Fine. Good thing historians predict our country won't stay united for more than 50 more years at best.

No we arent. If extremist christians had their way we would go back to a lifestyle that had complete control over americans like religions has had for the first two centuries we were in existance. That is done. You are free to have your religion and practice it. It does not belong in schools when such things were very clearly not allowed by the documents that outlines our government...

We are simply keeping overzealous religous folks from forcing their religious beliefs on students in our PUBLIC schools. In your church, in your home, in the mall, in the park, anywhere you want you can pray and do whatever you want, but that is never enough, so to indoctinate the youth you are trying to force false religious doctrine camoflaged as "education" such as Intelligent Design at students.

it is wrong.

I am not an American, but I am fascinated with American history. My, admittedly, hobbyist readings have underlined my current feeling of disgust in regards to the direction the USA (government, mainly) has taken over the last few decades. America was founded explicitly to escape from the religous lunacy rampant in Europe during the 17th century. It was intended to be a haven for intellect - fearless and dedicated to truth as set out in the laws of nature - not as a land of religous zelotry. The fact that the Quakers and the ledgend of the mayflower are the best remembered stories of the founding of america, is a testament to the victors rewriting history. The US is not in danger of losing it's religous centricity (Christian only, of course), but rather the opposite, it is in danger of becoming as dangerously fundemantal as Iran. This is the MO of the lunatic right - despite the fact that the numbers of christians are in fact growing, they scream ever louder that the church (christian only, of course) is under attack.
I have sources for this rather opinionated rant, if desired.

Ha ha, speak of the devil....

They have been making that prediction for 200 years. We are now the oldest republic in the history of the world.

Unfortunately this was a prophecy I do not recall where. We will become that which we have stood against our whole history. Yes America is a Christian country. But there are over 200 Christian Church's in this country and they all believe slightly different things.

What oath are you talking about? Are you talking about the pledge of alligence? The one that had no mention of god in it at all until 1954? Did you know that?

Why are you talking about the Constitution and Declaration of Independance?


Then you wont mind at all if it gets changed to "SATAN"? RA? ODIN? ZEUS? You wont mind that will you?

You wont mind if it represents more than just your little belief system right? Or do we only have religious freedom when it comes to your religion?

Unfortunately this was a prophecy I do not recall where. We will become that which we have stood against our whole history. Yes America is a Christian country. But there are over 200 Christian Church's in this country and they all believe slightly different things.

America is not a "christian country" what are you talking about? You realize that the country is based on religious freedom correct?

My goodness.

When do you want to change the word God to Satan, ra, odin, or zeus in the constitution, or the declaration of independance.

What would the harm be, right? who cares just as long as YOUR religion doesnt get screwed right? Just as long as christianity is in charge who cares right?

Personally I would love to see "In RA we trust"

The country is based on religious freedom correct. The majority of the people are Christian also correct. Thus this country is a Christian country. All this means is that we (the government) are not going to force you to go to our churchs. Which if you recall the pilgrams left england because they didn't want to be forced to be members of the Church of England, Or the lutheran church in norway at birth, I added that part from earlier posts.

What are you rabbiting on about Dani?
... and yes Fluffy, as per the "earth needs a new name" thread, I say it should be, "in Bob we trust"

We are going to become a one religion country by law. Donot know if it will be christian, muslim, or the church of the purple people eaters.

... blink... this is exactly what I was talking about. The "pilgrims" didn't leave england for this reason alone! This is the christian propaganda machine at work people.

But that should only be used on the planet Bob(new earth)

Since we are only talking about religious freedom why would any of the others be important right now.

Actually it means a lot more than you think, but I will let you ponder over the importance of the First Amendment.

Somehow I bet that if islam was being pushed in your face as is christianity you'd have one heck of a lot more support of the seperation of church and state. I love the fact that it is OK since it is your religion.

Riding a high horse, hm? Given the bloody history of your religion, Mr. Walker, and the current frenzy to stamp out secularism, science, and other religions, it would seem that we can't trust your religion either.



William J Federer? Hes a fascist conservative prick, if you don't mind me saying so. Here is his wiki page. As you can see, Federer's lost battles for a congressional seat have been supported by George Dubyah Bush's uncle: William H.T. Bush, Dennis Hastert, Dick Army and... oh man, does this get my goat, he was supported by Alan Keyes. Do you have any idea what sort of right wing nut job Keyes is? He got crushed by Obama in the 2004 election, and the guy wants U.S. Senators to appoint state legislatures, or basically repeal the 17th amendment.

Anyways, besides that tirade, danielost, did you read the other reviews "Backfired" got on that website? Here is one I liked:

This guy seems to have hit the nail on the head, no?

Oh, and heres another good one (despite sp errors)


Site

Boy these two gents seem to have hit the nail on the head.

What is your argument here, Daniel? What exactly do you want to get across? You seem to be grasping at straws, trying to find an argument that doesn't exist.
Can you please explain yourself a little more? I gather we've moved on from the 'prayer in schools help.

Oh, and the will of the majority is NOT what guides America.
If it were up to the majority, slavery would still be thriving.
It is about FREEDOM, not what the majority wants in America.

I support seperation of church and state. By the way what religion has the federal government been forcing down peoples throats.

Only in your blinkered universe are we talking about religous freedom, Dani. The topic is; the wedge strategy. That is: the strategy being applied by the right wing nut jobs who want the US to become a christian fundementalist state. In this context, the history of the foundation of YOUR country is entirely germain.

If right wing zealots had their way, YOURS! it the the entire goal of many many people...

If you really supported the seperaton of church and state, you would not want religion taught in science classes.

-

I don't support right wing nut jobs any more than I do left wing nut jobs or just plain nut jobs. 20th century nut jobs, right hitler, left stalon, castro

You posted a link to a book written by an author who supports your position, however misguided. This author is very right wing and supported by Alan Keyes, who is, by definition, a right wing nutjob.

My goal is for everyone to respect everyone. No one should say that because I believe in God I am a nut job. If you don't believe in god what difference does it make if the ten commandments are on a court yard lawn. our base laws are based on 3 or 4 of them anyways.



As for religion in science class. The answer to that is to give students all of the knowledge we have for sure. 1. life may have started spontaniously we can't prove it. 2 the majority of the world believes that life was started by design of an alien that most call God. again we can't prove this either. That is as far as life gettting started should go because that is all we know. It doesn't push christianity down anyones throat.


But to tell students that life got started in a pool of chemicals. Without the disclaimer is forcing abiogenesis down their throats.

As for prayer in school. The Christians offered a compermise and have a moment of silence in the first hour of school. Those who wanted to pray could do so and those who didn't could meditate. But we couldn't have that because praying would still be taking place.

I have no idea nor do I care if this guy is right or left wing. I don't know anything about alan keyes. But since he is a right wing nut that means that what he says can't be true right. The only ones who speak the truth are the left wing nuts.

I dont think you believe that do you?

The "Right Wing Nut jobs" Seem to be at least in very close alignment with what you post here. If you were to look at your posts and extreme positions and those of "Right Wing Nut jobs" you would see some serious parallels.

So I dont think you are being very forthright about that answer...

.
I think you call everyone who disagrees with you a right wing nut.

HAHA...oh WWF, where to start....I'm going to say firstly that if you want you child to have prayer in school, then send them to a religious/private one, public schools are funded by tax-payers, while there are a large percentage of people who are Christian, there also is a large percentage of those who aren't. People from different walks of life send their kids to public school and I'm sure most of them, aren't sending them to public school for prayer.

Secondly school violence has always been around, taking prayer out of school doesn't make much of a difference, just now in days parents get in trouble for spanking their kids, or most forms of discipline for that matter, so we have a whole generation of youth, who for the most part need a good smack upside the head, running around, able to do whatever they want without consequence, while in turn, leads to a higher percentage of bullying, Parents are pretty blind when it comes to their kids, they don't want to even think about their kids doing anything wrong, so they turn a blind eye when they get a call from the school, the whole idea of "Oh, my child wouldn't do that" is the reason why violence has increased in schools, because parents are too scared to show some back bone when it comes to discipline, or when they get that call from the school saying "Oh little Johnny was picking on a student today, can you please talk with him" I find it so funny that parents are willing to blame "Lack of prayer in school" when violence goes up and not even willing to look at their own kid, and what they may be doing to make the situation worse.

You simply do not get it do you?

Then you wont mind if we put pentograms in public buildings with the satanic bible in the courtrooms where you swear on satan before you take the stand...It is like talking to a ten year old who want to have ice cream at all costs...I have never seen anything like it...You dont want to respect everyone...that is just BS. you want the respect, and everyone else be damned.

You obviously are so self centered and cant see beyond your own religious needs to the needs or wants of others (or the needs of the first amendment) that everything is all about what you want and what you need. It is very sad and very frustrating.

It is really rather pointless to discuss the matter with you; it is pretty clear that you wont understand an actual discussion, an actual exchange. Something that people can learn from.

The only positive thing that I take out of this is that you are doing more for supporting my point than I am; the way that you hamhandidly go after your goal and offend people in the process offends not only athiests, but the people on the fence, the agnostics, and it also offends the moderate thoughtful christians too.

You push more people away from your religion than 10 of me ever could.

I will leave you to it. Have fun.


Go find me another example of me calling another person a right winf nut

Is that not willing or not able. In canada a court decided a parent who grounded his child didn't have the right to do so. In cali. you can't punish your child in public. So I ask again not willing or not able.

Actually, all the presidents since Eisenhower played large parts in ending the cold war, Reagan was just there for the end, and his aggressive approach brought the cold war to an earlier close, at the cost of thousands of innocent lives.




Possibly, but would they want someone with such a disregard for the constitution they penned?

That's right we can't have pray but the muslims can have foot baths for their prayers.

aye and see thats a different story though the child was living with the mother at the time not the father, and whomever has custody of the child at that time has the responsibility of the punishment, not the other parent, its really a twisted game really, see you may not be able to punish your child in public, but there is the time when you get home(depending on age). So with that being said I say not willing.

No the child ran away after dad grounded her.

it still doesn't matter if shes in the custody of her mother at the time of the court date, shes responsible for the discipline not him, when she goes back to visit her dad he can keep her grounded, but as soon as that time is up shes free

Oh boo hoo. That's the way the non-denominational wafer crumbles. Hey here's an idea - why not find a muslim in your home town and bathe his feet for him? You can pray for his heathen soul at the same time! Kill two birds with one stone! Or just stone him to death.
Just ask yourself; what would Jaysus do?

Just to cover a few of the things mentioned in this thread:

#1: The "Separation of Church & State" means that the U.S. government should not endorse any religion.By allowing displays such as the Ten Commandments or a Nativity scene on government (secular & public) property would be akin to endorsing a religion.Therefore,any and all such displays should never be allowed on properties owned or operated by the government.

#2: The words "under God" were a recent addition to the Pledge of Allegiance,being placed there during the "Communist Scare" of the 1950's.It does not belong there because of two main facts.First,it makes it appear as though the U.S. government is endorsing a religion (which goes against the Separation of Church & State),and secondly...because not everyone in the U.S. belongs to the Christian religion.

#3: Those who are attempting to push the "Intelligent Design" into schools are nothing more than Funda-"Mental"-ist nut-jobs who are attempting to get a "foot in the door" (so to speak) so that they can begin the attempt to turn the U.S. into a Theocracy that will then be run by those same extremist nut-jobs.If this ever happened,this country would be turned upside down,for there would be a lack of religious tolerance,a witch-hunt craze like no other in history (for they would not only hunt down and attempt to destroy or convert any who belong to different religions...but also any who do not fit "their" idea of a normal person...such as those who listen to Rock music,males with long hair,those they deem "immoral" (such as homosexuals),and any who question their ideas,methods and "morals").

#4: The lack of discipline in schools can mainly be attributed to two things...the economy and bad parenting (or a lack of parenting).With much of the U.S. population looking to lead "the good life" by chasing the ever elusive "Almighty Dollar",families have needed a "two person income".This means that many kids are left at home by themselves much of the time since both parents are out working.Too,when the parents are home,they sometimes bring their work home with them...and do not have the time to spend with their children,which sometimes forces the children to fend for themselves.There are also some who have children who really shouldn't,and others who just do not know how to raise a child.

#5: The textbooks in many school systems are very outdated (some were written back in the 1940's/50's and are still being used today).This is not good for the children,since they are being taught many things which are based on outdated information.Unfortunately most school systems are not well-funded enough to purchase updated materials for their students.

#6: Many School Boards are run by parents who have children attending school somewhere in the district.These parents are elected to the Boards by other parents in the district.

#7: Just because someone claims to be of a specific religion during a poll or census does not mean that they actually practice (or really consider themselves to belong to) that religion.Too,polls do not always provide accurate statistics...even when it is done by government officials.

#8: Prayer does not belong in school.To allow it would also be akin to the U.S. government endorsing a religion (which again,goes against the Separation of Church & State).If a "Moment of Silence" is allowed,consider it a "compromise"...for it allows everyone to do as they wish during this time,whether it be pray to God,Allah,Ra,Zeus,Odin...etc.,or do nothing at all.This is a compromise made to keep everyone happy,which is the better path for the government to take,since it does not favor any specific religion.Remember...the government is supposed to work for all the people...not just those who belong to a specific religion,social class or status.

I have thought about this a little bit. We have 50 pentograms on our flag. Our military command headquarters is a pentogram.

I thought we didn't want any religion in public school.

.


3 sorry for 150 years they had their foot in the door. The us is not nor has it ever been a Theocracy.

8 then we need to get rid of the muslim foot baths which are there so the muslims can prayer during the day. The anti-prayer group said no because it was still prayer.

Little bit indeed...you missed the point entirely.

What would you say if on the dollar bill it said "In Zeus we trust" instead of "in God we trust"?

In America of all places...ironic isn't it that we must still fight for freedom of religion and equality?

School is for learning, church is for faith.

Who is being oppressed, if you think American Christians are being oppressed then you are deluded.

No, you can not have a religious explanation used in science. That is ridiculous. Science is not about what most people believe in, it is about what the evidence shows. You are talking nonsense he Daniel. Abiogensis has supporting evidence in the fact that we know that biological molecules form naturally, is there is any evidence of a creator? No, teaching it as an alternative is religious indoctrination. How about teaching Ra masturbated the universe into existence? How about saying I did it.
Religion has churches, it does not belong in school, if you want to pray, you can do it before you get to school.
The religious right in America have such horrific hypocrisy over the constitution. Defend the 2nd amendment to the death but a constant ignorance of the 1st.

In what sense do you apply "your religion?" If you mean any religion generically, and including all religions, then your statement makes some sense.

However im not sure if you know anything at all about my religion (my position is that i dont have any religious beliefs.)
In fact i dont "believe" in anything per se.
I follow "god" personally, and; living in a society almost 100% either christian or lliving under laws and other social constructs based on a christian model, I find many of the christian values and social mores very productive and constructive elements of society)

However, Id be just as happy living as a buddhist or muslim or druid, as long as i could live happily with god within that framework. It is my personal connection with god which sustains me, not any formal construct of religion at all.

Actually, church and destroy, my intention was to just apply a small voice of reason. It is your rather strident opinions which more resemble those emanating from one riding a high horse.
Your reaction is rather indicative of the emotional attachment you obviously hold for your pov.
(Nothing wrong with strongly held beliefs of course)

Of course religious wars, along with all others, would have been a great deal less bloody without the fervent application of scientific knowledge and technology to weapons and their most efficient application since the beginning of time. Religion rarely influences the technological development of weaponry, although the religious are often just as keen to employ them as the non religious (with of course many notable and important exceptions)

Perhaps not, but in a democracy they will eventually get what they want.Is this what really drives the fears of non christian americans? I cant see how you can have it both ways. In a democracy the majority will eventually get what they want, and the best aa minority can expect is protections for their rights built into the framework of governance.
There are few other solutions available. One is war as in the american civil war where certain principles are felt to override the "democratic" rights of a populace to decide their own destiny.

I'm only a student of american history, with no moral or emotional atachment, but it is very arguable that the founding fathers wanted to ensure fredom OF all forms of religios expression (unlike europe where in most places only the state sanctioned version was allowed and wars raged for centuries between religions across national boundaries and within nations like england. )

The founding fathers never intended to institute freedom FROM religion. The reason state was separated from religion was not because anything was seen as wrong with religion, but so that the american state could never side with a particular religion. There was also some influence from the french revolution and a reaction against the perceived excesses of state religions, but even the secular/humanist americans among those who founded the nation, never intended it to be a secular state without recognition of god. The words already quoted from your constitution clearly show that.

So, while no religion should be granted special or paramount status in american instiitutions, the answer is not to ban all religious expressions but to embrace all of them, along with the right to absolute non belief. This is of course much harder to implement in practice, but it is the correct thing for any multicultural/ multi religious society to do.

It would infuriate many fundamentalist christians, but at the same time provide a multi faceted counter balance to their influence. In giving innate rights to all expressions of belief, you weaken the unilateral power of any one of them. This is precisely the objective the founding fathers were aiming for. By taking all religion out of the state institutions you merely strengthen the hand of christian fundamentalists.

I have to agree with everything but the last sentance. not sure about that.

That is my whole point. Abiogenesis is backed by the same amount of evidence as God is, none. one more time we have decided to accomidate the muslims with their prayers in school.

... I really don't mean this to be inflamitory, but are you on drugs? I mean, are you on something that prevents you from reading, or thinking, or comprehending? I can't understand your answers. You are not making any sense. You are not responding to what people have written. What have you got against footbaths?