Okay, I bet this has been asked a few times before, buuuut, I figured I'd ask here, since some people seem quite understanding and nice from what I've read.

The bible itself says that 'man shall not lie with another man', however, if God technically 'created' each and everyone of us, then that means he created who we are. So, off to my question.

How can being gay be a sin if God himself created it?

I just ask, because I grew up in a Baptist household(am agnostic now), and I just happen to be gay.

I'd appreciate some form of answers.

i dont think it mentions being gay is a sin int he new testiment....im probs wrong....im christian and i dont believe that being Gay is a sin. and any christian who does is Judging the person wich is a sin 2 LOL

In Judaism, the fact that a person is born with a certain inclination towards a particular sin does not mean that a person is exempt from correcting his/herself. It is the view of Judaism that all aspects of our nature can be reformed and refined through Torah.

Also, I should mention that "being gay" is not a sin. Having sex with a member of the same sex is.

A short article that might shed light on the Bible's stance -


The Bible says nothing specifically about the homosexual condition, but its condemnation of homosexual conduct are explicit. The scope of these strictures must, however, be carefully determined. Too often they have been used as tools of a homophobic polemic which has claimed too much.

The exegesis of the Sodom and Gibeah stories (Genesis 19:1-25; Judges 19:13-20, 48) is a good case in point. We must resist D.S Bailey's widely-quoted claim that the sin God punished on these occasions was a breach of hospitality etiquette without sexual overtones (it fails to explain adequately both the double usage of the word "know" ( Hebrew yada) and the reason behind the substitutionary offer of Lot's daughters and the Levite's concubine); but neither account amounts to a wholesale condemnation of all homosexual acts. On both occasions the sin condemned was attempted homosexual rape, not a caring homosexual relationship between consenting partners.

The force of the other Old Testament references to homosexuality is similarly limited by the context in which they are set. Historically, homosexual behaviour was linked with idolatrous cult prostitution (1 Kings 14:24; 15:12; 22:46). The stern warnings of the levitical law (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13) are primarily aimed at idolatry too; the word "abomination" (Hebrew to eba) for example, which feature in both these references, is a religious term often used for idolatrous practices. Viewed strictly within their context, then, these Old Testament condemnations apply to homosexual activity conducted in the course of idolatry, but not necessarily more widely than that.

In Romans 1, Paul condemned homosexual acts, lesbian as well as male, in the same breath as idolatry (v23-27), but his theological canvas is broader than that of Leviticus. Instead of treating homosexual behaviour as an expression of idolatrous worship, he traces both to the bad 'exchange' fallen man has made in departing from his Creator's intentions (verse 25). Seen from this angle, every homosexual act is unnatural, not because it cuts across the individuals natural sexual orientation (which, of course, it may not) or infringes Old Testament Law, but because it flies in the face of God's creation scheme for human sexual expression.

Paul makes two more references to homosexual practice in other Epistles. Both occur in lists of banned activities and strike the same condemnatory note. In 1 Corinthians 6:9, practicing homosexuals are included among the unrighteous who will not inherit the kingdom of God (but with the redemptive note added, "such were some of you"); and in 1 Timothy 1:9, they feature in a list of "the lawless and disobedient". The latter is especially important because the whole list represents an updated version of the Ten Commandments. Paul parallels the 7th commandment (on adultery) with a reference to "immoral persons" and "sodomites", words which cover all sexual intercourse outside marriage, whether heterosexual or homosexual. If the Decalogue is permanently valid, the significance of this application is heightened still further.

It has been suggested that the meaning of "sodomites" (Greek arsenikoites) in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 may be restricted to that of "male prostitute". Linguistic evidence to support this view is lacking, however, though the word itself is certainly rare in literature of the New Testament period. it seems beyond reasonable doubt that Paul intended to condemn homosexual conduct (but not homosexual people) in the most general and theologically broad terms he knew. His three scattered references fit together in an impressive way as an expression of God's will as he saw it. As Creator, Law-Giver and King, the Lord's condemnation of such behaviour was absolutely plain.

(Quoted from the New Bible Dictionary, 21st Century edition, pp. 478-479)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Though this doesn't address the concept of whether it is genetic (ie natural) or environmental, but nevertheless, this is the biblical view. If you're not a Christian though (you said you're agnostic), there's no reason for you to be bound to Christian Bible-based values. Hope that helps

I think we put too much emphasis on the sex thing. The NT didn't mention homosexuality, nor did Jesus. I would think if it was such an "abomination" he would have most definitely said something about it.

It does mention it as PA posted but also as PA posted if you are not a Christian it does not apply. IMHO I think some Christians (and non-Christians) put to much emphasis on making others believe as they do. Though many Christians are happy following for themselves and do not really try to have others believe as they do.

I, myself, am not bound to the ways of the bible. I haven't even really read through the entire thing, or even read barely any of it.

But as are the replies this topic has gotten, basically neither God or Jesus ever said that homosexuality itself(sex or no sex) was a sin? Just what the apostles or whatever did? If so, I'd like to know why they said it if it didn't come from Jesus or God's own mouth.

Also, if I were to become Christian again, I myself wouldn't live the Bible word for word, as I think the Bible is more of a guide on how to live a good life instead of what some Christians make of it today, if that makes sense?

The Bible doesn't teach that homosexuality is a sin.

Well then, I must be very confused.

It teaches that having sex with a person of the same sex is a sin, but being attracted to the same sex is not a sin.

actually, it doesn't really even say that, or not clearly. Like Lt. Ripley I believe the context might be missing from the Bible. I believe the author was actually speaking of temple prostitution practiced by some cultures of that era. Unfortunately most Bible believers believe the Bible to complete and inerrant. I do not.

I had heard that somewhere too, that when it said may not lay with a man as one lays with a women, it was saying men weren't allowed to be prostitutes.

I know, but Judaism-wise, the interpretation is a prohibition against overall sex with a member of the same sex. We believe that there is context missing, but that the oral tradition fills in that context.

you've opened a can of worms. lol.

If you mean me, well I believe that there's nothing like a healthy debate. But, not if things get out of hand.

Plus, I think I like this forum section. It may help me gain some new beliefs and such.

Thanks guys, and keep posting if you want.

the context of the condemnation in the scriptures can be taken by the other things being talked about. by this method, any sexual act as part of a religious act is condemned (ie-idolatrous prostitution) and sex with multiple partners outside of marriage, or if you prefer a lifetime commitmitment as partners in the business of life.

I don't believe God created homosexuality. He didn't create murder, it was a result from sin (or so I believe).

Also, on the point someone made about calling homosexuality a sin being judging them which is a sin, I believe judging someone and pointing out what they have done wrong is 2 different things. I think paul wrote that we need to correct people so they do not sin. I may be wrong though

I realise this post probably makes me seem homophobic but i'm not.

Can you tell me where that quote is from, because I'm pretty sure the next part says "because God does not like that" and I've forgotten which book and chapter its from.

Anywho, the my opinion's going to be pretty biased because I'm Agnostic too, but this is the downfall of religions. They aren't flexible, and when they pretend to be, it usually isn't the same religion anymore. This is why I gave up on conforming to a religion or believing anything mystic that they would say. The bible was written thousands of years to go and in those thousands of years there have been great men and women who have come to much greater realizations than the bible has. The thing I believe in is human intellect and that we can change our minds and our opinions and that we still have things to learn. The bible states rules and regulations concerning life, that are deemed too holy to be changed; this is wrong. In reality, to be a true Christian, which would mean living by the literal sense of the bible, you would have to have lived 2000 years ago, when the bible actually dealt with your concerns. The bible today, in my opinion, is obsolete. It does not deal with our current concerns. It does not talk about global warming or the rising oil prices or the conflicts in the middle east; it talks about things that happened back then.

Now you'll get a lot of fanatics and innocent believers telling you that Christianity is loose, it's flexible, there's room for change. And they'll say that things in the bible do apply today. Well in reality, they don't, and the only way to do this is by trying to change Christianity to fit to today's problems. Well that's all nice, but when you change a religion, then...you're in a new religion there...and you've kind of gone against your beliefs. So really, you're just following the pack by doing this. Now given, some things in the bible are still relevant today, for example, the question of how the world will end, but that question, and others like it, have been relevant since the beginning of time.

If you want to be a homosexual, then go ahead, be it. Don't look to some text written by people who you don't know about a god that you're told about. Any belief you believe, any god you love, any religion that yours; it should come from you. There is no way that you can have information of Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism, etc from birth; but what do you have from birth? You have your own mind, your own ideas and your own thoughts. You should create your own beliefs from what YOU experience, not be converted from your own free mind to the collective mind of some powerful group. In the words of Thomas Edison in one of my favourite skits from Family Guy:

"Hey, figure it out for yourself man!"

While I understand that some cant help the way they are being gay.... God did not create Adam and Adam....
I point out...not at...

A member of my family is gay too and "cant help it" ...a couple very close friends of mine are gay....
I love them for WHO they are, not WHAT they are...

bLESSINGS

I know you have nothing against gay people, so don't get the wrong idea that I'm trying to judge you in that manner, but this is where I find religious ignorance. The saying God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve goes a long way in pointing this out. First of all, I find it annoying when people use the bible as evidence to prove a point because it is literally one source that they find is viable, because in reality, it isn't. It is so parallel to a work of fiction and a great deal of the world takes it as fact with absolutely no reason but "Amen" or I believe.
The second point I'm trying to make here is really my main point. Christians believe in spirituality and things that aren't material and such, for even Jesus your lord and god said to release yourselves of possessions if you wanna follow God. Astondingly this completely contradicts the biological fact that men and women are necessary to be placed together in order for reproduction to take place. Homosexuality is on a spiritual level, not a biological level, and so, if anything, the bible should do nothing but approve of homosexuality because it is the act of finding love for those of that group (btw, I'm not, just if anyone's wondering). And who knows, maybe humans will do a little thing we like to do called evolving; and maybe in a distant future there won't be a biological need to restrict men and women to be the equation that equals life.

Where have all the Christians gone???? The bible doesn't say being gay is a sin? "I'm a Christian but I don't believe being gay is wrong." ????????? Are you serious?

What's wrong with you people? Wake up! Take your brains out of the washing machine that is the government media complex!

If lusting after a married woman is considered a sin like adultery, then of course lusting after the same sex (being gay) is considered a sin just like the act itself!

Please so called Christians, use common sense and get back to reality!

............<<>> (What does the Bible says about homosexuality?)

The Bible says that it is an abomination for a man to lie with a man as with a woman, or a woman to lie with a woman as with a man (Lev.18:22; 20:13) The Bible says that because of certain abominations such as homosexuality, a land will vomit out its inhabitants (Lev.18:25). The apostle Paul called it "shameful," the result of being given up by God to "vile passions" (Rom.1:24-27).

In the Old Testament, those who practiced these things were removed from the congregation of Israel by execution. We are told in the New Testament that those who practice homosexuality will not enter the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9,10). The apostle Paul shows homosexuality as a final order of rebellion against God. When people exchange the truth of God for a lie, and begin to worship the creature instead of the Creator, they are given up to evil. When values are turned up side down and moral anarchy appears, men burn with lust for other men and woman burn for woman, and they will receive in there own bodies the punishment for their actions (Rom.1:22-27). From a biblical standpoint, the rise of homosexuality is a sign that a society is in the last stages of decay.

It is so sad when people call evil good & good evil.......................JoeyCastaneda56.....................

Not if some of the cultural context is missing from the Bible, which I believe a LOT is. I believe very strongly the author is talking about temple prostitution to be honest.

I don't think being in a life long, loving, committed, equal same sex partnership is a sin. I do however think it's a sin to be in an unloving, unequal, or abusive relationship no matter what sexes are involved.

God doesn't care about plumming, God cares about equal and loving partnerships between people. I will NEVER believe differently. And I'm a hetrosexual Christian woman.

As the article PA posted indicated ANY sexual activity outside of the life-long, exclusive, relationship between a man and a woman which God established is sin. From that standpoint homosexual activity is no different from extra-marital or pre-marital sexual activity, it's all sin because it occurs outside of the relationship God established. I continue to ask though: Why worry about any one particular sin, we all commit such a wide variety of them that it's kind of useless to ask if THIS or THAT is really a sin or not, isn't it?

More and MORE WOLVES IN SHEEPS CLOTHING!!!!!! HOW WILL THE FLOCK SURVIVE TO SEE THE RETURN OF ITS' MASTER????

Sex. The penis complements the vagina. If you use them together, you can mate, and breed.

You can do other stuff with those sexual organs. Gay *spam filter*. Heterosexual *spam filter*. Sheep. Light sockets. You get the picture.

The Old Testament mentions little on homosexuality. Though it does mention it. Paul in the New Testament mentions it several times.

Jesus never really mentions it. Other than his quote from the OT "a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh" etc.

If I was homosexual, I wouldn't be Christian. But I wouldn't give up readiong what Jesus taught, cus he had cool things to say. But I'd avoid most churches. And I wouldnt give up searching for the truth about life. Don't let religious nuts get you down.

Jesus dude, that has got to be one of the silliest things I've ever heard. Really, what you're saying is that lusting is wrong. Now I don't really care about rules that were or were not written in stone that may or may not have been by this God fellow of the bible; but according to you're saying that lusting is a sin. But do you think these gay people all go only for sex? I mean if they do, how many straight people go only for sex? I'm pretty sure that a great deal of gay people are actually looking for love, not for sex, probably the same percentage as the percentage of straight people who are looking for love and not sex. So really, what is your problem with people looking for love?

*Imature mode* *giggles* you said penis and vagina

.............<<>>As I have said in the past. My younger brother was gay. As a Christian I never stopped loving him any less because He was gay. I loved my brother with all my heart. It was the sinful life that he lead that I did not like. You know it is funny most gay people think Christians hate them. As a Christian I do not hate gay people it is their sin I have a problem with. Gay people think Christians judge them. We do not. The Word of God does. All we do is tell gay people what the Word of God says about their lifestyle. You do not have to accept what the Word of God says about being gay. If you want to be gay be gay. You do not have to answer to us. And if there is a real God in the end you will stand before Him not me. Back to my brother, he contracted aids from one of his lovers. Just before he passed away. He gave his heart to Jesus Christ. So I shall see him in heaven....................JoeyCastaneda56.

Yes, Hewak...Essence is correct...The bible tells us, that thinking it, is the same as doing it...

Because I beleive in reincarnation (there goes my outside the box again as a Christian) it coud be that the soul/spirit ended up in a wrong body...and could explain why some end up gay..They are like that from birth and in their growing up just end up what they end up being. Perhaps a male spirit ended up in a fml body and vise versa?????

What do ya think?

I can only hope he best for my stepson too... finding redemption that is...wether now or later....
Im sorry to hear your brother is not here any longer...But we know where he is now...and thats a ok place...
Has he ever come to you since he left?

Well genetically we're all supposedly born genderless and there's a little kick to give us that special chromosome that makes us male or female. Now the thing is, no one says that that chromosome that makes us biologically male or female also makes us mentally and 'spiritually' male or female. In this sense, there is really nothing that makes us male or female other than our physical appearance. Everything else that makes us manly or womanly is all created by culture based on how we look physically. So it was only a matter of time before people began to say that they disagree with society; that they don't fit the male or female role, that they believe they are biologically a male meaning that society expects them to act like a male, but really, because we're human, we can act however we want to act. It's society that tells us we're wrong, not nature.

exactly... I figure that maybe for those who don't get it God will show up as a gay drag queen looking fabulous in heels.

the holy trinity redo -

PRICELESS!!!

I can only answer your heart felt question respectively as I see it deserves, as straight up and clean and as honest as I can, here it is, find you own true self, you inner heart my friend, and there you find peace and you will know God, every other thing else will not give you such an hanest answer, because every other answer will not come from within you, and that is from the great depth of which your Question is your so very deep question is asked…look inward my friend that humbly siad is my answer… if peace be within your Heart...so shall you be...that is where you will see god, as there are a million books some enon old best salers half to tell you yes and half to tell you no, but in all, you will forever be desprately serching...look inward and love what you find...Pavot

Pavot,
Very spiritually wise advice!

I cannot lie, and I can say to him/her even to you to search within these millions of books or one book, or three Books, because this hearted person has only at most one hundred years but I am thinking maybe less, and inward is the answer it is Instantaneous, who am I to say someone is only half when we are rally all the same, who am I to segregate any even my own self and say you are wrong, when we are all wrong and when we are all human fallible, we are all the same...

God, the Great Spirit can only be found within our selves, the children have been showing us our hearts all along, but many don’t see the children, many harm the wee children, nor do many people use their hearts for any other good, who am I? I am a reflection of what you put forth…the Fruit of Spirit is before us all...this tree of Life is before us evey monent of our lives...

And I may not even be thinking this deep tomarrow as my mind is not always in this perfect balence... no ones is... so again Look within and you will find what that which you are seeking...

Pavot

I try to keep my tree pruned to produce good fruit.... Im glad you walked along the path next to where I planted my roots!

I find it a good place to be.... we are where we are.... its a good place. Within.....

You know something, this may not sound very stable, but I went over, and you are not even going to believe the colors and Plants and lack of any death and decayed matter, no shadows of the awesome bright all engulfing all surrounding light, no negative energies of heart what so ever only Agape, extreme Agape, but if there is a place for the negative, I don’t want to ever visit it, because if it is the opposite of where I went, felt and saw, it is one very dark and ill hearted place messed up lonely place…

I know how crazy does that sound, but really, you will have to connect in spirit and go for yourself, and Like me, you will not want to return back here my friend, there was nothing of Man Made religion about it, but for at all and all engulfing Agape felt, you just ain’t even going to believe it….Pavot

Its all about the loving light my friend.... I know.... How central do you get?


Close to center or perifial?

Both my Friend, and in that you cannot get any closer then that... You cannot get any closer then Agape because his Agape is already within you, one only need to connect, too tap in/tune in... I sure wish I could put Man made name tags and labels upon everything, but then that is segregation again now isn't it... and God and His Holly Spirit/Agape Spirit-- anything in Spirit/Other Realm cannot and does not conform to any Earthly Human Moldings or rules no Mather who or how hard they try to do so...


And this link will show you the only church I will ever attend ever again, it where the Spirit is my friend--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UJCrb9mVeU

Pavot

I think what it all comes down to is that homosexual relationships do not (usually) breed children. This results in less new followers for a religion so they are bound to be against it.

Thanks for all the answers, guys. But what I truly believe, even as an Agnostic, if I were to still be Christian, God created each and everyone of us himself, so technically he knew who we were/are going to be. I'm not saying that the exact path was set by God, as we make our own choices, but that he gave us our personalities, our ability to think, and our ability to feel for others. This includes attraction.

So, if what I think is true, then being gay is not a choice, or a 'lifestyle' as some say. He made us they way we are, so he made us straight, gay, or bi. So, technically, it cannot be a sin if he made us the way we are.

I come with this theory simply because Christians do go on about how God created each and everyone of us to be special. Wouldn't being gay be 'special' then?

Just a quick thought I thought I'd mention.

ditto. honest and wise. it's all an inside job.

Romans 1:26-28 clearly show that the Bible calls homosexuality (even though the word itself is not used) unnatural.

v27- "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

Not only that, in Genesis 2:23-24, we are told that marriage is for 1 man and 1 woman because woman was made from man and in marriage, they become one flesh again (meaning that the possessions of the man are now the possessions of the woman and visa versa, even their bodies). This doesn't just exclude homosexuality, but also being married to/together with an animal, object, and it excludes polygamy.


Sin is disobedience to God's Word. When God created everything, he created it perfectly. That means there was no sin. Adam and Eve were perfect. However, when the ate of the tree which God said not to, sin entered the world and mucked up God's perfect creation. And because of that when a person is born, instead of being perfect, they have a sinful nature, or an incline to do evil.

Psalm 139:13 says, "For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb." God does create everyone one of us, even as he created Adam and Eve (even though he doesn't do it the same way). He gave all of us the ability to think, reason, and feel for others.

He gave us the ability to make choices for ourselves, and often times, because of our incline to do evil, we make a bad choice. God does not stop us from doing it, nor does he make us do it, though he is heart broken when we do it.

See, God did not create us to do evil, but we rebelled against him, and now it is impossible for us not to do a good amount of evil in our lifetime. God did not create anyone to be a homosexual. To be a homosexual is a choice, just as to be a murderer is a choice. God will not stop us from being a homosexual and he doesn't cause us to be a homosexual, but he is heart broken because of homosexuality.

Everyone is born with the capacity to be a homosexual. This does not mean God created everyone to be a homosexual, just that everyone could be one because of our sinful nature. It is a choice to obey God or to follow our own lust, which would be sin. James 1:14 says, "But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust."

But isn't that the big issue that is trying to be addressed - why are gay relationships involving sex considered as so much worse than the actions of heteroseuxals outside of marriage. As God sees it, it's the same. it's the paradox of homosexuality - it's no different to any other sin, but yet it causes all this argument and disagreement. Why should it do that, when a heterosexual lusting after a married woman be seen as different than when a homosexual has sex. Biblically speaking, they are both sin and both bring us away from God.

That's been the contention from the very beginning. People consider us who see homosexuality as wrong, and call us "homophobes", yet somehow ignore that by those same criteria we are "lustaphobes".

It's not a matter of "which sin is worse", because all sin is the same, the action of homosexuality no different. But, and it may just be my imagination, but it seems to be the non-Christians who push this view against Christians, as if it somehow makes us evil (or at the least, backwards).

Or.... let me try putting it another way - has a Christian ever started a thread on this site about the evils of homosexuality? Or has it always been instigated by non-Christians in the hope to show Christians as bigots. I could be wrong, but primarily every thread on the topic has been started by a non-Chrsitian asking "why is it wrong" rather than a Christian writing "it is wrong". To Christians, homosexuality is no different to all other sin, so for us it's no big deal. But non-Christians want to make a big deal of it, and they repeatedly start threads to try and find out why.

*note, this is of course not taking into consideration the fundamentalist views such as Westboro - rather referring to the primary views of conservative Christianity throughout the world*

Just something to consider.....

Not to be too picky, but I only saw a waterfall. How is that a church? It may be a place of wonder and beauty, but it is just a place. A building we call a "church" though is also only a building, and is not a Church. The word "Church" is defined as a gathering of believers. This can be at a building, at someone's house, or even at a coffee shop. And if you went with a gathering of believers to that waterfall, there also would be your Church.

I understand your point, Pavot, and from a modern perspective I see what you are trying to say. But if you go back to what the word "church" actually means, it does not describe a building or a waterfall, or any meeting place of any kind.

Just a thought,

Then God also made pedophile's that way?????

And no, I'm not trying to equate your sexual views with pedophilia. I understand that two homosexuals are engaging in consensual relationships whereas pedophiles take advantage of relationships. But the argument still exists - if God makes them that way, then technically it cannot be a sin if he made usthem the way wethey are......... right?

It isnt a sin in my view for the very reason that you say.