So why do americans need all of these nanny's from england to come over here and show us how to raise our kids? Better yet, why is their a problem with our kids to begin with? What's causing it? Where did it begin? And why does all of western society seem to be falling downard, losing it's moral base? Why do teens think demeaning women in music, acting like a thug, cursing, disrespecting others, and breaking the laws are cool and okay things to do?
I'd like to recante a sermon a Pastor once made that seemed to answer all these questions very simply.
His sermon started out much like the first paragraph of this topic, he asked the questions this topic is asking, why are kids so unruly and disrespectful why don't they seem to grasp right and wrong and the consequences of it? The answer he gave was this: Evolution.
Yes, evolution. For to sum up his words and ideas, Pastor Shane pointed out that the truth, right and wrong, and morality all come from God. And the fact that mankind was created by God, and that human beings are high beings. We are above animals, we're not equal to or below them. We have standards and are made in God's image to promote and strive for goodness and Godliy things..... Keeps us on the right path. As our founding U.S. documents put it, We find these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness! You see, knowing that we are unique and made by God, and that there are consequences for bad actions sets people on the straight and narrow, it keeps society working. It's what society is based on, order, law, and morality.
But evolution extinguishes all of these principals. It states that we don't come from God, we come from animals, apes, that if you trace our origin back to the beging of life we came from nothing more than a single celled organism. Evolution states that the law of the universe is that the strongest and craftiest survives, it's jungle law that is the supreme law of the land. You see in evolution there's no place for helping the weak, defending the innocent, or sacraficing to do the right thing. The only thing that matters is survival and being number one. But most importantly evolution elminates all rules and morality. In evolution we're nothing more than animals, so for us to act like them is no bad or unusual thing because that's just what we are. In school kids are taught that all cultures are equal because there is no definate truth or set of morals because we're all just animals and all rules and notions of right and wrong are made up, therefore everyone is free to chose whatever he thinks is best, and even if someone else thinks it's wrong it doesn't matter because it's whatever you want, and hey monkey see monkey do.
And it's with this philosophy that parents have lost control. The kids are confused. On one hand they're told it's not nice to talk dirty or hit people......and on the other hand they're taught they're just another animal and that there's no real right or wrong only what people have made up. So.... the parent is left asking the child why did you do that, and the child is left saying why wouldn't I? There's no reason not to, we create our own rules and morality since no truth actually exists, only the law of the jungle.
And so society sink deeper and deeper into the murk. With everyone being brought up from youth to believe there's nothing special about the human animal. It's just an animal, and so no rules are followed, no laws are obeyed, especially not those of God. And no authority is respected, not God, not parents, not anyone. And then people wonder why....... Why are there sensless killings? Why do people not value human life? Why is everything so corrupt? Well, ask youself, why indeed, if we're just animals and there are no consequences what does it matter anyway.................?
Full Version: Why kids miss behave, society moving downward
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs
QUOTE (TheEssenceofExcellence @ Jun 29 2008, 09:43 AM) 
So why do americans need all of these nanny's from england to come over here and show us how to raise our kids? Better yet, why is their a problem with our kids to begin with? What's causing it? Where did it begin? And why does all of western society seem to be falling downard, losing it's moral base? Why do teens think demeaning women in music, acting like a thug, cursing, disrespecting others, and breaking the laws are cool and okay things to do?
I'd like to recante a sermon a Pastor once made that seemed to answer all these questions very simply.
His sermon started out much like the first paragraph of this topic, he asked the questions this topic is asking, why are kids so unruly and disrespectful why don't they seem to grasp right and wrong and the consequences of it? The answer he gave was this: Evolution.
Yes, evolution. For to sum up his words and ideas, Pastor Shane pointed out that the truth, right and wrong, and morality all come from God. And the fact that mankind was created by God, and that human beings are high beings. We are above animals, we're not equal to or below them. We have standards and are made in God's image to promote and strive for goodness and Godliy things..... Keeps us on the right path. As our founding U.S. documents put it, We find these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness! You see, knowing that we are unique and made by God, and that there are consequences for bad actions sets people on the straight and narrow, it keeps society working. It's what society is based on, order, law, and morality.
But evolution extinguishes all of these principals. It states that we don't come from God, we come from animals, apes, that if you trace our origin back to the beging of life we came from nothing more than a single celled organism. Evolution states that the law of the universe is that the strongest and craftiest survives, it's jungle law that is the supreme law of the land. You see in evolution there's no place for helping the weak, defending the innocent, or sacraficing to do the right thing. The only thing that matters is survival and being number one. But most importantly evolution elminates all rules and morality. In evolution we're nothing more than animals, so for us to act like them is no bad or unusual thing because that's just what we are. In school kids are taught that all cultures are equal because there is no definate truth or set of morals because we're all just animals and all rules and notions of right and wrong are made up, therefore everyone is free to chose whatever he thinks is best, and even if someone else thinks it's wrong it doesn't matter because it's whatever you want, and hey monkey see monkey do.
And it's with this philosophy that parents have lost control. The kids are confused. On one hand they're told it's not nice to talk dirty or hit people......and on the other hand they're taught they're just another animal and that there's no real right or wrong only what people have made up. So.... the parent is left asking the child why did you do that, and the child is left saying why wouldn't I? There's no reason not to, we create our own rules and morality since no truth actually exists, only the law of the jungle.
And so society sink deeper and deeper into the murk. With everyone being brought up from youth to believe there's nothing special about the human animal. It's just an animal, and so no rules are followed, no laws are obeyed, especially not those of God. And no authority is respected, not God, not parents, not anyone. And then people wonder why....... Why are there sensless killings? Why do people not value human life? Why is everything so corrupt? Well, ask youself, why indeed, if we're just animals and there are no consequences what does it matter anyway.................?
I'd like to recante a sermon a Pastor once made that seemed to answer all these questions very simply.
His sermon started out much like the first paragraph of this topic, he asked the questions this topic is asking, why are kids so unruly and disrespectful why don't they seem to grasp right and wrong and the consequences of it? The answer he gave was this: Evolution.
Yes, evolution. For to sum up his words and ideas, Pastor Shane pointed out that the truth, right and wrong, and morality all come from God. And the fact that mankind was created by God, and that human beings are high beings. We are above animals, we're not equal to or below them. We have standards and are made in God's image to promote and strive for goodness and Godliy things..... Keeps us on the right path. As our founding U.S. documents put it, We find these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness! You see, knowing that we are unique and made by God, and that there are consequences for bad actions sets people on the straight and narrow, it keeps society working. It's what society is based on, order, law, and morality.
But evolution extinguishes all of these principals. It states that we don't come from God, we come from animals, apes, that if you trace our origin back to the beging of life we came from nothing more than a single celled organism. Evolution states that the law of the universe is that the strongest and craftiest survives, it's jungle law that is the supreme law of the land. You see in evolution there's no place for helping the weak, defending the innocent, or sacraficing to do the right thing. The only thing that matters is survival and being number one. But most importantly evolution elminates all rules and morality. In evolution we're nothing more than animals, so for us to act like them is no bad or unusual thing because that's just what we are. In school kids are taught that all cultures are equal because there is no definate truth or set of morals because we're all just animals and all rules and notions of right and wrong are made up, therefore everyone is free to chose whatever he thinks is best, and even if someone else thinks it's wrong it doesn't matter because it's whatever you want, and hey monkey see monkey do.
And it's with this philosophy that parents have lost control. The kids are confused. On one hand they're told it's not nice to talk dirty or hit people......and on the other hand they're taught they're just another animal and that there's no real right or wrong only what people have made up. So.... the parent is left asking the child why did you do that, and the child is left saying why wouldn't I? There's no reason not to, we create our own rules and morality since no truth actually exists, only the law of the jungle.
And so society sink deeper and deeper into the murk. With everyone being brought up from youth to believe there's nothing special about the human animal. It's just an animal, and so no rules are followed, no laws are obeyed, especially not those of God. And no authority is respected, not God, not parents, not anyone. And then people wonder why....... Why are there sensless killings? Why do people not value human life? Why is everything so corrupt? Well, ask youself, why indeed, if we're just animals and there are no consequences what does it matter anyway.................?
Oh baloney.Most Atheist/Agnostic countries have less crime/social ills. Believe me they do, I've been around.
It's peer pressure, genetics, junk food, neglect, poor parenting skills,being in a country that glorifies war, guns,violence, lack of good role models, ignorance, poverty(as in feeling disadvantaged), coercsion into being materialistic and the media (television is a brain-drain-american kids sit in front of the box more so than any other country) that makes children naughty & disrespectful> not being taught about evolution. Things were corrupt before evolution came along. Think about it
.
I doubt it has anything to do with a belief in evolution. But I am glad I do not live under an atheist, anti-religious, regime.
http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2002.1.4.2819.31942.html
It is most likely all these countries had decent, respectable kids...and why not? Challenging authority in an atheist, anti-religious, regime might just cost you your life.
QUOTE
Joseph Stalin, Atheist: 20 million plus dead
Mao-Tse-Tung, Atheist: 40 million plus dead
Pol Pot, Atheist: 2 million dead
Kim-Il-Sung, Atheist: 5 million dead
Fidel Castro, Atheist: 1 million dead
Mao-Tse-Tung, Atheist: 40 million plus dead
Pol Pot, Atheist: 2 million dead
Kim-Il-Sung, Atheist: 5 million dead
Fidel Castro, Atheist: 1 million dead
http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2002.1.4.2819.31942.html
It is most likely all these countries had decent, respectable kids...and why not? Challenging authority in an atheist, anti-religious, regime might just cost you your life.
I totally agree.
Some Atheists might say that you've played the "Appeal to Totalitarian Dictatorship" card, in order to intentionally make Atheism look bad. To them I say, Nay, All Atheists are totally evil, totalitarian dictators, scheming to mass murder millions upon millions solely in the name of promoting Atheism.
Some Atheists might say that suppresion of Religion by a Totalitarian Dictatorship is inevitable, and a byproduct of wanting to divide and conquer by banning their right of assembly and freedom of expresson, rather than an explicit goal. To them I say, Nay, Nay and thrice Nay. Did you not see Mao-Tse-Tung's T-shirt with the picture of Richard Dawkins on the front? Proof positive that Totalitarian Dictatorship is a byproduct of Evil Atheism and not the other way around.
Apparently, Mao-Tse-Tung was also a poet. Verily, I say unto thee - we should abandon all poetry, as it is surely just another aspect of the evil Atheism that leads directly to Totalitarian Dictatorship and Mass murdering atrocities. Apart from that which appears in the Good Book, naturally.
Some Atheists might say that you've played the "Appeal to Totalitarian Dictatorship" card, in order to intentionally make Atheism look bad. To them I say, Nay, All Atheists are totally evil, totalitarian dictators, scheming to mass murder millions upon millions solely in the name of promoting Atheism.
Some Atheists might say that suppresion of Religion by a Totalitarian Dictatorship is inevitable, and a byproduct of wanting to divide and conquer by banning their right of assembly and freedom of expresson, rather than an explicit goal. To them I say, Nay, Nay and thrice Nay. Did you not see Mao-Tse-Tung's T-shirt with the picture of Richard Dawkins on the front? Proof positive that Totalitarian Dictatorship is a byproduct of Evil Atheism and not the other way around.
Apparently, Mao-Tse-Tung was also a poet. Verily, I say unto thee - we should abandon all poetry, as it is surely just another aspect of the evil Atheism that leads directly to Totalitarian Dictatorship and Mass murdering atrocities. Apart from that which appears in the Good Book, naturally.
On the subject of death toll;
Make of it what you will...
How many people have been killed by Christianity since Biblical times?
Make of it what you will...
How many people have been killed by Christianity since Biblical times?
QUOTE (TheEssenceofExcellence @ Jun 29 2008, 05:43 PM)
So why do americans need all of these nanny's from england to come over here and show us how to raise our kids? Better yet, why is their a problem with our kids to begin with? What's causing it? Where did it begin? And why does all of western society seem to be falling downard, losing it's moral base? Why do teens think demeaning women in music, acting like a thug, cursing, disrespecting others, and breaking the laws are cool and okay things to do?
I'd like to recante a sermon a Pastor once made that seemed to answer all these questions very simply.
His sermon started out much like the first paragraph of this topic, he asked the questions this topic is asking, why are kids so unruly and disrespectful why don't they seem to grasp right and wrong and the consequences of it? The answer he gave was this: Evolution.
Yes, evolution. For to sum up his words and ideas, Pastor Shane pointed out that the truth, right and wrong, and morality all come from God. And the fact that mankind was created by God, and that human beings are high beings. We are above animals, we're not equal to or below them. We have standards and are made in God's image to promote and strive for goodness and Godliy things..... Keeps us on the right path. As our founding U.S. documents put it, We find these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness! You see, knowing that we are unique and made by God, and that there are consequences for bad actions sets people on the straight and narrow, it keeps society working. It's what society is based on, order, law, and morality.
But evolution extinguishes all of these principals. It states that we don't come from God, we come from animals, apes, that if you trace our origin back to the beging of life we came from nothing more than a single celled organism. Evolution states that the law of the universe is that the strongest and craftiest survives, it's jungle law that is the supreme law of the land. You see in evolution there's no place for helping the weak, defending the innocent, or sacraficing to do the right thing. The only thing that matters is survival and being number one. But most importantly evolution elminates all rules and morality. In evolution we're nothing more than animals, so for us to act like them is no bad or unusual thing because that's just what we are. In school kids are taught that all cultures are equal because there is no definate truth or set of morals because we're all just animals and all rules and notions of right and wrong are made up, therefore everyone is free to chose whatever he thinks is best, and even if someone else thinks it's wrong it doesn't matter because it's whatever you want, and hey monkey see monkey do.
And it's with this philosophy that parents have lost control. The kids are confused. On one hand they're told it's not nice to talk dirty or hit people......and on the other hand they're taught they're just another animal and that there's no real right or wrong only what people have made up. So.... the parent is left asking the child why did you do that, and the child is left saying why wouldn't I? There's no reason not to, we create our own rules and morality since no truth actually exists, only the law of the jungle.
And so society sink deeper and deeper into the murk. With everyone being brought up from youth to believe there's nothing special about the human animal. It's just an animal, and so no rules are followed, no laws are obeyed, especially not those of God. And no authority is respected, not God, not parents, not anyone. And then people wonder why....... Why are there sensless killings? Why do people not value human life? Why is everything so corrupt? Well, ask youself, why indeed, if we're just animals and there are no consequences what does it matter anyway.................?
I'd like to recante a sermon a Pastor once made that seemed to answer all these questions very simply.
His sermon started out much like the first paragraph of this topic, he asked the questions this topic is asking, why are kids so unruly and disrespectful why don't they seem to grasp right and wrong and the consequences of it? The answer he gave was this: Evolution.
Yes, evolution. For to sum up his words and ideas, Pastor Shane pointed out that the truth, right and wrong, and morality all come from God. And the fact that mankind was created by God, and that human beings are high beings. We are above animals, we're not equal to or below them. We have standards and are made in God's image to promote and strive for goodness and Godliy things..... Keeps us on the right path. As our founding U.S. documents put it, We find these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness! You see, knowing that we are unique and made by God, and that there are consequences for bad actions sets people on the straight and narrow, it keeps society working. It's what society is based on, order, law, and morality.
But evolution extinguishes all of these principals. It states that we don't come from God, we come from animals, apes, that if you trace our origin back to the beging of life we came from nothing more than a single celled organism. Evolution states that the law of the universe is that the strongest and craftiest survives, it's jungle law that is the supreme law of the land. You see in evolution there's no place for helping the weak, defending the innocent, or sacraficing to do the right thing. The only thing that matters is survival and being number one. But most importantly evolution elminates all rules and morality. In evolution we're nothing more than animals, so for us to act like them is no bad or unusual thing because that's just what we are. In school kids are taught that all cultures are equal because there is no definate truth or set of morals because we're all just animals and all rules and notions of right and wrong are made up, therefore everyone is free to chose whatever he thinks is best, and even if someone else thinks it's wrong it doesn't matter because it's whatever you want, and hey monkey see monkey do.
And it's with this philosophy that parents have lost control. The kids are confused. On one hand they're told it's not nice to talk dirty or hit people......and on the other hand they're taught they're just another animal and that there's no real right or wrong only what people have made up. So.... the parent is left asking the child why did you do that, and the child is left saying why wouldn't I? There's no reason not to, we create our own rules and morality since no truth actually exists, only the law of the jungle.
And so society sink deeper and deeper into the murk. With everyone being brought up from youth to believe there's nothing special about the human animal. It's just an animal, and so no rules are followed, no laws are obeyed, especially not those of God. And no authority is respected, not God, not parents, not anyone. And then people wonder why....... Why are there sensless killings? Why do people not value human life? Why is everything so corrupt? Well, ask youself, why indeed, if we're just animals and there are no consequences what does it matter anyway.................?
Just another red neck Christian preacher trying to justify his self-righteous beliefs.
QUOTE (Tiggs @ Jun 29 2008, 08:00 PM)
I totally agree.
Some Atheists might say that you've played the "Appeal to Totalitarian Dictatorship" card, in order to intentionally make Atheism look bad. To them I say, Nay, All Atheists are totally evil, totalitarian dictators, scheming to mass murder millions upon millions solely in the name of promoting Atheism.
Some Atheists might say that suppresion of Religion by a Totalitarian Dictatorship is inevitable, and a byproduct of wanting to divide and conquer by banning their right of assembly and freedom of expresson, rather than an explicit goal. To them I say, Nay, Nay and thrice Nay. Did you not see Mao-Tse-Tung's T-shirt with the picture of Richard Dawkins on the front? Proof positive that Totalitarian Dictatorship is a byproduct of Evil Atheism and not the other way around.
Apparently, Mao-Tse-Tung was also a poet. Verily, I say unto thee - we should abandon all poetry, as it is surely just another aspect of the evil Atheism that leads directly to Totalitarian Dictatorship and Mass murdering atrocities. Apart from that which appears in the Good Book, naturally.
Some Atheists might say that you've played the "Appeal to Totalitarian Dictatorship" card, in order to intentionally make Atheism look bad. To them I say, Nay, All Atheists are totally evil, totalitarian dictators, scheming to mass murder millions upon millions solely in the name of promoting Atheism.
Some Atheists might say that suppresion of Religion by a Totalitarian Dictatorship is inevitable, and a byproduct of wanting to divide and conquer by banning their right of assembly and freedom of expresson, rather than an explicit goal. To them I say, Nay, Nay and thrice Nay. Did you not see Mao-Tse-Tung's T-shirt with the picture of Richard Dawkins on the front? Proof positive that Totalitarian Dictatorship is a byproduct of Evil Atheism and not the other way around.
Apparently, Mao-Tse-Tung was also a poet. Verily, I say unto thee - we should abandon all poetry, as it is surely just another aspect of the evil Atheism that leads directly to Totalitarian Dictatorship and Mass murdering atrocities. Apart from that which appears in the Good Book, naturally.
Here here
I think the problem with Western society is due to WW2.
Liberals and the left have used it as an excuse to push good, common sense right-wing politics out of Western society.
Now we find, and this especially applies to Britain and America, that their societies are deeply negative. Nothing has been done to keep the negative policies of these styles of government in check and so our society degenerates further and further each day.
Say you believe religion should play an important role in the state and they will paint you as a facist. They've nearly completely got rid of it in fact.
Say you believe in capital and corporal punishment and you'll get the same response.
These people need banning from politics then we can get back to having good strong family values where our people's are positive, productive, have respect for each other and most of all are happy.
Liberals and the left have used it as an excuse to push good, common sense right-wing politics out of Western society.
Now we find, and this especially applies to Britain and America, that their societies are deeply negative. Nothing has been done to keep the negative policies of these styles of government in check and so our society degenerates further and further each day.
Say you believe religion should play an important role in the state and they will paint you as a facist. They've nearly completely got rid of it in fact.
Say you believe in capital and corporal punishment and you'll get the same response.
These people need banning from politics then we can get back to having good strong family values where our people's are positive, productive, have respect for each other and most of all are happy.
The problem with the kids is the parents. A lot of parents have the attitudes that their children pick up and it disgusts the parents because no one likes to look in the mirror and see garbage. Too many parents have a "do as I say, not as I do" fool's philosophy and as a result their children are jacked up. A parent without substance raises a child without substance. As religion declines, it's only inevitable that children lose the moral values that come from religion.
QUOTE (momentarylapseofreason @ Jun 29 2008, 09:09 AM)
It's peer pressure, genetics, junk food, neglect, poor parenting skills,being in a country that glorifies war, guns,violence, lack of good role models, ignorance, poverty(as in feeling disadvantaged), coercsion into being materialistic and the media (television is a brain-drain-american kids sit in front of the box more so than any other country) that makes children naughty & disrespectful> not being taught about evolution. Things were corrupt before evolution came along. Think about it
Correct, scapegoating has no basis. Nowadays, Hip-hop is the source of all of societies ills, ten years ago it was Marilyn Manson, ten years before that it was Judas Priest, back in the 50s it was Elvis and Jerry Lee Lewis. Why are those past scapegoats acceptable now?
Imagine if they did manage to beat evolution, utterly destroy the truth and cover it up, there'd still be problems, what would they blame next? Heliocentricism? "Clearly the Bible says that the Earth is fixed and the sun and moon go around it, heliocentricism says that God was wrong, and kids these days think that if God was wrong about where the Earth was then he must be wrong about Thou Shalt Not Kill."
OP, sorry that you have an irrational fear of the truth.
QUOTE (atom286 @ Jun 29 2008, 11:53 AM)
I think the problem with Western society is due to WW2.
Liberals and the left have used it as an excuse to push good, common sense right-wing politics out of Western society.
Now we find, and this especially applies to Britain and America, that their societies are deeply negative. Nothing has been done to keep the negative policies of these styles of government in check and so our society degenerates further and further each day.
Say you believe religion should play an important role in the state and they will paint you as a facist. They've nearly completely got rid of it in fact.
Say you believe in capital and corporal punishment and you'll get the same response.
These people need banning from politics then we can get back to having good strong family values where our people's are positive, productive, have respect for each other and most of all are happy.
Liberals and the left have used it as an excuse to push good, common sense right-wing politics out of Western society.
Now we find, and this especially applies to Britain and America, that their societies are deeply negative. Nothing has been done to keep the negative policies of these styles of government in check and so our society degenerates further and further each day.
Say you believe religion should play an important role in the state and they will paint you as a facist. They've nearly completely got rid of it in fact.
Say you believe in capital and corporal punishment and you'll get the same response.
These people need banning from politics then we can get back to having good strong family values where our people's are positive, productive, have respect for each other and most of all are happy.
I think you're as ignorant as the original poster. First of all, if we stuck with the right wing we'd still have segregation and unequality between the sexes. You need to take a step back and look at the big picture, lowering taxes and pushing christianity does not make a good society. Religion shouldn't play an important role in the state because, firstly there's no evidence that any of the religions known to man are correct, secondly, the abrahamic religions have incredibly violent and terrible sacred texts, and thirdly the western world is secular, not to push non-believers ideas, but to protect different sects from religious persecution.
You can't ban anyone from politics, you know why, because then you would be a facist, and a one party system would be a totalitarian state, if you want to live in a country like that, well grab a bunch of like minded people and secede from whichever country you're part of.
Theres a Comendy Inc.! sketch where the make fun of the AIG insurance commericals (oranges) and the blond guy with the accent keeps blaming the jews...
Just made me think of that reading all of this right here...
Just made me think of that reading all of this right here...
QUOTE (TheEssenceofExcellence @ Jun 29 2008, 01:43 AM)
So why do americans need all of these nanny's from england to come over here and show us how to raise our kids? Better yet, why is their a problem with our kids to begin with? What's causing it? Where did it begin? And why does all of western society seem to be falling downard, losing it's moral base? Why do teens think demeaning women in music, acting like a thug, cursing, disrespecting others, and breaking the laws are cool and okay things to do?
I'd like to recante a sermon a Pastor once made that seemed to answer all these questions very simply.
His sermon started out much like the first paragraph of this topic, he asked the questions this topic is asking, why are kids so unruly and disrespectful why don't they seem to grasp right and wrong and the consequences of it? The answer he gave was this: Evolution.
Yes, evolution. For to sum up his words and ideas, Pastor Shane pointed out that the truth, right and wrong, and morality all come from God. And the fact that mankind was created by God, and that human beings are high beings. We are above animals, we're not equal to or below them. We have standards and are made in God's image to promote and strive for goodness and Godliy things..... Keeps us on the right path. As our founding U.S. documents put it, We find these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness! You see, knowing that we are unique and made by God, and that there are consequences for bad actions sets people on the straight and narrow, it keeps society working. It's what society is based on, order, law, and morality.
But evolution extinguishes all of these principals. It states that we don't come from God, we come from animals, apes, that if you trace our origin back to the beging of life we came from nothing more than a single celled organism. Evolution states that the law of the universe is that the strongest and craftiest survives, it's jungle law that is the supreme law of the land. You see in evolution there's no place for helping the weak, defending the innocent, or sacraficing to do the right thing. The only thing that matters is survival and being number one. But most importantly evolution elminates all rules and morality. In evolution we're nothing more than animals, so for us to act like them is no bad or unusual thing because that's just what we are. In school kids are taught that all cultures are equal because there is no definate truth or set of morals because we're all just animals and all rules and notions of right and wrong are made up, therefore everyone is free to chose whatever he thinks is best, and even if someone else thinks it's wrong it doesn't matter because it's whatever you want, and hey monkey see monkey do.
And it's with this philosophy that parents have lost control. The kids are confused. On one hand they're told it's not nice to talk dirty or hit people......and on the other hand they're taught they're just another animal and that there's no real right or wrong only what people have made up. So.... the parent is left asking the child why did you do that, and the child is left saying why wouldn't I? There's no reason not to, we create our own rules and morality since no truth actually exists, only the law of the jungle.
And so society sink deeper and deeper into the murk. With everyone being brought up from youth to believe there's nothing special about the human animal. It's just an animal, and so no rules are followed, no laws are obeyed, especially not those of God. And no authority is respected, not God, not parents, not anyone. And then people wonder why....... Why are there sensless killings? Why do people not value human life? Why is everything so corrupt? Well, ask youself, why indeed, if we're just animals and there are no consequences what does it matter anyway.................?
I'd like to recante a sermon a Pastor once made that seemed to answer all these questions very simply.
His sermon started out much like the first paragraph of this topic, he asked the questions this topic is asking, why are kids so unruly and disrespectful why don't they seem to grasp right and wrong and the consequences of it? The answer he gave was this: Evolution.
Yes, evolution. For to sum up his words and ideas, Pastor Shane pointed out that the truth, right and wrong, and morality all come from God. And the fact that mankind was created by God, and that human beings are high beings. We are above animals, we're not equal to or below them. We have standards and are made in God's image to promote and strive for goodness and Godliy things..... Keeps us on the right path. As our founding U.S. documents put it, We find these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness! You see, knowing that we are unique and made by God, and that there are consequences for bad actions sets people on the straight and narrow, it keeps society working. It's what society is based on, order, law, and morality.
But evolution extinguishes all of these principals. It states that we don't come from God, we come from animals, apes, that if you trace our origin back to the beging of life we came from nothing more than a single celled organism. Evolution states that the law of the universe is that the strongest and craftiest survives, it's jungle law that is the supreme law of the land. You see in evolution there's no place for helping the weak, defending the innocent, or sacraficing to do the right thing. The only thing that matters is survival and being number one. But most importantly evolution elminates all rules and morality. In evolution we're nothing more than animals, so for us to act like them is no bad or unusual thing because that's just what we are. In school kids are taught that all cultures are equal because there is no definate truth or set of morals because we're all just animals and all rules and notions of right and wrong are made up, therefore everyone is free to chose whatever he thinks is best, and even if someone else thinks it's wrong it doesn't matter because it's whatever you want, and hey monkey see monkey do.
And it's with this philosophy that parents have lost control. The kids are confused. On one hand they're told it's not nice to talk dirty or hit people......and on the other hand they're taught they're just another animal and that there's no real right or wrong only what people have made up. So.... the parent is left asking the child why did you do that, and the child is left saying why wouldn't I? There's no reason not to, we create our own rules and morality since no truth actually exists, only the law of the jungle.
And so society sink deeper and deeper into the murk. With everyone being brought up from youth to believe there's nothing special about the human animal. It's just an animal, and so no rules are followed, no laws are obeyed, especially not those of God. And no authority is respected, not God, not parents, not anyone. And then people wonder why....... Why are there sensless killings? Why do people not value human life? Why is everything so corrupt? Well, ask youself, why indeed, if we're just animals and there are no consequences what does it matter anyway.................?
Hmmm, picking a scapegoat...good for you. a traditionalist; I like it. Perhaps you guys should stick to religion though, as you suck at picking a scapegoat. I thought this was a joke when I first read it.
Unfortunately it is clear that the person that wrote the sermon hasn’t the first clue about evolution, or the implication of evolution. Perhaps it is people like him that are cluelessly pointing at evolution as the world’s problems while his children knock over liquor stores rather than...oh...raising his children, studying, learning, thinking outside the bible.
Evolution does not eliminate all rules and morality. That wins the prize as the silliest comment I have heard in years. To clue the writer in, rules (and morality) are created by the society itself; not by an invisible god. Whether you go to the deepest jungle society or the driest most lonely desert population, they have rules just like every other place on earth with their own morals.
Christians do not have the corner market on morals, and I do not know why they think they do. It is so frustrating to see these folka make these comments that then get spewed again by their followers....I wish this guy would take a college course on anthropology so he didn’t have to embarrass himself like that.
Billions of people all over the world over the past hundreds of thousands of years(I hate to break it to you) have created wonderful societies with great morals that have absolutely NOTHING to do with YOUR god. What now? Their children were well mannered and did fine...without your god.
Think...learn...teach you kids a few things, including manners. Don’t depend on the self righteous "pastor shanes" of the world to tell you what is wrong; how can you possibly learn for yourself what is wrong with the world when always being spoon fed and seeing things through the filtered mouths of the "pastor shanes" of the world?
Think for yourselves.
There is so are many things wrong with this thread...Christianity passing blame to the competition...how so very original.
QUOTE (Cadetak @ Jun 29 2008, 12:10 PM)
There is so are many things wrong with this thread...Christianity passing blame to the competition...how so very original.
::Shakes head:: Yeah, it seems like just another dig at Evolution by someone who really can't argue against it. Its the old mentality of "Well, we've lost the argument against it, so lets demonize it so that people will be afraid of it!" If this kind of BS keeps up, we'll be set back for years...
QUOTE
But evolution extinguishes all of these principals. It states that we don't come from God, we come from animals, apes, that if you trace our origin back to the beging of life we came from nothing more than a single celled organism.
Are you trying to tell us it was a sin for one curious individual to ponder the origins of humanity from a perspective other than Creationism? Are you saying that it was wrong for one person to, with their God-given right of free will, explore another possibility of our existence here and now? After all the evidence we've found to do with evolution, you're saying we should turn our back to it, that Yahweh created us and we should all embrace it to live in an ideal society?
QUOTE
...that all men are created equal...
God could not accept a priest who had slightly imperfect testicles or a slightly crooked penis, so he was deemed unfit for the job. Sounds pretty equal, not everyone can embrace God's holiness because they were born with one testicle hung a little lower than the other.
QUOTE
...and are endowed by their Creator with the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness!
I can't recall a whole lot of moments in Biblical history when we got life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness, only moments when we were forfeiting our own and giving it all to God.
I can see your point on humans being referred to as animals and that leading us downhill into confusion. But part of liberty is being able to make our own choices. We're told what's right, and what's wrong... it's up to us to follow it. We should always be forgiven. I don't feel your God can do that. I say 'your God' with the conviction that Christianity's view on God is not entirely right. And that's my God-given choice to make.
QUOTE (~Kaizen CJM~ @ Jun 29 2008, 08:42 AM)
The problem with the kids is the parents. A lot of parents have the attitudes that their children pick up and it disgusts the parents because no one likes to look in the mirror and see garbage. Too many parents have a "do as I say, not as I do" fool's philosophy and as a result their children are jacked up. A parent without substance raises a child without substance. As religion declines, it's only inevitable that children lose the moral values that come from religion.
So its only non religious families that turn out the derelicts?
Is religion declining? Or just the Christian religion? So moral values only come from religion? Sorry but what a bunch of malarkey.
QUOTE (Fluffybunny @ Jun 29 2008, 09:59 AM)
Hmmm, picking a scapegoat...good for you. a traditionalist; I like it. Perhaps you guys should stick to religion though, as you suck at picking a scapegoat. I thought this was a joke when I first read it.
Unfortunately it is clear that the person that wrote the sermon hasn’t the first clue about evolution, or the implication of evolution. Perhaps it is people like him that are cluelessly pointing at evolution as the world’s problems while his children knock over liquor stores rather than...oh...raising his children, studying, learning, thinking outside the bible.
Evolution does not eliminate all rules and morality. That wins the prize as the silliest comment I have heard in years. To clue the writer in, rules (and morality) are created by the society itself; not by an invisible god. Whether you go to the deepest jungle society or the driest most lonely desert population, they have rules just like every other place on earth with their own morals.
Christians do not have the corner market on morals, and I do not know why they think they do. It is so frustrating to see these folka make these comments that then get spewed again by their followers....I wish this guy [b]would take a college course on anthropology so he didn’t have to embarrass himself like that.
Billions of people all over the world over the past hundreds of thousands of years(I hate to break it to you) have created wonderful societies with great morals that have absolutely NOTHING to do with YOUR god. What now? Their children were well mannered and did fine...without your god.
[/b]
Think...learn...teach you kids a few things, including manners. Don’t depend on the self righteous "pastor shanes" of the world to tell you what is wrong; how can you possibly learn for yourself what is wrong with the world when always being spoon fed and seeing things through the filtered mouths of the "pastor shanes" of the world?
Think for yourselves.
Unfortunately it is clear that the person that wrote the sermon hasn’t the first clue about evolution, or the implication of evolution. Perhaps it is people like him that are cluelessly pointing at evolution as the world’s problems while his children knock over liquor stores rather than...oh...raising his children, studying, learning, thinking outside the bible.
Evolution does not eliminate all rules and morality. That wins the prize as the silliest comment I have heard in years. To clue the writer in, rules (and morality) are created by the society itself; not by an invisible god. Whether you go to the deepest jungle society or the driest most lonely desert population, they have rules just like every other place on earth with their own morals.
Christians do not have the corner market on morals, and I do not know why they think they do. It is so frustrating to see these folka make these comments that then get spewed again by their followers....I wish this guy [b]would take a college course on anthropology so he didn’t have to embarrass himself like that.
Billions of people all over the world over the past hundreds of thousands of years(I hate to break it to you) have created wonderful societies with great morals that have absolutely NOTHING to do with YOUR god. What now? Their children were well mannered and did fine...without your god.
[/b]
Think...learn...teach you kids a few things, including manners. Don’t depend on the self righteous "pastor shanes" of the world to tell you what is wrong; how can you possibly learn for yourself what is wrong with the world when always being spoon fed and seeing things through the filtered mouths of the "pastor shanes" of the world?
Think for yourselves.
Agreed, agreed, agreed. Missed this before I posted.
I think the world is a scary place when religion is relied upon to teach morals and the like. Makes less work for parents, eh?
It's not religion, it's bad parenting.
I swear, if these parents got off the drugs and pushed for
the legalization of the Parental Powerbomb, this kind of
garbage wouldn't go on.
I swear, if these parents got off the drugs and pushed for
the legalization of the Parental Powerbomb, this kind of
garbage wouldn't go on.
If you are looking for a reason for social decline (if society is really declining and I don't think it is)* see end of post. The reason is the atomic age. Before if there was a war it was localized, and usually didn't happen in western societies back yard. I agree with the poster who talked about WW2 but thats only part of it. From that period on western society (can't say much about others) sort of unconciously took the idea that with the bomb, we should live for today not tomorrow. Unlike my grandparents who grew up in the Depression and understood that things change and that you might want to plan for tomorrow, since the baby boomers this idea isn't what it used to be.
Living your life under the idea that any day a bomb from another country you can't really wrap your brain around could end life as we know it. Think of how consumer driven the 80's were. That overwhelming need to live life fast, have as much stuff as you can, and not worry about tomorrow. Religion while to some is comforting, can't stop a warhead. I think that over time, with that mentality we have as a society come to see ourselves as having everything taken away from us at any moment so live now.
I don't think that people have given up totally but got caught in a cycle of stuff makes me happy, therefore I need more stuff, have to work for more stuff so I can be happy..etc. The stuff is just a diversion from that idea that we might all die. I think there was a brief pause of that after the Cold War ended, but as soon as 9/11 happened we went right back to the gloom and doom.
*I actually think we aren't in decline just going through growing pains. I would rather live now than say the Dark Ages, I like a cold clean glass of water, and I like antibiotics, so I think we have it pretty good.
Living your life under the idea that any day a bomb from another country you can't really wrap your brain around could end life as we know it. Think of how consumer driven the 80's were. That overwhelming need to live life fast, have as much stuff as you can, and not worry about tomorrow. Religion while to some is comforting, can't stop a warhead. I think that over time, with that mentality we have as a society come to see ourselves as having everything taken away from us at any moment so live now.
I don't think that people have given up totally but got caught in a cycle of stuff makes me happy, therefore I need more stuff, have to work for more stuff so I can be happy..etc. The stuff is just a diversion from that idea that we might all die. I think there was a brief pause of that after the Cold War ended, but as soon as 9/11 happened we went right back to the gloom and doom.
*I actually think we aren't in decline just going through growing pains. I would rather live now than say the Dark Ages, I like a cold clean glass of water, and I like antibiotics, so I think we have it pretty good.
QUOTE (Clovis @ Jun 29 2008, 11:47 AM)
I doubt it has anything to do with a belief in evolution. But I am glad I do not live under an atheist, anti-religious, regime.
http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2002.1.4.2819.31942.html
It is most likely all these countries had decent, respectable kids...and why not? Challenging authority in an atheist, anti-religious, regime might just cost you your life.
http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2002.1.4.2819.31942.html
It is most likely all these countries had decent, respectable kids...and why not? Challenging authority in an atheist, anti-religious, regime might just cost you your life.
So can this cost Atheist kids living in Atheist/Agnostic Europe their life if they challenge Authority ? They don't even have the death sentence
All those dictators were immoral and didn't want the competition of people of believing in a god and some reward in the end. THEY were their gods or wanted to be. People will put up a fight more readily if they see some huge reward in the end>those jihadists can attest to this, can't they ?
Jim Jones and his followers had religion too. You may say it was a cult but I say religion is just a cult that has been "established" and accepted.
Fact is we all have the capability to raise good moral children>believer or not.
Look at some of these fanatic Islamic countries. Are they anti-religious ? I think not. Think about Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia. Think of all the little Jihadists >they have religion too. It doesn't make all things alright.
And we aren't implying Atheism will make our kids better. Parenting skills, education,genetics, external factors and peer pressure will shape a human being the most. Fear of hell may help
My uncle was raised devoutly religious and even became a minister. He ended up raping two of his stepdaughters and impregnated my 13 yr. old cousin. And he cheated on his wife all the time and we suspect he even had her murdered when she wanted a divorce. He has lots of money to lose.
Of course an Atheist can do the same evil.
Even immoral kids come from the best of homes as you know.
And why is it that most serial killers come from the USA and a have some kind of religious background ?(yes, maybe because it is a christian country) I'm not saying it's the cause but it leaves you scratching your head in wonder. A psychiatrist might be able to answer that one for us.
You can be practically brainwashed into demon possession by religious people and actually start acting upon it, when you start believing it. Maybe the fear of Satan & demons can cause some kind of psychotic stress disorder if you are already vulnerable to psychiatric disorders.
Atheists don't go around thinking they are being tempted by evil spirits.
One gets the impression that some/or alot of you believers have a very dark side that can only be suppressed by fear of god and a big reward in the end. I find this deeply disturbing.
Why so afraid & suspicious ?
QUOTE (Emelianenko Fungus @ Jun 30 2008, 04:56 AM)
It's not religion, it's bad parenting.
I swear, if these parents got off the drugs and pushed for
the legalization of the Parental Powerbomb, this kind of
garbage wouldn't go on.
I swear, if these parents got off the drugs and pushed for
the legalization of the Parental Powerbomb, this kind of
garbage wouldn't go on.
Bingo, but not just with parents.
Drugs (illicit more so) even alcohol 'abuse' are the most menacing plague everywhere, impacting & destroying families/family structure more than anything else in society.
I believe it has to do with parental responsibility. All too often I observe parents who have child after child and don't spend time with their children, teach them that there is a right way and a wrong way to go about life. I apologize if someone has already stated this; I was too lazy to read through all the posts. 
QUOTE (TheEssenceofExcellence @ Jun 29 2008, 01:43 AM)
So why do americans need all of these nanny's from england to come over here and show us how to raise our kids? Better yet, why is their a problem with our kids to begin with? What's causing it? Where did it begin? And why does all of western society seem to be falling downard, losing it's moral base? Why do teens think demeaning women in music, acting like a thug, cursing, disrespecting others, and breaking the laws are cool and okay things to do?
If right wing Christians are convinced the world is going to hell in a handbasket shouldn't they be rejoicing? After all, aren't these the "signs" that "your redemption draws near?" Aren't these the days of Noah spoken of by Jesus? I can't help but notice this weird contradiction, that Christians are supposed to be "not of this world" as they love to brag about with decals on their cars, and yet they are so darned concerned that the world they are not apart of isn't following their way! Why be surprised people are not following the Christian way of handling the family? They are supposed to do that right? They are the unsaved heathens correct?
Also, just because one believes we are decendants of the ape doesn't mean they fail to love, care, nuture, and worry about the world and it's inhabitiants. You are pointing out the extremes here, most families don't behave like fools, it's just that the fools get more attention with the media. Use common sense.
QUOTE (Clovis @ Jun 29 2008, 05:47 AM)
I doubt it has anything to do with a belief in evolution. But I am glad I do not live under an atheist, anti-religious, regime.
http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2002.1.4.2819.31942.html
It is most likely all these countries had decent, respectable kids...and why not? Challenging authority in an atheist, anti-religious, regime might just cost you your life.
http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2002.1.4.2819.31942.html
It is most likely all these countries had decent, respectable kids...and why not? Challenging authority in an atheist, anti-religious, regime might just cost you your life.
no you can choose to live in a theist regime. like the one Bushco would have if allowed or don't think that's enough ? move to Iran. the ultimate theist regime.
Hitler = christian = 6 million + killed
shall we venture into the crusades ? the reformation ? witch hunts ? millions killed there. how about plain old conversion ? plenty killed by christians there too.
# As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial edict (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
# Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
# Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
# Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
# Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
# Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
# In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
# In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
# The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
* Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
* Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
* 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Number of victims unknown. [DO30]
* 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]
Crusades (1095-1291)
* First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
* Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
* 9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then Turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
* Until January 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
* After 6/3/98 Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women and children) killed.
[WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
* Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
# Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude."
# The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
# Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of Palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". [WW41]
# Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. Thousands of heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
# Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
we could go on if you wish -
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/10...n-killed-by.php
QUOTE (Fluffybunny @ Jun 29 2008, 09:59 AM)
Christians do not have the corner market on morals, and I do not know why they think they do.
They don't, nor do they think that they do. It is the people who gawk and guffaw at their ridiculous claims, and the people who put them on pedestals in order to embarass them that have this idea that Christian's seem to believe that they have a corner market on morals. They take a stand that other groups are unwilling to take. Granted, they are not the only group to do such things, but they are most certainly the largest to do so. The world is changing, it doesn't like Christian ideals. With luck Christianity will fade out and disappear.
QUOTE (LadyHay @ Jun 29 2008, 12:12 PM)
So its only non religious families that turn out the derelicts?
I didn't say that. However, you cannot teach a child moral values without a higher power or enforcing powers. Not if you are fair you can't.
QUOTE
Is religion declining? Or just the Christian religion? So moral values only come from religion? Sorry but what a bunch of malarkey.
Current moral values stem from Jewish ideas and philosophies. The positive view of religion is fading. And that (so I believe) is part of the cause of the vile youth running around nowadays.
One could make a convincing arguement that the reason that youth are changing is because the societal rules for people in adolescence is changing all the time. If you look at the recent past (last two hundred years) the time of young adulthood is getting longer and longer. The average age of marriage used to be much much younger, and the time spent in school, much shorter. Children used to work at a younger age and were responsible for more at a younger age.
As the change in society happened with industrialization over the last hundred years or so, more children stay in school longer, delay adulthood until an arbitrary age of 18 and therefore "stay younger" longer. This free time, where most kids do not work and are supported by parents allows for kids to have more of a social life, more freedom and therefore more time to get into trouble. The whole latchkey kids phenomenon starting in the late Seventies into now, where kids are left alone for hours at home while their parents work. All of this has nothing whatsoever to do with religion or moral differences, more a drastic change in the way society and culture in Western countries works.
As the change in society happened with industrialization over the last hundred years or so, more children stay in school longer, delay adulthood until an arbitrary age of 18 and therefore "stay younger" longer. This free time, where most kids do not work and are supported by parents allows for kids to have more of a social life, more freedom and therefore more time to get into trouble. The whole latchkey kids phenomenon starting in the late Seventies into now, where kids are left alone for hours at home while their parents work. All of this has nothing whatsoever to do with religion or moral differences, more a drastic change in the way society and culture in Western countries works.
Why does it even matter? This has been going on for so long now, Christianity at war with Darwinism and vice versa. But to the Christian, why must this possibility seem so evil and contrary to your beliefs? If man is spirit, then who cares if he descended from an ape? Furthermore, could not evolution, in a sense even be used as a sort of proof FOR God? It is highly plausible that the entire evolutionary process is a guided one.
No, the real problem has nothing to do with evolution. It has to do with materialism. Ours is a culture that thrives upon greed, and achieving personal gain at any cost. We are obsessed with the products we buy, the cars we drive.......our own consumerism has become our God. This is the problem. Evolution has nothing to do with it.
And I don't mean this in the scope of just Christianity, either. We could all be better people, be you Christian, Muslim, Atheist, or whatever.....if we stopped putting the self first. COMPASSION. This is true spirituality, whether you are a believer or an unbeliever. This is how we should live. Where are we storing our treasures, as the Bible says? This is the problem. Anyone who would blame a THEORY is a fool.
No, the real problem has nothing to do with evolution. It has to do with materialism. Ours is a culture that thrives upon greed, and achieving personal gain at any cost. We are obsessed with the products we buy, the cars we drive.......our own consumerism has become our God. This is the problem. Evolution has nothing to do with it.
And I don't mean this in the scope of just Christianity, either. We could all be better people, be you Christian, Muslim, Atheist, or whatever.....if we stopped putting the self first. COMPASSION. This is true spirituality, whether you are a believer or an unbeliever. This is how we should live. Where are we storing our treasures, as the Bible says? This is the problem. Anyone who would blame a THEORY is a fool.
QUOTE (~Kaizen CJM~ @ Jun 29 2008, 08:35 PM)
They don't, nor do they think that they do. It is the people who gawk and guffaw at their ridiculous claims, and the people who put them on pedestals in order to embarass them that have this idea that Christian's seem to believe that they have a corner market on morals. They take a stand that other groups are unwilling to take. Granted, they are not the only group to do such things, but they are most certainly the largest to do so. The world is changing, it doesn't like Christian ideals. With luck Christianity will fade out and disappear.
I didn't say that. However, you cannot teach a child moral values without a higher power or enforcing powers. Not if you are fair you can't.
I didn't say that. However, you cannot teach a child moral values without a higher power or enforcing powers. Not if you are fair you can't.
Please explain this. I take it to mean that you are saying that I will be unsuccessful in teaching my children moral values because I do not use a god in my teachings? I am also not sure what you mean by enforcing powers.
QUOTE
Current moral values stem from Jewish ideas and philosophies. The positive view of religion is fading. And that (so I believe) is part of the cause of the vile youth running around nowadays.
Current moral values stem from Jewish ideas and philosophies and not just because morality is deemed to be a good and positive thing? We need religion or, according to you, Jewish ideas and philosophies to tell us right from wrong? The positive view of religion IS fading. I agree. I think more and more people are becoming spiritual without feeling the need to box themselves into the confines of religion. I would like to see proof of "vile youth" as opposed to 20 years ago. People keep making this statement and I have yet to see any evidence of this.
QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Jun 30 2008, 11:39 AM)
no you can choose to live in a theist regime. like the one Bushco would have if allowed or don't think that's enough ? move to Iran. the ultimate theist regime.
Hitler = christian = 6 million + killed
shall we venture into the crusades ? the reformation ? witch hunts ? millions killed there. how about plain old conversion ? plenty killed by christians there too.
# As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial edict (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
# Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
# Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
# Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
# Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
# Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
# In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
# In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
# The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
* Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
* Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
* 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Number of victims unknown. [DO30]
* 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]
Crusades (1095-1291)
* First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
* Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
* 9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then Turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
* Until January 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
* After 6/3/98 Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women and children) killed.
[WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
* Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
# Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude."
# The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
# Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of Palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". [WW41]
# Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. Thousands of heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
# Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
we could go on if you wish -
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/10...n-killed-by.php
Hitler = christian = 6 million + killed
shall we venture into the crusades ? the reformation ? witch hunts ? millions killed there. how about plain old conversion ? plenty killed by christians there too.
# As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial edict (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
# Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
# Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
# Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
# Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
# Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
# In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
# In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
# The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
* Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
* Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
* 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Number of victims unknown. [DO30]
* 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]
Crusades (1095-1291)
* First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
* Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
* 9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then Turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
* Until January 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
* After 6/3/98 Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women and children) killed.
[WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
* Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
# Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude."
# The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
# Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of Palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". [WW41]
# Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. Thousands of heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
# Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
we could go on if you wish -
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/10...n-killed-by.php
lol! I posted that link earlier, never bothered to add up & post the stats, my calculator would have gone ape sh*t.
Just on the Americas tho; An estimated more than 60 million indigenous killed (butchered/slaughtered) in the Americas alone when Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:
"I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]
History Of Religion Under 2 mins <--Watch Christianity rock 'n roll.
QUOTE (LadyHay @ Jun 29 2008, 10:38 PM)
Please explain this. I take it to mean that you are saying that I will be unsuccessful in teaching my children moral values because I do not use a god in my teachings? I am also not sure what you mean by enforcing powers.
What I mean is that you cannot teach your child values and expect them to live by them unless a higher moral authority makes that expectation. Of course, I presume that you are a sane person and consider your children to be human beings and not property. I also presume that you consider them equal to you as human beings and thus of the same capacity of judging moral values. If these are true, then you cannot enforce a moral set of values on your child. For instance, suppose your child asks you to murder someone. You say no. He asks why. What answer can you respond with? Because it harms someone? That is your value, and since there is no higher moral authority to enforce it, you cannot expect the child to not murder because you taught him that murder is wrong. Suppose he wants to steal a box of candy from Walmart. Who does it harm? The candy is 80cents and Walmart is a multi-billion dollar corporation. Do you say no to your child's theft? And if you do say no, what will you respond with when he says why?
QUOTE
Current moral values stem from Jewish ideas and philosophies and not just because morality is deemed to be a good and positive thing? We need religion or, according to you, Jewish ideas and philosophies to tell us right from wrong? The positive view of religion IS fading. I agree. I think more and more people are becoming spiritual without feeling the need to box themselves into the confines of religion.
That attitude is part of the problem. It's this "I'm boxed in by subscribing to a value system other than one I determined for myself". Quite honestly, its foolish. Religion does not attempt to box people in. It does not limit anyone, and it most certainly does not take away freedom. That sort of view is the view of a paranoid conspiracist. Why not say, "More and more people prefer to go off and study by themselves and determine by themselves on spiritual matters, without the central structure and suport of a religious body"? Why is it always that people use words such as "religious control" "boxed in" etc etc etc? These attitudes creates an egocentric mindset in a child, one that tells the child that only what he thinks is important, anyone who tells you otherwise is "boxing you in".
QUOTE
I would like to see proof of "vile youth" as opposed to 20 years ago. People keep making this statement and I have yet to see any evidence of this.
You do not interact with many youths (13-19) I presume?
QUOTE (~Kaizen CJM~ @ Jun 30 2008, 09:24 AM)
What I mean is that you cannot teach your child values and expect them to live by them unless a higher moral authority makes that expectation. Of course, I presume that you are a sane person and consider your children to be human beings and not property. I also presume that you consider them equal to you as human beings and thus of the same capacity of judging moral values. If these are true, then you cannot enforce a moral set of values on your child. For instance, suppose your child asks you to murder someone. You say no. He asks why. What answer can you respond with? Because it harms someone? That is your value, and since there is no higher moral authority to enforce it, you cannot expect the child to not murder because you taught him that murder is wrong. Suppose he wants to steal a box of candy from Walmart. Who does it harm? The candy is 80cents and Walmart is a multi-billion dollar corporation. Do you say no to your child's theft? And if you do say no, what will you respond with when he says why?
otherwise is "boxing you in".
You do not interact with many youths (13-19) I presume?
otherwise is "boxing you in".
You do not interact with many youths (13-19) I presume?
Yes, children that are little sociopaths need god I guess so that they don't murder and steal.
So Europe should be in a murderous rage by now, shouldn't they, them not believing in god and all, and having no capital punishment readily available ?
You know.............alot of human beings possess empathy by nature. What kind of people have you been surrounded by ?
We aren't all so emotionally handicapped as you assume us to be.
So what kind of person would you be if you didn't believe in god ? Do we have to fear your answer ?
This is very insulting to all children to assume they can't be good without a higher power.
They need guidance, NOT FEAR
I try to teach my children by the golden rule, treat others as you would be treated. I try to back it up with an explanation of consequences for their behavior. If you murder, then you condone murder, you thereby are susceptible to that yourself, meaning if someone murdered you it would be ok. (maybe murder was a bad example.) I don't think you need a holy presence to instill morals or ethics, they are a basic human quality. My wife and children do attend church regularly though, but I see it as a reinforcement of the values they are already being taught at home. JMO 
QUOTE (brahman1888 @ Jun 30 2008, 06:04 AM)
Why does it even matter? This has been going on for so long now, Christianity at war with Darwinism and vice versa. But to the Christian, why must this possibility seem so evil and contrary to your beliefs? If man is spirit, then who cares if he descended from an ape? Furthermore, could not evolution, in a sense even be used as a sort of proof FOR God? It is highly plausible that the entire evolutionary process is a guided one
It's simple. A group of influential Christians believe that belief in Evolution is the major cause of Christianity losing traction throughout the Western world, hence why it is under constant attack. While this belief in Evolution exists, Christian expansion is stalled and in decline.
That's why there's a war against Evolution. It's manifesto is called the Wedge strategy, a political and social action plan authored by the Discovery Institute.
QUOTE (Tiggs @ Jun 30 2008, 08:54 AM)
It's simple. A group of influential Christians believe that belief in Evolution is the major cause of Christianity losing traction throughout the Western world, hence why it is under constant attack. While this belief in Evolution exists, Christian expansion is stalled and in decline.
That's why there's a war against Evolution. It's manifesto is called the Wedge strategy, a political and social action plan authored by the Discovery Institute.
That's why there's a war against Evolution. It's manifesto is called the Wedge strategy, a political and social action plan authored by the Discovery Institute.
I didn't even know about this.
So the war of religion and science is still an ongoing one. This is insanity.
The science that has saved many peoples lives is now the great Satan. LOL !! How ironic !
It makes me feel some people don't deserve its usefulness then (if they despise it so much).
edited-for a momentary lapse of sanity
QUOTE (~Kaizen CJM~ @ Jun 30 2008, 12:24 AM)
What I mean is that you cannot teach your child values and expect them to live by them unless a higher moral authority makes that expectation. Of course, I presume that you are a sane person and consider your children to be human beings and not property. I also presume that you consider them equal to you as human beings and thus of the same capacity of judging moral values. If these are true, then you cannot enforce a moral set of values on your child. For instance, suppose your child asks you to murder someone. You say no. He asks why. What answer can you respond with? Because it harms someone? That is your value, and since there is no higher moral authority to enforce it, you cannot expect the child to not murder because you taught him that murder is wrong. Suppose he wants to steal a box of candy from Walmart. Who does it harm? The candy is 80cents and Walmart is a multi-billion dollar corporation. Do you say no to your child's theft? And if you do say no, what will you respond with when he says why?
That attitude is part of the problem. It's this "I'm boxed in by subscribing to a value system other than one I determined for myself". Quite honestly, its foolish. Religion does not attempt to box people in. It does not limit anyone, and it most certainly does not take away freedom. That sort of view is the view of a paranoid conspiracist. Why not say, "More and more people prefer to go off and study by themselves and determine by themselves on spiritual matters, without the central structure and suport of a religious body"? Why is it always that people use words such as "religious control" "boxed in" etc etc etc? These attitudes creates an egocentric mindset in a child, one that tells the child that only what he thinks is important, anyone who tells you otherwise is "boxing you in".
You do not interact with many youths (13-19) I presume?
That attitude is part of the problem. It's this "I'm boxed in by subscribing to a value system other than one I determined for myself". Quite honestly, its foolish. Religion does not attempt to box people in. It does not limit anyone, and it most certainly does not take away freedom. That sort of view is the view of a paranoid conspiracist. Why not say, "More and more people prefer to go off and study by themselves and determine by themselves on spiritual matters, without the central structure and suport of a religious body"? Why is it always that people use words such as "religious control" "boxed in" etc etc etc? These attitudes creates an egocentric mindset in a child, one that tells the child that only what he thinks is important, anyone who tells you otherwise is "boxing you in".
You do not interact with many youths (13-19) I presume?
Well you certainly couldn't have insulted me much more than you have!!!
Firstly, I can certainly teach my children values and expect them to live by them. I'm trying to understand the rest of your reasoning by religious affectation. In other words, I have to have someone like god tell my kids that murder or stealing is wrong because god has the final say and power and my kids should be afraid of god's wrath? Or something like that?
So, my attitude is part of YOUR problem. I personally have absolutely NO PROBLEM with saying I refuse to be boxed in by subscribing to a value system other than the one I determine for myself. NONE. And I think you're foolish for thinking I would say otherwise. Nice open mind you have there. I have lived this long without YOUR god and I will continue to do so, and I am not the one who is insulting other's belief's or lack thereof. I think the egocentric childlike mind is yours my friend.
I have spirituality. I have morals. I don't need your stuff, whatever it is... thanks.
For what its worth you obviously missed the part where I have children (ages 4 to 13). You assume wayyyy too much, but I assume it makes you feel big to belittle a "heathen" like me.
QUOTE (momentarylapseofreason @ Jun 30 2008, 12:34 AM)
Yes, children that are little sociopaths need god I guess so that they don't murder and steal.
So Europe should be in a murderous rage by now, shouldn't they, them not believing in god and all, and having no capital punishment readily available ?
You know.............alot of human beings possess empathy by nature. What kind of people have you been surrounded by ?
We aren't all so emotionally handicapped as you assume us to be.
So what kind of person would you be if you didn't believe in god ? Do we have to fear your answer ?
This is very insulting to all children to assume they can't be good without a higher power.
They need guidance, NOT FEAR
So Europe should be in a murderous rage by now, shouldn't they, them not believing in god and all, and having no capital punishment readily available ?
You know.............alot of human beings possess empathy by nature. What kind of people have you been surrounded by ?
We aren't all so emotionally handicapped as you assume us to be.
So what kind of person would you be if you didn't believe in god ? Do we have to fear your answer ?
This is very insulting to all children to assume they can't be good without a higher power.
They need guidance, NOT FEAR
YOU are my hero. I spluttered along, so enraged was I, that this guy thinks we are obviously devoid of any human characteristics according to his guideline, that I don't know if my post made any sense.
I wouldn't go quite that far, MLOR.
I've started a separate Thread on the Wedge Strategy in S vs S, so that we can continue discussing "Why Kids misbehave" in this one.
I've started a separate Thread on the Wedge Strategy in S vs S, so that we can continue discussing "Why Kids misbehave" in this one.
QUOTE (TheEssenceofExcellence @ Jun 29 2008, 09:43 AM)
So why do americans need all of these nanny's from england to come over here and show us how to raise our kids?
I agree! The English are much more civilised than the Americans! They are definitely less religious than the Americans so I think I know and like where the rest of your post is going, my atheist comrade!
You might be onto something though......I do get the urge to pull out the ice pipe and go on a murderous rampage after watching a David Attenborough documentary (particularly his mammalian ones) and reading New Scientist magazines
QUOTE (momentarylapseofreason @ Jun 30 2008, 12:34 AM)
So what kind of person would you be if you didn't believe in god ? Do we have to fear your answer ?
This is very insulting to all children to assume they can't be good without a higher power.
They need guidance, NOT FEAR
This is very insulting to all children to assume they can't be good without a higher power.
They need guidance, NOT FEAR
1. I am not saying that you should make a child fearful.
2. It is the belief of Judaism that a person cannot be "good" without God. Good is relative and thus cannot be determined by one single person. Your "good" is not necessarily my "good".
QUOTE (Belle. @ Jun 30 2008, 12:44 PM)
I agree! The English are much more civilised than the Americans! They are definitely less religious than the Americans so I think I know and like where the rest of your post is going, my atheist comrade!
You might be onto something though......I do get the urge to pull out the ice pipe and go on a murderous rampage after watching a David Attenborough documentary (particularly his mammalian ones) and reading New Scientist magazines
You might be onto something though......I do get the urge to pull out the ice pipe and go on a murderous rampage after watching a David Attenborough documentary (particularly his mammalian ones) and reading New Scientist magazines
LMAO !!
QUOTE (Cradle of Fish @ Jun 29 2008, 05:20 PM)
Correct, scapegoating has no basis. Nowadays, Hip-hop is the source of all of societies ills, ten years ago it was Marilyn Manson, ten years before that it was Judas Priest, back in the 50s it was Elvis and Jerry Lee Lewis. Why are those past scapegoats acceptable now?
Imagine if they did manage to beat evolution, utterly destroy the truth and cover it up, there'd still be problems, what would they blame next? Heliocentricism? "Clearly the Bible says that the Earth is fixed and the sun and moon go around it, heliocentricism says that God was wrong, and kids these days think that if God was wrong about where the Earth was then he must be wrong about Thou Shalt Not Kill."
OP, sorry that you have an irrational fear of the truth.
I think you're as ignorant as the original poster. First of all, if we stuck with the right wing we'd still have segregation and unequality between the sexes. You need to take a step back and look at the big picture, lowering taxes and pushing christianity does not make a good society. Religion shouldn't play an important role in the state because, firstly there's no evidence that any of the religions known to man are correct, secondly, the abrahamic religions have incredibly violent and terrible sacred texts, and thirdly the western world is secular, not to push non-believers ideas, but to protect different sects from religious persecution.
You can't ban anyone from politics, you know why, because then you would be a facist, and a one party system would be a totalitarian state, if you want to live in a country like that, well grab a bunch of like minded people and secede from whichever country you're part of.
Imagine if they did manage to beat evolution, utterly destroy the truth and cover it up, there'd still be problems, what would they blame next? Heliocentricism? "Clearly the Bible says that the Earth is fixed and the sun and moon go around it, heliocentricism says that God was wrong, and kids these days think that if God was wrong about where the Earth was then he must be wrong about Thou Shalt Not Kill."
OP, sorry that you have an irrational fear of the truth.
I think you're as ignorant as the original poster. First of all, if we stuck with the right wing we'd still have segregation and unequality between the sexes. You need to take a step back and look at the big picture, lowering taxes and pushing christianity does not make a good society. Religion shouldn't play an important role in the state because, firstly there's no evidence that any of the religions known to man are correct, secondly, the abrahamic religions have incredibly violent and terrible sacred texts, and thirdly the western world is secular, not to push non-believers ideas, but to protect different sects from religious persecution.
You can't ban anyone from politics, you know why, because then you would be a facist, and a one party system would be a totalitarian state, if you want to live in a country like that, well grab a bunch of like minded people and secede from whichever country you're part of.
Firstly who cares which religion is right. Religion brings a fear to people that if they do wrong there will be a comeback for it. Thats the point of me raising it because thats whats missing from the mentality of a lot of people today. I would argue though to reduce conflict nations should stick to one relgion if possible and not try to promote holy wars.
Secondly the right does not cause segragation. Differances cause segragation and even in the globalist world in which we live there is really no such thing as multi-cultural because all differant groups have a tendency to keep themselves to themselves. Segragation is here and always has been and is no invention of the right.
Thirdly I do believe men should stick to being men and women should stick to being women. A child needs a strong father figure in its life if it is to develop properly and a female figure to teach it how to be diplomatic and loving. This is the idea family unit and what all people should aim for because it produces a mentally healthy well-balanced child.
Fourthly extreme politics is damaging for a nation. Just as many believe right wing extremist parties should be banned I believe left wing and Liberal extremist parties should also be banned. What a nation needs is common sense politics not a far out style of government brought in to suite minorities. That is not a totalitarian state. Its a state with the nuts from both ends cut off.
In fact I think we should get rid of Democracy and have a telephone vote in system. You watch a debate on tv and all users have the option to press the green or red button. Then the beaurocrats are left to implement it.
QUOTE (Belle. @ Jun 30 2008, 12:44 PM)
I agree! The English are much more civilised than the Americans! They are definitely less religious than the Americans so I think I know and like where the rest of your post is going, my atheist comrade!
You might be onto something though......I do get the urge to pull out the ice pipe and go on a murderous rampage after watching a David Attenborough documentary (particularly his mammalian ones) and reading New Scientist magazines
You might be onto something though......I do get the urge to pull out the ice pipe and go on a murderous rampage after watching a David Attenborough documentary (particularly his mammalian ones) and reading New Scientist magazines
You've obviously never been to England.
American tv makes me laugh. Where do they get there English people from because we dont talk or act how we are portrayed as doing on your tv programmes. Even the accents are pathetic.
Many of us are religious too so thats wrong. Its just religion in England is something you keep to yourself as people thing you're a crazy if you believe in god.
England might be seen by foreigners as a magical little island where everything is good and nice but in reality thats a lot of rubbish.
QUOTE (~Kaizen CJM~ @ Jun 29 2008, 10:42 AM)
The problem with the kids is the parents. A lot of parents have the attitudes that their children pick up and it disgusts the parents because no one likes to look in the mirror and see garbage. Too many parents have a "do as I say, not as I do" fool's philosophy and as a result their children are jacked up. A parent without substance raises a child without substance. As religion declines, it's only inevitable that children lose the moral values that come from religion.
Thank you. I grew up in the 1960s and 70s. I think alot of it is the fault of these parents,who were part of that generation of it's your thing,do what you want to do.My parents grew up in the 1920s and 30s,and were taught to act like responsible citizens and help others who are in trouble and need,to be polite to older people and stay out of jail,etc.They were 36 and 31 when I was born back in 1956,not like so many of these parents today.When my mom died in 1982 of a stroke,my dad never remarried,it was the only marriage for either of them.We knew who are daddy was,he was there all the time.
When he was in the hospital shortly before he died, he said he was sorry he sometimes tried to run the family like we were his men.(dad was a Cheif,retiring from USAF after 33 years in military). Yet,we knew he was concerned for our welfare, and was our protector.
Our parents were never our friend,not like these stupid people who think they need to be their kids friends.
With the decline in religion in the family,and the glorification of the self over other members of society,no wonder we have a mess on our hands.
We have become a society of thrown away people becuase it seems no one cares,and we are paying for this.
its a combination of a few things as to why society is declining.
1. poor parenting
2. drugs
3. violence and crime glamourised.
4. bad taste music videos ( kids are heavily influenced by these)
5. goverments soft scaredy cat approach.
1. poor parenting
2. drugs
3. violence and crime glamourised.
4. bad taste music videos ( kids are heavily influenced by these)
5. goverments soft scaredy cat approach.
Are we to assume that all kids misbehave? Are we to assume that most kids today misbehave more than in the past years? This is like saying all of the kids today now are misbehaving? Do we have all the statistics and sources to say so? Where are the statistics that say society is moving downward? Is this happening to some, and the others feel differently?
I have two teens, who I think behave very well. I grew up secular and so did they? No drugs, no arrests, no problems. And some wonder why, without religion?
I agree, a lot of it is the parents, but we must assume that the parents are ready to assume the responsiblity. I do see a lot of parents becomes parents, because it's expected of them. Does that make them assume parental responsilbity? No, because they do not see the reason, from my observation. Whether it's religion, family, or maybe government, expectations to marry and reproduce is wrong, if you don't want to do it. I do belive, even there, you should still owe up to your parental responsiblities. In this case although, those who expected you to follow through, should help you!!
Those who wanted to become parents, I'm assuming wanted to assume the parental roles and probably want to do it well. There is so many opinions, educated and what not, that says different things. Secular or religious, not all of them are true, and others might be, but each family is different. I cannot not fathom how a higher power that is not proven, can actually install fear and morals, but that is coming from a secular raised individual.
Bottom line, it is the parents to make sure kids don't behave, but it's also up to the parents to know how and to want to and to be parents. I say this, because I see too many parents, who just followed what they were told, and they have nasty kids. I see parents who went into parenting enthusiastically and they have great kids. It's a chain reaction from one human being to another.
I have two teens, who I think behave very well. I grew up secular and so did they? No drugs, no arrests, no problems. And some wonder why, without religion?
I agree, a lot of it is the parents, but we must assume that the parents are ready to assume the responsiblity. I do see a lot of parents becomes parents, because it's expected of them. Does that make them assume parental responsilbity? No, because they do not see the reason, from my observation. Whether it's religion, family, or maybe government, expectations to marry and reproduce is wrong, if you don't want to do it. I do belive, even there, you should still owe up to your parental responsiblities. In this case although, those who expected you to follow through, should help you!!
Those who wanted to become parents, I'm assuming wanted to assume the parental roles and probably want to do it well. There is so many opinions, educated and what not, that says different things. Secular or religious, not all of them are true, and others might be, but each family is different. I cannot not fathom how a higher power that is not proven, can actually install fear and morals, but that is coming from a secular raised individual.
Bottom line, it is the parents to make sure kids don't behave, but it's also up to the parents to know how and to want to and to be parents. I say this, because I see too many parents, who just followed what they were told, and they have nasty kids. I see parents who went into parenting enthusiastically and they have great kids. It's a chain reaction from one human being to another.
QUOTE (atom286 @ Jun 30 2008, 09:22 PM)
You've obviously never been to England.
American tv makes me laugh. Where do they get there English people from because we dont talk or act how we are portrayed as doing on your tv programmes. Even the accents are pathetic.
Many of us are religious too so thats wrong. Its just religion in England is something you keep to yourself as people thing you're a crazy if you believe in god.
England might be seen by foreigners as a magical little island where everything is good and nice but in reality thats a lot of rubbish.
American tv makes me laugh. Where do they get there English people from because we dont talk or act how we are portrayed as doing on your tv programmes. Even the accents are pathetic.
Many of us are religious too so thats wrong. Its just religion in England is something you keep to yourself as people thing you're a crazy if you believe in god.
England might be seen by foreigners as a magical little island where everything is good and nice but in reality thats a lot of rubbish.
Here's a gift for you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzOBlPKZjxE...feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu8dTvLSRog&NR=1
This link may have already been provided on this thread. If so I apologize.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece
There also "supposedly" is a correlation statistically that the more churches/ the more crime.
But that may just be reaction to the the crime so it is a poor example/argument for belief in god is supposedly linked to crime.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece
There also "supposedly" is a correlation statistically that the more churches/ the more crime.
But that may just be reaction to the the crime so it is a poor example/argument for belief in god is supposedly linked to crime.
QUOTE (tcgram @ Jun 29 2008, 07:44 PM)
I believe it has to do with parental responsibility. All too often I observe parents who have child after child and don't spend time with their children, teach them that there is a right way and a wrong way to go about life. I apologize if someone has already stated this; I was too lazy to read through all the posts.
I agree with you, parents need to grow a backbone and actually discipline their kids instead of doing the "my child wouldn't do that" act, I'm sick of it, I work at a 7-11 and I get this all the time, its called swat your kids on the butt sometimes, take away the cellphone or the car and actually stick with it...I feel sorry for this generation of kids, they are going to grow up and be brats all their lives...ugh...
QUOTE (Rockerchick2008 @ Jul 2 2008, 02:27 AM)
I agree with you, parents need to grow a backbone and actually discipline their kids instead of doing the "my child wouldn't do that" act, I'm sick of it, I work at a 7-11 and I get this all the time, its called swat your kids on the butt sometimes, take away the cellphone or the car and actually stick with it...I feel sorry for this generation of kids, they are going to grow up and be brats all their lives...ugh...
I agree. I love this commercial that I saw in Germany.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=256hagHzqrE...feature=related
Just a few general thoughts here...
People are quick to blame crime or any negative behaviors on the lack of religion. I don't understand why it can't be put down to the individual.
Likewise, there are people, in my opinion, who seem to feel that they cannot parent without input from god or an entire church. Perhaps people need to stop putting so much stock in the church and look towards their own actions.
I feel that people generalize too much. I hear comments like, "why kids misbehave" or "society going downward" "crime rate going upward" with very little thought to those statements. It must be true. Its all over the news... Give me a break. Human nature seems geared to pointing out someone else's fault for why society is poor these days, without looking towards their own contribution. Much in the same way that people actually think they have the answer.
Please.
As for the 7-11. It has long been established to be the hangout for teens. Its no wonder you think ill of what is actually a very thin slice of the pie. If you worked at a library, what cross section of teens do you think you'd find there? LOL...
People are quick to blame crime or any negative behaviors on the lack of religion. I don't understand why it can't be put down to the individual.
Likewise, there are people, in my opinion, who seem to feel that they cannot parent without input from god or an entire church. Perhaps people need to stop putting so much stock in the church and look towards their own actions.
I feel that people generalize too much. I hear comments like, "why kids misbehave" or "society going downward" "crime rate going upward" with very little thought to those statements. It must be true. Its all over the news... Give me a break. Human nature seems geared to pointing out someone else's fault for why society is poor these days, without looking towards their own contribution. Much in the same way that people actually think they have the answer.
Please.
As for the 7-11. It has long been established to be the hangout for teens. Its no wonder you think ill of what is actually a very thin slice of the pie. If you worked at a library, what cross section of teens do you think you'd find there? LOL...
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