If you wish to meditate you can do it before school.

You mean i have to have math junk floating around in my head in english class. Because you are uncomfortable with the idea.

Not in schools, maybe college though.

Now you're changing the category. This has nothing to do with teaching about God.

This is a debate forum about God and religion. You should learn to stay on topic and not introduce categories that have nothing to do with what is being debated.

If you believe in ghosts, aliens, and psychic powers, there are other forums for discussions on these.

They were teaching me about psychic powers studies when I was in school. They also talked about the new mexico crash.l

No it is not. But what ever makes you happy.
Maybe a creationist who claims to be scientist should perhaps look up irony here.


Personal testimony is subjective and is influenced by opinion before hand. It is not proof of anything.

no your right it isn't pseudo-science it isn't science what so ever. Except that it doesn't mention God.

Yes it is Daniel, sorry but you can believe what you want but you simply wrong here.

Apparently all Daniel and WWF can do is simply say the subject isn't science, because they can't provide any evidence that says abiogenesis isn't plausible, aside from the fact that every research university has biologists that have been exploring the issue.

Biologists are there to do science, it doesn't matter if it contradicts your religion or not.

Theres a reason Christian biologists work on the issue of abiogensis. Its because its science and not a religious concept. For some reason you people skip around this problem and don't even address it. The same goes for evolution. The leader of the human genome project is a Christian but accepts evolution because he is not clouded by his religious beliefs. You people seem to ignore this as well and equate those who believe in evolution and abiogenesis with those who are against religion and are all atheists.

So prove abiogenesis if you can. Give 100% concrete evidence for it.

I've already provided evidence that it isn't plausible. It's called "biogenesis". Life begets life. Inorganic matter cannot produce life. This is scientific law.

Just because people research it does not mean it explains origins. It's pseudo-science.

I don't need to. It merely has to be plausible and the natural formation of biological molecules does occur.
I don't need to prove it 100% as a concept to show it as a science.
But you made the claim that it is not possible feel free to prove that, if not you have no base for your argument except it contradicts your religion.

So we shouldn't teach either abiogenesis or intelligent design in school until they are proven is your stance then right?

This thread has quite a few pages, so I may have missed this if it had been answered.

But, why do you want prayer back in school, even though there is Moment of Silence?

If it was science it would have something to back it up.

Wow, where have you been the last 10 years?

Have you even at least tried to research abiogenesis? It appears that you haven't making such outlandish statements such as this.

Well we can just accept the "null hypothesis" concerning abiogenesis.

No such thing as abiogenesis.

There is a huge difference between organic molecules and life. I gave you three lengths where they talk about it in depth. true one was a religous length but the others werent

No there is supporting evidence, get over it.

Ummmm, last time I started a thread on this it went about 500 posts with nothing showing proof of abiogenesis.

That is why it is evidence for and not proof off.

Where have you been for the last 30 minutes. I just did the research and there were no websites that said abiogenesis the proof. Not even wiki made that claim.

but those can be found on jupiter as well and in deep space. Where is the life in these places.

Not only was there proof, but you outright reject proof because it doesn't agree with your belief system. Want proof? Go to Notre Dame.

Its not a question about whether Abiogenesis happened. Its a question of how it happened.

Go to college and you'll find it.

Get a real education instead of surfing on the internet looking at bogus sites. I am not a fan of most popular science literature or creation literature that claims to be scientific.

No there is no "supporting evidence" for it.

Please show this "supporting evidence" of abiogenesis that is:

1. Observable
2. Measureable
3. Can be validated
4. Reliable
5. Repeatable

I have a real education and a degree in the sciences from a top school and know abiogenesis is bogus.

Please show us how "abiogenesis" can be repeated in a lab them. I'll be waiting for the step by step process.

It doesn't matter how anyone responds to your inquiries, your going to respond the same way you always do.

I am certainly not going to hold your hand and spoon feed you information.

What again? The for you to just disagree because AIG said so? Been here before, you will refuse it no matter what. You even argued against it on using another base for abiogenesis. Sorry but it is not worth the effort. What ever makes you happy you believe it.

So basically you can't provide what you claim exists.

I can, but I'll let someone else do that for you, because you obviously don't have the capability to do it yourself.

How silly of me to expect for you to present things that uphold the standards of scientific research methods.



Uh huh, okay.

That has nothing to do with Matt's post. You provide nothing of substance to this forum and do nothing but flamebait threads in hopes of discrediting science, because all you can do is restate what is said on creation websites.

Wrong. You're claiming something is science, yet when asked to demonstrate it using scientific standards you can't. That's not flamebait, that's debate. If you can't respond, that's not my fault.

If you can prove abiogenesis as credible science, then by all means do it.

What do you want besides the fact that it follows the scientific method and is studied by scientists from various different countries and various religions?

That is not pseudo science. Scientists don't 'do' pseudo science. We don't get paid to sit around and research nothing. We don't get grant money to do research on things that at least don't look promising to those that provide it.

I already gave 5 key points of true science in terms of research methods. Show how abiogenesis and the study of such adheres to those 5 points and at the same time is proven as a scientific truth.

Hmm, I may have simply been looked over in this, but I'll ask again in hopes that it is seen.



This thread has quite a few pages, so I may have missed this if it had been answered.

But, why do you want prayer back in school, even though there is Moment of Silence?

- Edit: WWF more specifically

I'll humor your so called 'Five Points'.

Two Journal Research Articles following and researching principles in abiogenesis, one done at the School of Chemical Sciences and Pharmacy in Norwich and the other in Department of Genetics at Harvard

Chen IA, Roberts RW, Szostak JW. 2004. The emergence of competition between model protocells. Science 305:1474-1476.
Rogerson ML, Robinson BH, Bucak S, Walde P. Kinetic studies of the interaction of fatty acids with phosphatidylcholine vesicles (liposomes). Colloids Surf B Biointerfaces. 2006 Mar 1;48(1):24-34.

1. Observable- Osmotic pressures and effects on Vesicle Membranes were observed.
2. Measureable- RNA Replication/Cell Growth measured/ Mean Vesicle size
3. Can be validated-All observable biological phenomena occurred and followed criterion based on knowledge and results of pervious experimental research (ie. Osmotic pressure and replication)
4. Reliable- Repeated experiments by independent researchers used to establish the results obtained were reliable and correct
5. Repeatable-Repeated by independent researchers once article is published

It isn't about prayer. It is about being able to worship as one wishes. Doesn't matter if that one is a person, a group, a city, or a state. Those ten commandments werent' on federal court hoiuse lawns they were on city court houses.

To try and control things again. They have wanted to control the entire country for the longest time, and allowing others to have religious freedom is bad for their business, so they would rather force themselves on others in as complete and total way as possible; including telling your children what, and when to pray. Start with the young. They want to abolish true science and replace it with religious mumbo jumbo. They want to control your life and everyones life like they could when hanging a witch was in vogue and their word was law, and no one would dare speak out against religious knowitalls...it is all about power and money. The very first post links to an article on the matter which lists the goals...they are scary.

I don't understand.


You owe all the modern conveniences that you take for granted to science. How do you reconcile this hypocrisy ?

How is it you manage to reject evolution, while at the same time you accept other "unproven" theories ?

Is it because they do not directly contradict the bible ? Or is it because those other theories provide the ability for you to live your modern, everyday lives ?

Technically, all we have in life are theories. When evidence is reasonably supportive, and enough experts agree, a society deems a theory as basically factual. The majority of times this happens, life improves as a result, because knowledge exposes truth and removes fear & fallacies.

Do you realize that every time religion has thrown up roadblocks to science, all it has done is stifle our progress ?

If the church had its way> modern medicine would still rely on prayers and bloodletting to cure disease people !

People would have never sailed across the oceans, or developed flight, cure disease nor have the knowledge of how physics, chemistry and biology work.

Paid for by public funds.

Osmotic pressure is the hydrostatic pressure produced by a solution in a space divided by a semipermeable membrane due to a differential in the concentrations of solute. Osmoregulation is the homeostasis mechanism of an organism to reach balance in osmotic pressure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmotic_pressure

being able to eat proves abiogenesis.


RNA cannot reproduce out side a living cell.


when is this so called article going to be printed.

You didn't read the articles, so you therefore don't know what was stated in them regarding osmotic pressures.

They are already available to you

And no need to link wikipedia entries to me. I'm a biologist, I know what osomotic pressure is.

then it should be the local laws that determine if they stay or not not federal

well seems as if this thread is running around in circles...ok so do you think its fair for say a Pagan teacher or Muslim one to have to lead a Christian prayer? or for a
Jewish student to have to follow along? oh wait in your world everyone would be Christian! LOL yea i'm sure thats going to happen in the next hundred years!

This article does not show that abiogenesis took place. It shows that cellular growth took place from fatty acids.

Chen IA, Roberts RW, Szostak JW. 2004. The emergence of competition between model protocells. Science 305:1474-1476.

"Here we report that montmorillonite accelerates the spontaneous conversion of fatty acid micelles into vesicles. Clay particles often become encapsulated in these vesicles, thus providing a pathway for the prebiotic encapsulation of catalytically active surfaces within membrane vesicles. In addition, RNA adsorbed to clay can be encapsulated within vesicles. Once formed, such vesicles can grow by incorporating fatty acid supplied as micelles and can divide without dilution of their contents by extrusion through small pores. These processes mediate vesicle replication through cycles of growth and division."

Osmotic pressure is the hydrostatic pressure produced by a solution in a space divided by a semipermeable membrane due to a differential in the concentrations of solute. Osmoregulation is the homeostasis mechanism of an organism to reach balance in osmotic pressure.

Osmotic potential is the opposite of water potential with the former meaning the degree to which a solvent (usually water) would want to stay in a liquid.

Hypertonicity is a solution that causes cells to shrink. It may or may not have a higher osmotic pressure than the cell interior since the rate of water entry will depend upon the permeability of the cell membrane.
Hypotonicity is a solution that causes cells to swell. It may or may not have a lower osmotic pressure than the cell interior.since the rate of water entry will depend upon the permeability of the cell membrane.
Isotonic is a solution that produces no change in cell volume.
When a biological cell is in a hypotonic environment, the cell interior accumulates water, water flows across the cell membrane into the cell, causing it to expand. In plant cells, the cell wall restricts the expansion, resulting in pressure on the cell wall from within called turgor pressure. The osmotic pressure π of a dilute solution can be calculated using the formula

,
where

i is the van 't Hoff factor
M is the molarity
R is the gas constant, where R = 0.08206 L · atm · mol-1 · K-1
T is the thermodynamic temperature (formerly called absolute temperature)
Note the similarity of the above formula to the ideal gas law and also that osmotic pressure is not dependent on particle charge. This equation was derived by van 't Hoff.


[edit] Applications
Osmotic pressure is the basis of reverse osmosis, a process commonly used to purify water. The water to be purified is placed in a chamber and put under an amount of pressure greater than the osmotic pressure exerted by the water and the solutes dissolved in it. Part of the chamber opens to a differentially permeable membrane that lets water molecules through, but not the solute particles. The osmotic pressure of ocean water is about 27 atm. Reverse osmosis desalinators use pressures around 70 atm to produce fresh water from ocean salt water.

Osmotic pressure is necessary for many plant functions. It is the resulting turgor pressure on the cell wall that allows herbaceous plants to stand upright, and how plants regulate the aperture of their stomata. In animal cells which lack a cell wall however, excessive osmotic pressure can result in cytolysis.

Cell wall
Cytolysis
Gibbs-Donnan effect
Osmosis
Pfeffer cell
Plasmolysis
Turgor pressure
For the calculation of molecular weight by using colligative properties, osmotic pressure is the most preferred property.


[edit] Potential osmotic pressure
Potential osmotic pressure is the maximum osmotic pressure that could develop in a solution if it were separated from distilled water by a selectively permeable membrane. It is the number of solute particles in a unit volume of the solution that directly determines its potential osmotic pressure. If one waits for equilibrium, osmotic pressure reaches potential osmotic pressure.

Of course it doesn't. It shows the mechanisms are work and current research revolved around abiogenesis, and I, in effect, just proved my point showing you that the study of abiogenesis is scientific, and at the same time showed that you don't know what the hell your talking about.

And Daniel I have no idea what your trying to do copy and pasting stuff about osmotic pressure.

trying to help you with your proof. since you can't find any. by the way you can study anything useing scientific process. Doesn't make what you are studing science.