I have been thinking about something and want to see what others think about it. I strive to be the best person I can be, everyday. I try to do what is right, in any situation, especially when the right thing is the harder thing to do. I care for others, put others needs before my own, and do many things in my life that make my life much harder. I do this because I think it is the correct way to live my life, not because I think it is going to earn me some reward after I die.

I am not sure what I believe, I guess I would say I am agnostic, I know I do not believe in the Christian god/heaven/bible. So if I am a good person, and do it because I think it is right, not because I want to try and save myself a place in heaven, does that make it better than someone who only does it because they are afraid they will go to hell (or some equivalent place depending on their belief system). That seems hypocritical - to only do something to get something else......how is that better than doing it just for the sake of being the best you can be. Isn't that what "god" would want of everyone anyway?

And if there is a god, would I really be denied a place in heaven or whatever after I lived a life being a good person who did it truly because they think it is the way people should be? Or would I get sent to some sort of hell or whatever because I didn't believe and that was the only reason I got sent there....and what would that say about this god who would do this? It seems a rather petty thing to do, and much too "human" to me to think that if there was a god that was powerful enough to create all this, it would actually care about something like that.

Unless you are a Jew, God only demands that you keep seven commandments:


1. Not to deny that some sort of higher power created the world
2. Not to disrespect this higher power, nor the god of another religion
3. Not to murder
4. Not to commit adultery
5. Not to steal
6. Not to be cruel to animals
7. Establish courts to enforce the other 6 laws.

If you can do these 7 things, God will consider you to be righteous.

Very good questions, or ponderings. I get what you are saying and I feel the same. Ah well, if there isn't a heaven for people like you and me, there's probably a really nice neighborhood pub for all of us!!




I think you missed the point of her post.

I hope so I could use a nice cold one and some good company right about now actually!!!

I just realized that there is a very similar thread about what happens to atheists - I probably should have just posted on that one, even though I would not say I am an atheist really....oops!!

It sounds like you are scared of going to hell, that speaks volumes about the tools of religion. I hope you will get rid of that fear one day, hopefully by someone posting in this very thread.

The possibility of a god can never be fully denied so agnostism is the safe pick. However if any writings on this planet was divinely inspired it would outshine any other texts or books that claimed the same SO SO SO SO much that there would never have been the possibility of other religions, I believe this and I don't believe in a hell. I hope, that you one day will do the same.

On some level, I think it's better. You're not doing it for a reward or looking to score god points. The WWJD? crowd need that reminder that they will do good or be punished for it later on. They need that fear of hell to force them to be good... Well good within their own bounds of their faith. The morality of common decency compared to the morality of faith is a whole lot different set of rules.

To note here quick, I'm far from perfect and I can be a real butthole. Overall I think I do ok.



Most faiths, yes, you would be denied heaven and will sent to hell. Just the way those things work. That's the gimmick though to, blackmail you into following a faith using psychological terrorism against those that would disagree with the faith in question. I wouldn't worry about it though, just keep doing what you're doing.

I don't think she sounds scared of going to hell. I think the Annmariet is merely questioning why people are "good" for the sake of going to heaven when being a good person should just be good enough. And if the people who were "good" just for the sake of being a good person, would go to heaven, should heaven really exist.

People are missing the point of this. I hope people read it more carefully.

Cheers Annmariet *raises stein*

I wouldn't say I am scared of going to hell, I just think it would be one sh!tty thing if I did just because I didn't believe in some specific "god"
I often get frustrated with people who act like because I am not religious, I can not possibly be a good person. I think that I am as good a person as many a religious folk I have met, but somehow that is not recognized only because I do not share a belief, not because of my actions. And yes- I was brought up Catholic - lots of hell and damnation in that religion!!! I am confused obviously - but thank you very much for your reply!! I appreciate the thought behind your words and it has given me something to consider and I completely agree with your take on texts.

I think you just really hit that nail square on the head for me!!!! *raised stein* Cheers and thanks!!!!!!!!!

Ahh, but here is the thing. Being "good" is entirely and completely relative. Thus, what is good? According to many religions (including my own), good is defined by the Creator, thus in order to do "good" you would have to believe in that Creator and what he thinks of as good. Sure, you can be good in your eyes, but in the eyes of a religious person, if you are not seeking to do the good that God calls good, then you're not doing good at all. Sure, its possible to do the good which God has defined as being good without believing in him, but I'm certain that with today's worldview and society it would be hard for anyone to just figure out what God calls good.

Well thank you!! I feel a bit embarrassed since I can barely get the standard smiley to work!!!!

If someone is just acting good and is really not sincere God will know according to the Bible. No one is saved on works alone also according to the Word.

If someone is sincerely good it does not matter the reason in the end IMHO they are good people and if they have not a guilty conscience in regards to the law written on their hearts they will go to heaven even if they do not believe in God also according to the Bible (Romans 2). This might go against church tradition and many Christians might disagree with me but it simply states that.




Evangelize much?

This is like the opposite of Christians who fear others will go to hell so try and save them.

I understand your message . . . . and I agree that goodness is acceptable only when performed with a criteria . . . . that is, that goodness is done in the name or in service of God. Being good as an individual does not seem to meet the criteria since it is assumed by the Bible that goodness has motive. God alone knows the motives behind a man's words and deeds and judgement is reserved to Him, we are told. But what if I am good only because I am good? I have no motive, it is merely my nature? How can I be judged?

Hiya!
I wouldn't say "I'm better than them", because that would be the equivalent of the "holier than thou" attitude (but from the "other side"), and we're entering a very risky game, for you could start doing the things you do not because you feel is right but because that way it would make you "better" than the ones you are comparing with, knowingly or unknowingly.
With that outta the way, you've got a point there. Doing good things not for the sake of doing them but for the reward after them is by FAR one of the greatest risks you can have if you are religious, and I'm saying this from first-hand experience. I won't lie to you, it has happened to me more time than what I would like to admit , but that doesn't stop me from trying to do it just from the sake of it. And because of another reason: because I love God.
How come? Because, if I love God, and He has told us to help our brothers in whenever we can, and you would want to follow His example, then that should be more than enough reason to be the best you can be, so in the end the works are just the reflection of that love, as PA said in another thread around here.

However, I agree that the reward shouldn't be the reason why you should do it. That's actually quite dishonest. In the end you're just serving your ego.


As for your last question... I've said in this other thread about what happens to Atheists, but I don't think it's quite as binary as believe/don't believe. We are way more complex than that, and in the end what happens it depends on us. And we're in no position to say something like "you're going to hell" or something like that. In the end it's just between God and you

............<<>> In order to tell you what God thinks. We have to go to His (Holy Word The Holy Bible).

(Isa.64:6)- verse-6- All of have become like one who is unclean, and all our (Righteous) are like (filthy rags), we are all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the winds our sins sweep us away. The meaning of this verse-Righteousness....Filthy Rags: Sin and guilt have left the Israelites like soiled underclothes. That is what He compares our (Righteous).

And about Heaven & Hell. In God's Word if your not saved you are not going to Heaven. (Rom.10:9)-verse-9- That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be (Saved) In order to know God's will, you need to read His Word the Holy Bible..............JoeyCastaneda56.

Well that about sums it up... Annmariet, and any other heathens who wanna join us... see you at the great watering hole!!

Tis truly doubtful anyone will be drunk in the afterlife unless it is being drunk on the Spirit. It is not like souls or spirits can drink alcoholic beverages lol maybe it is just me I have tried many things that I liked and drinking was never for me and it is quite unglamorous.

Heavens to Mergatroid... I'm a Christian and Joey just called ME a heathen more or less... and after that I think I'll join you at that pub. ACK! I'll bring my darts.

LOL

.............So where do you get you doctrine from & why do you not believe in hell ?.......................JoeyCastaneda56.

Did you mean to ask me that? Condescending is an Atheist if I'm not mistaken (and I could be).

.............You said you are Christian. All I did was quote from the Word of God...........JoeyCastaneda56.

and I too am a christian, however my faith doesn't believe that the "Word of God" is in the Bible. Those would be the "Inspired WordS of God." It is completely different from what you believe. My faith also believes in the continued and ever changing WordS of God, and we are not concerned with whether the Bible is inerrant or not. We have no creed, we have no specific doctrine, we are free of dogma. We rely on the inner light that is within us all. That is where we believe the Word of God is to be found. I don't know a single person from my church that believes in Hell.

In a way, for the people you are helping, it doesn't matter what the motivation is. So is your motivation a better motivation? Hmmm that is hard because I am sure you feel good about being a good person - there is always some satisfaction in that. So are you really doing it for other people, or because it makes you feel something? You get your reward every time you do something nice, little bite sized chunks of nice feelings - I am sure Christians also get this positive affirmation of their behaviour in this sense. But yeah perhaps for some, it is all about brownie points. Yet somehow I don't think that is true for 99.999999 percent of them.

Who knows? The scariest ones are the ones who say if there is no God there is absolutely no reason to being good. I always hope they never have a crisis of faith

I agree with some on this thread, I will live the best I can, and help others when I can. I don't go to church, or read the bible, but I do live life with kindness and love.(most of the time ) If God then decrees that I should spend an eternity in hell, then so be it. I'm not sure I would want to spend forever with a God like that anyway.

Quakers began from a dissatisfaction with Christianity and because of it is not traditional Christianity. It has been highly anti-Puritanical since its conception. So while it might seem odd that they do not follow the Word alone, sola scriptura, and only speak on what they have experienced personally spiritually, it is not that strange of a concept considering the Catholics subscribe to prima scriptura, which is that things written after the Bible produced by the Roman system are just as equal to the Word. Us Pentecostals who believe in the Word also to some degree follow the Spirit when it comes to matters not specifically stated in the Bible but it is never things that are contrary to the Word.

Some Quakers though now days identify with Islam or Buddhism rather than Christianity. I sometimes get confused because it seems odd someone would call themselves a Christian but reject many parts of the Bible and choose only what they like.



Some people are only good to others whom they like and could care less about anyone else. Others are good thinking they will get something in return later. But you are right the scariest are the nihilist.

Some Christians though do good not because they are good themselves on their own but because they allow the Spirit to guide them and through that they become good. It is not them it is the Spirit. Glory to God.

kinda like alot of main stream christians do !

Like rejecting the fact that satan never fell and lucifer isn't satan nor the devil but in reference to a couple of kings.

plenty of contraditions and laws that are overlooked.

one could go on and on and on.

maybe what she believes is better than old school christanity. more christ like ? more accepting ?

the bible is not the end all and be all. I doubt jesus would ever use it for reference. I doubt he would care about it at all. If one wanted to be a christian.

.............Well it just looks like we are two different types of Christians. Just no this I am not attacking you. I am just quoting scripture from my Holy Bible. In my Bible Jesus spoke about Hell 17 times in Matt, Mark, Luke & John and also in Rev. In our Bible our God says He is the same in (Past, Present & Future). I would like to ask you one question do you have the Jesus of the Holy Bible in your Church.........JoeyCastaneda56.

Isaiah 64:6 is talking about those who either love God in their heart and are good people, yet don't keep the commandments, or those who keep the commandments but don't have that loving spirit within them. The verse speaks of the person who doesn't have both the keeping of God's laws (physical righteousness) and the love/fear of God (spiritual righteousness). Thus to have one without the other is to have righteousness that is as filthy rags before God's eyes. You can't claim to love him and not keep his commandments and still expect to be considered righteous. In the same way you can't keep his commandments when you don't love him and still expect to be considered righteous. It is the combination of both that God requires for righteousness. The verse you quoted really doesn't have anything to do with this thread.

............Be careful what you wish for you might get it. There be no partying in Hell for (Heathens). If you want I can tell you what Hell is going to be like from the (Word of God).............JoeyCastaneda56.

Some Quakers do believe in Jesus and follow the Word and anything that their spirit would lead them to believe that is contrary to the Word would be considered a delusion according to the Richmond Document (link) though other Quakers reject this. IMHO it is just easier for people to not have to follow the Bible and not speaking for anyone but it is a hard thing to do while lacking the Spirit. It is only the Spirit that allows us to follow, it is the Spirit that prays when we do not have the words or know not how, and it is the Spirit that tells us if we are doing something contrary to the will of God, and it is the Spirit that convicts. If someone is relying just on themselves or anyone else for all this then IMHO they are doing something wrong but then again everyone is free to do as they wish while claiming they are Christians.

Ie if your doing good just to get to heaven forgot it.

............<<>> Sorry I think it is good for this thread. And I do like your statement.......................JoeyCastaneda56.

Except that the thread's topic concerns Heaven and Hell and whether or not by being a good person you will go to one or the other. In Judaism there is no such thing as an eternal hell or eternal damnation. God is forever forgiving. He most certainly wouldn't create people simply to send them to hell. Thus, this she would most certainly not end up in hell (If it existed).


However, in Judaism the afterlife is relatively unimportant. This life is where all the important stuff happens, and this life is the one you should worry about. If you are not a "good person" the condition of your soul and thus the quality of your life will be generally affected. But, if you were to describe Judaism in a sentence it would be "Love thy neighbor as thyself." Not because God is unimportant, but the fact that your neighbor needs your love far more than God does. Thus, (considering that "The Lord dwells with the lowly and the humble") it would be sinful (IMO) to suggest that because she does not believe a certain way she is not righteous.

In fact, the very first words of her post, "I strive to be the best person I can be, everyday. I try to do what is right, in any situation, especially when the right thing is the harder thing to do. I care for others, put others needs before my own, and do many things in my life that make my life much harder. I do this because I think it is the correct way to live my life, not because I think it is going to earn me some reward after I die." are words which everyone should be able to say. These words (though they do not encompass the totality of my beliefs) are evidence to me and my conscience that her decisions and her actions are enough to make God proud of her. Not because of some reward does she act, but out of the goodness of her soul. That is true righteousness, it is a righteousness like unto that of Abraham's. She may not keep the totality of the commandments, but so long as she keeps those which she does keep out of love, and not for reward, I wouldn't venture to call her anything less than a righteous woman, lest I bring about the anger of God upon me.

Well by the way Kaizen explained it it has everything to do with this thread since part of this thread is just about being good with no expectation of heaven. Or as daniel put it:

............<<>> Good point 'Clovis' Jesus said: (Test the Spirits to see if they are from God or Satan). And the test is the true Word of God............JoeyCastaneda56.

This is true.. nice bit of research.

There are a few different types of Friends really.

Programmed and Orthodox -- this is not unlike any other protestant church. They have paid ministers, and more traditional Christian beliefs. Call them "liberal protestants" if you will.

Unprogrammed and Liberal -- this is sometimes almost a Universalist church and you will find a WIDE range of beliefs including Catholism, Agnosticsm (we have an Agnostic Quaker on UM actually), muslim, pantheists--you name it. I attend an Unprogrammed Liberal meeting, we even have a couple of atheists that have been regular attendees for years.

I tend to say I'm half liberal and half Orthodox. I'd love to find an unprogrammed orthodox meeting in my area, but it doesn't exist. They do exist in other areas though. I hold the belief that christ is my personal savior and I am for the most part a trinitarian. I still believe in the traditional Quaker concepts of the Bible which are as I explained earlier.

In Quakerism, you don't get to just believe whatever you want really. We believe in shared revelation. If one person shares a revelation with the group, the rest of the group must also share the same revelation. For example, we have a VERY strong belief in non-violence. Many people have had a revelation that eating meat is violent and therefore wrong. But since not everyone has received that revelation, Quakers have yet no opinion on vegitarianism yet. I've always compared traditional quakers to Tolkein's Tree Ents and half think he based that character on Quakers. LOL.

I attend my liberal meetings, and to balance out, I also attend Liberal Mennonite meetings occasionally. I don't take their sacrements or take a dip in their baptismal pool, but they are warm and welcoming and I enjoy their meetings (even if theyr'e a tad on the fire and brimstone side occasionally.)

There are also a large number of Quakers that strongly believe that the only way to understand the Bible is through the Word of God from within. We believe that very few people, if any have actually understood the meaning of the Bible perfectly... it would take many lifetimes to receive all the revelations necessary to completely understand it.

Modern Quakerism is really almost a lifestyle rather than a religion ...

Ya, I was reading today how even though it is highly spiritual it is not an individual type of spiritualism but group oriented. And even though it is highly mystical, Friends do not retreat from the world, but actively engage it. From a National Geographic issue I was reading earlier today by coincidence, an article on Philadelphia, it mentioned some facts about Penn and also that an American and British organizations of Friends, two separate organizations, won the 1947 Nobel Peace Prize. So it made sense when I later read on the net regarding its mysticism. (The National Geographic article also mentioned how they were persecuted and even executed by Puritans for their beliefs so it allowed them to be very tolerant of other religions which contributed to Philadelphia growing in size. By 1776 Penn's family were no longer in control of the city. In 1754 they also split due to disagreement over the French and Indian War).

Much of Christianity is also a lifestyle but it is also a religion too IMHO

Yes, Quakers have won a nobel peace prize for their work regarding peace activism and conscientous objection.

We have a permanent and staffed UN Peace Office. Quakers don't retreat from the world, we take a very active part... our numbers are small, but our voices and more importantly our actions can be VERY big at times.

I still to this day believe that William Penn may have been one of the most influential people in all of Western history. He did some things in Pennsylvania some 75 years prior to the declaration of independence and constitution that had NEVER been done before anywhere. Things that today, we hold dear as part of our basic human rights. He was a fascinating man.

............<<>> We are not living in the (Dispensation of the Conscience). The Dispensation of the Conscience lasted 1,656 years. From the time of Adam to Noah.

I am talking about God's word not mine. Good people, nice people, works that people do, and so on does not get you into Heaven. Only people that belong to Jesus Christ will make Heaven their home. (Saved People). Now these are Jesus own words. In (Mark.16:14-20)- 16- He who believes and is baptized will be (Saved); but he who does not believe will be condemned. If she is saved and belongs to Jesus Christ. Then she does not need to worry.....JoeyCastaneda56.

You've beautifully articulated my views on this same subject...... Cheers as well, *raises glass of mineral water*, alcohol bloats me.....




Clovis are you fair-dinkum with this ?? It's definitely not the message that I've been getting from the Christians on this board.....If that's the case, woohoo......

I'll be there.




Hmm...are you sure you want to play against me in darts?

...

As for the original post:

I,for one,do not believe that you "need" to follow a religion in order to be a good person,nor does one need to have a belief in a deity to be a good person.I believe that what we do is according to our own inherent nature...which has no base in any religious beliefs,since we usually start acting on our own thoughts and personalities before we can even comprehend the concept of religion..Each of us does what we feel is "right" for ourselves.For some,the "right" thing to do is as you do,doing good deeds without any thoughts towards a reward.For others,the "right" thing is to look for ways to gain power or control over others,while some feel it is "right" to steal,con or lie.There are also those who feel that what is "right" for themselves is to follow the disciplines of specific religions or belief systems.

I'd say to just keep doing what you're doing,for it is who and what you are.

Says who? Granted you believe in Jesus's words, but if you look at the foundation behind Jesus's story, you will realize the vast amount of misconceptions, misunderstanding, and non-truth behind what he taught concerning the afterlife.

Micah 6:8~"What, O man, does the Lord require of you? That you act justly and love mercy, that you walk humbly with your God."

Jeremiah 22:3~"Thus saith the LORD: Execute ye justice and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor; and do no wrong, do no violence, to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place."

God asks that we help those who are less fortunate, that we remain humble, and that we look towards him. The afterlife is relatively unimportant, and when it is to be discussed, it is most certainly not to be discussed under "heaven/hell" dualistic pretenses.

Oh, and to the OP... I think you're doing just fine kiddo... keep on keepin' on... Do what your heart tells you is right. Be kind, be fair, be happy, be sensible and logical ... and I think you have it in the bag.

And no Pups, I don't want to play you in darts, you'll probably kick my butt... I've been playing for 22 years and I still SUCK... and I can trust God ain't gonna help me on that one. LOL

............As I have said to some people in the past. In Heaven you and I shall see who is there and who is not. Have a good night........JoeyCastaneda56.

You are most welcome I apreciate you considering them.

What you just said was exactly a threat Joey. I know you won't see it, and I know you probably don't mean to, but it is a threat. And I don't wish to hear from your Word of God because I already have my own set of beliefs, thanks.

And no offense, but if hell is full of the wonderful heathens I have met here, I don't think I'll fare too badly.

Yes it is better to do right because it is the right thing to do. Yes ,I believe God would want that too.



Bible or no bible, God (the personal creator style one) if it did exist wouldnt care whether we read some scriputre or not. It would judge us according to what is in our hearts and not according to what is in our belief system or faith.

God has no religion. ---Mahatma Gandhi

hmm "good" by whose standards, who decides this????.....I seek a win win for any situaton i am in, i self correct and utilize the tools of placing limits on my self as needed and can do this ... I use my life in a manner that reflects a non violence template incluidng a vegan commitment....and it progressive the more I know the more I grow.....my motive and incentive is this works for myself and those that i touch here and now..... i do not need reward or policing by any outside canon's this is the point of bieng a mature adult to me... i raise kids and i am aware that my behavior is the model they will follow i change my mind easily and quickly as needed, i am firm but flexible I allow for change which is inherent to the life experince, i am sharing a life exeprince with alot of other biengs i consider them and when i can't i try to understand why. and change it ........ ..... i am not concerned with bieng right, so this lends to alot of ease and delight in my life i am concerned with what works and I can adapt and learn from my experiences and rather delight in this to be honest.........i do what I do because this is what it means to be human to me......

I don't really feel rewarded by a lot of the things I do. I take care of my mother, who physically and mentally abused me, and I really had no relationship with, but I do it because it is the right thing to do. So four years later I am still taking care of her, watching her mentally decay due to dementia and I struggle with it daily. There really is no good feeling associated with this, just a burden for the most part.

A couple years ago I got a call from an old friend who told me he was calling, looking for a reason to live. I flew to Louisiana 2 days later to see him and realized he was lost in drug addiction. He wanted to come stay with me because he had lost his job and home, but this would just enabled him since he would have everything he needed with no responsibility or need to change himself and his behavior, so while I did not allow that, I did offer to put him in rehab, which was expensive, but actually might truly help him longterm. He has since relapsed so there is not much of a good feeling there either, but I did try to do the right thing for him but I have to say that every time I pay on that credit card I feel like it was a waste, there is no good feeling there either.

Sometimes it seems like the right thing is so much harder and does not really offer any good feelings for me, which is why it is so hard sometimes to feel like it is really worth it. But then I think about the kind of person I want to be, and I keep on trying to do what I think is right, regardless of the repercussions. Maybe what I think is right is really wrong, maybe other people would do something better or different. I guess all I can do is keep trying to be the best I can be.