I didn't report to the whole world that the Air Force recovered a flying saucer in 1947, it was the Air Force that reported to the whole world that it captured a flying saucer.

There is someone who can't take a hint on Project Mogul.

Now, Psyche101, you know better than having a dissenting opinion from the Roswell conspiracy profiteers!
Shame on you!




Nothing of the kind. I'm sure the major did his job well as a military intelligence officer.
And if the major had found the wreckage of a UFO, it would have been icing on the cake for him. He would have gone down in history. He would have been Da Man!




Considerations? In 1947?

Hmm...my fish odor detector has been going off for some strange reason.

I'm with another alien buddy and we're tooling along in our space craft one night in July of 1947.

"Hey, Harv," I say. "Get a load of what those earthlings are doing down there in that sandbox they call New Mexico."
"Yeah," says Harv. "Those guys are kinda dumb, aren't they? Hey! What's that flash?"
"That? Oh, that's a lightning bolt, you noob! That's a common weather phenomenon on this planet."
"Would it hurt the ship?"
"This ship? No way! It's made out of indestructible Unobtanium! And think of all the wormholes and speed of light velocities it withstands! Ha! A little flash of lightning won't hurt this ship! Doesn't matter because we'd be safe from it as long as we remain above the clouds."
"Oh, yeah? Well, why don't you move us down into the clouds and let us get struck by that lightning, if you're so sure!"
"What do I look like? Someone with an IQ of only 1000? What if the brass find out? They'd roast us like an Antarean steer over an open fire!"
"Chicken!"
"What did you just call me?"
"Chicken, chicken, chicken!"
"Okay, that does it! Here we go!"

Crack!

Boom!

And the rest, as they say, is history...

Not me!



Now, you are backing off Project Mogul after I added additional information.

Service balloons were not Mogul balloon trains. Just thought I let you know that, and it didn't even carry a rawin device since service balloons were expendable not recovered, so there is no relation between a service balloon and the Roswell incident.

This is what Kevin Randle had said:

"Third, I see nothing to suggest that Flight No. 4 was even launched. According to a diary kept by Dr. Albert Crary, the man in charge of the balloon experiments in New Mexico, Flight No. 4, scheduled for an early morning launch on June 4 was cancelled because of bad weather."

The Air Force reported the capture of a lfying saucer, so the question is: why?

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/daily_record.html

I'm sorry, i must have missed the bit where you were talking about sonobuoys. Why would they be dropping sonobouys over New Mexico?

<gasp!>

Hey, wait a minute!

That can't be! I thought it was Colonel Blanchard that authorized that press release!

Tsk tsk. Somebody has been spinning fiction!

Imagine that!

i beleive marcel stated it was a flying saucer. then was goign to issue that to the press. but had to inform a comanding officer first. then he gave the ok to marcel.
could be wrong though
skkkkyyyyy eeeeaaaaggglllllleeee! assssemmmmbllllleeeee!

Hey, but that's not what this Holy Writ newspaper article says.

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/daily_record.html

What's up? Are there parts of that we're not supposed to believe now?

The order for the press release came from Colonel William Blanchard. Thomas Jefferson Dubose confirmed the fact that the weather balloon explanation was a cover story, and that the material was switched.

"There was a host of people descending on our headquarters seeking information from Ramey... I didn't know what it was. Blanchard [base commander at Roswell] didn't know. Ramey didn't know... McMullen said, Look, why don't you come up with something, anything you can use to get the press off our back? So we came up with this weather balloon story. Somebody got one and we ran it up a couple of hundred feet and dropped it to make it look like it crashed, and that's what we used."

(Interview with reporter Billy Cox , Florida Today, 11/24/91, requoted in Timothy Good, Beyond Top Secret, p. 465 )

In his 1991 affidavit, Dubose stated:

(6) After the plane from Roswell arrived with the material, I asked the Base Commander, Col. Al Clark, to take possession of the material and to personally transport it in a B-26 to Maj. Gen. McMullen in Washington, D.C. I notified Maj. Gen. McMullen, and he told me he would send the material by personal courier on his plane to Benjamin Chidlaw, Commanding General of the Air Material Command at Wright Field [later Wright Patterson AFB]. The entire operation was conducted under the strictest secrecy.

(7) The material shown in the photographs taken in Maj. Gen. Ramey's office was a weather balloon. The weather balloon explanation for the material was a cover story to divert the attention of the press.

Yep, and quite obviously this pertains to the second press release, the one about the weather balloon. Says nothing about the first press release about the "flying disc" that Major Marcel wanted.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice....

Haut also mentioned the fact that Blanchard and Ramey had handled the debris prior to it being shipped to Fort Worth, Texas.

(5) In July, 1947, I was stationed at the Roswell Army Air Base in Roswell, New Mexico, serving as the base Public Information Officer. . . .
(6) I was aware that someone had reported the remains of a downed vehicle by midmorning after my return to duty at the base on Monday, July 7. I was aware that Major Jesse A. Marcel, head of intelligence, was sent by the base commander, Col. William Blanchard, to investigate.
(7) By late in the afternoon that same day, I would learn that additional civilian reports came in regarding a second site just north of Roswell. . . .
(8) On Tuesday morning, July 8, I would attend the regularly scheduled staff meeting at 7:30 a.m. Besides Blanchard, Marcel; CIC [Counterintelligence Corp] Capt. Sheridan Cavitt; Col. James I. Hopkins, the operations officer; Lt. Col. Ulysses S. Nero, the supply officer; and from Carswell AAF in Fort Worth, Texas, Blanchard's boss, Brig. Gen. Roger Ramey and his chief of staff, Col. Thomas J. Dubose were also in attendance. The main topic of discussion was reported by Marcel and Cavitt regarding an extensive debris field in Lincoln County approx. 75 miles NW of Roswell. A preliminary briefing was provided by Blanchard about the second site approx. 40 miles north of town. Samples of wreckage were passed around the table. It was unlike any material I had or have ever seen in my life. Pieces which resembled metal foil, paper thin yet extremely strong, and pieces with unusual markings along their length were handled from man to man, each voicing their opinion. No one was able to identify the crash debris.
(9) One of the main concerns discussed at the meeting was whether we should go public or not with the discovery. Gen. Ramey proposed a plan, which I believe originated from his bosses at the Pentagon. Attention needed to be diverted from the more important site north of town by acknowledging the other location. Too many civilians were already involved and the press already was informed. I was not completely informed how this would be accomplished.
(10) At approximately 9:30 a.m. Col. Blanchard phoned my office and dictated the press release of having in our possession a flying disc, coming from a ranch Northwest of Roswell, and Marcel flying the material to higher headquarters. I was to deliver the news release to radio stations KGFL and KSWS, and newspapers the Daily Record and the Morning Dispatch.

(Bolding mine) Haut would go on to state that Blanchard had personally taken him to "building 84" where he saw the craft recovered north of town, as well as bodies.

This wouldn't have been the same area that Senator Barry Goldwater was denied access to, was it?

As I stated before, had he made such an egregious error, it would have showed up in his evaluations thereafter. There was no drop in his evaluation to lead one to believe that he ever made so great an error. If he had brought about such a media sensation over nothing, this would certainly not be the case. Ramey even registered a mild protest over Marcel's transfer, noting he had nobody to replace him, in the August 19, 1948 evaluation.






It would have been absolutely irresponsible for the government to come forward with the story at that time, just after the war. You can't just announce to the world that we are being visited, but we don't know who they are, where they're from or what they want. Why admit the existence of a potential enemy to whom you have no possibility of defense? I'm sure the public would find that idea comforting.

The government needs answers to those questions before they can make the announcement. Additionally, had they recovered one of these "flying saucers" it would be extremely important to keep it a secret. One can't tell ones friends without telling ones enemies as well. The idea was to keep the Soviets in the dark, and hopefully reverse engineer and utilize the advanced technology that had fallen on their laps. The U-2 was secret for a reason. 60,000 people were involved with the creation of the atom bomb, and even Vice President Harry Truman knew nothing of the project until he was briefed after Roosevelt's death. If you have a new secret weapon that can be used against the enemy, you don't let them know about it. And, for all the U.S. knew, the Soviets could have recovered such an object as well. In the event that the Soviets had reverse engineered the technology, they would have to know how to defend against it.

Senator Barry Goldwater was denied access to a Hanger at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, not building 84 at Roswell. And no, this was not around that time -- that was years later.

So the logical thing for the government to do is cover the whole thing up. Unleash the Army into the area to silence, intimidate, and threaten the local citizenry. How much less comforting can you get than that? Gee whiz! The military is supposed to protect us, not abuse us!

Another thing, why didn't the aggrieved citizens of the area come forward a short time later? Wouldn't they have sought some kind of recourse as soon as possible? Wouldn't they have been seeking some kind of justice for their mistreatment by the military? Nowadays, US citizens have become so jaded that many would readily believe in abuses by US military personnel, even if they were concocted. That wasn't universally true in that era. Such an incident would have been perceived as beyond shocking.

Nah, I ain't buyin it!

C'mon now - the Army, the Air Force, etc. do exactly what they are told. If they are told to silence the population, they will. If they are told to cover something up, they will. Try listening to some of the actual military personnel involved regarding the incident - in this case, General Thomas J. DuBose:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=176vDgTeoDA

I heard Maj. General DuBose expess the opinion that it was a coverup, yes. I also heard him talk about the orders that he received from the General about not talking about it. I also heard the part about him being what is now called a micro-manager, that he wanted to know about every facet of the operation. What I didn't hear was any mention in relation to the military going after the citizens of the area and "silencing" them. And I listened to the video well, twice.

So maybe the government got to it before I could listen to it and cut out the appropriate parts.
Yeah, that's gotta be it...

There isn't a nice, tidy, single, all-knowing repository of information regarding this case, you have to actually dig a little. Try reading some - "Witness to Roswell" is a good place to start.

And, by the way, anyone can see through your self-serving attempts at sarcasm.

I'm glad you brought that up. I intend to get to that before long.



I apologize for the sarcasm. It's usually not my style.

I wish that it would have posted the whole interview with Maj Gen Dubose, because I believe this was the one where he scoffed at the idea that the material collected from the site had somehow been "switched."

So I guess they just show the juicy parts.

OK, sarcasm is my style. Sorry.

Is it the consensus of this board (by that I mean those who believe what crashed at Roswell was not anything the government said it was-- be it an alien ship, or something else-- anything other than Mogul or other prosaic explanation) that the photos taken in Gen. Ramey's office were either switched or faked entirely?

I may have a comment or question, but whether I do depends on what anyone/everyone thinks. And I appreciate in advance anyone who answers.

I don't think the evidence was ever "switched" in Ramey's office. As I recall from the "Witness" book, the material was still aboard the B-29 that just came in with Marcel. Gen. Clarence McMullen had told DuBose to come with an alternative story, and this they did when the weather officer ( Newton I believe was the name) was told to get one of his weather balloons, get it over to Ramey's office pronto and spread it out on the General's office floor. This was accomplished, then the press was invited in, and it was all over - mystery "solved".

ok, ive heard in interviews, the military personell are Still Sworn to Secrecy here. about roswell. about project mogul which was already declassified, and released to the public.
now someone explain to me why back then, And Now, they were/are sworn to secrecy over details in this incident, regarding a Weather Balloon basically, and what happened over there.

Duh. Gee! I never learned to read, just write. Sorry...

I wish I would've become a farmer, because I would have had ample fertilizer by now.

Witness to Roswell...Would that be this, by any chance?

Witness to Roswell: Unmasking the 60-Year Coverup by Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt (2007)

http://www.amazon.com/Witness-Roswell-Unma...3030&sr=1-1

So we have yet another book published in 2007, whether we need it or not. Let's have a look at the two authors, using Amazon's author search, to see what their credentials might be.

Thomas J. Carey:

It seems Mr. Carey also collaborated with Mr. Schmitt on another book in 2004:

The Roswell Dig Diaries(Sci Fi Channel Books) (Paperback)

http://www.amazon.com/Roswell-Dig-Diaries-...3423&sr=1-2

Sci Fi Channel books, huh? That doesn't exactly inspire confidence in favor of an unbiased, non-sensationalist report, does it?
Despite this, it looks like the Dig Diaries didn't fare as well as the later 2007 book did. Too bad.

Let's dig a little deeper now.
Hey, and here, by George, is one of several web pages pertaining to Mr. Carey:

http://sped2work.tripod.com/carey.html

Hmm...a lot of collaboration, direct and indirect, with Mr. Schmitt.
What's the matter? They didn't get it right the first time(s)?

And why am I seeing this pattern emerge about ex-Air Force trashing the government and the military? What's up with this?
I know the motto of the US Marines (bless them) is "Semper Fidelis" or "Semper Fi." (Always Faithful)
What is the motto of the Air Force? "Semper what?"


And now...

Donald R. Schmitt:

It appears that Mr. Schmitt has been beating the same literary drum for years.
(Question: "Why do we need another book about Roswell that has the same conclusions as other books about Roswell?" Answer: "Hey, you don't expect me to get a real job, do you?")*

*This is not from an actual interview, but what I would personally say.

Here's his list of his other books from Amazon, many of which are collaborations:

The Truth about the UFO Crash at Roswell by Kevin D. Randle and Donald R. Schmitt.

http://www.amazon.com/Truth-about-UFO-Cras...0885&sr=1-3

Here's the opening part of the review from that page:



"Even more convincing," huh? (If only the majority of the three reviewers at Amazon agreed...)
So apparently these two guys really didn't get it right the first time! They had to have a little more time to work on it. "Hey, forget about our first book, folks. This is the one you need to be reading! The other one was the truth, but this is more truth!" I'm guessing the later books could be desribed by this reviewer as "more convincing than you can stand", "We were just kidding about the others being convincing, but this one really, really is!", etc.

Conspiracy of Silence by Kevin D. Randle and Donald R. Schmitt

http://www.amazon.com/Conspiracy-Silence-R...6839&sr=1-4

There's no review on this one, but I'm guessing this is about the unfounded charges that were supposedly half-directed towards the Reagan/Bush Sr. White House around the year 1989. Very sordid things involving child sex slavery and general debauchery.
So a pattern emerges here. Wild, unfounded "conspiracy theories" are hot sellers, and especially when they are at the expense of the US government.
Can you say "self-serving", kiddies?
I knew you could!
(And some say I'm self-serving! )

UFO Crash at Roswell II: The Chronological Pictorial (Updated & Revised) by Donald R. (forward by Major General Kenner F. Hertford) Schmitt (Paperback - 2001)

http://www.amazon.com/UFO-Crash-Roswell-Ch...4422&sr=1-5

Major General Kenner F. Hertford, who is responsible for this quote:
"I am almost completely convinced that the object that crashed near Roswell was composed of materials not common on Earth."--
Major General Kenner F. Hertford, U.S.A.F. (Ret.)

And the general was basing this opinion on...???? His presence at Roswell? His presence when the evidence was brought in? His examination of said evidence?
Also, didn't he hear? He was supposed to be absolutely quiet about this! Goes all the way to the top! Very hush-hush!
Also most remarkable is that General Hertford could have provided a forward to a book published in 2001, when he passed away in 1995 at the age of 95. I'll give the benefit of the doubt that this book may have been published while the elderly general was still living. Because, you know, to do otherwise would be dishonest and deceitful. That sort of thing...

Here's a bio sketch on Mr. Schmitt, which is part of the site that is shared by his co-author, Mr. Carey:
http://www.roswellinvestigator.com/roswell...donschmitt.html


I would go on, but I'm a little weary of this whole silly Roswell thing.
Nobody is going to change anyone else's mind, especially when you're being an uncooperative jerk like I have been, and not swallowed wholesale anyone's conspiracy theories.



Draw your own conclusions about what I presented. I know I did.


Take care.

what is never mentioned in the Mogul explanation is the fact that no balloon parts were found at all nor any of the line holding the train of balloons and targets together.

Marcel , the Intelligence Officer of course would have known the difference between a train of balloons and targets and anything else. He may well have been aware of Mogul. After the Roswell incident he was promoted to Lt. Col. and placed in charge of investigating the Soviet nuclear weapons program. (Project Mogul). how convenient.

not to mention the excuse of 6 ft dummies being dropped . a program that didn't start until about 7 years later.

and until the day he died Marcel held firm that what he found was no weather balloon - even after working on Mogul.

Obviously you don't know our government well. Google MK-Ultra.

As for citizens ratting them out, who would they talk to? This was New Mexico, not New York City. For most of the ranchers, the nearest police station was miles away. That region didn't even get phone service until 1986. It would have been pretty foolish for the witnesses to have attempted anything of the sort. Why risk your life, or the lives of your family members, to tell a story noone would believe anyway? "But why are they talking now then?" That's because it has become a story now, so there isn't as much a threat of noone listening.



Much of the testimony in Witness to Roswell hadn't been covered previously. Try reading the book before waving it off and making proclamations on a topic about which you know absolutely nothing. Let psyche101 do the talking. At least he seems to know what he's talking about. Roswell has been an on going investigation. You're suggesting Carey and Schmitt are simply regurgitating the same old testimony with a whole new twist to make a quick buck. Get over yourself. As someone mentioned earlier, anyone can see through your transparent self serving sarcasm. If you are really that uninterested in doing any research to get at the truth, then why are you even bothering to waste your time in this discussion? I don't have a problem with people that aren't of the opinion that what crashed in Roswell wasn't an alien spacecraft, in fact I would willingly jump ship if they could provide the necessary evidence, but what bothers me is how they come to their conclusion, and the extreme arrogance and egotistic condescension that some of them display in perpetuating their ridiculous pet theories without any attempt to verify the facts.




I don't know about consensus, but I am currently of the opinion that what was seen and photographed in Ramey's office was not the material that was recovered. Aside from Marcel's testimony about it being "switched," Thomas Jefferson Dubose also verified that the material that was photographed in Ramey's office was not the debris that was recovered.

Dubose stated,

"There was a host of people descending on our headquarters seeking information from Ramey, badgering him for information we didn't have. I didn't know what it was. Blanchard [base commander at Roswell] didn't know. Ramey didn't know... McMullen said, Look, why don't you come up with something, anything you can use to get the press off our back? So we came up with this weather balloon story. Somebody got one and we ran it up a couple of hundred feet and dropped it to make it look like it crashed, and that's what we used."

(Interview with reporter Billy Cox , Florida Today, 11/24/91, requoted in Timothy Good, Beyond Top Secret, p. 465 )

That is correct, and last summer, an experiment was conducted using a down-sized Mogul balloon train, and when it was shot down, there were amazement all over the place. The debris field was much smaller than predicted, but what really caught the eyes, were the many yards of lines scattered all over the place, which was never mentioned in 1947.

To sum it up, the experiment proved beyond any doubt that no Mogul balloon train could have been responsible for the Roswell incident, and in fact, it would have been impossible.

Yes, and you're forgetting to mention one thing. The Mogul Balloons which have been SUPPOSEDLY been the case for the Roswell incident would have had ID tags indicating for the individual to contact at an address/number/etc. Not to mention that a search aircraft would have been issued out into the area to recover said "secret project", and the airforce had no knowledge about it until three days after the fact. It was not until Mack Brazel (the rancher who had the craft crash on his ranch) reported it to the Airforce base that the military reacted. I forgot to mention that FAMILIES were threatened, children scared senseless (what could they possibly KNOW about a secret weather balloon?) and homes forcibly searched.

It should also be noted that people of Roswell, New Mexico have spotted downed weather balloons before (and these Project Mogul balloons contained the same materials as any other weather balloons... balsa wood, rubber, duct tape, etc), so why would they make claims this time around that it had contained materials NOT OF THIS EARTH? Not to mention that the headlines in the Roswell paper indicated what the USAF had recovered was INDEED a saucer object, and not a weather balloon or project mogul or anything of that sort. It was only a day or two after the fact that headlines were released saying that they had mistaken a weather balloon for a saucer (how the hell could you misidentify a weather balloon, something that had been seen in the area many times before?).

Don't say crash dummies to account for the bodies, either, because they weren't invented until the 1950s.

Thanks!! I forgot about the ID tags, so it is amazing that with all of the english lettering and numbers all over Mogul balloon equipment, the UFO debunkers are simply trying to imply that Marcel couldn't read english nor decerpher our numbering system. After all, there are serial numbers on equipment as well.



The debunkers tend to overlook those facts for a very good reason; they don't want to admit that they are on the wrong side of the fence.

*Chuckles*

As antagonist as you are, you do make me smile, I cannot help but have a soft spot for you. This did make me chuckle.

Be careful, I have much patience at the moment. Care for me to dredge up some comments? Maybe just let sleeping dogs lie here hey?



???
Remeber the Mickey Mouse Maceys Day Parade reference? Mogul? Who said that?

K, you asked for it!

Post #76 By Skyeagle



Post #76 By Skyeagle


Post #81 By Skyeagle


and where I said



You refered to Mogul yet again!!!!



Hrrmz. Who is saying Mogul?
You! And there you have your own historical record to peruse



Noooooooo you don't say? Two different projects were not the same one? Go figure!!
Service balloons carried varying arrays of equipment, didn't they now.



Is the man blind or stupid?



fly 1 (fl)
v. flew (fl), flown (fln), fly·ing, flies (flz)
v.intr.
1. To engage in flight, especially:
a. To move through the air by means of wings or winglike parts.
b. To travel by air: We flew to Dallas.
c. To operate an aircraft or spacecraft.

Bolding mine. My 3 year old could read that. The man is refuting written evidence. Shows he is extremely biased and his opinion becasue of that is worth squat. This proves he cannot be objective and impartial. No, it was not officially classified as flight #4. It failed to take of as scheduled. The cluster with the sonobouy is the question. The man is obfuscating known fact to interject speculation based on irrelevant nomenclature. What a biased opinion! Amazing even the most staunch belivers give this guy credibility if he has to manipulate the information before it can be consumed by the individual for evaluation. He is making your mind up for you. Yeah Real Objective! Was that supposed to make me second guess the real story of a recovered balloon train? Sheesh, don't mind lining these fellows pockets do you. Hope you get some type of cut for all the promotion you do for their literature.

No, in particular Irving Newton. He did inspect the materials that Marcel confirmed he picked up.






Hrrmmzzz Carey and Schmitt showed an obvious bias in collecting the data. They really should be dismissed from that point on but in any case IMHO, and - the womans life would be taken if she said anything? she, comes forward and identifies a person, who if serving at the base whilst she was in the area comes as no suprise, and she still lives a healthy happy life?
Shouldnt she be dead?
Why would military threaten children? That I am afraid I cannot believe. Many of these guys were Dads themselves. No, I cannot entertain that. If I saw my best mate threatening a child, that would be the mental capacity he would be left with when I had finished with him. I am a Dad, that's what I would do. Who would believe the story of a child in any case, how easy would it be for the AF to discerdit a child's story with a little smoke and mirrors. No, that I am afraid seems more than far fetched. I cannot entertain that idea without solid hard proof. Not too close to something and someone objected. Nah. I am happy to call Jack Rodden an out and out liar. I am sorry, but I also dismiss Paul account based on Bessies testimony.

I was reading about the Witz testimony only two days ago. Dammned if I can find where now *shuffles madly*
I will have to leave that individual for another post. As such, I can offer no evidence to refute that individual at the moment. It does beg the question though, the military figured this material was so exotic, they must have every piece, yet the many civillians were at he site confirmed by multiple sources on both sides of the debate and not one civillian pockets a shred? Macs wife swept a pile of it out the back door? The military are not reported to have ransacked Brazels house. Should be a pile of unbreakable material (that broke!) on the back step of the Brazel ranch house right now! Macs wife said it was just rubbish. Some might say, how rude LOL.
Bessie saying it looked like a balloon sounds pretty darn honest. No Sky, not the later repeated coerced affadavit. Her initial identification.
Thanks for the post. Good discussion. Dang you, I have to go back through all that looking for Witz now, thanks.......... LOL

Well. You would be no fun at the local showgrounds would you.

Tsk tsk Aubrey. There was no Air Force in July 1947. A few of us have been through this with you now.

I really ought to know better, I know........




Hrrmzz, now why would one be tempted to write themselves into the history books................... I dunno, nature of man? Ego? Maybe like the sort of guy who would claim he had a Batchelors degree, when he didn't? claimed to shoot down enemy craft, which he didn;t........






What's that smell...............

All with english labels and numbers, ID tags, etc., and with those facts in hand, nothing to confuse anyone that they were flying saucers.




And, there were no Mogul balloon launches on June 4, 1947, as indicated in official records, but then again, no balloon of any kind was responsible for the Roswell incident anyway.

ROFL noob *chuckles*

I want a Unobtanium car!!!

I know. How on earth did Marcel get so out of whack? did he use drugs or something?



No indeedy. The Mickey Mouse Macys Day Parade Ballon train as described in the Crarey entry is the culprit

It cannot have been a flying saucer. The described craft was WAY too small according to ALL witness accounts to make that field!!

Must have been a flying red truck or something.........

No he didn't!

The material Newton was protographed with, and shown in LOOK magazine in 1967, had nothing to do with what was recovered on the Foster ranch. UFO debunkers were unaware that the Roswell photo was published years before Stanton Friedman contacted Marcel.

I'm only responding to the bold. you ever yell at your kids ? how much easier to scare a kid by telling them something bad will happen if they talk to anyone. maybe to mom and dad ? it doesn't take alot to threaten a child. people do it every day...... Our military is not above it either. It's naive to think they wouldn't to keep a secret.

He didn't! The UFO debunkers got things all confused. They were unaware that comments they attributed to Marcel, were actually those of Moore and Sandera.



Apparently, you have never been to aircraft crash sites.

I would find that scenario a great deal easier to consider if I had not personally dealt with several Governments.
The efficiency you speak of, and over 60 years, is just not there. I know contractors that got away with charging $35.00 for a self tapping 20mm tech screw. At the time - off the shelf buy value. About $0.03C. I know quite some people in many departments, I have relatives in the Air Force. This sort of efficiency does not exist.
How long do you really think the A Bomb would have stayed secret? It is hardly a fair comparison. It is leading the witness.
I disagree strongly about public reaction. Science for one would not stand for it.

The U2's official cover story by the Goverment (anotherr secret, didn;t stay secret all tat long, or very well) was that Alien saucers were buzzing us.
I see a similar pattern?.....................seems likely the same people were around for both events.

Quite differrent. It would be no trouble at all for the military to discredit a few kids. Overkill to a maximum. No, I do not believe it. Simpler and more palatable measures were readily available. Seems like a story created to invoke emotion to me.
Like I said, if I saw my best mate doing that, he would be left with the mental capacity of a child. You don't hurt kids. Period.



Not according to Marcel.

Goes to show how much you DON'T know. There was an Air Force in 1947, and in prior years.

To prove that some UFO debunkers are out of the loop of reality:

____________________________________________________________________

Air Force History Overview

The War Department reorganization on March 9, 1942, created three autonomous U.S. Army Commands: Army Ground Forces, Services of Supply (later, in 1943, Army Service Forces), and Army Air Forces. This administrative reorganization did not affect the status of the Air Corps as a combatant arm of the US Army.

All of these actions affecting the air forces and commands that comprised the AAF emphasized the surge towards an independent service and the expansion of combat forces that took place during World War II.

Before 1939 the Army's air arm was a fledgling organization; by the end of the war the Army Air Forces had become a major military organization comprised of many air forces, commands, divisions, wings, groups, and squadrons, plus an assortment of other organizations.

______________________________________________________________________

Now, what was that you were saying about "no Air Force in July 1947?"

No not at all.
You know what Marcel said. Why do you play these games? 600 posts untill I post the transcript that you very well know so you can switch subjects?
You play them because you are wrong. Changing focus will not help you in this instance. I am going to dog you on page 27 until you answer!!!!!!!!!!

Why did you lie about the dummies?



Only one. I am sure you are familiar with Pan Am Flight 103?
I was seeing a nurse in Lockerbie. All medical staff were called to the scene. Off duty, everyone. You can check that if you like. One guys head was squashed flat. Still completely intact, but squashed dead flat. Some things you just don't forget. All the bodies were laid out on the frozen ponds to keep them from decaying while the bodies were being gatherd.

In any case, how does unbreakable material break? Bit of a misnomer there. Seems to be a great deal of confusion about this case though, doesn't there.

It is evident that you haven't seen the LOOK magazine article, and look what you posted!! I mean, being so sloppy with the facts is no excuse!

I know that he UFO debunkers said this,and said that, and later found that Moore and Sandera, were the folks who were saying all of that.



Oh come now, I posted this:

QUOTE

Dummies Weren't Classified, Says Retired Colonel

The Associated Press


GRANTS — A retired Air Force officer says he worked with high tech

crash test dummies in the 1950s, and that there's no way they'd be

confused with aliens described in rumors arising from the Roswell

Incident.

Lt. Col. (Ret.) Raymond A. Madson said he isn't buying the latest Air

Force explanation of what occurred in Roswell in July 1947. The

Pentagon issued a report this week saying the Air Force believes

crash test dummies used in the 1950s were mistaken for the rumored

1947 aliens and suggesting that UFO buffs just got their dates

mixed up.

Madson, 66, who now lives near Grants, said he was project officer for

Project High Dive at Holloman Air Force Base for four years starting

in the 1950s.

He told the Grants newspaper, the Cibola County Beacon, that the

Project High Dive dummies were used to test problems pilots might

encounter with the ejection mechanisms for bailing out of new

generation jet aircraft.

Madson said he sent photographs of Project High Dive dummies to the

Pentagon for inclusion in the Air Force document issued this week,

'The Roswell Report: Case Closed.'

But he said the dummies do not match the descriptions of the very

small, almost childlike beings purported to have been seen in 1947 near Roswell.

Now, what was that you saying about me lying on the dummies?

Once again, it is evident that you are out of the loop of reality, and it is very amusing that you are proving that fact to everyone in this trhead.

I am sure that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about!