We have been talking for a while how if God knows everything then free-will is an illusion.


What if God really does know everything. If God knows absolutly everything, couldn't this imply that he could know the results of every chooce that you have in your life. But doesn't know what path you will take until you reach that point.


For instances, I watched wanted today. The girl in the movie tells the hero how if an assassion had killed the man that killed her father he would still be alive. But as a result of her father being killed she was recruited into the assassion guild. I will stop ;here so I don't ruin the movie for anyone who wants to go see it this weekend.


What if God has the same problem. Lets use Adam and the fruit of knowledge. God knows that Adam only has two chooces here eat it or not. If Adam eats the fruit he introduces death to the planet. If he doesn't eat it Adam and Eve are going to be alone for a very long time. God does not know the chooce that he is going to make until he makes it.


Thus we have God knowing everything and free will is no longer an illusion.

and after he makes it, he knows the rest of whats gonna happen? im lost. cause if thats not the case, hes like everyone else. we Know they have a Choice, but were not sure what theyre gonna to make, or how that will affect them.
but on a side note, DONT see wanted, read the graphic novel. sooo much better. and besides, they left out the one part in the movie that made the story original. so read up

Ok let me stop you here and say something about how I was taught.
From what I have been taught God knows everything, what choices you make, when you make them, and why.
Free-will is not an illusion, we get to make whatever choices we want, God just knows everything about them right down to how they will effect us.
But that's just what I've been taught.

Indeed... God made me an atheist... Who are you to argue with him?




Makes you wonder if he knows all the draws at the end, then why even have a heaven or hell?

"To judge from the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that god created most men simply with a view to crowding hell."
-Marquis de Sade

but if you choose to NOT believe in god or jesus, you go to hell. and he can See youre gonna make that choice.
so free will? my A$$

I'm just stating what I've been taught.
I believe God knows everything.
I'm just saying that He knows all, but allows us to choose.
It's hard to explain.

And no! God did NOT make you atheist, you did that on your own!
Don't blame God for everything you've done!

Also, it says in Leviticus 1:3
3.) If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd,
let him offer a male without blemish:
he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the Lord.

So that's showing that God knew what he was going to do.
But the man did it of his own free will

This is what I have been told too.


But what if God sees the big picture. But cannot see the little picture. The reason you have generals on the battle field is because they know what all the units in the battle are doing. They see the big picture. The sargents however only know what each person in his unit is doing. He sees only the small picture. Which is important in a battle both are.


So if God is only able to see the big picture but not he little picture. This is where we get our free will from

You are just kind of making this stuff up as you go along arent you? I mean You arent even trying to back your stuff up with either scripture or logic. Just kind of flinging it out there to see what happens...

I don't believe there is any scripture to back up this theory. As for logic, I am not sure if it can back this up either again because non of us can see the big picture.

So yes this one was flung out there to see what happens and what everyone else thinks.


So everyone throw your thoughts out there. In this case teachings won't help much since most of us have been taught the same basic thing about God knowing everything.


This include the Jews, the Christians, the Muslims, and the pagans who believe in a god(I think)

double post

god - "oh no no no. you aaaaall have free will, dont you worry"
humans - "YEAH!!!!"
god - "*coughjustthecatchifyoudontbelieveinmeyoullgotohellandrotforeternitycough*"
humans - "wait.....whatd he say?"

This thread is an unexplained mystery.

In the list of new posts I came upon it as having 0 viewers but six replies.

God knows everything.
that might be the problem. Spirituality vs Skepticism danielost 6 0 Today, 10:54 AM
Last post by: danielost

Anyway, I am now going to monitor new posts for when such a episode will occur again.



oslove

^ nice contribution oslove, Now, moving on...

Just in case no one has mentioned it yet...


There is an ongoing movement among very good Christians and learned at that who postulate and argue that God does not know everything, and that will solve the problem of God's knowing everything and not doing something about it, and man's free will.



Do some search and you will find that movement and the ensuing controversy.





oslove

thx. but im more concerned with other things here.
like i know theres Obviously a problem, if im told man DOES have free will, he was given it. but using it comes at a price of going to hell, if you dont beleive in the 'Entity', that apparently gave it to us. anyone else find that odd?
thats crap in my opinion.

Salaam (Peace)

Allah is Al 'Aleem - "The All-Knowing". Allah sees us as we are now, as we were in the past, and as we will be. We cannot see this way because we are bound by space, and time. However, Allah is not bound by space and time, which are His creations. Allah's "vision" is not restricted to the present as is ours. The mystery of Free-will and Omniscience could perhaps be solved if we could view existence unbound by Past, Present, and Future. I certainly cannot, and I'm not sure if Humans have the capability to do that during the life of this world?

Allah! There is no deity except He - The Ever-Living, The Self-Subsisting. Eternal. No weariness can seize Him, nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that can intercede in His presence except as He permits? He knows what appears to His creatures, before or after or behind them . Nor will they compass any of His knowledge except as He wills. His Throne extends over the heavens and the earth. And He feels no fatique in guarding and perserving them. For He is The Most High, The Supreme."

(Surah 2:255)

uh oh. ive heard allah and god are the same, but other muslims say they Are different...this could be interesting.
celebrity death match allah vs. god (If they are not the same)

Salaam (Peace)

Literally the two words "God" and "Allah" do not mean the same thing, but both are used to refer to the "God" of Abraham, Moses, David and so forth. Some Muslims object to the use of the word "God" for "Allah" because the concept attached to the word "God" is Christian-for the most part, at least in their perception. However, it is a fact that Arabic speaking Christians use the word "Allah", even when saying "Jesus Son of God".

if God is all powerful and all knowing there is no problem. God would know it all anything less and it wouldn't be an all knowing all powerful God.

choice is the illusion that allows us as human to live this existence . spiritual beings having a human experience. IMO. why ? I don't know. no one does. just guesses.

think of it , life , as a merry go round ride at a fair that God built. And God is also the parent off on the side watching you go round. you get off when it's done and excitedly tell God what it was like . some get sick , some drop their hotdog in the dirt , some cry cause they don't want to get off. some cry because their afraid of the ride. some get to ride the pretty pony and some have to sit in the bench. and all have the same view of God just from different vantages. none better than the other. all you do is ride and hold on.

And God ? well God built the ride , painted the ponies , God knows how long it will last , how many turns it makes , how the machine works , ect ............ knows every little stitch of it.


that kinda follows this from the bible -

Scripture says to Pharoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed on all the earth." [Exodus 9:16] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"[Isaiah 29:16, 45:9] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"

Romans 9:20-2

for those of the we have free will arguement. I believe God let's us think we have free will- . But God is the dealer and God's will goes according to plan. all for a purpose and reason.

'free will' itself IMO let's us live this human existence like an actor that gets so into a role that they lose themselves. We are lost in the role and God the director .

hmm nice analogy actually However, if a tornado sweeps through the carnival the day after the merry go round is built and placed there, why would god do it? why would he put it in a spot that he knows will result in its demise?
like putting us next to a ticking time bomb, the sun. or giving us a universe that is Apparently expanding, and then gonna collapse on itself. makes no sense to me. and why i dont think he did any of this, or can be real.

if this be the case then the concept of God will have to be reworked.

1. First of all, God doesn't plan for things to happen. He exists outside of our reality and is spacetimeless. In his perspective, there is no change. Time is a frozen river where all things happen simultaneously.

2. He lets people choose between good and evil. If he eliminated the ability for humanity to make its own choices, that would be like controlling people like his own puppets and the world like one of those Tycoon games.

3. Everything happens for a reason.

well where was anyone promised the merry go round would last forever ? why not put it in a spot of demise ?

I think it's only a problem when it's viewed that human existence is the pinnacle of all there is . or the Universe all there is.

Is God real ? I can't know for sure . no one can. But I can't say God doesn't exist either for myself. I may find myself one day saying that. I may one day find God is provable too.

yet even if God does not exist ...... the sun will still end as will the universe. people will die horribly and people will celebrate life too.

Well I wouldn't think because a force greater than ourselves knows everything it would blunder free will. It has long since been an argument with some of free will versus predestination. I think of it like a game of chess. It could be possible to know the winner but yet the opponents made whatever moves they wanted even with free will the outcome is the same regardless but does not take away from free will. It is just knowing the outcome based on the those decisions of free will. However for myself I do believe there is a main road with many avenues to take and the choice is always ours but the outcome will be the same because the goal is the same. Make sense? Nah not to me either I'm just rambling trying to make sense of it myself honestly.

1) If that was the case he would know exactly what would happen before he created it again meaning choice was an illusion. If he created and he knows all he created us all as we are and he will have known every event and every outcome and every decision.

2) See above.

3) It probably doesn't.

no. he says worship me, or dont. its your call, you have free will.....but just a heads up, if you dont worship me you go to hell. thats got Nothing to do with good and evil. religion almost IS controlling people like puppets, trying to convert others, and argue with those who share opposing views.

agreed. so why put us near it? or not that, but why create one that Will kill us?
and you are right, we cant say yes it does or doesnt exist.

No. Either he knows everything or not. You are trying to have it both ways.

I am not saying that God or allah doesn't know everything. What I am asking is it possible for God to know every possible choose that a person must make his/her whole life. But not know which choice the person will take until the person decides. But then Allah doesn't promise free-will does he.

Well, scripture aside, and just making the asumptions of this paragraph, you have a logical flaw...You say god knows everything. (omnipotence). Then you say God does not know the choice adam will make, until he makes it. Why would that be? Where does that rule come from? Where is that logic? You just said god was omnipotent in your first line...

And then you go on to say god knows everything and free will is no longer an illusion. Ummm, that doesnt even make sense, it a non sequitur to say the least. It doesnt add up. The logical flaws are astounding, and this is the way it always is. My god is right and perfect, even though it makes no sense whatsoever...

But even the scripture that supports it isnt much better, so I guess it really doesnt matter either way...in the end, whatever you believe is what you believe...just as long as you dont try to push it on other people I dont care...

Well, scripture aside, and just making the asumptions of this paragraph, you have a logical flaw...You say god knows everything. (omnipotence). Then you say God does not know the choice adam will make, until he makes it. Why would that be? Where does that rule come from?


That is what the question is.

God has never said that he was perfect. others have but God hasn't at least not in the bible.

Free will may be somewhat of an illusion. We may be "preprogrammed" by such things as heredity or DNA, for example, by conditioning, or by our inherent nature. Given human nature and its inherent strengths and weaknesses, this will also deduct from free will. People will be people. And who said we don't have instincts? We have the instinct to survive, sexuality, and maybe others we don't recognize (or I can't think of ) So my point of view is that our individual free will is not absolute but limited. The choices that individuals can consciously make, and really act on, will be few.

"God knows everything."
Let's not talk about God, but about knowledge.
Do we really have any kind of concept of knowing everything? On an individual level, knowing everything is unattainable, fictitious. It's not something we can relate to individually. The individual's knowledge is always going to be limited. (For example, it's said that one human being can only learn up to 26 foreign languages. However, of languages of the world, there are literally thousands.)

Collectively, however, is a different thing. Our collective knowledge has increased dramatically over the past 20 to 30 years. Humans are fueled by a basic urge to learn, to discover. (I think that's one urge that brings us to forums like this, among other things.) As long as we continue to have this urge to learn and discover (which IMO is like breathing) there would be no limits. Every individual would still not be able to know everything, but humanity as a whole will continue to increase its store of knowledge over the years. That seems inevitable.

So where does that bring us with respect to God? Since the Supreme Being knows everything, that means that we can only attain Him collectively, not individually. Certainly not every individual will be able to do so, but I do believe we can as a whole.

Besides, we've already done it to some extent, but we still have some growing and discovering to do. However, along with our mind, we also need to develop our heart. I don't see how our development could ever be complete until we become more and more like God in this respect.
Because the other fact that we can know about God is His infinite mercy and compassion, even though some individuals will never be able to get there.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

God is asserted to be "omniscient"; to be omniscient means to have all knowledge, having absolute knowledge of past, present and future with 100% certainty of what will occur, has occurred, or what is currently occurring. Now back to our original point of topic "free-will vs omniscience".... If God is omniscient, then logically speaking he knows absolutely everything you have done, are doing, and will do in the future; there is no arguing against that point, it's axiomatic. Now because of God's omniscience does that conflict with human free-will? It's a tricky thing to distinguish.

Free-will: The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will. (dictionary.com)

If God has a "divine plan" or blueprint for how, when, or why things will occur in the future of our universe, then no, humans can't have free-will because all actions would be predestined by God's plan; anything someone does can just be the result of what God has "planned" for them to do, so free-will would not be involved. But if God has no "divine plan" then humans and God's omniscience are compatible, just because God would know your every action still would not prevent you from choosing to perform them. You could choose 1 over 2, either way, regardless of what you choose God isn't preventing you from making that choice. So in the end, human free-will doesn't conflict with omniscience, but the problem of human free-will is not what one should be attacking when it comes to omniscience, what people should be looking at is not the free-will of humans when compared to omniscience, but the free-will of God! If God is omniscient and knows past, present, and future absolutely, that also includes him knowing his own actions, past, present and future before they occur.

By definition free-will is the ability to make free choices, but with that ability to make choices it also involves the possibility of you to change your mind, otherwise you are a robot and operate off of determainism. If God is omniscient he himself cannot have a free-will. All his actions would be done purely based on what he himself saw himself doing in the future, with no possibility to change his actions. With that being said, God doesn't have the ability to "change his mind", if he did, he wouldn't be omniscient. So you can't have it both ways. Which is it? God is either not omniscient, or is omniscient and has no free-will, so he is like some kind of mechanistic robot whose actions are totally based off of his nature. That begs the question, how can a being which lacks a free-will create something which has a free-will? It makes no sense. How would that being be able to construct a free-will while having no knowledge of what it is to be free? For God to know his own future actions, that causes a conundrum. Knowing his future actions prevent free-will and the ability to choose between one thing over another. If God knows all of what he is going to do in the future how can he say "I'm going to do this over this", lol, he can't, because he would only be doing what he saw himself doing, with no choice in the matter. In so many words, God would be subject to his own omniscient knowledge. Danielost, that answers your question. Hopefully some atheist takes it and runs with it.......

But to stray a little deeper, if God knows his own future actions, that also includes his own thoughts and mental processes. Can you imagine knowing your own thoughts in the future before you even think of them? It just gets plain complex and incomprehensible. End.

Excellent post. This pretty much sums up the whole paradox as I see it.

Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."


Christ is speaking not God.


Even if you assume that Christ is God in human form. It is still Christ the human speaking and not Christ the god.

This statement confuses me. So Christ the human is different than Christ the God??

Well, being that if you believe the book, jesus and god are related and jesus has the power to perform miracles as he is part of the trinity, the father/son/holy spirit. Regardless of how you look at it jesus spoke with suposed godlike inspired words all the time. So now that it doesnt fit your purpose, all of a sudden, jesus is just some poor sap who hasnt a clue about what his dad thinks? Come on now? Really. You cant bend the rules to fit your purpose every time.

Yes Christ is speaking, but I think anyone is going to agree that he has the inside scoop as to what is going on with "dear old dad". If jesus claims that dear old dad claims to be perfect, and jesus is the only man on earth to be without sin....then you have to take that at face value...

Wow.

If I jump in a pool of oil and then light a cigarette you will know that I will catch on fire...does that mean you caused the fire, intended it to happen, or wanted me to do it?

God being all knowing doesn't mean we don't have free will...he just knows what are choices and actions will be before we make them.

Who here has a spouse who can always seems to know what your thinking and can predict most of your actions and thoughts? How many parents know their children in the same way? Its kind of like that with God...but he's better at it.

I think there is a big difference between an omnipotent, omniscient being and a good guesser....

Same conclusion I have come to.
We can't, as individuals, even begin to understand omniscience. And collectively we're nowhere near it IMO. But that doesn't stop the human race from learning and discovering because we have that innate urge to do so. I think we're constantly reaching towards omniscience, so to speak. And I don't think this is in defiance of God, but it is so that we can eventually meet Him, collectively.

If there's a Divine Plan for the human race, then I think this is it.

What I'm trying to point out is just because he knows our choices doesn't necessarily mean he made them for us.

God would be outside of the bounds of time. He knows that after I'm done typing this I'm going to go potty...not because he is forcing me to go potty or making my choice of not peeing my pants, but because he exists two minutes into the future where I'm already in the bathroom.

...also God would know that I would have to edit this post because he knows I'm not very smart

I can understand what you are saying(Although I think that you are very smart) in regards to time and god allowing us to make decisions for ourselves. I believe that like space, time has a potential for dimensionality, but that is just my mind tinkering with ideas in looking for answers to common problems. That is a different thread though.

So I can understand where you are coming from in some aspects. As for god knowing everything but yet not knowing what is going to happen up until the moment it happens as in the OP, I think that is just poorly thought out and illogical.

There was also a parental analogy which falls apart as well, since as parents we humans do the best we can to keep our children safe even when our kids are angry at us. Somehow even with the perfect love that this god has for us, some absolutely horrible things happen to us on a daily basis, so he surely doesnt even show the same amount of love that an average human being would for their child, let alone a perfect god. Free will is no excuse for bad things happening; does free will explain headlines like:

I am sorry, free will shouldnt allow an innocent 7 year old boy to get chained up in his own closet and then slowly hacked up and eaten by members of his own family.
Any parent who has the ability to change the outcome of that kind of a nightmare would do so in a heartbeat, even at the expense of their own life, yet somehow everyday the headlines continue on...

So either their is no god, There is a god, but he doesnt care, There is a god and he cares, but he us powerless to do anything (he isnt really a god, by common definition), or???

Ok but I don't see how theist claiming "god is omniscient" is or, can be valid if we humans cannot understand the underlying concept we're trying to prove(omniscience). If we humans don't know what it truly means to be omniscient how can theist go on rants arrogantly claiming "God is omniscient" when the very concept they're trying to prove is beyond they're limited comprehension. Theist are basically claiming: "something I know totally nothing about, exist! "

I mean come on, from what source did humans come to the conclusion the the concept of omniscience even exist or is let alone possible? The only source I've seen is arrogance; humans believe that some how it's possible for "something" out there to be totally omniscient, and then whatever that thing is, claim it as they're personal god. With that, I dunno if humans invoke more of ignorance or arrogance, but they're definitely intermixed. From the ancient days of human history, people thought it was the "thunder god" which made it rain; he controlled the skies. Then when tidal waves or tsunamis swept the earth people thought it was the "god of the sea and water" which controls the waters of the world and casted destructive waves upon humanity when we've made the gods angry. But now, fast forward a couple of centuries and we humans needed to out do ourselves. We figured those gods of the past were silly, impotent and limited, we then had to come up with something better than multiple gods, each endowed with they're own set of abilities. Then, it hit us! "Why are we worshiping these many different gods, which only can do so little by themselves when we can worship one God!?" Oh yeah, we had to go one god further..... "Well Zeus doesn't exist, neither does Aquaman of water and sea, but what about One God? None of these other gods possibly exist, but one god has to! But this God, he doesn't just control rain, water, or fire, he can do anything! He's omnipotent, he can do any and everything! Not only that, he knows everything! Past, present and future! But no, it doesn't stop there, he is also everywhere at once! He's omnipresent, so you can't escape him! But most importantly, he cares for us, he's omni-benevolent, All-Loving. This God is supreme ruler over all that we know, no other god can match him."

And from then on, humanity began it's rapid downfall as organized religion, under one God, spread across the land. From my perspective when I look at human history it's like kids trying to out do each other creating a bigger and better superhero than they're peers. The belief in this superhero like figure has become so deep and widespread until people simply choose to ignore the conundrums, incoherences and outright contradictions which exist within the very concept they themselves created, yet take as absolute truth.

I don't think God would use free will as an excuse to allow bad things to happen. I think the idea is that we somehow learn from bad experiences and events and if God directly changed things(like throw a lightning bolt at a rapist or something) he would prove his existence to everybody and there wouldn't be any faith. Of course such a thing isn't very all merciful or all good but then I'm told God's ethics supercede mine and everything he does is for the best even though it doesn't seem so.

I agree that the parent analogy fails...miserably, maybe a mother in law?
The OP statement also doesn't work without being contradictory to what we know of God.

The coexistence of free will and God being omniscient is not only possible but the least concerning questions considering God's power and nature.

No, the notion of God being omniscient while at the same time having a free will is what fails. How can a being with no free-will or no experience of what it means to be free or to choose, create something else which has a free-will? If theist are to say God has a free-will while at the same time being omniscient we'd have to redefine exactly what it means to have free-will in order to save God from becoming a total contradiction. Faith is also another prerequisite to failure when it comes to God, if God is omniscient(all-knowing) he doesn't need to "test" anyone's faith or anything along those lines because he already knows (the extent of they're belief without proof)-faith. You know it's total lunacy when believers in God think they have free-will when at the same time they follow the ten "command"-ments. Follow these, or else,......doesn't sound like "free-will" to me. Sounds more like that turn or burn mentality. How can a believer have free-will yet follow "command"ments? I wonder what the word "command" implies at all....."to order"? Oh goodie, sounds like god is now provoking humans to use they're 'free-will" or else goto hell. That's not a free-will.

I'd like some theist to explain how it's possible for you to have free-will yet know your future actions without having your "free-will" taken way. If God can't change his mind, he has no free-will. Free will involves having the ability to make one or more decisions with the possibility to change your mind. God can't change his mind, he is omniscient, he would have knew the first time. If God can change his mind he is not omniscient anyway. So either way, there is a price ot pay, omniscience=mindless,choiceless robot, no omniscience= not all knowing. When I say God is nothing more but a robot if he is omniscient, I mean if he knows his own future actions he doesnt have the ability to change them so inturn he's subject to do only what he foresees himself doing; and btw if he cant change his mind he is not omnipotent either(able to do anything). The whole concept itself collapses under contradtictions and incoherency.

we are only spiritual beings having a human experience IMO. one that we agreed and helped decide to have before even getting here. from birth to certain parent(s) , to death and in between all like a play. free will being only a tool that helps keep the human character humanly focused or in the role thereof.

lmfao nice pic. did they rip off captain marvel there? lol although they gave him aquamans face pretty much (newer aquaman)
and yeah, i would agree. it almost seems like 'my god can beat up your god' at times. and everyones God, seems to fit their culture or needs. thats why i cant believe in there just being one, or any.

the op is not a statement it is a question.


fluffy you keep saying it is illogical. No question ever asked is illogical.

How so?