Okay, this is obviously one of the movies heavily-tackled topics on this forum and probably in global society. But when it comes straight down to reason, religion is completely obsolete in this day and age. If you look through history, you'll find that every cultural group had their own religion. The funny thing about this is that it's probably the sole reason why NOT to believe in a religion. So we begin with the ancient dominating ones. Judaism, Egyptian Mythology, Greek Mythology, Roman Mythology, etc. What happens? Well things go good for a while and some spin-off religions are spawned like Christianity (if you don't believe me, I don't want to have to use someone elses' work so just watch Zeitgeist part I, please). Anyway, so eventually Constantine brings the whole Roman empire under Christianity. Why? Who knows, maybe because the Romans have lost their use for the Roman religion and by replacing it with Christianity, Constantine can have control over these Christian trouble makers. So now; every religion in the greater world, has died out but Judaism, simply because of its strong roots in Israel and Christianity because now, the whole damn Roman empire is under its widespread influence. So Christianity is literally forced down the throats of the empire, not because of any spiritual reason, but literally because a human being made it so.
So eventually we come to Isaac Newton. This is the interesting part. For centuries, Christianity goes unchallenged, but Isaac steps up to the plate and shakes its grounds. He begins to prove Christian beliefs wrong, even though he didn't want to because he was Christian. So now we come into a new age. And in this age, it's no longer about getting to the after-life, and what we have to do in this life to go to heaven; now we learn that maybe this world has some neat things in it that religion doesn't cover. So now, we make the move from blindly believing in religion, to trying to find truths that are based on reason, not belief through science. I mean, yes, there are things science hasn't proven, there are things that science can't explain; but this is where religious fanatics lose the point. I mean, the purpose of science isn't to answer questions, the purpose of science is to challenge questions, and that means that whatever we find scientificly, will and should be challenged; but the point is that it is being challenged. In religion, we believe in things that literally are, because someone said so, and we're told not to challenge it, or we'll go to hell, or end up in an endless cycle of reincarnation, or whatever is the negative end-point of your religion.
So this is our next point. People who believe in religion, believe in fear. You might not notice it but try this: say a profanity against the god that you believe in. Hard isn't it? If you didn't, then that means you didn't out of fear, most likely because you will be punished by and invisible thing that lives in the clouds, which may or may not happen. If you did, then honestly, did you do it cautiously and prepare yourself for it? Or did you really mean it? If any of these are true, then it means that the sole reason that you believe in your religion is out of fear, otherwise why would you believe in it at all? Love and peace? Well there are a great amount of Atheists and Agnostics who are very peaceful and loving and a great amount of religious believers who aren't. Belonging to a religion doesn't mean that you are somehow now a nicer person than if you didn't.
Now I've lost my train of thought but I believe that I was going to state the reason why different cultures required religions back in the day.

But anyway, if you want to post, answer me why exactly you are a believe. And why you believe in your particular religion rather than someone elses'. Or post whatever, I don't care.

I believe in my own brand of spirituality that isn't above changing .. as I grow and change so does it . it's fluid.

Religions have gone obsolete in the past. as they will continue to do unless they evolve. IMO the boiling point is coming close for the Abrahamic ones. All of them have had to let go of alot of older stances to keep up .............. and the more people question it's validity the more antiquated it becomes. I wonder what it will look like in 100 or 200 years. wonder even more further down the line.

now what would really shake things up ? If the Jewish messiah came.

all I can say is I'd want ring side seats for that show. lol pass the popcorn.

religion is obsolete
too bad control is not
(the real purpose of religion)

1. There is not a religion in existence that demands that you don't question it (except for small sections of Christianity).

2. A religious person does not speak against their deity(ies) out of fear, but because he/she cares and loves his/her deity and no internet rant is going to make them insult one of the most important people in their lives. Religious people generally do not believe out of fear, it is only foolish people who don't know what they believe and people who don't really care that think religious people believe out of fear....why don't you go learn about some religions before you rant and rave and insult the entirety of religious people.

Seen it. All I can suggest is to check their source-list, and examine the reliability (or rather the lack thereof) of the sources they use as references.

I don't think Christianity is obsolete. You are of course welcome to your own opinions, but I think Christianity is as relevant today as it has been at any time in history (at least to me it is).

All the best,

Thats not true, I would never say anything profane to my gods, because they give me no reason to, I don't understand your logic that if I can't cuss a god out, I only believe in him out of fear? Well, its just like your parents, you love them, and I doubt you'd cuss them out, because if you did you get punished, but you don't do what they say because you are afraid of them, you do it because you love them and they have done a lot for you.


Definitely, I know many Atheists who are good friends of mine, and very nice people, and I know plenty of Theists who aren't so nice, I don't really think too many people believe that believing in god(s) makes them more ethical than others, though I'm sure some do.

Cool, that's seems more reasonable, to believe in what YOU believe, not convert to a collective belief. But I just generally find that all religions seem to have no purpose.


I didn't say that it demands you don't question it, but you just won't out of fear.


Well yes, they do love his or her deity, but how? How do you love something that is literally not there? I'd enjoy an explanation of how it is you can prove the existence of your deity of choice, but you don't have to if you don't want. But when we say things like it is only foolish people who don't do this, or it is people who don't care that think this, that's called stereotyping. Plus it's also quite unjust to assume that I don't learn about religions simply because I don't care. But if you must know, yes, I have studied many of the different world religions and know their foundations, and yes I have been going to a catholic school ever since I was 4 years old, but I don't think it's foolish that I raise these types of thoughts. I also don't think that I don't care about religions, because I don't believe I'd have any business in criticizing a religion unless I actually have knowledge of what it is.

Again, I don't know of a religion in existence that has followers who wouldn't question it because they are afraid of damnation.



You believe its not there. Many religious people talk, walk with, communicate with, and experience their deities on a daily basis. Kind of like a spirit that they commune with. Proving it is not something that is done.


If you truly don't believe in criticizing a religion unless you have knowledge of it then you shouldn't have said:


Because you did not specify a religion, and merely said "In religion" you have encompassed every single religion. Since you (i'm certain) you have not studied every religion (all 15,000 or more of them), you cannot make this statement, or any other of the generalized statements you have made. Especially when there isn't a religion currently in existence that teaches that its adherents should be afraid.

Well if you don't want to, it's because you have something to lose from it. I mean, you say you don't out of love, that means you expect God to love you, which means that you work towards him loving you. What this means is that you want him to love you because you DON'T want him to hate you. Because if he hates you what do you lose? Well, when I do it, what happens is nothing and I go on living with my life, and I don't believe that I'm going to go to hell if I do. If you do, what do you believe would happen?

Help me out with that because I've actually never experience it.


Well religion is a term and a term is not a person. See, people, you can't stereotype, but a term you can. But I apologize, I should have said what I consider religion, but then I would have to go through this whole thing about the criteria I expect for what I consider a religion to have, but I think that's already what the term religion does. It's a grouping of different belief systems or so that all meet the same criteria, which means if you can talk about one religion, you can talk about them all. Otherwise, it's not a religion, if it doesn't meet the criteria to be termed as a religion.

Well, might I get punished for it? Yes, but I am not 100% that I would, my gods seem to be a lot more lenient than the Judeo-Christian god. I sure as hell hope my gods would love me, but I'm sure not all of them do, in my religion my gods and goddesses all have emotions just like humans, and I'm sure they can hate. I'm not sure I lose anything by them hating me, but then again I might, I don't claim to know what happens to us after we die, there could be an afterlife, there could not be, I'm ok with either one. I don't cuss out my gods, out of respect for them, I don't fear my gods at all, I admit that they are way more powerful than me, and if they wanted to could wreck my life completely, and cussing them out might make them more prone to do so, but I'm not afraid of them. If you want to say it's fear, you're more than welcome to do so, but I don't consider it fear.

Well it could also be because it would take to long to curse at each and every one of them. lol I'm just kidding.

But you said "my gods and goddesses all of emotions just like humans". Well if they have human traits...what exactly makes them godly?

It's a process I'm not sure you'd be comfortable with doing. But if you want more info go to THIS SITE


Ok then, so why even say "religion" when not all "religions" fit into what you have described.

lol


The fact that they are gods? lol. Well, according to the Bible the Christian god has human traits, anger, jealousy, and stuff like that, so what makes him godly? I guess the fact that they have some power over the universe, exist on a higher plane, and all that jazz.

Heck , I argue with God all the time. the only one I can yell at that doesn't hold a grudge.

and yes I think most people believe out of either fear or up bringing , habit , tradition . without any sense of it. How did she insult you ? she was right.

A lot depends on the religion. I am a neo-Celtic Pagan and I don't believe in something just because someone said to. We don't have a single source or book our religion is based on, just because it is in a book don't make true. Our religion is one of experience, we learn from nature and the Universe. When people want follow this path I tell them to get an understanding of physics, because that is the foundation of understanding the Universe. So to answer the question is religion obsolete some are some aren't. It up to each person to decide which is which and make their own choice.

For me religion in many ways, holds humans back. For me it is only a matter of time before religion becomes un needed by humanity

I guess we need to remind them that the romans and jews thought that christians were obsolete when it started

Cool, I'll check it out, thanks.


You're not alone in asking that question.


Well that's the thing. I mean the reason why we look to them as gods is not because of who they are but what we think they are. If these strange beings of religious texts are actually present; then who exactly said that they carry all the answers and hold the keys to all the doors? It plays in with Plato's idea about the prisoner who lives his life staring at a wall with shadows of statues cast on it. All he sees is the statue, a small part of that object, and to him, in his imagination, he could call these his gods and assume that they have all the answers simply because they are not in his position, they are a bit higher up in the sense that they're not tied to a wall. Now we say that these things like the Abrahamic God, the Hindu gods/goddesses, and every which way you'd like to go; we say that they are our gods, but what gives them the right to be? Really in the bible, the only reason why we would think that God is a true god is because of the things he did. He managed to conjure up storms and pillars of fire and have all hell pounding down on the enemies of the Jews. Now if you think about it, every miracle that God has preformed in the Old Testament is either capable by humans currently with our technology, or is being worked towards. I mean, we have nuclear bombs that will do far more damage than the Angel of Death did on Egypt; save for it's selective processing (of course we have precision weapons that can do that). So really, what makes the Abrahamic God god? Maybe he was just a guy who had technology that surpassed those of the time of Moses and Joseph and David.

I mean if you think about it, are we not gods to animals simply because we have technological advances that they are incapable of and cannot understand? Are adults not gods to children because they have experience in life and abilities that their children cannot understand? Are you not a god to me because you have a view that I currently do not understand? The people who have knowledge and ability greater than another person, are the people who are gods.

Well to go with how you mentioned about understanding physics would be understanding your religion. What's the point of being part of your religion then if everything is based on earthly, concrete and scientific values? Why not just be religion-less? There has to be something that your religion offers otherwise why would be choose it over another religion, or it over non-religion?

Yes, the primitive teachings of organised religion should be obsolete by now.

We have science that tells us the truth about the world. It tells us that being a homosexual isn't bad. It tells us that using contraception is good for your health and that having pre marital sex won't effect you in any way. Science tells us that being peaceful is beneficial for health and that masturbation is normal.

However, humans are religious animals. We need spirituality. We need something to believe in, to feel connected to. We have woken up to the idea that there is no God and that there are some pretty viable options in explaining why people believed in God in the first place (I'm talking about Athiest Intelligent Design).

When we see all of these things, what can we fill the religious hole with? The religion of the Infinite. Feeling connected to the universe and our environment. Ancient religions have done this for thousands of years - feeling the connection between one self and nature. Being a part of the universe. Being the universe.

When we can tap into the infinite universe and feel connected with everything and everyone, this will be the 'religion' of the future. Awakened individuals who follow what science has proven to be true whilst having a beautiful spirituality full of peace and love.

-josh

Well put, thank you.

Duh! I wonder why?
If you look into why this is so, you will discover why religion is not obsolete, and probably will never be. The ancient mariners on future space faring light ships will probably have their own religions. Spirituality is an integral part of the human condition, and science will never (well not for a long time anyway) provide answers to the timeless questions our sentience provokes. If for these reasons alone, spirituality, and its organised counterpart , religion, will remain a critical element of humanity, and human social organisation, for the forseeable future.
No human is able to live in isolation from the universe around him. While some are content merely to sit and enjoy the glory of its existence, many will always ask the essential questions of sentience. Such as; who am i? where did i come from? what is my purpose? and increasingly, how can i best maintain a healthy and productive relationship between myself, and all the other elements of the universe, which exist around me?

.Science doesnt do either of these things It is not the design, or intention, of science to show such things.
Scientific method has many valid uses but it doesnt include either of these. Truth is not a term applicable to science and neither is good or bad. These are things human beings have to decide for them selves. Using scientific method may help determine ones views on what is truth or what is good or bad but so may many other reference points

Science helps us determine what happens (through observation,) and why it may happen (through deduction and application of logical process)

Itink you are also misrepresenting the findings of science. I have never yet encountered a scientific finding which came to your following conclusion.



In fact, one thing scientificaly based observation, analysis and conclusions have shown, is that premarital sex will effect you in a variety of ways, and that those effects are different to the ways in which marital sex effects you.

Some religious people believe out of fear, the majority believe out of a combination of desire and illogic. This is much stronger in those who have had an "experience" brought on by drugs or mental illness (even a short episode of such.)

This is what I've gathered from my vast experience with, and observations of them.

Hay Rip have I ever shown yah the Church I go to, waiat here... yah awesome or what.... This is where I go to Spirit---church the way it should be---this is where one will find me when I say I am going to crurch--> but please if you do find me here if you do come here, do not speak, for the spirit and waters will do that for you--> Note the tiny people at top for size refrence--> it's 100 teet and Casecading into the McKenzie River--> Sahalie Falls, Oregon Cascades http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UJCrb9mVeU



Twain, Mark (Clemens, Samuel, Langhorne)
(1835-1910) b. Florida, Missouri
Man is the Reasoning Animal. Such is the claim. I think it is open to dispute. Indeed, my experiments have proven to me that he is the Unreasoning Animal... In truth, man is incurably foolish. Simple things which other animals easily learn, he is incapable of learning. Among my experiments was this. In an hour I taught a cat and a dog to be friends. I put them in a cage. In another hour I taught them to be friends with a rabbit. In the course of two days I was able to add a fox, a goose, a squirrel and some doves. Finally a monkey. They lived together in peace; even affectionately.


Next, in another cage I confined an Irish Catholic from Tipperary, and as soon as he seemed tame I added a Scotch Presbyterian from Aberdeen. Next a Turk from Constantinople; a Greek Christian from Crete; an Armenian; a Methodist from the wilds of Arkansas; a Buddhist from China; a Brahman from Benares. Finally, a Salvation Army Colonel from Wapping. Then I stayed away for two whole days. When I came back to note results, the cage of Higher Animals was all right, but in the other there was but a chaos of gory odds and ends of turbans and fezzes and plaids and bones and flesh--not a specimen left alive. These Reasoning Animals had disagreed on a theological detail and carried the matter to a Higher Court.

Pavot

Well when I mean science, I'm talking about philosophy as well, which is a major step away from religion because it doesn't rely on supernatural beings or supernatural stories, it's based more on people. However a lot of people try to say that it is religion on its own, but I find that philosophy belongs more to science and is a lot more reliable and believable than religion because it deals with things that people experience, not things that we are supposed to believe in. And just so you know, the questions that you'd listed are literally the foundations of philosophy. Where religion offers one solid answer of each of those questions, (ie: a child of God, God, to serve God, to serve God a second time, and yet again, to serve God), philosophy will always be looking for the answers to those questions, coming up with possibilities, but never actually being in a standstill.

Very true.

As the man said, " There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

A simple answer to your question is this. You see most people like yourself and many others on the forum here, only have geniune experience of religion based on christianity and its teachings. Unfortunately they never step beyond this and base their whole assumption about religion and its use, based on the bible and christianity. This is a blinded view, alsmost as bad yours.

With out breaking down your post too much and making you look like the conventional sheep of the 21st century, who claims he or she does not follow a religion, yet will be quick to judge other and what is around them either based on science or some fanciful self spiritual rubbish. For example, you equate all religious people, mainly people who follow or believe in a god as people who are doing this purely out of fear, and to prove it you ask us to say a profanity against our god or gods, and if we cant its due to fear. Well mate, why dont you say a profanity to your mum, or your dad, if you dont, its because you fear them and the consequence, if we boiled it down to this alone, that would be silly, dont you agree. You would not be rude to them out of respect, love, fear and the fact its not ethical and morally right thing to do. The same applies to saying a profanity to my god, typical example by you though, a bit like freedom of speech, which only seems to be excersices to ridicule or be rude to a minority of people, and we call this freedom, ofcourse we have plenty of freedom to unrightoues and bad in our conduct towards others, but is it right?

Again the repeated notion that i have come across several times now, regarding science and its role, yes it challenges questions, but its also there to answer questions, logically, and by means which are testable and one can ascertain repeating of results. Apply this science to the religions you hate so much and most of them will fall short, I agree, but there are some that wont and some that will in parts, therefore science is not the only answer to this world and the lifes we live. Science would be the tool of any true religion from a true god, which would confirm what the religious texts say. Unfortunately, we think today in the modernage, that man has changes, i dont thinks so, man is man, and has the same problems he always had, holes to fill, empty minds to engage, and fulfil a purpose and to have a belonging, in todays modern times, we think ignorance is bliss, not understanding some one else and commenting is seen is freedom of speech, forgetting whether one should have a good understanding of the religions he or she criticises, in order to be tolerant and non-offensive, whether delibrate or not not. Funny, with all the technoligical advances, we are still the same as man was 1000's of years ago with similar problems, but different tools, just because we have technological advancement does not mean, religion is false, yes, many ideas we have of god, are correctly rejected by science it eliminates notions of false gods, therefore, those with only christian experience reject it and rightfully so and become atheists and reject a god totally, not realising that science they so much believe in and adhere it is only eliminating the notion of a man god, not god itself.

Some say god is love, some say he is fear, some say he peace, these are all parts of god, he is not only one. Imagine a god which is only love, the latter being an emotion and just one aspect of human nature, yet we have people claim that god is only love, foolish at best.

For me belief in god is based on evidence, scientific, logical, rational, mathamatical, religious, spiritual and testable material. I did not think like most people in this modern age, that ignorance is bliss, i studied religions, applied my mind, science etc to test them, and the way religions are tested are their sources, if they can stand the tests, they must be truth. Also we have people here that just jump on band wagons with others, non thinkers, people who base their thinking on others opinions, and cannot form their own, due to lack of knowledge or research. Most people here base their ideas on religion based on what they have seen, read or been told, not many go to the root and study it for themselves. A true religion and source of material from god, would come in the form best recognised by man, most reject the idea of a book from divine origin, but why not, after we study and learn all we know from books, one of the earliest forms of record and teaching to ourselves, yet if a god sends his message in something we recognise and know well, we reject it, simply because its not something we want it to be, something out of this world, something we dont know or recognise, then the questions would arise, how would you determine its credibility, with nothing to compare with or means to understand it. A true message from a true, god should be perfect, error free and within it knowledge which we are discovering, discovered and yet to discover.

I shal stop here with my rant, i did notice in your post, that you were planning to take us through evolution of religions and why people follow what they do, after the above post, im very intrigued.

Salaam (Peace)

ALL the advancements of science, in every area, actually enhance my faith. I love physics, and studies in Cosmology. I can't imagine what it was like interpreting many parts of the Quran without the scientific knowledge of today. Allah (SWT) has blessed us with knowledge.

What is the scientific and testable evidence for God ?



fullywired

Many people believe in God because they choose to. Many grow up believing in God and have the choice to leave without no repercussions from their family. You really should not believe stereotypes or that your path is infinitely better than Christianity or another faith. What do you think would have happened in some ancient Celtic village where everyone grew up believing in Celtic deities and one person decided to go against the grain? Think everyone would have been accepting? Think they had a choice back then? Oh I know my post won't convince anyone and those with an arrogant sense of superiority who hate or dislike the traditional and dominant religion of the West will continue to. But it is rather very large and there are many ways to approach it so the stereotypical 'they believe in it because they are told to' just does not apply to everyone. And just because it is in a book does not mean it is not true. If the book is not for you then it is not but to keep insinuating it is not true for those who believe is nothing but sheer arrogance on your part and most likely you will continue with it as well as others. Have fun feeling superior but do know some of us on this side respect your path for what it is.

Well I have been through it many times and when people often ask for evidence, they often dont even know what it is they are asking for. The person questioning, not just in your case but in many have no criteria set to be able to judge the evidence as credible and correct. For example, there are those who want to see god with their own eyes, the flawed thinking here, is that god is like creation and our limted sight ought be able to pick him up and see him or if not that, god being all powerful, should be able to manifest himself right infront of our eyes, but what they dont realise is that they are restricted and limited in their capacity, therefore this is impossible until such a time, when we are no longer resitricted by the current limitations upon us, this time in many religion is thought it be the after life, a different world and universe, with different limitations etc.

So if you are wanting to see god with your naked eyes, keep dreaming, also there are many things we believe in, which we cant see, hear, touch or smell. confined by our senses, todays modernity will only accept what is within the realm of our senses, yet it is the same science which is also casting shadow on this realm

In short, what you see, smell, touch, and hear, are mere electrical signals processed by the brain in total isolation to the elements or the senses, and it is the brain which tells you what it is you preceive, yet the brain is also a part of the world which we call physical, yet its true nature to us is unknown, if one can feel a thump in a dream and trust me, some dreams are so vivid that they seem real, the question is what is in fact reality, this physical world you live in, and your confined by your senses and can only percieve via those senses and the brain projects this universal perception to us all. So if what we see is simply pereception and not hard matter as evolutionists claim, then surely a perception is information being processed, thus a creator of this perception is a true reality and the only thing absolute. Therefore if we preceive, there is a preception, there must be something which has created this grand illusion and perception which we call the universe and who see's this perception, well your soul ofcourse. this is just scratching the surface.

Going back to a criteria for judgment, to establish which evidence is correct and which isnot, before one can put it forward, the questioners must first set the criteria and have true conception of what a true god is, not the false one's which thankfully science eliminates, i,e, man god, etc.

That's all very nice but it doesn't address the subject ,"what is the scientific and testable evidence for God "


fullywired

LOL. Thats a pretty question, whats sufficient to you as evidence, whats the criteria for judgment and what is a true GOD? you see i need to straighten your question our before it can be answered. You set the criteria, and if you dont believe in a god, hypothetically tell me in your calculated and intelligent mind, what is a true god, base it on science if you wish.

Oh yeah, the earlier post ended with biology 101, about the world we perceive, this is based on new science and new evidence. Get around that before we can add more.

You don't need to straighten my question.,you said you had testable scientifisc evidence for god and I asked what it was


fullywired

I gave you one, biology 101, these very words you read are a perception, a result of electrical signals processed by the brain, which it in total isolation. Where is this perception from, like i said get around this, and i will add more, if you need to go back to my original post and read the last bit again, it modern science, proof of a soul and proof of a creator of this universal perception, proof of god, only 1 for now.

Now you set your criteria for judgment and let me know, so i know what needs to be sufficed in order for you to accept it as evidence, also, what in your opinion is a god?

Thanks.

The fact that you said "we" shows that you believe there is more than just material stuff. We're not a bunch of chemical reactions, chemical reactions do not say "we"

About how much our "Advances" some quotes from Albert Einstein :


http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/EinsteinQuotes.html

IMO religion still exists because many human beings either believe or even recognize that not everything is explainable by so-called science. (Getting scientists to agree is a major chore in itself, let alone the rest of the human race. )

Like it or not, religion is IMO an indelible part of humanity, just like its opposite.

I haven't set any criteria ,all I asked is to see the evidence you say you have


fullywired

Fair enough.

Personally, i think philosophy and religion are a product/ part of, the same innate reasoning function of humanity.It is probably imposible to evolve sentience without developng both religion and philosophy.

Im sorry you feel religion is an inferior tool for humanity than philosophy.

Personally i've found it the other way round, but i can appreciate your pov. You see for me religion deals with real things we experience, while philosophy deals with abstract constructs. It can be useful in doing that, but its answers still don't get at the heart of the human condition.

I dont agree with you that religion, and particularly spirituality, gives only one solid answer. In my experience it offers a multitude(perhaps almost as many answers as there are people on the planet)
Philosophy confines people to themselves/humanity in looking for answers . Religion examines both the nature of humanity, and the possibility of a connection with; powers, forces, things, entities, etc which are beyond humanity and exist independent of humanity. So for most people yes it requires belief, although for some, with physical experience of such powers, entities etc, it becomes a tool to investigate them.

Im not sure if philosophy has always been this way, but in a modern secular world, as you say, philosophy seems to have become another function of science, and thus put aside its investigation of things outside the realm of science.

The fact i said we, means nothing in the sense you have described above. It was we in collective sense meaning mankind, of which i am apart and so are you. We have made advances in science and technology, but as people we have not changed much and we still have the same problems.

As for chemical reactions and them saying we, obviously this concept i pointed towards is beyond your understanding at the moment. My whole point was, we are not just chemicals put togethers, which have evolved allegedley to become what we are today. And modern science shows, that the physical world we call matter, its true nature is unkown, what we do know is through our senses, hence most people are confined by the senses, including scienctists and the average joe. what is clearly shows through basic biology, is that what you read right now is a perception created as a result of light hitting your eyes, then that light creates an image upside down on the back of the retina, in turn your nerves in the eye relay electrical signals to the brain, which is in total isolation and has no exposure to light, yet it converts those signals, in to something meaningful and informs us what it is you are reading, this clearly shows its a perception and the brain can be taken out cut apart and therefore apart of the very same physical world, so who does the brain show the perception to, YOU ofcourse and who is YOU, it is WE, I, and what is this I, it is ofcourse your concience, where does it begin and where does it end, it is your SOUL, to which the body is means and vehicle to interact with this physical world, we call matter. Yet it true nature is unknown and all of us are subject to a universal perception, each seeing things with slight or varying degrees. So if we possess a soul, which has a body, a shell so to speak, which enables to understand and interact with its enviroment, once you die, your soul leaves this body and another reality will begin, the afterlife. This biology 101 fused with new science and new thinking, very hard to argue against too.

For example, if we crossed mine and your nerves and connected my nerves to your brain and vica versa. While I eat cake, you will be filled by it and taste it etc, while i eat cake, you could be punched, and while i eat cake and you feel those sensations, everybite i take will be a punch and that is what i will feel. Showing we are subject to a grand perception, of which light plays a huge part and our brain process electrical signal flying around our bodies nervous system, telling us what we feel, see, hear, taste and smell.

Maybe you should have a criteria, so then you know what needs answering what gaps need filling then you might find sufficient evidence. Firstly i gave you one to begin with, for your convenience i gave the same to Pai mei.

OK . my criteria is .

If say that I have scientific testable evidence that the ignition temperature of paper is paper 233°C (451°F).You can then apply that temperature to paper and test the
statement ,if it is wrong you can reject it but if it is right you then must accept it


fullywired

All i can say is that let other people believe what they want and let me also do the same, as long as no one is trying to force their beliefs to other people, I think we would be much happier

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personal experience tells me that no religion should not be absolete. I am going to begin a new topic to cover this so go there to read about it.

Religion is very flawed. Personally I believe in Christ and his teachings, and not of organized religion. I think Christ in his purest form was against those, about making money, and confining society as a whole. What I have learned is it is all about a 1v1 relationship with your Creator, and love...that's all that matters.

I don't think Christ was against making money. I think he was against cheating people.

Religion with rituals and priests and going to church, yes it should be obsolete. No need to worship any god, no need for all these to feel there is more to us than what we experience now.

And who was truly wiser? The monk, who merely appreciated the beauty of the full moon, or the thief who put that light to practical advantage? (try sneaking through a countryside, to the foot of a mountain, and into a hut, on a night without a full moon.)
Actually i'm with you. This is also a beautiful ,and simple, illustration of how humanity has allowed greed, and mankinds application of knowledge, to outpace our ethical and spiritual development.