QUOTE
I am willing to meet both sides half way and say that a balloon did not crash but I would say an alien craft never crashed either.
I've opened the latter can of worms, AtheistGod, and you're welcome to join us. Plenty for everybody.
Full Version: Theory of Roswell
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Extraterrestrial Life & The UFO Phenomenon
I've opened the latter can of worms, AtheistGod, and you're welcome to join us. Plenty for everybody.
QUOTE
I want to show a photo of what a downed Mogul balloon train looks like.
This balloon train was recovered by two civilians, so could anyone confuse this downed balloon train as a flying saucer? If anything, it would look like a party was going on.
http://www.roswellproof.com/Trenton_Evenin...mes_7-14-47.jpg
This balloon train was recovered by two civilians, so could anyone confuse this downed balloon train as a flying saucer? If anything, it would look like a party was going on.
http://www.roswellproof.com/Trenton_Evenin...mes_7-14-47.jpg
Thank you, Skyeagle409.
Yessir, that looks similar to the 2nd balloon in the illustration on the page that I showed. If it's a photo appearing in a newspaper from 1947 as depicted, I don't see how the balloon itself could be considered Top Secret, if it was a Project Mogul balloon.
QUOTE (AstroPro @ Jul 2 2008, 06:07 PM) 
Floyd Proctor and Lyman Strickland walked by Brazel on his way out toward the waiting staff car. They were surprised Brazel did not acknowledge them. Proctor surmised that the military was keeping Brazel on a "short leash." Leonard "Pete" Porter, Bill Jenkins and L.D. Sparks all confirmed the presence of MP's escorting Brazel around downtown Roswell. By their accounts as well, they noticed that Brazel kept his eyes down and pretended he didn't notice them.
That's not necessarily evidence of anything amiss. Brazel was being escorted by MPs, correct? Who would expect him to stop and chat under those circumstances (metaphorically speaking)? Proctor "surmised", meaning he didn't know, but only guessed that.
And from Korff's book, pages 144-145 (interview with Charles Moore):
QUOTE
Q: (interrupting) It comes into depending on what Brazel was speaking about.
A: ...He (Brazel) talks about the smoky gray rubber...
Q: (interrupting) Which these samples here, as you say, if they'd only been out for a short time, a matter of days, smoky gray, that's a very good description of what they looked like.
A: And when you first retrieve it, it has a bad odor. And people talked about there being a burned odor [in General Ramey's office].
A: ...He (Brazel) talks about the smoky gray rubber...
Q: (interrupting) Which these samples here, as you say, if they'd only been out for a short time, a matter of days, smoky gray, that's a very good description of what they looked like.
A: And when you first retrieve it, it has a bad odor. And people talked about there being a burned odor [in General Ramey's office].
So that's where I came across the bit about the smoky gray rubber.
QUOTE (NigelTM @ Jul 2 2008, 07:54 PM)
That's not necessarily evidence of anything amiss. Brazel was being escorted by MPs, correct? Who would expect him to stop and chat under those circumstances (metaphorically speaking)? Proctor "surmised", meaning he didn't know, but only guessed that.
My point was to show that there was a military presence, and that Brazel seemed distressed.
QUOTE (Atheist God @ Jul 2 2008, 11:08 PM)
All anyone has to go on is
1: The odds
2: Hearsay and speculation and
3: circumstantial evidence.
Neither of the 3 would hold up in any court.
I am willing to meet both sides half way and say that a balloon did not crash but I would say an alien craft never crashed either.
There are several plausible explanations that do not involve aliens that can explain a lot of what people seen in 1947.
I say it was a test of jet propulsion systems gone wrong and both stories were made public to avoid scrutiny over the public safety regarding dangerous military testing near populated areas like Roswell.
1: The odds
2: Hearsay and speculation and
3: circumstantial evidence.
Neither of the 3 would hold up in any court.
I am willing to meet both sides half way and say that a balloon did not crash but I would say an alien craft never crashed either.
There are several plausible explanations that do not involve aliens that can explain a lot of what people seen in 1947.
I say it was a test of jet propulsion systems gone wrong and both stories were made public to avoid scrutiny over the public safety regarding dangerous military testing near populated areas like Roswell.
Yep...Thats what Iv been saying aswell. That press release (captured saucer) was just smoke for something they were testing/doing that went bad.
Amazing really...All the believers have is that press release and old stories that has morphed beyond recognition over the decades.
QUOTE (DEBUNKER @ Jul 2 2008, 10:07 PM)
Yep...Thats what Iv been saying aswell. That press release (captured saucer) was just smoke for something they were testing/doing that went bad.
Amazing really...All the believers have is that press release and old stories that has morphed beyond recognition over the decades.
Amazing really...All the believers have is that press release and old stories that has morphed beyond recognition over the decades.
If that were the case, then why would they then retract their statements indicating that it was no longer a flying saucer, but now a weather balloon? Then, in 1994... they released a statement indicating that they had in fact lied about the secret weather balloon cover up, and that it was now "Project Mogul". Both the weather balloon and project mogul explanation were bull droppings. Project Mogul really had contained the same materials any other weather balloon had contained in that era (balsa wood, neoprene rubber, tin-foil reflectors, etc)... and none of that had been found in the debris site.
What they had recovered was memory material, and various other materials that were virtually weightless. These materials could be molded into any shape or form, burned, etc... and it would return to its previous shape.
Another thing I wanted to mention was Walter Haut's affidavit, wherein he clearly states that what had been recovered had not been "of this earth", as he put it.
QUOTE ("Walter Haut affidavit")
1993 AFFIDAVIT OF WALTER HAUT
(1) My name is Walter Haut
(2) My address is: XXXXXXXXXX
(3) I am retired.
(4) In July 1947, I was stationed at the Roswell Army Air base serving as the base Public Information Officer. At approximately 9:30 AM on July 8, I received a call from Col. William Blanchard, the base commander, who said he had in his possession a flying saucer or parts thereof. He said it came from a ranch northwest of Roswell, and that the base Intelligence Officer, Major Jesse Marcel, was going to fly the material to Fort Worth.
(5) Col. Blanchard told me to write a news release about the operation and to deliver it to both newspapers and the two radio stations in Roswell. He felt that he wanted the local media to have the first opportunity at the story. I went first to KGFL, then to KSWS, then to the Daily Record and finally to the Morning Dispatch.
(6) The next day, I read in the newspaper that General Roger Ramey in Fort Worth had said the object was a weather balloon.
(7) I believe Col. Blanchard saw the material, because he sounded positive about what the material was. There is no chance that he would have mistaken it for a weather balloon. Neither is their any chance that Major Marcel would have been mistaken.
(8) In 1980, Jesse Marcel told me that the material photographed in Gen. Ramey's office was not the material he had recovered.
(9) I am convinced that the material recovered was some type of craft from outer space.
(10) I have not been paid nor given anything of value to make this statement, and it is the truth to the best of my recollection.
Signed: Walter G. Haut
5-14-93
Signature witnessed by:
M. Littell (?)
[Source: Karl Pflock, Roswell in Perspective, 1994]
(1) My name is Walter Haut
(2) My address is: XXXXXXXXXX
(3) I am retired.
(4) In July 1947, I was stationed at the Roswell Army Air base serving as the base Public Information Officer. At approximately 9:30 AM on July 8, I received a call from Col. William Blanchard, the base commander, who said he had in his possession a flying saucer or parts thereof. He said it came from a ranch northwest of Roswell, and that the base Intelligence Officer, Major Jesse Marcel, was going to fly the material to Fort Worth.
(5) Col. Blanchard told me to write a news release about the operation and to deliver it to both newspapers and the two radio stations in Roswell. He felt that he wanted the local media to have the first opportunity at the story. I went first to KGFL, then to KSWS, then to the Daily Record and finally to the Morning Dispatch.
(6) The next day, I read in the newspaper that General Roger Ramey in Fort Worth had said the object was a weather balloon.
(7) I believe Col. Blanchard saw the material, because he sounded positive about what the material was. There is no chance that he would have mistaken it for a weather balloon. Neither is their any chance that Major Marcel would have been mistaken.
(8) In 1980, Jesse Marcel told me that the material photographed in Gen. Ramey's office was not the material he had recovered.
(9) I am convinced that the material recovered was some type of craft from outer space.
(10) I have not been paid nor given anything of value to make this statement, and it is the truth to the best of my recollection.
Signed: Walter G. Haut
5-14-93
Signature witnessed by:
M. Littell (?)
[Source: Karl Pflock, Roswell in Perspective, 1994]
I had a scan of the affidavit, but I really don't know where it went to... having issues accessing it.
Not to mention that if this really was something that went "horribly" wrong, then how come no search aircraft had been dispersed to retrieve said project? It wasn't until a few days after the object had crashed that the military responded... and it was only after Mack Brazel (custodian of the Foster ranch in Roswell, N.M.) reported it to the RAAF. Not to mention that they had been scanning for "radiation" out in the debris field. My question to you is: why were they scanning for radiation out in the field? What would warrant that? Not to mention that.... if something did go horribly wrong, then how come nothing had been discovered to indicate to contact somebody in case of an emergency such as this? Seems a little odd to me.
QUOTE (DEBUNKER @ Jul 3 2008, 01:07 AM)
Yep...Thats what Iv been saying aswell. That press release (captured saucer) was just smoke for something they were testing/doing that went bad.
False!
The miltary was unaware of anything until notified by the local sheriff, which is a hint that what crashed, had nothing to do with the miltary. Since then, military and civilian personnel at Wright-Patterson AFB, have confirmed that the Roswell debris were extraterrestrial, including the commanding general at Wright-Patterson AFB, so is it any wonder as to why Senator Barry Goldwater went to Wright-patterson AFB to see what has been recovered?
You can read his letter here:
http://www.rense.com/general2/goldw.htm
QUOTE (Atheist God @ Jul 2 2008, 10:08 PM)
Prove it.
That is easy. The remains of the craft was left laying on the ranch for days and all of that time, the military was unaware of anything until they were notified by the local sheriff. Just a hint, you understand!
QUOTE
There are several plausible explanations that do not involve aliens that can explain a lot of what people seen in 1947.
What was reported in the sky on the night before the crash remains were discovered the next day the ranch? A flying saucer! The report made it to the press just before than of the military.
QUOTE
I say it was a test of jet propulsion systems gone wrong and both stories were made public to avoid scrutiny over the public safety regarding dangerous military testing near populated areas like Roswell.
That was no reason for the Air Force to report to the whole worldd that they had captured a flying saucer, no matter what went wrong. The name of the game is not to say anythjing at all if it involves classified military technnology.
QUOTE (NigelTM @ Jul 2 2008, 11:54 PM)
And from Korff's book, pages 144-145 (interview with Charles Moore):
Did you know that Charles Moore got upset at the Air Force because they didn't take him seriously after tracking a flying saucer over the White Sands, New Mexico area?
Check it out.
___________________________________________________________
The UFO Sighting of Charles Moore
INCIDENT 3. On April 24,1949 at 10:20 a.m., a group of five technicians under the general supervision of J. Gordon Vaeth, an aeronautical engineer employed by the Office of Naval Research, were preparing to launch a Skyhook balloon near Arrey, N. Mex. A small balloon was sent up first to check the weather. Charles B. Moore Jr., an aerologist of General Mills Inc. (pioneers in cosmic ray research) was tracking the weather balloon through a theodolite -- a 25-power telescopic instrument, which gives degrees of azimuth and elevation (horizontal and vertical position) for any object it is sighted on. At 10:30 a.m. Moore leaned back from the theodolite to glance at the balloon with his naked eye. Suddenly he saw a whitish elliptical object, apparently much higher than the balloon, and moving, in the opposite direction. At once he picked the object up in his theodolite at 45 degrees of elevation and 210 degrees of azimuth, and tracked it east at the phenomenal rate of 5 d of azimuth-change per second as it dropped swiftly to an elevation of 25 d. The Object appeared to be an ellipsoid roughly two and a half times as long as it was wide. Suddenly it swung abruptly upward and rushed out of sight in a few seconds. Moore had tracked it for about 60 seconds altogether. The other members of his crew confirmed his report. No sound was heard, no vapor trail was seen. The object, according to rough estimations by Moore and his colleagues, was about 56 miles above the earth, 100 feet long and was traveling at seven miles per second.
http://roswellproof.homestead.com/LIFE_1952.html
__________________________________________________________
QUOTE (skyeagle409 @ Jul 2 2008, 06:24 PM)
Look what I posted above from that same Air Force report that proved you wrong! This is becoming hilarious!!!
I'll say, I am getting quite a chuckle out of it I assure you!!
K, you asked for it once again. You are now implying you never said the Air Force tried to convince people that anthropomorphic dumies used in the early 50's for operation high dive were the "aliens" people claimeed to have seen with regards to The Roswell Incident? And that the Air Force made a complete blunder because the dummies were not in use untill at least 3 years after the Roswell Event?
Remember? Mulder, you heard Aubrey say this? Seems he is backing off that story now..........
Remeber these Posts Aubrey?
Posted on: Jun 30 2008, 03:40 PM
The Pentagon issued a report this week saying the Air Force believes crash test dummies used in the 1950s were mistaken for the rumored 1947 aliens and suggesting that UFO buffs just got their dates mixed up.
Posted on: Jun 23 2008, 12:08 AM
* Test dummies and accident victims of the 1950's, were responsible for an incident in 1947
(It is very obvious the UFO debunkers are out of touch with reality)
Posted on: Jun 10 2008, 10:48 PM
* The debunkers claimed that test dummies and accident victims of the 1950's, were responsible for the Roswell incident in 1947
Posted on: Jun 2 2008, 01:26 AM
For another example, the debunkers claimed that test dummies and accident victims of the 1950s were responsible for an incident in 1947. It didn't take any evidence to prove the debunkers wrong, just plain old common sense.
Posted on: Jun 2 2008, 01:04 AM
I told the debunkers why test dummies and accident victims of the 1950s were not responsible for the Roswell incident of 1947, and they didn't believe me.
Posted on: May 27 2008, 05:01 AM
and in 1997, it swung again toward test dummies and accident victims of the 1950s.
Posted on: May 27 2008, 01:35 AM
A new Air Force document being released on Tuesday reportedly says that so-called space aliens allegedly sighted in the New Mexico desert in the 1940s were actually Air Force dummies used in high-altitude parachute drops.
Now, confirmation that test dummies of the 1950s were not the alien bodies of 1947
Posted on: May 23 2008, 02:44 PM
* Did the Air Force claim that test dummies and accident victims of the 1950s were responsible for an incident in 1947?! Yes.
Posted on: May 17 2008, 12:07 AM
Actually, it goes even further than that in addition to the test dummies and accident victims of the 1950s as well, which only took common sense, but the guy who was part of the test dummy experiments made it public that his operations were not responsible for the Roswell incident.
Posted on: May 12 2008, 11:06 PM
* Why are skeptics still clinging to the idea that test dummies and accident victims of the 1950s were responsible for an incident in 1947?
(Think it is obvious who is clinging
)Posted on: Apr 30 2008, 10:43 PM
Do you really believe that test dummies and accident victims of the 1950s were responsible for an incident in 1947?
Posted on: Apr 30 2008, 03:00 PM
* Test dummies and accident victims of the 1950's to explain away an incident in 1947. (Lack of common sense in that case).
Posted on: Apr 24 2008, 11:22 PM
I was surprised to get arguments from the skeptics who stood by the Air Force when it said that that test dummies and accident victims of the 1950's were responsible for an incident in 1947. Simple common sense logic should have told them that there was something wrong with the Air Force's statement, but as it was, they lacked the ability to see the light and the rest became history when the facts were eventually revealed when the head of the project had said that there was no way that his test dummies could have been responsible for what the Air Force claimed in public, but certain skeptics had already swallowed the Air Force's obvious false public announcement wihtout knowing the rest of the story, but it didn't take a rocket scientist to determine the Air Force was pushing a false story, just plain common sense.
Bolding mine. Sorry, just couldn't help myself.
Posted on: Apr 24 2008, 01:54 AM
In addition, reading between the lines is how I was able to determine that no weather balloon, Project Mogul balloon, test dummies and accident victims of the 1950's were not responsible for an incident in 1947.
Posted on: Apr 23 2008, 12:59 AM
and test dummies and accident victims of the 1950's that never were, were responsible fo the Roswell incident of 1947.
Posted on: Feb 18 2008, 01:17 AM
Remember, the Air Force said in its 1997 Roswell Report, that alien bodies people saw at the hospital and in the field in 1947, were test dummies and accident victims of the 1950's.
Posted on: Feb 16 2008, 01:42 PM
In its 1997 Roswell Report, the Air Force said that alien bodies people saw in the field and at that hospital in 1947, were test dummies and accident victims of the 1950s.
Apparently, the Air Force must think the real dummies are those of the public willing to believe their dummy story.
Posted on: Feb 14 2008, 02:23 AM
Look what the Air Force has said in regards to alien bodies of 1947, and Project High Dive and accident victims of the 1950s! It is obvious that test dummies and accident victims of the 1950s had nothing to do with an inicident in 1947. CLUE #4
Posted on: Feb 13 2008, 11:49 AM
Thanks for helping me out, because that is the same book where it says, alien bodies of 1947, were test dummies and accident victims of the 1950's.
Posted on: Jan 31 2008, 06:10 PM
In 1997, the Air Force once again, summited a false report on alien bodies being misidentified as accident victims and test dummies of the 1950s, which the Air Force knew to be untrue.
Posted on: Jan 31 2008, 02:32 AM
Test dummy operations didn take place until 1953, and the Roswell incident happened in 1947. A huge gap in years, but the Air Force made of the story of test dummies anyway to try and explain away the Roswell incident.
Posted on: Jan 19 2008, 08:43 AM
The falsehood is that of test dummies and accident victims of the 1950's that were responsible for an incident in 1947.
Posted on: Dec 24 2007, 08:31 AM
Perhaps, you mean my statement regarding test dummies and accident victims of the 1950's that were responsible for an incident in 1947.
Posted on: Dec 23 2007, 09:47 AM
The test began in 1953, and a member of the team has stated that there was no way anyone could have confused the test dummies as alien beings. The witnesses reported small bodies while the test dummies were six feet tall.
Posted on: Dec 19 2007, 05:23 PM
test dummies and accident victims, and in such cases, common sense is all that would have been needed.
Do those 24 posts in the last 6 months jog your memory at all? That is what we were talking about, and my query with regards to page 27 of the 1997 report still stands. One paragraph shows us you have not even read the AF reports, yet dam them
Yes, very impartial. Not biased at all are you.
Now, with regards to the above and your constant implications, which by way of above you canot refute, that the air force has claimed UFO investigators to have "Bungled" these dates and that the Air Force SAYS the Anthropomorphic dumies WERE what people saw in 1947 (that is quite clearly what you are saying up there now isn;t it) how do you explain page 27 of the report.
Have you ever read the AF reports?
Have you evaluated the AF data?
Page 27 of the 1997 report.
Please explain.
As you can see, no, I am not wrong, you are. The rest of us admit to a mistake, it is human nature. Time for me to come clean. I know you are not going to believe this, but yes. Even I, I too have made a msitake before. I know, I hope that information does not dishearten you too much, but it is true. In fact, it is human nature. I know Mulder is going to be crushed. Sorry guys, I am human. Just like everyone over at area 51
.
QUOTE (skyeagle409 @ Jul 2 2008, 06:28 PM)
Exactly!!
See above good sir.
Your sir are indeed a card
QUOTE (psyche101 @ Jul 3 2008, 07:08 AM)
K, you asked for it once again. You are now implying you never said the Air Force tried to convince people that anthropomorphic dumies used in the early 50's for operation high dive were the "aliens" people claimeed to have seen with regards to The Roswell Incident? And that the Air Force made a complete blunder because the dummies were not in use untill at least 3 years after the Roswell Event?
Just admit that you got duped. Here it is again!
_________________________________________
QUOTE
Dummies Weren't Classified, Says Retired Colonel
The Associated Press
GRANTS — A retired Air Force officer says he worked with high tech
crash test dummies in the 1950s, and that there's no way they'd be
confused with aliens described in rumors arising from the Roswell
Incident.
Lt. Col. (Ret.) Raymond A. Madson said he isn't buying the latest Air
Force explanation of what occurred in Roswell in July 1947. The
Pentagon issued a report this week saying the Air Force believes
crash test dummies used in the 1950s were mistaken for the rumored
1947 aliens and suggesting that UFO buffs just got their dates
mixed up.
Madson, 66, who now lives near Grants, said he was project officer for
Project High Dive at Holloman Air Force Base for four years starting
in the 1950s.
He told the Grants newspaper, the Cibola County Beacon, that the
Project High Dive dummies were used to test problems pilots might
encounter with the ejection mechanisms for bailing out of new
generation jet aircraft.
Madson said he sent photographs of Project High Dive dummies to the
Pentagon for inclusion in the Air Force document issued this week,
'The Roswell Report: Case Closed.' But he said the dummies do not match the descriptions of the very
small, almost childlike beings purported to have been seen in 1947 near Roswell.
QUOTE (skyeagle409 @ Jul 2 2008, 06:45 PM)
Don't back-track on me now!! You've made a claim that was proven false! Some of my associates are former Air Force crewmembers of World War II.
________________________________________________________________________________
Overview of Air Force Combat Units of World War II
And by July 1946 the Air Force had only 2 groups that were ready for combat, although 52 were carried on the list of active organizations. A new Air Force had to be built on the ruins of demobilization, the goal being 70 groups, the strength that was authorized for peacetime. In addition, reserve and national guard forces would be available for active duty in an emergency. There was much opposition, however, to a large military establishment in peacetime, and to the financial burden such an establishment placed on the nation. Consequently, the Air Force had to cut to 48 groups.
http://libraryautomation.com/nymas/usaaf1.html
________________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
Overview of Air Force Combat Units of World War II
And by July 1946 the Air Force had only 2 groups that were ready for combat, although 52 were carried on the list of active organizations. A new Air Force had to be built on the ruins of demobilization, the goal being 70 groups, the strength that was authorized for peacetime. In addition, reserve and national guard forces would be available for active duty in an emergency. There was much opposition, however, to a large military establishment in peacetime, and to the financial burden such an establishment placed on the nation. Consequently, the Air Force had to cut to 48 groups.
http://libraryautomation.com/nymas/usaaf1.html
________________________________________________________________________________
Back track? What? You mean stay on topic? You mean if I do not change tactic every post and discuss a new subject I am backtracking?
Big deal.
My Dad fought in WWII.The above still does not show us anywhere that the Air Force was an Independantly operating unit under it's own Juristiction, or even existed as the AAF in July 1947, now does it?
So what are you getting at? Why this flood of information then?
QUOTE (skyeagle409 @ Jul 3 2008, 05:12 PM)
Just admit that you got duped. Here it is again!
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
Tsk tsk. Aubrey Aubrey.
Have you no shame?
What in earth does that have to do with yur claims and page 27?
Skirting again?
Who claimed they were classified? Who claimed they were a mix up with the Alien bodies?
YOU.
SEE
QUOTE
* Did the Air Force claim that test dummies and accident victims of the 1950s were responsible for an incident in 1947?! Yes.
You words/ Incorrect Words. Now what in earth does classification have to do with this again.
It takes the focus of the subject you say?
I am a little embarrased.
I have been duped in the past, by you.
QUOTE (psyche101 @ Jul 3 2008, 07:17 AM)
Back track? What? You mean stay on topic? You mean if I do not change tactic every post and discuss a new subject I am backtracking?
Big deal. My Dad fought in WWII.
Big deal.
My Dad fought in WWII.Then, he would have known that we had an Air Force during World War II, so once again, just admit that you are wrong. Some of my buddies served as Air Force pilots and crewmembers during World War II, and they disagree with what you are saying.
QUOTE (psyche101 @ Jul 3 2008, 07:20 AM)
Tsk tsk. Aubrey Aubrey. Have you no shame? What in earth does that have to do with yur claims and page 27?
Please post for all to see, what is on page 27!
QUOTE (psyche101 @ Jul 3 2008, 07:20 AM)
I am a little embarrased. I have been duped in the past, by you.
I have been duped in the past, by you.You allowed yourself to be duped without any help from anyone else. You should have known that no balloon of any kind was responsible for the Roswell incident, and confirmed by Congressman Steven Schiff.
QUOTE (AstroPro @ Jul 2 2008, 06:48 PM)
That was the material photographed in Ramey's office for the press, which Marcel and Dubose confirmed was not the material found on the Foster ranch.
No they didn't.
Marcel quoted.
QUOTE
"they took a photo of me on the floor holding up some of the less- interesting metallic debris...pieces of the actual stuff we had found."
Likewise, General Dubose was very clear when interviewed by UFO researcher Jaime Shandera. When asked to describe details of the photo session in General Ramey's office Dubose made the following statements:
Shandera: J. Bond Johnson, reporter for the Fort Worth-StarTelegram, has stated that when he asked General Ramey what this debris was, Ramey said that he didn't know. You were present in that room at that time. Also, the Associated Press had carried a story indicating that General Ramey didn't know what the debris was when talking to (Air Corps Chief of Staff) General (Hoyt) Vandenberg in Washington."
Dubose: "Well, that's true. None of us knew what it was."
Shandera: "There are two researchers (Don Schmitt and Kevin Randle) who are presently saying that the debris in General Ramey's office had been switched and that you men had a weather balloon there."
Dubose: "Oh Bull! That material was never switched."
Shandera: "So what you're saying is that the material in General Ramey's office was the actual debris brought in from Roswell?"
Dubose: "That's absolutely right."
Shandera: "So not you or anyone else ever switched that material for the cover story."
Dubose: "We never switched anything. We were under orders from Washington to look at that material. We wouldn't have switched anything. We were West Pointers -- we would never have done that."
Shandera: "But General Ramey did put out a cover story that it was a weather device."
Dubose: "Yes. We were ordered to get the press off our backs -- things were getting out of hand."
No doubt you have read the above before. Please do not tell me to read between the lines................... I mean....come on
QUOTE (AstroPro @ Jul 2 2008, 06:48 PM)
Killing of witnesses that testified would validate the information provided. Of course, that would be counter productive. Witnesses should have realized the militaries bluff from the start, but with the lives of their family members potentially on the line, in a time when calling 911 wasn't a possibility, it doesn't matter how improbable it may seem that the military will follow through with the threat, it's a risk not worth taking. And again, why tell a story noone would believe anyway?
uhh, I can think of at least one other name that suicided with a piece of hose that people keep saying the Gov "took out" They kill selected threatened individuals? One would be obvious, but another not?
I don't tink so. As inefficent as they are, it is hard to believe any organisation is that erratic and nonsensical. If they were, they could not have kept such a big secret for 60 years.
How easy would t be for the military to discredit a few small children?
Ridiculously so. So easy in fact, that I do not believe they would threaten children as an alternative. That point is obviously injected to invoke emotion. Rubbish. There is no way I would consider America's finest to stoop so low for no good reason. I require sold proof of such an outragoues claim. I honestly feel the AF has the right, and should have considered charging this man.
QUOTE (AstroPro @ Jul 2 2008, 06:48 PM)
I think we have a way of infiltrating Area-51 then. Just send a school bus full of young kids running in all directions across the desert towards the base. What could they possibly do?
(I do not endorse the alien-area-51 connection)
On a more serious note, the government has done some sick things in the past (MK-Ultra). Threatening a few kids is cake. They're easier to shut up than adults, they are more suggestible. I don't think it was something the military officers enjoyed doing, by any means, but orders are orders. I'm not aware of any actual physical abuse.
(I do not endorse the alien-area-51 connection)
On a more serious note, the government has done some sick things in the past (MK-Ultra). Threatening a few kids is cake. They're easier to shut up than adults, they are more suggestible. I don't think it was something the military officers enjoyed doing, by any means, but orders are orders. I'm not aware of any actual physical abuse.
Take a film crew, I have enough faith in the good people who risk their very lives to do their best for us to handle any situation in a suitable manner. Would they kill kids or beat them? No way on ths earth. Many are Dad's. Are you one? It is an order I would not carry outunder any circumstance. Not to mention, the ease to discredit a few kids.
QUOTE
Headed by Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, the MK-ULTRA project was started on the order of CIA director Allen Dulles on April 13, 1953,[9] largely in response to Soviet, Chinese, and North Korean use of mind-control techniques on U.S. prisoners of war in Korea.[10] The CIA wanted to use similar methods on their own captives. The CIA was also interested in being able to manipulate foreign leaders with such techniques,[11] and would later invent several schemes to drug Fidel Castro.
Wikipedia.
Drug exerimentation. Not a patch on nazi war cries are they. And the main fact of a far easier alternative remains. Why stoop to threats when it is not necessary and distasteful? I do not give this story credibility at all. Nor do I give Frak Joyce's account credibility by way of poor corroboration. There is no good reason to believe one mans outragous and slanderous account that has no verification.
QUOTE (skyeagle409 @ Jul 3 2008, 05:21 PM)
Then, he would have known that we had an Air Force during World War II, so once again, just admit that you are wrong. Some of my buddies served as Air Force pilots and crewmembers during World War II, and they disagree with what you are saying.
I am sure they did serve. Lets hope they retained facts.
QUOTE
the USAF was formed as a separate branch of the military on September 18, 1947.[3] It was the last branch of the U.S. military to be formed.
Black and white. What do they have to say about factual recorded history?
QUOTE (skyeagle409 @ Jul 3 2008, 05:23 PM)
Please post for all to see, what is on page 27!
What do you hope to accomplish with making me go in circles and keep posting the same material Aubrey? I have posted this for you so many times it is not funny, do I need to do a post count again?
Here you go, one more time, everybody now, altogether to the tune of 6 months in a leaky boat (considering the posts cout above - appropriate? No?)
QUOTE
c. Actual events, if any, that inspired reports of bodies did not occur in 1947.
Kinda contradicts that post of 24 quotes over the last 6 mnths doesn't it?
Like this one?
QUOTE
Posted on: May 23 2008, 02:44 PM
* Did the Air Force claim that test dummies and accident victims of the 1950s were responsible for an incident in 1947?! Yes.
* Did the Air Force claim that test dummies and accident victims of the 1950s were responsible for an incident in 1947?! Yes.
or maybe this little gem?
QUOTE
Posted on: Feb 18 2008, 01:17 AM
Remember, the Air Force said in its 1997 Roswell Report, that alien bodies people saw at the hospital and in the field in 1947, were test dummies and accident victims of the 1950's.
Remember, the Air Force said in its 1997 Roswell Report, that alien bodies people saw at the hospital and in the field in 1947, were test dummies and accident victims of the 1950's.
Which one of these is not like the other one - Playschool song?
There you go all to see. Somehow, I don't think you can see it still.............................
QUOTE (psyche101 @ Jul 3 2008, 03:54 AM)
There is no way I would consider America's finest to stoop so low for no good reason.
Have you forgotten Vietnam? Lasting Pain, Minimal Punishment
QUOTE (skyeagle409 @ Jul 3 2008, 05:25 PM)
You allowed yourself to be duped without any help from anyone else. You should have known that no balloon of any kind was responsible for the Roswell incident, and confirmed by Congressman Steven Schiff.
I sure did! I took all your stuff to be true untill I did a little research!! Yup. My fault *hand in the air*
Schiff????
That wuss????????
The silly little man that got all upset at his own red tape and cried foul? He still looked stupid even when he tried to cover his blunder and make out there was a story there. He ought to be ashamed as a leader!! He would have been far better of as a papparazzi photographer. He seems to have the right profile for that.
Sciff's little whinge is a joke.
QUOTE (psyche101 @ Jul 3 2008, 03:54 AM)
Likewise, General Dubose was very clear when interviewed by UFO researcher Jaime Shandera. When asked to describe details of the photo session in General Ramey's office Dubose made the following statements:
That was not what was written in his 1991 affidavit, nor is that what he told reporter Billy Cox of the Florida Today, on November 24, 1991, nor is it consistent with what his recorded statements to Randle and Schmitt indicated in 1991, which can be heard here.
QUOTE (AstroPro @ Jul 3 2008, 06:07 PM)
Have you forgotten Vietnam? Lasting Pain, Minimal Punishment
Who could or can forget?
Wow, that's kinda stooping pretty low there. Talk about below the belt. I wonder what our military thinks of your comment, all the fine people who are UM members that risk their lives for such an attitude. Amazing
You honestly are trying to say that a ranchers farmhouse, and discrediting a few kids is a comparable situation to the horrors faced in Vietnam? Are you trying to liken the two situations? How many kids from Roswell are packed with bombs or carry sniper rifles? Are the men at Roswell constantly under fire, being tested with experimental drugs, fighting 23 hours a day and not expecting to see their loved ones again?
UFO believers oftem omit, but this is a bit too much. This is paramount to slander.
Man, I think you owe the miltary members of UM an apology. That is bad man. Below the belt.
And, you take the word of the OS media over your contries finest? Lets hope you never need their services hey? No way it could have been an American hater writing that could it? Did you check the sources?
That's like saying Manson was an American. Are you a sick twisted manipulative serial killer?
Low man. Low.
QUOTE (AstroPro @ Jul 3 2008, 06:18 PM)
That was not what was written in his 1991 affidavit, nor is that what he told reporter Billy Cox of the Florida Today, on November 24, 1991, nor is it consistent with what his recorded statements to Randle and Schmitt indicated in 1991, which can be heard here.
In the interests of clarity. Could you please post each instance so they can be addressed individually.
QUOTE (someoldguy @ Jul 3 2008, 08:23 AM)
I've opened the latter can of worms, AtheistGod, and you're welcome to join us. Plenty for everybody.
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
worms
QUOTE (Alienated Being @ Jul 3 2008, 02:56 AM)
I guess it's a possibility, but a secret balloon project such as Mogul would have warranted extra precautionary measures to ensure that it would not have been witnessed by the public eyes...
Perhaps you could have a good look at the compartmentalisation the project ran by.
The ballons were never secret. Some were 600 foot long. That would be hard to keep a secret. Like a PC. Many look identical. What is stored on the Hard drive is not though. Wo cares about another ballon train?
The best place to hide a tree is in a forrest.
QUOTE (psyche101 @ Jul 3 2008, 09:19 AM)
Who could or can forget?
Wow, that's kinda stooping pretty low there. Talk about below the belt. I wonder what our military thinks of your comment, all the fine people who are UM members that risk their lives for such an attitude. Amazing
You honestly are trying to say that a ranchers farmhouse, and discrediting a few kids is a comparable situation to the horrors faced in Vietnam? Are you trying to liken the two situations? How many kids from Roswell are packed with bombs or carry sniper rifles? Are the men at Roswell constantly under fire, being tested with experimental drugs, fighting 23 hours a day and not expecting to see their loved ones again?
UFO believers oftem omit, but this is a bit too much. This is paramount to slander.
Man, I think you owe the miltary members of UM an apology. That is bad man. Below the belt.
And, you take the word of the OS media over your contries finest? Lets hope you never need their services hey? No way it could have been an American hater writing that could it? Did you check the sources?
That's like saying Manson was an American. Are you a sick twisted manipulative serial killer?
Low man. Low.
Wow, that's kinda stooping pretty low there. Talk about below the belt. I wonder what our military thinks of your comment, all the fine people who are UM members that risk their lives for such an attitude. Amazing
You honestly are trying to say that a ranchers farmhouse, and discrediting a few kids is a comparable situation to the horrors faced in Vietnam? Are you trying to liken the two situations? How many kids from Roswell are packed with bombs or carry sniper rifles? Are the men at Roswell constantly under fire, being tested with experimental drugs, fighting 23 hours a day and not expecting to see their loved ones again?
UFO believers oftem omit, but this is a bit too much. This is paramount to slander.
Man, I think you owe the miltary members of UM an apology. That is bad man. Below the belt.
And, you take the word of the OS media over your contries finest? Lets hope you never need their services hey? No way it could have been an American hater writing that could it? Did you check the sources?
That's like saying Manson was an American. Are you a sick twisted manipulative serial killer?
Low man. Low.
I do agree there. You see it all the time; "The Military" is just a convenient shorthand for sinister forces of oppression who would stop at nothing to pursue the government's sinister aims. It's just so convenient to say "The Military" are hushing something up, are suppressing witnesses, are about to impose martial law and imprison the population; all, every single one of them, involved in whatever vast conspiracy one wishes to promote. Using examples from wartime situations to illustarte how ruthless and contemptuous of human life they all are is another standard tactic.
QUOTE (psyche101 @ Jul 3 2008, 04:19 AM)
Who could or can forget?
Wow, that's kinda stooping pretty low there. Talk about below the belt. I wonder what our military thinks of your comment, all the fine people who are UM members that risk their lives for such an attitude. Amazing
You honestly are trying to say that a ranchers farmhouse, and discrediting a few kids is a comparable situation to the horrors faced in Vietnam? Are you trying to liken the two situations? How many kids from Roswell are packed with bombs or carry sniper rifles? Are the men at Roswell constantly under fire, being tested with experimental drugs, fighting 23 hours a day and not expecting to see their loved ones again?
UFO believers oftem omit, but this is a bit too much. This is paramount to slander.
Man, I think you owe the miltary members of UM an apology. That is bad man. Below the belt.
And, you take the word of the OS media over your contries finest? Lets hope you never need their services hey? No way it could have been an American hater writing that could it? Did you check the sources?
That's like saying Manson was an American. Are you a sick twisted manipulative serial killer?
Low man. Low.
Wow, that's kinda stooping pretty low there. Talk about below the belt. I wonder what our military thinks of your comment, all the fine people who are UM members that risk their lives for such an attitude. Amazing
You honestly are trying to say that a ranchers farmhouse, and discrediting a few kids is a comparable situation to the horrors faced in Vietnam? Are you trying to liken the two situations? How many kids from Roswell are packed with bombs or carry sniper rifles? Are the men at Roswell constantly under fire, being tested with experimental drugs, fighting 23 hours a day and not expecting to see their loved ones again?
UFO believers oftem omit, but this is a bit too much. This is paramount to slander.
Man, I think you owe the miltary members of UM an apology. That is bad man. Below the belt.
And, you take the word of the OS media over your contries finest? Lets hope you never need their services hey? No way it could have been an American hater writing that could it? Did you check the sources?
That's like saying Manson was an American. Are you a sick twisted manipulative serial killer?
Low man. Low.
My grandfather joined the Army right when he turned 18. I have friends in Iraq and friends in the Air Force. My uncle fought in WWII. My statement had nothing to do with the integrity of the armed forces as a whole. There are nutcases in the service just as there are nutcases everywhere else, so don't give me that. You should know that as well as I do. It's universal, it's not a U.S. thing. Remember the U.S. treatment of prisoners in Iraq? These things shouldn't be swept under the rug. Such instances of injustice don't speak for everybody either, by any means. Many in the force were as outraged as anyone back home, but would it be considered unpatriotic to point out such injustices committed by armed service members to seek retribution?
If I offended anyone, I sincerelly apologize -- that was not my intention. As stated, many of my friends are in the military, and several of my family members have served honorably as well. I would never attempt to take anything away from any of them.
QUOTE
Who could or can forget?
Wow, that's kinda stooping pretty low there. Talk about below the belt. I wonder what our military thinks of your comment, all the fine people who are UM members that risk their lives for such an attitude. Amazing
You honestly are trying to say that a ranchers farmhouse, and discrediting a few kids is a comparable situation to the horrors faced in Vietnam? Are you trying to liken the two situations? How many kids from Roswell are packed with bombs or carry sniper rifles? Are the men at Roswell constantly under fire, being tested with experimental drugs, fighting 23 hours a day and not expecting to see their loved ones again?
UFO believers oftem omit, but this is a bit too much. This is paramount to slander.
Man, I think you owe the miltary members of UM an apology. That is bad man. Below the belt.
And, you take the word of the OS media over your contries finest? Lets hope you never need their services hey? No way it could have been an American hater writing that could it? Did you check the sources?
That's like saying Manson was an American. Are you a sick twisted manipulative serial killer?
Low man. Low.
Wow, that's kinda stooping pretty low there. Talk about below the belt. I wonder what our military thinks of your comment, all the fine people who are UM members that risk their lives for such an attitude. Amazing
You honestly are trying to say that a ranchers farmhouse, and discrediting a few kids is a comparable situation to the horrors faced in Vietnam? Are you trying to liken the two situations? How many kids from Roswell are packed with bombs or carry sniper rifles? Are the men at Roswell constantly under fire, being tested with experimental drugs, fighting 23 hours a day and not expecting to see their loved ones again?
UFO believers oftem omit, but this is a bit too much. This is paramount to slander.
Man, I think you owe the miltary members of UM an apology. That is bad man. Below the belt.
And, you take the word of the OS media over your contries finest? Lets hope you never need their services hey? No way it could have been an American hater writing that could it? Did you check the sources?
That's like saying Manson was an American. Are you a sick twisted manipulative serial killer?
Low man. Low.
Beautifully written, psyche101.
[Editorial]
A lot of slander has been done at the military's expense. I can't describe the extent to which all this talk hurts my feelings, even though the military has never been the worse for it. But it's a free country, and I suppose people can say and print what they want, no matter how indecent.
[end of editorial]
Now, for me, it's back to the facts, Jack!
QUOTE
I do agree there. You see it all the time; "The Military" is just a convenient shorthand for sinister forces of oppression who would stop at nothing to pursue the government's sinister aims. It's just so convenient to say "The Military" are hushing something up, are suppressing witnesses, are about to impose martial law and imprison the population; all, every single one of them, involved in whatever vast conspiracy one wishes to promote. Using examples from wartime situations to illustarte how ruthless and contemptuous of human life they all are is another standard tactic.
And another round of applause from me to you, sir.
747400 nailed it quite nicely. "The military" seems to be interchangable with "they/them" in truthseeker jargon. Another name for the powers that be.
Astropro, if religious phenomena and ETBE's are apples and oranges, why is comparing post WW2 military to Vietnam OK? Seems that the massive shift in political thinking re:war came about in Korea (aka- the forgotten war), anyway. That's when we start to see jargon such as "police action" openly applied when describing military operations to the public.
And some more interesting facts. 6 pages of discussion starting with some documents that strongly indicated, to me, what was made public might have had the potential to negatively impact on intelligence operations in Europe (esp. Paperclip); which were presented and handwaived in an earlier topic on these boards. Link
Seems the same old argument is still - "LOL I proved the sceptics wrong on the mogul balloon train (even though I've failed to conclusively prove anything else).
Psyche, you know that as long as you use even one vowel sound in your replies, all Aubrey will hear is Mogul Balloons. It's hard but you'll have to learn some kind of tongue click dialect to get him to progress past that
Astropro, if religious phenomena and ETBE's are apples and oranges, why is comparing post WW2 military to Vietnam OK? Seems that the massive shift in political thinking re:war came about in Korea (aka- the forgotten war), anyway. That's when we start to see jargon such as "police action" openly applied when describing military operations to the public.
And some more interesting facts. 6 pages of discussion starting with some documents that strongly indicated, to me, what was made public might have had the potential to negatively impact on intelligence operations in Europe (esp. Paperclip); which were presented and handwaived in an earlier topic on these boards. Link
Seems the same old argument is still - "LOL I proved the sceptics wrong on the mogul balloon train (even though I've failed to conclusively prove anything else).
Psyche, you know that as long as you use even one vowel sound in your replies, all Aubrey will hear is Mogul Balloons. It's hard but you'll have to learn some kind of tongue click dialect to get him to progress past that
QUOTE
Dummies Weren't Classified, Says Retired Colonel
The Associated Press
GRANTS — A retired Air Force officer says he worked with high tech
crash test dummies in the 1950s, and that there's no way they'd be
confused with aliens described in rumors arising from the Roswell
Incident.
Lt. Col. (Ret.) Raymond A. Madson said he isn't buying the latest Air
Force explanation of what occurred in Roswell in July 1947. The
Pentagon issued a report this week saying the Air Force believes
crash test dummies used in the 1950s were mistaken for the rumored
1947 aliens and suggesting that UFO buffs just got their dates
mixed up.
Madson, 66, who now lives near Grants, said he was project officer for
Project High Dive at Holloman Air Force Base for four years starting
in the 1950s.
He told the Grants newspaper, the Cibola County Beacon, that the
Project High Dive dummies were used to test problems pilots might
encounter with the ejection mechanisms for bailing out of new
generation jet aircraft.
Madson said he sent photographs of Project High Dive dummies to the
Pentagon for inclusion in the Air Force document issued this week,
'The Roswell Report: Case Closed.' But he said the dummies do not match the descriptions of the very
small, almost childlike beings purported to have been seen in 1947 near Roswell.
The Associated Press
GRANTS — A retired Air Force officer says he worked with high tech
crash test dummies in the 1950s, and that there's no way they'd be
confused with aliens described in rumors arising from the Roswell
Incident.
Lt. Col. (Ret.) Raymond A. Madson said he isn't buying the latest Air
Force explanation of what occurred in Roswell in July 1947. The
Pentagon issued a report this week saying the Air Force believes
crash test dummies used in the 1950s were mistaken for the rumored
1947 aliens and suggesting that UFO buffs just got their dates
mixed up.
Madson, 66, who now lives near Grants, said he was project officer for
Project High Dive at Holloman Air Force Base for four years starting
in the 1950s.
He told the Grants newspaper, the Cibola County Beacon, that the
Project High Dive dummies were used to test problems pilots might
encounter with the ejection mechanisms for bailing out of new
generation jet aircraft.
Madson said he sent photographs of Project High Dive dummies to the
Pentagon for inclusion in the Air Force document issued this week,
'The Roswell Report: Case Closed.' But he said the dummies do not match the descriptions of the very
small, almost childlike beings purported to have been seen in 1947 near Roswell.
Did Mr. Brazel, the main eye witness to the debris found at Roswell, report any sighting of such "small, almost childlike beings"? If so, where can we find any confirmation of that statement?
QUOTE
confirmed by Congressman Steven Schiff
The late Congressman Steven Schiff:
http://www.paradigmresearchgroup.org/Award...hiff_Steven.htm
It doesn't seem reasonable that Congressman Schiff, who was born in 1946, would have been able to physically confirm anything about the 1947 Roswell incident.
QUOTE (someoldguy @ Jul 3 2008, 07:59 PM)
Did Mr. Brazel, the main eye witness to the debris found at Roswell, report any sighting of such "small, almost childlike beings"? If so, where can we find any confirmation of that statement?
When one reads "The Roswell Incident" (berlitz and Moore) we see that the alleged ETBE bodies and one survivor are at the alleged Sorroco/San Augustin site. However the most detailed descriptions come from the Weisberg and Von Poppin accounts of 4-6 dead ET's still sitting in their spacecraft in a hanger at an undisclosed AFB (though Edwards and Los Alamos are mentioned). Both accounts are from the 'late 1940s'. Odd thing with reading the SA (Barnett, Maltais) witness accounts, for something so extraordinary, they are very mundane and are seriously lacking in detail. The best we get is small by human standards, big heads, small eyes, metallic saucer shaped craft.
from page 82- Bill Brazel
Strangely enough, when Dad first got into Roswell, it was the weather bureau he called first about the stuff he had found. [They] told him he had better see the sheriff about it.
Did [he] ever mention [...] any creatures connected with this wreckage?
No [he didn't], but it's curious you should ask. There was a fellow [Lamme] who worked with me on a job in Alaska [...] who seemed to know something about that. We were talking [...] one evening and the topic of tha flying saucer that was supposed to have touched down on Alskan Tundra came up. I mentioned to him about what dad had been involved in [ed. so much for threats], and to my surprise he asked me if I wanted to know more about that. Then he said that they had found the rest of the thing after it had come down in a desert area, and that there were some creatures found with it.
QUOTE
Strangely enough, when Dad first got into Roswell, it was the weather bureau he called first about the stuff he had found. [They] told him he had better see the sheriff about it.
Did [he] ever mention [...] any creatures connected with this wreckage?
No [he didn't], but it's curious you should ask. There was a fellow [Lamme] who worked with me on a job in Alaska [...] who seemed to know something about that. We were talking [...] one evening and the topic of tha flying saucer that was supposed to have touched down on Alskan Tundra came up. I mentioned to him about what dad had been involved in [ed. so much for threats], and to my surprise he asked me if I wanted to know more about that. Then he said that they had found the rest of the thing after it had come down in a desert area, and that there were some creatures found with it.
Did [he] ever mention [...] any creatures connected with this wreckage?
No [he didn't], but it's curious you should ask. There was a fellow [Lamme] who worked with me on a job in Alaska [...] who seemed to know something about that. We were talking [...] one evening and the topic of tha flying saucer that was supposed to have touched down on Alskan Tundra came up. I mentioned to him about what dad had been involved in [ed. so much for threats], and to my surprise he asked me if I wanted to know more about that. Then he said that they had found the rest of the thing after it had come down in a desert area, and that there were some creatures found with it.
Interesting, thanks.
Also most interesting to me was Bill Brazel's statement that his father had first called the weather bureau, before going to the sheriff. This does not appear to be a reasonable affirmation of his locating any "creatures," which a sensible person would not likely associate with the weather bureau.
I wonder what the year was at the time of Bill Brazel's conversation with his co-worker in Alaska?
QUOTE (someoldguy @ Jul 3 2008, 09:23 PM)
Interesting, thanks.
Also most interesting to me was Bill Brazel's statement that his father had first called the weather bureau, before going to the sheriff. This does not appear to be a reasonable affirmation of his locating any "creatures," which a sensible person would not likely associate with the weather bureau.
I wonder what the year was at the time of Bill Brazel's conversation with his co-worker in Alaska?
Also most interesting to me was Bill Brazel's statement that his father had first called the weather bureau, before going to the sheriff. This does not appear to be a reasonable affirmation of his locating any "creatures," which a sensible person would not likely associate with the weather bureau.
I wonder what the year was at the time of Bill Brazel's conversation with his co-worker in Alaska?
You're welcome.
There's no time given for when Bill and Lamme had their conversation. In fact page 82 is the only time Lamme is mentioned. Which is interesting since Lamme, according to Brazel, claimed to have entered the alleged craft and found 2 live aliens suffering from inhalation burns (who were transported by the military to a base in California and kept alive there for sometime on ventilators). Yet the Barnett and Maltias accounts make no mention of him, period.
The other interesting thing that comes up in Bill's story is, despite the adherrents of the military cover up claiming that nothing would ever be found at Roswell since the military grabbed the lot, that he claims to have been finding little bits of debris in that area after every heavy rain for years afterwards. As he tells it, he lost the collection after one time where he went 'into Corona one evening and said more than he should' [again- so much for threats] and a Capt. Armstrong turns up on the ranch the next day and after being shown the debris (he was particularly interested in the string stuff) tells Bill that it's vital to national security to let him take it all back with him. Bill, not knowing what else to do agrees (no mention of threats or other methods of forced compliance are made, so it seems that Bill gave it up of his own accord).
QUOTE
The ballons were never secret. Some were 600 foot long. That would be hard to keep a secret. Like a PC. Many look identical. What is stored on the Hard drive is not though. Wo cares about another ballon train?
Good explanation. Thanks. That explains a lot.
QUOTE (Evangium @ Jul 3 2008, 12:50 PM)
You're welcome.
There's no time given for when Bill and Lamme had their conversation. In fact page 82 is the only time Lamme is mentioned. Which is interesting since Lamme, according to Brazel, claimed to have entered the alleged craft and found 2 live aliens suffering from inhalation burns (who were transported by the military to a base in California and kept alive there for sometime on ventilators). Yet the Barnett and Maltias accounts make no mention of him, period.
There's no time given for when Bill and Lamme had their conversation. In fact page 82 is the only time Lamme is mentioned. Which is interesting since Lamme, according to Brazel, claimed to have entered the alleged craft and found 2 live aliens suffering from inhalation burns (who were transported by the military to a base in California and kept alive there for sometime on ventilators). Yet the Barnett and Maltias accounts make no mention of him, period.
That suggests, if the story was taken at face value, that the military were reasonably familiar with ET physiology, doesn't it? Helpful, also, that they presumably breathed oxygen. What conclusions you could conclude from that, of course, are entirely up to you.
:-/
QUOTE (Evangium @ Jul 3 2008, 06:50 AM)
You're welcome.
There's no time given for when Bill and Lamme had their conversation. In fact page 82 is the only time Lamme is mentioned. Which is interesting since Lamme, according to Brazel, claimed to have entered the alleged craft and found 2 live aliens suffering from inhalation burns (who were transported by the military to a base in California and kept alive there for sometime on ventilators). Yet the Barnett and Maltias accounts make no mention of him, period.
The other interesting thing that comes up in Bill's story is, despite the adherrents of the military cover up claiming that nothing would ever be found at Roswell since the military grabbed the lot, that he claims to have been finding little bits of debris in that area after every heavy rain for years afterwards. As he tells it, he lost the collection after one time where he went 'into Corona one evening and said more than he should' [again- so much for threats] and a Capt. Armstrong turns up on the ranch the next day and after being shown the debris (he was particularly interested in the string stuff) tells Bill that it's vital to national security to let him take it all back with him. Bill, not knowing what else to do agrees (no mention of threats or other methods of forced compliance are made, so it seems that Bill gave it up of his own accord).
There's no time given for when Bill and Lamme had their conversation. In fact page 82 is the only time Lamme is mentioned. Which is interesting since Lamme, according to Brazel, claimed to have entered the alleged craft and found 2 live aliens suffering from inhalation burns (who were transported by the military to a base in California and kept alive there for sometime on ventilators). Yet the Barnett and Maltias accounts make no mention of him, period.
The other interesting thing that comes up in Bill's story is, despite the adherrents of the military cover up claiming that nothing would ever be found at Roswell since the military grabbed the lot, that he claims to have been finding little bits of debris in that area after every heavy rain for years afterwards. As he tells it, he lost the collection after one time where he went 'into Corona one evening and said more than he should' [again- so much for threats] and a Capt. Armstrong turns up on the ranch the next day and after being shown the debris (he was particularly interested in the string stuff) tells Bill that it's vital to national security to let him take it all back with him. Bill, not knowing what else to do agrees (no mention of threats or other methods of forced compliance are made, so it seems that Bill gave it up of his own accord).
I have found conflicting reports about the time of the declassification of Project Mogul.
This one, which is an excerpt, states the year was 1972:
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-28...oswell-New.html
Another states July 10, 1947:
http://www.cufos.org/ros6.html
If the quoted account is true from Bill Brazel:
Since the Captain asked to retrieve the debris, citing national security concerns, then it seems plausible and sensible that Project Mogul was still classified and that the Captain was acting in this capacity. If this is true, and since Mr. Brazel is said to have found debris for several years afterward, then this would preclude the likelihood that the project was declassified on "July 10, 1947." Therefore the assertion that the project was declassified a few days after the initial incident would obviously be a fabrication.
QUOTE (someoldguy @ Jul 3 2008, 11:00 PM)
I have found conflicting reports about the time of the declassification of Project Mogul.
This one, which is an excerpt, states the year was 1972:
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-28...oswell-New.html
Another states July 10, 1947:
http://www.cufos.org/ros6.html
If the quoted account is true from Bill Brazel:
Since the Captain asked to retrieve the debris, citing national security concerns, then it seems plausible and sensible that Project Mogul was still classified and that the Captain was acting in this capacity. And since Mr. Brazel is said to have found debris for several years afterward, then this would preclude the likelihood that the project was declassified on "July 10, 1947." Therefore, the assertion that the project was declassified a few days after the initial incident would obviously be a fabrication.
This one, which is an excerpt, states the year was 1972:
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-28...oswell-New.html
Another states July 10, 1947:
http://www.cufos.org/ros6.html
If the quoted account is true from Bill Brazel:
Since the Captain asked to retrieve the debris, citing national security concerns, then it seems plausible and sensible that Project Mogul was still classified and that the Captain was acting in this capacity. And since Mr. Brazel is said to have found debris for several years afterward, then this would preclude the likelihood that the project was declassified on "July 10, 1947." Therefore, the assertion that the project was declassified a few days after the initial incident would obviously be a fabrication.
My apologies if you've seen this before, but the Army FOI reports I presented in this Roswell thread Link also show other classified operations were occuring at the time 'Roswell' hit the press.
Notice how Flying Disk/Saucer tends to be the subject header for reports possibly connected to leads experimental Nazi aircraft/avionic research and the eventual search for the Horton Brothers. Either those reports are some very sophisticated peices of disinformation (to the ETH for Roswell) doctored after the event; or the premature release with 'Flying Saucer' emblazoned in the headlines made the brass feel that the lid on some rather sensitive operations (my hypothesis) in Europe was about to be blown. Admittedly there were other headlines earlier in that year where flying disks were mentioned, but this was the first one that cited a military source for the origin (an Intelligence officer to boot, could that be why the public reaction by the Army was so rushed?). The others were found by private citizens and generally found to be hoaxes (in some cases practical jokes at the expense of the finder).
So the cover up seems more likely as an attempt to stop potential damage to any number of classified operations that were being conducted on both sides of the Atlantic, as opposed to the shock of having an Extraterrestrial spaceship crash/airburst over US soil.
QUOTE
My apologies if you've seen this before, but the Army FOI reports I presented in this Roswell thread Link also show other classified operations were occuring at the time 'Roswell' hit the press.
Notice how Flying Disk/Saucer tends to be the subject header for reports possibly connected to leads experimental Nazi aircraft/avionic research and the eventual search for the Horton Brothers. Either those reports are some very sophisticated peices of disinformation (to the ETH for Roswell) doctored after the event; or the premature release with 'Flying Saucer' emblazoned in the headlines made the brass feel that the lid on some rather sensitive operations (my hypothesis) in Europe was about to be blown. Admittedly there were other headlines earlier in that year where flying disks were mentioned, but this was the first one that cited a military source for the origin (an Intelligence officer to boot, could that be why the public reaction by the Army was so rushed?). The others were found by private citizens and generally found to be hoaxes (in some cases practical jokes at the expense of the finder).
So the cover up seems more likely as an attempt to stop potential damage to any number of classified operations that were being conducted on both sides of the Atlantic, as opposed to the shock of having an Extraterrestrial spaceship crash/airburst over US soil.
Notice how Flying Disk/Saucer tends to be the subject header for reports possibly connected to leads experimental Nazi aircraft/avionic research and the eventual search for the Horton Brothers. Either those reports are some very sophisticated peices of disinformation (to the ETH for Roswell) doctored after the event; or the premature release with 'Flying Saucer' emblazoned in the headlines made the brass feel that the lid on some rather sensitive operations (my hypothesis) in Europe was about to be blown. Admittedly there were other headlines earlier in that year where flying disks were mentioned, but this was the first one that cited a military source for the origin (an Intelligence officer to boot, could that be why the public reaction by the Army was so rushed?). The others were found by private citizens and generally found to be hoaxes (in some cases practical jokes at the expense of the finder).
So the cover up seems more likely as an attempt to stop potential damage to any number of classified operations that were being conducted on both sides of the Atlantic, as opposed to the shock of having an Extraterrestrial spaceship crash/airburst over US soil.
No, this is the first I've seen of this, since I'm the new kid on the block.
Fascinating read! Thank you very much.
Now it's starting to gel. All we need now are the bowls, the spoons, and the CoolWhip!
Trouble is, i don't know how secret Operation Paperclip was, it obviously must have been, but it goes back to the old problem of test-flrying classified aircraft, in the vicinity of an active AAF airfield, and, apparently, not telling them that they were doing so. Unless the base personnel at roswell were just acting that they knew nothing all along, and I don't know if the Air Force included that as part of its training. If they worked in Intelligence, then they might, but it does seem as if the ordinary officers of the 509th hadn't a clue what might be trundling around in their airspace, particularly if they were also crashing in their airspace. Added to which, the designs that were evaluated in Operation Paperclip are now public knowledge; and I've never seen any mention that any of them crashed at the time and place in question. And I am, as I mentioned earlier somewhere, sceptical about the idea that something may have been kept secret for 60 years.
QUOTE (747400 @ Jul 4 2008, 12:48 AM)
Trouble is, i don't know how secret Operation Paperclip was, it obviously must have been, but it goes back to the old problem of test-flrying classified aircraft, in the vicinity of an active AAF airfield, and, apparently, not telling them that they were doing so. Unless the base personnel at roswell were just acting that they knew nothing all along, and I don't know if the Air Force included that as part of its training. If they worked in Intelligence, then they might, but it does seem as if the ordinary officers of the 509th hadn't a clue what might be trundling around in their airspace, particularly if they were also crashing in their airspace. Added to which, the designs that were evaluated in Operation Paperclip are now public knowledge; and I've never seen any mention that any of them crashed at the time and place in question. And I am, as I mentioned earlier somewhere, sceptical about the idea that something may have been kept secret for 60 years.
Not so much for what exactly crashed at Roswell, but rather a kneejerk to seeing a possible code word in print and an Intelligence Officer as the source for the leak.
For me the documents point to a damage control for a more 'mundane' security leak. Hypothetically, if this was the case, then the military's actions make a lot more sense, especially when one considers that bogus newspaper reports were one method of covert communication. Not saying that Haut or the RDR were working for the reds, but a London school teacher was detained for a week during WW2 because the weekly crossword puzzle he did up for the newspaper had a few solutions that were very close to some of the codewords being used in an upcoming operation. So it's possible that somewhere in the chain someone hit the metaphorical panic button.
I'm fairly certain that the US authourities at the time realised just how sensitive an issue bringing 'Nazi's' into the ConUS was. There's enough evidence to suggest that total discretion was the order of the day. And one can only wonder about the allegations that members of the Japanese Unit 731 being brought over to continue their work. Not to say that Redfern is any more correct in his theory over any other. But it is interesting none the less.
Unfortunately my theory doesn't really have an answer for what exactly (if anything at all) crashed at Roswell, just more data that says that something more mundane can't be ruled out :/
Just a note on the work of the Horton Brothers.... The USA made an absolute and utter screw up of monumental proportions with regards to it all... There is the famous story of how. When they first really started, seriously, looking into building *stealth* craft. They only came across the Horton' brothers work on a trip to the museum where, the single surviving prototype of one of their later designs, is kept. It was a total Eureka moment, but it was donkeys years after Roswell.
Neither of the Hortons worked for the Americans. If i remember rightly, one went to South America the other, stayed in Germany. Now here there is an important point. Taking technicians from Messerschmidt and Heinkel just meant, because of rivalries, they were never going to give the likes of the Hortons any real credit. It's a fact of life in a capitalist society that competition means rival firms and their personnel are rarely willing to *talk up* any rivals ideas. It is simple self preservation. If you are a German brought over to the USA you hardly likely to say.."Oh well you don;t really want me you want the Hortons", are they?; given they could just get sent back to Germany to answer a few tricky questions
You don't believe me.? Just lookup the history of the British developed TSR2 and how it was over decade ahead of anything the Americans had. The American military saw it and were drooling over it. They wanted it big time. Did they get it? Errr no, they got the Phantom and the F111 which were, compared to the TSR2 toys. The TSR2 was scrapped and every last jig and every last tool destroyed, as part of a financial deal between the USA and Britain. The main movers behind that? MacDonald Douglas and Lockheed.
The truth is that, for many many years post WW2, only the CIA got what it wanted, ie the U2, never officially in service with the USAF. The armed services got what the money men gave them.
Neither of the Hortons worked for the Americans. If i remember rightly, one went to South America the other, stayed in Germany. Now here there is an important point. Taking technicians from Messerschmidt and Heinkel just meant, because of rivalries, they were never going to give the likes of the Hortons any real credit. It's a fact of life in a capitalist society that competition means rival firms and their personnel are rarely willing to *talk up* any rivals ideas. It is simple self preservation. If you are a German brought over to the USA you hardly likely to say.."Oh well you don;t really want me you want the Hortons", are they?; given they could just get sent back to Germany to answer a few tricky questions
You don't believe me.? Just lookup the history of the British developed TSR2 and how it was over decade ahead of anything the Americans had. The American military saw it and were drooling over it. They wanted it big time. Did they get it? Errr no, they got the Phantom and the F111 which were, compared to the TSR2 toys. The TSR2 was scrapped and every last jig and every last tool destroyed, as part of a financial deal between the USA and Britain. The main movers behind that? MacDonald Douglas and Lockheed.
The truth is that, for many many years post WW2, only the CIA got what it wanted, ie the U2, never officially in service with the USAF. The armed services got what the money men gave them.
The TSR2 was a very fine aircraft, but the RAF never actually got the F-111s either (from General Dynamics, not Lockheed) (and which also turned out to be a pretty good aircraft when they got the bugs ironed out); the Phantoms (which was about the most versatile post-war jet ever) were only ordered after the MOD decided that it couldn't afford the F-111s; and I don't think anyone who ever operated them would complain about not getting value for money.
...sorry, off topic a bit, but I just had to defend the Phantom.
Please, carry on.
...sorry, off topic a bit, but I just had to defend the Phantom.
Please, carry on.
Don't get me wrong. I'm Not knocking the Phantom, but the TSR2 was the difference between a B52 and a B29 and a Me 262 and a Mustang combined.
The relevance to Roswell might be subtle but there is one, none the less... I can easily see the mindset of the USAAF being..Yeeehah, we have a saucer... if we tell everyone, the Government, will have to let us investigate it and try and use it.?
The relevance to Roswell might be subtle but there is one, none the less... I can easily see the mindset of the USAAF being..Yeeehah, we have a saucer... if we tell everyone, the Government, will have to let us investigate it and try and use it.?
QUOTE (Evangium @ Jul 3 2008, 01:38 PM)
So the cover up seems more likely as an attempt to stop potential damage to any number of classified operations that were being conducted on both sides of the Atlantic, as opposed to the shock of having an Extraterrestrial spaceship crash/airburst over US soil.
If you had read the report, the military was unaware of any classified crash in the area for days, which simply means, that you are incorrect at best. If a classified military project crashes, the military isn't going to wait several days for a civilian sheriff to let them know they lost a classified aircraft.
Just common sense logic, you understand.
QUOTE
Please, carry on.
OK.
All right, enough carrying on for the day.
I'm repeating somewhat what I said earlier, but this is where I am right now, which is pretty much where I was beforehand:
For purposes of national security, exposure to an object of unknown, possible extraterrestrial origin would likely entail a quarantine of those involved and those in the general area.
However, there is no evidence to suggest that any of those who saw or handled the debris at Roswell was ever subject to any medical quarantine--i.e. isolation so that medical evaluation could be performed for biological or radiation contamination. This would include a long list of people, by all accounts, especially Mr. Brazel. He was not only not medically quarantined and isolated, but he was seen in public accompanied by military personnel shortly after the incident.
Therefore, it seems highly unlikely that any "alien spacecraft" idea is even worthy of consideration in the Roswell case.
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