Salaam (Peace)

For me, Allah The One is my Saviour and Redeemer. His Mercy is my salvation/redemption. For Christians, Jesus (AS) is the Saviour and Redeemer. Darkwind got me thinking.

I would like to know Who or What is your Saviour? Do you even have a Saviour? Is Salvation/Redemption part of your religious and/or spiritual path?

And is "Salvation" and "Redemption" meaningless to the Atheist?

I'm an atheist and so is my husband, and he agrees with me that to us, 'salvation' and 'redemption' mean nothing to us.

The flying spaghetti monster, his noodly appendage is too appealing.


Atheist.

For me, Jesus alone.
I won't pretend to imagine what an atheist thinks about salvation or anything else, so I can't answer that part.

The Lord is my Shepherd..I shall not want...

Why do we need a saviour? That's really condescending to say that our species needs saving, from what exactly? Almost all of our problems are man-made, and the rest are natural. Instead of waiting around for a Saviour or a messiah or the rapture, how about leaving that as a contingency plan and trying to help your fellow man in the short life you were given by your parents.

good answer. I'll buy that.

we choose to have a savior or not......although I do think the majority of our species does need saving these dyas... from ourselves...I agree with you....

Our problems are created by ourselves....thats for sure, but I do think were beyond the point of saving ourselves at this point unfortunatly....


Your also right here too... Life is too short, make the most of it.... The fruit (me) is known by the tree from which it came....(my parents)

Blessings

I can buy this too.


But the back up plan is Jesus.

I have to counter this with. The tree is known by the fruit it produced. In my family I am a rotten fruit because I am not as greedy as my father. Who told me last year he married my mom to get rich. My mom spent her whole life on welfare.

Honey, you must have rolled down the hill a bit then....

Blessings...

I believe in free will.

Thus, being saved or redeemed (though I'm not sure from what) will only happen if I chose for it to happen (ie. make the right choices). Thus, I would be my own savior or redeemer.

The Lord Jesus Christ is my Savior.

My favorite passage in the entire Bible is this: "Martha saith unto Him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?"—John 11:24-26.
Though my views are not orthodox christian to say the least, I hold fast to the belief of that scripture.

But to the OP, my views of God are much broader in scope. I don't believe one path is the right or the wrong one. Darklight, I believe you are praying to the same God I am. God is simply bigger than any one faith, and IMO, all roads lead to Him. So while we are on different roads, you and I are heading towards the same destination. People of any faith or creed can find their way to God. All faiths go their seperate directions, but all lead to the same place in the end.

Why do I need a savior?

Can I not save myself?

According to the book of Mormon. If I remember right there are many paths to God. But the ones that hold fast to the iron rod(Christ) will have it the easiest. This is not to say that all of them will make it either. Many will fall because of the laughter coming from the non-believers. You know such as those who say that religion is obsolete.

Depends on how you view self. If you deny your own ego, your own vanity, and false sense of self.....and truly put others first, and live a life of compassion.....then yes, yes you can. Right action is the key. Not creed. IMO an atheist can be 'saved'. But the atheist must live right.

The very concept of salvation and a redeemer is philosophically flawed.

Salaam (Peace)

How So???

So something at sometime is going to rid me of my ego and give me compassion?

I don't care if Jesus or Batman wants to save but either or I find it better for people to do things on their own if able and we certainly are able.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.

Good answer.

What exactly am I being saved from that I would need a Savior for? And as Cadetake said:





For what reason am I not able to "save" myself?

I am my own salvation. How I live and behave is my responsibility. If I dishonor myself or do harm to another then it is up to me to make it right. My Gods will guide and protect me, but they will not save me from my own foolishness.

Yes who said Don't have others do things for you that you can do yourself?

The answer is the same for both questions.


Because of the fall of Adam. When Adam eat that fruit we were all condemned. Christ was the safety valve that allowed us to pay for our own sins and not Adam's. However part of that is that Christ said that he would and did pay for our sins. But that being said, Christ has the right on judgment day to remove you from his list if he so wishes.

Well that works if you believe in the Bible, but I don't and the fall of man because of what one man did makes little sense to me.

Where do you get your ideas/theology? Where do you get the idea of Christ removing anybody from His list?

I recognize that Adam brought sin into the world. And that no one is completely good, however, to be saved you must be saved from something, and what exactly is it that I need to be saved from? If it is death, well God offers life in Torah. If it is hell, God is not so cruel as to have such a place eternal. If it sin, well I can rectify myself before God by doing good.

According to the bible. Evil can not produce Good. When Adam ate the fruit he became evil.

I respect that opinion, and for years believed it myself. But ultimately, I just do not agree with it. MAN IS NOT EVIL BY NATURE. No, we have the light of God in us. We are the image of our Creator. If I am not mistaken, you are a Mormon, correct? I actually find much of what Mormonism teaches is quite agreeable; though many fundamentalists do not paint it in such a light. As a Mormon, you believe in the pre-existence of souls, yes? We existed prior to matter? That is the true image of God, we are a part of our Source. The fall, the descent into matter did not make us evil, but rather tainted us. Rather than being above creation, we fused with it, creating a sort of amnesia of the soul. We have merely lost our way, and Christ, then, is that way back....or more accurately living Christ. Man is not evil. The doctrine of original sin, IMO is one of the worst religious ideas ever created. Instead of seeking freedom through God and Christ Consciousness, we bind ourselves further by viewing ourselves as 'wretches' and such. God LOVES us. Would He love evil? What is contrary to His own nature? Sin originated in spirit, not matter. The purpose now, then, of matter is to re-align ourselves spiritually.

Heavenly Father and Mother (God) are My redeemer, all my brothers and sisters who I interact with In the physical, and the spiritual are also my teachers and redeemers.

If one loves the Father , He also loves The Fathger's other child, and itr is thriugh this other child thatr one can forgive and be forgiven, why would any one ask divine forgiveness while leaving God's Other son in the dirt. ?

I ask forgiveness where possible, Then Know Father is proud Of me for taking care of the brother I have hurt before asking for forgiveness from Father while not from the one who was wronged.

Making You (My bro and sis) and God ( Heavenly Father and Mother) as my Savior, and by my actions w/ free-will, Can help in this saving of my own spirit along with helping others, Teaching with Love By , Of and For Love Of my human mbro, and Honor My Spirit family at the same time.

Love Omnaka

A god creates man and gives him the ability to make decisions and calls it, “free will.” He then gives his creation some things they should not do . . . . but, of course, knowing all the while that they have the free will to do otherwise.

But then, this is an omnipotent god . . . . which should mean that he knows what his creation will do anyway but what the hell, he gave them some rules that they subsequently used their free will to break.

Later, he gives a set of rules for all humanity . . . but, of course, all humanity has free will and can and will break those rules with regularity . . . . like daily. And god calls those decisions to use free will . . . . sin.

So then we have the scenario of, you have free will . . . . but don’t use it . . . because god doesn’t like for you to use what he gave you to use.

But just to spice things up a bit, God creates a devil that is the Prince of the Earth. Damn, that’s pretty powerful stuff. Now the devil can even tempt Jesus, so man really doesn’t have much of a chance with him. God makes bets with him and destroys the life of Job, one of his most devoted followers. So much for not using free will.

But if you really use your free will . . . . that means that you sin a lot . . . . God has someone who can save you from the consequences of your free willed sins. So God gives you the ability to use free will . . . has a devil to urge you to use it . . . . condemns you if you use it too much . . . but then sends someone who in some strange contortion of logic, dies so that we can be saved from all that god gave us the power to do.

Do you follow all that? Well, that's how it's all philosophically flawed.

Salaam (Peace)

According to Quran, the Nafs (Soul/Self) is inspired, by Allah, with Taqwa ("God-conscious Righteousness) and Fujoor (Wickedness). Both are inclinations, not actions. Adam (AS) already had this inclination within him, he gave into it, along with his wife Hawa (AS). It is the polarity of Self, that exists throughout creation, as well as within the Soul, as demonstrated by the following Quranic verses. The Rooh (Spirit) has a much more mysterious nature. The Creator is The Creator of all things, nothing comes into existence except by His Will.


1.) By the sun and its brightness

2.) And the moon when it follows

3.) And the day when it reveals it

4.) And the night when it enshrouds it,

5.) And the heaven, and Him Who built it,

6.) And the earth, and Him Who Spread it,

7.) And the Nafs (soul) and Him Who perfected it

8.) Fal hamahaa fujoorahaa wa Taqwahaa (and inspired it with Fujoor and Taqwa).

9.) He is successful who Zakkaahaa “purifies it”, and/or “causes it to grow”.

10.) And he is a failure who stunts it.

(Surah 91:1-10)

Peoplev should be thanking Adam instead of thinking it was his sin which plagues them.

Without Adams sin You would not have a Body to experience your experience, Imo.

Love Omnaka

Salaam (Peace)

The stuff about Jesus (AS) and the devil being a Prince are Christian concepts, which violate my concept of Allah completely. I do believe that everything is exactly the way Allah has intended it. The Angels asked why He was creating human beings, it just didn't make sense to them at all, Allah simply replied, "I know that which you know not." The Islamic concept of Angels is that they do not have the ability to disobey, yet are sentient beings. Allah created the Black Fire of Hell, because He wanted to, not out of need. It is His creation to do with it as He wills. Our free will, as with everything else, is limited, while His, like everything else, is not. Perhaps there is more to it than we presently perceive? Maybe there are reasons which transcend good and evil, pleasure and pain? And Allah knows best.

"Behold, the Lord said to the angels: "I will create a Khalifah , Viceroy on the earth.: They asked "Will You place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood? While we do celebrate Your praises, and glorify Your Holiness? He said: "I know that which you do not."
(Surah 2:30)

I guess Allah is not a philosopher.

God Or Allah, Loves all unconditionally, The Angels know this , and Love God, Or Father and Mother unconditionally as well, This is what makes them Angels and seperates them from the rest of God's creation, Angels also have freewill, have been down incarnate as well done bad and chosen good , just like the rest. However as is prophesised, The angels spirit learns from his freewill and rewturns to unconditional love, From the exeriences of Free will he or she , Now is experienced in all, And can see evil at a glance, while still choosing Good.

So to judge another for how he lives his belief is futile, , It may just be an angel getting his wings.

We can only judge our self.

Love Omnaka

So we're being saved from our own humanity? Who said being human was bad, that sounds like the doctrine of shame and guilt that the catholics came up with. How is thinking for oneself anything like a fall from grace?

Why do we have to beg forgiveness for having vices? Vices already have consequences attatched. If you like sex and have sex with a lot of partners, you're at risk of either pregnancy or an STD, why does Sin need to be attatched to that?

We believe that we preexisted as souls yes. We do not believe that God is a soul. We believe that God went through what we are going through and I am not talking about Christ. So we believe that God has a bone and flesh body. God loves us. But justice states that everyone must be punished for every mistake that they make. Mercy states that you can look at the person and decide if said punishment is proper. But someone still has to be punished for the sin, this is where Christ comes in.


We also believe that we not God will be judging our actions. God and Christ will just decide if we are being fair to ourselves.

I agree.

D&C 88: 15
15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.

The amalgam of body and spirit is the soul. We pre-existed as spirits, entered the physical body, and became a soul. Although in scripture often "soul" and "spirit" are used interchangably.

For LDS, God is a soul, a being of both body and spirit. It is even probable that we, our spiritual existence, literally stems directly from God's soul. We thus did in come from "Brahman", if you do not mind me referencing my view of God as Brahman.

Your entire post is fairly accurate. LDS, Mormons, do not believe in original sin as is commonly understood by mainstream Christianity.

For the LDS, this life is a proving ground for how we will behave in the absence of God. It is our time to show that we can behave responsibly and morally without the absolute knowledge of God. It is also a time when we learn to control the physical form and its accompanied tendencies (e.g. Lustful desires, Uncharitable action/Selfishness.) It isn't that creation was something less, just that we had to learn how to live in this state, a state that was new and full of opportunity for experience. For LDS, the physical world of now is a stage in the development of Man. We are divine in heritage, being children of God. We have matured from the spiritual state into the physical. If we live a life that shows that we are capable of more, when we die, we will move on to the next stage of our development and will eventual become like God. Is this not the way of existence? The child grows and develops until it is as it's parents are? Being a child does not make one evil, it makes one uneducated and in need of teaching and instruction. God has given that responsibility to Man, we must raise our children appropriately.

Darklight, that quotation from Surah 91 is just lovely--thank you for sharing it with us!

Salaam--peace be with you, my friend.

This is a fascinating (and important) discussion you have begun!

My Saviour is Jesus Christ. As a Christian, I believe that Jesus is the son of Almighty God and a young and humble Jewish girl named Mariam (anglicized as "Mary"). I believe that when His beloved son Jesus died on the Cross, He did it for our salvation. The gift of salvation is FREE--we only need to ask (humbly) for it to receive it. Of course we must also do our very best (thru the grace of God) to live a life that would be pleasing to God. So clearly, Salvation and Redemption are very much a part of my religious and spiritual path!

BUT I do recognize (or believe) as you say, Darklight, that God (Allah) is full of mercy. I do not believe that He just waits for the "chance" to fling "unbelievers" into an eternal hell. He created us ALL (regardless of religion!), we are ALL His beloved children, and I believe it is His merciful and divine will that we should all enjoy Paradise/Heaven with Him eternally. So I think He opens many avenues to salvation...not just one or two.

As to whether Salvation and Redemption are important to atheists--I think it would be better to ask them! I can't presume to speak for anyone but myself. But I think that all of us--whether we are believers or not--generally have a code of conduct to which we try to adhere. I think that an atheist can be a very kind, compassionate, loving person and surely that counts for something!! In fact, I think it counts for a lot!!

Of course, as I said, I can only speak for myself. I hope that my reply hasn't come across as too strong or too "preachy", that is absolutely not my intention.

And I do think that there are many paths to "salvation". How dare we tell God that He can only work in one narrow little way??

What you say, Darklight, is so true to me: God's ways are not our ways. His knowledge and wisdom are infinitely greater than our own.

I don't believe in redemption and salvation. You get what you deserve. So I guess, I am kind of my own savior.

wait....hold the phone there...ADAM was EVIL??? and evil cant produce good? didnt GOD make adam??? and Lucifer?? so he created evil right?? I mean didnt GOD know that Lucifer and adam would do what they did?? and yet HE GOD still chose to make them?? he knew man wouldbecome all that he has and STILL he allowed it to happen??!? then all this is GODS fault right ? and one last thing. if adam was evil once he ate the fruit and no good came come from evil then that would make JESUS evil right??...because JESUS was a son of man born from Mary...who was a desendent of THE EVIL ADAM??! AM I RIGHT??

Salaam (Peace)

Yes indeed, Allah knew what was going to happen, that is how He created it. I do not worship good or evil, any more than I worship love or hate, light or darkness. I worship Allah The Incomparable One, Creator and Lord of all things, from the heights of heaven to the depths of hell.

As quoted earlier:

"Behold, the Lord said to the angels: "I will create a Khalifah , ("Viceroy") on the earth.: They asked "Will You place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood? While we do celebrate Your praises, and glorify Your Holiness? He said: "I know that which you do not."
(Surah 2:30)

No, not at all. Only YOU can do this. I view Christ as a Savior, only in that He points THE WAY TO SALVATION, the path.....not calling on His name. To become LIKE Him. The message of grace and grace alone is one of spiritual laziness, that does not encourage neither inward nor outward change. It is foolish to think that just because you call on a savior's name that this, and this alone is all that is required; when there are atheists who live better lives then a lot of so called religious people.

The true message of the Cross is one of ACTION, not belief.

lmao I loved it.

Hmm; well I've got to admit, that is a very logical critique of Christianity, and perhaps religion in general. I respect that POV, all I can say really is touche, good point. The following is just my opinion on those claims; but whatever your beliefs are; I truly wish you the best on your own path.

1. Free will exists because it is better to allow sin to come into play; because in this manner you come to God BY CHOICE; rather than being programmed to do so. Lets look at human love; for example. Would you rather your partner be a mindless robot who merely agrees with what you say? Devoted to you through know conscious thought of their own? Sure a Stepford Wives thing may sound good at first....but really....is that the kind of love you want? So it is the same with God. Creation exists, we exists, as His expression, and desire for companionship. So why not allow us the capacity to sin, which really, is only to act in a manner that is contrary to God and the true nature of self.

2. Now, regarding the nature of sin, my views are not orthodox. Sin, to me, is just a terrible word for KARMA; the law of cause and effect. It is my belief that we do not sin against God; we are not these awful, horrid creatures that need Jesus to get us out of the mire. No, we sin against OURSELVES. Free will absolutely exists; in the terms of right action and wrong action. If we exist only in a selfish capacity, to gratify what our base conscious mind desires; then this is wrong action AGAINST YOURSELF, not God. This is karma that chains you to the cycle of birth, death, and rebirth. Because you have to want to give up self. THAT is the true meaning of the Cross; it is the surrender of the EGO to God. You have the choice to do this or not.

3. This, then leads to the devil. Again, while he does literally exists, his function is more allegorical than anything else. He represents the struggle against self, and our rather dualistic natures. To love God or to love self. To put the needs of others before your own, or to put yourself first. This is strictly an INTERNAL battle. You cite Job. Well Job represents what it is to suffer in a Godly manner. I mean, when something bad happens to you, do you blame God, or do you thank Him for the trial? You don't see Christian martyrs, Buddhist Monks, or anyone who is truly spiritual, for that matter.....bemoaning their plights to God. The devil is; in a spiritual sense, our own ego. Our desire to be happy apart from God. So again, Christ dies on the Cross, and yes, he conqueors Satan, but not because it has now given us a cheat code to get out of hell, no, to SHOW US THE WAY, THE PATH to the crucifixion of our own ego. The Buddhists say things like 'consider thought; it rises, it passes away, this is not who I am; this is not self.' This is so true. Everything that is perishable is not self. Only spirit is. To achieve that, one must die on the Cross....a conscious will to return to God, and your true nature as a co-creator with Him.

God will not throw you into a lake of fire. You will throw yourself there. Only your own karma, of life after life, can weigh you down to such a low level. But Hell is not a permanent place. It is rather, a place of cleansing. God wills that none should perish. That is literally true. In the end, we can all find our way back to Him.

All in all, your arguements make a lot of sense, but mainly if you look at Christianity from the fundamentalist perspective. There is so much more to God than just the Bible. And much of what is in it is allegory for much deeper meanings, that most people, do not get or refuse to accept.....thereby making an omnipotent being a little smaller to fit into their own philosophical viewpoints.

I do not believe that there is anything to be saved from.