wood carry water. When I found Buddhism I wanted all the knowledge it provided and I searched and stumbled on someone I believe very wise and who I had aspired to be who told me "nothing and everything are the same, nothing is everything when you can truly see and understand that apart from its iroiny than you are well on your way." One day while sitting in meditation I saw it but the magic of it was the realization that there is no realization. I don't believe there is any understanding of it because once you realize you understand you realize you don't...it seems a tragic but yet lovely iroiny.

There are alot of books to be read. If you want to know you'll find what you are searching for.

If you truly want to learn about Buddhism and be able to UNDERSTAND it...

The fact that Buddhism is riven by division and rival factionalism, there is very little common understanding among all them groups.

Before enlightment chop wood carry water, after enlightment chop wood carry water. When I found Buddhism I wanted all the knowledge it provided and I searched and stumbled on someone I believe very wise...

Has anyone modern Buddhist ever done an investigative study of what Buddha the Enlightened One managed for a latrine and anal wipe?


These were the things he should have attended to before working for enlightenment whatever.



oslove

Hello Oslove,

Enlighten you to enlightenment, eh? That is a pretty tall order. Probably the best explanation that words can provide is "seeing the true nature of reality". Buddhist practice is not about scriptures, pithy sayings, or faith. It's about practice. Actively cultivating Wisdom (prajna), Ethics (sila), and Concentration (samadhi).



This is somewhat true. There are many differences between the various schools, sects, and lineages and this is a source of some rivalry and dissention among practitioners. However, we all agree on the core of the Buddha-dharma, the four noble truths, the noble eight-fold path and dependent origination. Karma and Rebirth (rebirth not reincarnation) on the other hand...

People are people and as such can easily fall to what are known as the three poisons (greed, ignorance, and hatred).



Don't know why this would be necessary. Gautama Buddha was just a human being, so he would have wiped his *** like any other human in India 2500 years ago.