Eventually religious people who arnt truly spiritual are gonna have to face up to the facts of evolution just as the early church had to consign the fact that the earth is round.
The essence of all the great major religions cant be contradicted by scientific learning and knowledge. The essence of religion is to return good for evil and find love and truth in the spirit within. Science cannot reject what it cannot observe, and if we are truly honest with ourselves we will find that there are things intuition can feel which science cannot observe which have causes in things that arnt physical.
Love science for what it is, a grand tool which can tell us alot about the world around us. Love love all the more because without it there is no safeguard to stop science being used for immoral purposes.
My claim is that consciousness is as metaphysical as it gets, and is transmitted via the brain/body and not produced from it. Consciousness in my view is the same as Spirit and pervades all things including the physical processes science is learning more and more about every day.
Overly indoctrinated people ought to use their brains philosophically more.
Full Version: The Wedge Strategy
I have no problem with evolution. I do have a problem with spontaneous life.
QUOTE (danielost @ Jun 30 2008, 02:06 PM) 
I agree but we have left it up to the school boards and lawyers about prayer.
Yes, when we shouldn't have. It shouldn't be an issue in question.
QUOTE (~Kaizen CJM~ @ Jun 30 2008, 10:38 AM)
This is true...Its saddening. And what's worse is that those who do teach themselves and do think for themselves are generally persecuted with disciplinary action. Asking questions against the authority or even the validity of whats being taught is a big no no. Lol.
OMG this is so true Kaizen, my Middle son (14 years old ) has had this happen and so have several of my friends, actaully asked to leave the class and told they are setting a bad example for asking questions...I have either called or requested meetings as the voice on behalf of my son... recently we had a great issue at the YMCA with this also i again took my youngest sons concerns to the top and the changes that i suggested were implemented.... the problem is too few really understand kids or want to take the time to guide a child in a way that is effective and good for them........ At 14 on a kid pushes against authority to test out his /her ideas this is how they cultivate a thinking mind and understnad slef generated limitations.... these institutions thwart this and for the most part have no idea.... i am always stunned at speaking with teachers who are blank when it comes to kids.....it requires an on going willingness to learn and grow oneself... few are too caught up in either ors therefore they not oly limit themsleves but the children they are guiding.....How in the heck does a child ever think if he is not allowed to discuss or question authority, esepcially the authority he calls teacher or parent..oy vey.....????
daniel, a child makes bad decisons becasue he has been taught too ... the greatest disservice we do to kids is not allow them to question, or think for themselves or expose them to other ideas if they can't question their guides they will not question their peers when this is what you need them to do the most nor will they come to an adult for fear of disapproval when they need them the most .. this is what I see.... .. many kids are encouraged to cow tow to authority for approval, most kids are not valued for having a voice....... this is the reality of most kids lives.......thats the issue my friend and religion feeds into this s especailly on the things that one should have a voice in such as their sexuality the way they decide to be spritual their curiousity and wonder is robbed from them for favor of obeidiance.......IMO...
QUOTE (WalkingWithFire @ Jun 30 2008, 08:49 PM)
Yes, when we shouldn't have. It shouldn't be an issue in question.
That would have been unconstitutional though. That is forcing YOUR religion of others. Freedom of religion, not freedom for you religion not everyone else's.
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Jun 30 2008, 04:11 PM)
That would have been unconstitutional though. That is forcing YOUR religion of others. Freedom of religion, not freedom for you religion not everyone else's.
Back when I was a kid, we had a woman come into the classroom and do a Bible study and prayer. We didn't have police officers in the hallways. Now it's just the opposite in schools. No Bible studies/prayer and police officers in the schools.
QUOTE (WalkingWithFire @ Jun 30 2008, 01:15 PM)
Back when I was a kid, we had a woman come into the classroom and do a Bible study and prayer. We didn't have police officers in the hallways. Now it's just the opposite in schools. No Bible studies/prayer and police officers in the schools.
That has nothing to do with the stopping of religious influence in school. It has to do with bad parenting and terrible education systems. Parents don't know how to parent and school-based "education" isn't actually educating anyone. It's just indoctrination.
QUOTE (WalkingWithFire @ Jun 30 2008, 09:15 PM)
Back when I was a kid, we had a woman come into the classroom and do a Bible study and prayer. We didn't have police officers in the hallways. Now it's just the opposite in schools. No Bible studies/prayer and police officers in the schools.
So other countries don't have prayer and have far higher levels of religious indifference and they don't have those problems. The 2 are not associated.
OK, everybody.
If we had left slavery up to the 'students and parents', slavery would exist in the US today.
Apparently you don't either, but unfortunately your misunderstanding has the nasty side effect of voting Republican.
DATA, SIR.
How about showing us a nice little graph?
OK EVERYBODY, LISTEN UP.
Lets look at the facts.
A. Almost no other countries in the Western World have prayer in schools.
B. Japan, scoring in the top 5 nations in education, isn't even Christian.
C. This comic has a deep and serious meaning.
This should clear everything up.
So, WWF, does Atheism ruin schools? Does it ruin nations?
The answer is no. A resounding no.
The question is, what IS ruining the schools of America?
The big problem is the anti-intellectualism movement, often supported by extremely religious. The ideas that intellectuals are snobs, and are hated. This is a major problem in American schools. Just like the Religious arguments stem from a hate of "stuck up too-smart know-it-all scientists", the school problem stems from a hate of "stuck up too-smart know-it-all scientists".
Thus, we can pretty clearly conclude that the Religious war on Science is all too similar to the problem in schools today.
And, here's some help from this nice website here:
http://ffrf.org/nontracts/schoolprayer.php
A couple quick quotes, no? Don't want to copy and pasta too much, but this stuff is good.
Anyway, that was good.
Now for:
Religion = 'the dog ate it'. Except Religion is an excuse that kills, and has killed more people then any other single cause in history.
Listen: You're thinking illogically.
If science has given NO EVIDENCE for Creationism or Intelligent Design(true statement), then they are JUST as likely as the Flying Spaghetti Monster creating the world yesterday.
JUST AS LIKELY.
UNLIKE ID, ABIOGENESIS IS STILL SCIENCE. Why? Unlike the ID 'God did it!', most time spent on abiogenesis is working out HOW it happened. IT involves chemicals, experiments, questions, hypothesis, and the scientific method, so it is science.
Determining whether the first few cells were started by a deity or abiogenesis IS NOT SCIENCE- that is speculation, because it(for now), is truly impossible to tell.
Summary:
Evolution- The Evolution of Living things, is science. The Fact of Evolution is the fact that all things evolve on Earth.
The Theory is the nit-pickings on HOW they have evolved over the years.
The Theory is based on sound evidence, observation, DNA evidence, experimentation, fossil evidence, and etc.
The theory MOST LIKELY HAS a few holes: Scientists do not pretend that we know exactly how every single little thing evolved.
These holes are currently not, and will probably never be even a small problem to the entire theory.
The Big Bang Theory- The theory that the universe exploded in an insanely fast moment from a singularity.
This is Science, as the theory is based on observation, math, and evidence that we see today.
Right now, what was BEFORE the big bang is somewhat speculatation: Right now, there is only a little evidence that points to specific hypothesises.
What was before the big bang has little to do with the big bang theory.
The Scientific Age of the Earth/Universe- THIS is Science. We have made conclusions based on the large amounts of evidence we have that points towards a VERY old earth and universe. The amount of evidence for such is astonishing.
Intelligent Design- THIS is basically not science. The only evidence(which, currently, does not exist) that could support Intelligent Design would be impossibly huge odds of Evolution/Abiogenesis. Most of ID basically claims that 'random events' are in fact controlled by god, which is not testable.
Creationism- Largely not science. Why? Because Creationists can continually make excuses like 'God made it that way' or 'God is trying to trick you'. Instead of reaching a conclusion based on evidence, Creationists twist the evidence to their pre-made conclusion.
The 'Science' part of Creationism is the arguments for a Young Earth(All of which have been debunked, of course), and the "evidence" against Evolution. It might not be very good evidence(it's not very good at all!), but they still used scientific observation, even if the conclusions were obscured purposefully/by mistake.
Hope that clears stuff up.
cheers,
SQLserver
QUOTE
It should be up to the students and parents not the state or the school board.
If we had left slavery up to the 'students and parents', slavery would exist in the US today.
QUOTE
Pressured?
Apparently you don't understand how government works.
Apparently you don't understand how government works.
Apparently you don't either, but unfortunately your misunderstanding has the nasty side effect of voting Republican.
QUOTE
If you hadn't noticed, schools got much worse with violence and such when prayer was taken out.
DATA, SIR.
How about showing us a nice little graph?
QUOTE
We have been removing these so called indoctrination from the schools since the 60's. How many kids are using drugs, how are the test scores. I take it back we are not removing indoctrination from school. We are replacing church with government.
OK EVERYBODY, LISTEN UP.
Lets look at the facts.
A. Almost no other countries in the Western World have prayer in schools.
B. Japan, scoring in the top 5 nations in education, isn't even Christian.
C. This comic has a deep and serious meaning.
This should clear everything up.
So, WWF, does Atheism ruin schools? Does it ruin nations?
The answer is no. A resounding no.
The question is, what IS ruining the schools of America?
The big problem is the anti-intellectualism movement, often supported by extremely religious. The ideas that intellectuals are snobs, and are hated. This is a major problem in American schools. Just like the Religious arguments stem from a hate of "stuck up too-smart know-it-all scientists", the school problem stems from a hate of "stuck up too-smart know-it-all scientists".
Thus, we can pretty clearly conclude that the Religious war on Science is all too similar to the problem in schools today.
And, here's some help from this nice website here:
http://ffrf.org/nontracts/schoolprayer.php
A couple quick quotes, no? Don't want to copy and pasta too much, but this stuff is good.
QUOTE
Why Should Schools Be Neutral?
Our public schools are for all children, whether Catholic, Baptist, Quaker, atheist, Buddhist, Jewish, agnostic. The schools are supported by all taxpayers, and therefore should be free of religious observances and coercion. It is the sacred duty of parents and churches to instill religious beliefs, free from government dictation. Institutionalizing prayers in public schools usurps the rights of parents.
School prayer proponents mistake government neutrality toward religion as hostility. The record shows that religious beliefs have flourished in this country not in spite of but because of the constitutional separation of church and state.
Our public schools are for all children, whether Catholic, Baptist, Quaker, atheist, Buddhist, Jewish, agnostic. The schools are supported by all taxpayers, and therefore should be free of religious observances and coercion. It is the sacred duty of parents and churches to instill religious beliefs, free from government dictation. Institutionalizing prayers in public schools usurps the rights of parents.
School prayer proponents mistake government neutrality toward religion as hostility. The record shows that religious beliefs have flourished in this country not in spite of but because of the constitutional separation of church and state.
QUOTE
What Happens When Worship Enters Public Schools?
When religion has invaded our public school system, it has singled out the lone Jewish student, the class Unitarian or agnostic, the children in the minority. Families who protest state/ church violations in our public schools invariably experience persecution. It was commonplace prior to the court decision against school prayer to put non-religious or nonorthodox children in places of detention during bible-reading or prayer recitation. The children of Supreme Court plaintiffs against religion in schools, such as Vashti McCollum, Ed Schempp and Ishmael Jaffree, were beaten up on the way to and from school, their families subjected to community harassment and death threats for speaking out in defense of a constitutional principle. We know from history how harmful and destructive religion is in our public schools. In those school districts that do not abide by the law, school children continue to be persecuted today.
When religion has invaded our public school system, it has singled out the lone Jewish student, the class Unitarian or agnostic, the children in the minority. Families who protest state/ church violations in our public schools invariably experience persecution. It was commonplace prior to the court decision against school prayer to put non-religious or nonorthodox children in places of detention during bible-reading or prayer recitation. The children of Supreme Court plaintiffs against religion in schools, such as Vashti McCollum, Ed Schempp and Ishmael Jaffree, were beaten up on the way to and from school, their families subjected to community harassment and death threats for speaking out in defense of a constitutional principle. We know from history how harmful and destructive religion is in our public schools. In those school districts that do not abide by the law, school children continue to be persecuted today.
QUOTE
Can't Students Pray in Public Schools Now?
Individual, silent, personal prayer never has and never could be outlawed in public schools. The courts have declared government-fostered prayers unconstitutional - those led, required, sanctioned, scheduled or suggested by officials.
It is dishonest to call any prayer "voluntary" that is encouraged or required by a public official or legislature. By definition, if the government suggests that students pray, whether by penning the prayer, asking them to vote whether to pray or setting aside time to pray, it is endorsing and promoting that prayer. It is coercive for schools to schedule worship as an official part of the school day, school sports or activities, or to use prayer to formalize graduation ceremonies. Such prayers are more "mandatory" than "voluntary."
Individual, silent, personal prayer never has and never could be outlawed in public schools. The courts have declared government-fostered prayers unconstitutional - those led, required, sanctioned, scheduled or suggested by officials.
It is dishonest to call any prayer "voluntary" that is encouraged or required by a public official or legislature. By definition, if the government suggests that students pray, whether by penning the prayer, asking them to vote whether to pray or setting aside time to pray, it is endorsing and promoting that prayer. It is coercive for schools to schedule worship as an official part of the school day, school sports or activities, or to use prayer to formalize graduation ceremonies. Such prayers are more "mandatory" than "voluntary."
QUOTE
What's Wrong With A "Voluntary" Prayer Amendment?
Proponents of so-called "voluntary" school prayer amendment (such as the one proposed in 1995) are admitting that our secular Constitution prohibits organized prayers in public schools. Otherwise, why would an amendment to our U.S. Constitution be required? The nation must ask whether politically-motivated Newt Gingrich & Co. are wiser than James Madison, principal author of the Constitution, and the other founders who engineered the world's oldest and most successful constitution!
The radical school prayer amendment would negate the First Amendment's guarantee against government establishment of religion. Most distressing, it would be at the expense of the civil rights of children, America's most vulnerable class. It would attack the heart of the Bill of Rights, which safeguards the rights of the individual from the tyranny of the majority.
Proponents of so-called "voluntary" school prayer amendment (such as the one proposed in 1995) are admitting that our secular Constitution prohibits organized prayers in public schools. Otherwise, why would an amendment to our U.S. Constitution be required? The nation must ask whether politically-motivated Newt Gingrich & Co. are wiser than James Madison, principal author of the Constitution, and the other founders who engineered the world's oldest and most successful constitution!
The radical school prayer amendment would negate the First Amendment's guarantee against government establishment of religion. Most distressing, it would be at the expense of the civil rights of children, America's most vulnerable class. It would attack the heart of the Bill of Rights, which safeguards the rights of the individual from the tyranny of the majority.
QUOTE
What Would the Prayer Amendment Permit?
The text of the proposed federal amendment (as of January, 1995) reads:
"Nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to prohibit individual or group prayer in public schools or other public institutions. No person shall be required by the United States or by any State to participate in prayer. Neither the United States or any State shall compose the words of any prayer to be said in public schools."
Since the right to "individual prayer" already exists, the real motive is to instill "group prayer."
No wording in this amendment would prevent the government from selecting the prayer, or the particular version of the bible it should be taken from. Nothing restricts prayers to "nondenominational" or "nonsectarian" (not that such a restriction would make it acceptable). Nothing would prevent a school from selecting the Lord's Prayer or other prayers to Jesus, and blasting it over the intercom. For that matter, nothing would prevent the school from sponsoring prayers to Allah or Zoroaster. Nothing would prevent principals, teachers or clergy from leading the students. Nothing would prevent nonparticipating students from being singled out. The proposal also seeks to institutionalize group prayer in other public settings, presumably public-supported senior centers, courthouses, etc.
School prayer supporters envision organized, vocal, group recitations of prayer, daily classroom displays of belief in a deity or religion, dictated by the majority. Those in the minority would be compelled to conform to a religion or ritual in which they disbelieve, to suffer the humiliation and imposition of submitting to a daily religious exercise against their will, or be singled out by orthodox classmates and teachers as "heretics" or "sinners" for not participating.
The text of the proposed federal amendment (as of January, 1995) reads:
"Nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to prohibit individual or group prayer in public schools or other public institutions. No person shall be required by the United States or by any State to participate in prayer. Neither the United States or any State shall compose the words of any prayer to be said in public schools."
Since the right to "individual prayer" already exists, the real motive is to instill "group prayer."
No wording in this amendment would prevent the government from selecting the prayer, or the particular version of the bible it should be taken from. Nothing restricts prayers to "nondenominational" or "nonsectarian" (not that such a restriction would make it acceptable). Nothing would prevent a school from selecting the Lord's Prayer or other prayers to Jesus, and blasting it over the intercom. For that matter, nothing would prevent the school from sponsoring prayers to Allah or Zoroaster. Nothing would prevent principals, teachers or clergy from leading the students. Nothing would prevent nonparticipating students from being singled out. The proposal also seeks to institutionalize group prayer in other public settings, presumably public-supported senior centers, courthouses, etc.
School prayer supporters envision organized, vocal, group recitations of prayer, daily classroom displays of belief in a deity or religion, dictated by the majority. Those in the minority would be compelled to conform to a religion or ritual in which they disbelieve, to suffer the humiliation and imposition of submitting to a daily religious exercise against their will, or be singled out by orthodox classmates and teachers as "heretics" or "sinners" for not participating.
QUOTE
Haven't Public Schools Always Had Prayer?
At the time the U.S. Supreme Court issued its 1962 and 1963 decrees against school-sponsored prayers and bible-reading, it is estimated religious observances were unknown in about half of the nation's public schools.
Horace Mann, the father of our public school system, championed the elimination of sectarianism from American schools, largely accomplished by the 1840's. Bible reading, prayers or hymns in public schools were absent from most public schools by the end of the 19th century, after Catholic or minority-religion immigrants objected to Protestant bias in public schools.
Presidents Ulysses S. Grant and Theodore Roosevelt spoke up for what Roosevelt called "absolutely nonsectarian public schools." Roosevelt added that it is "not our business to have the Protestant Bible or the Catholic Vulgate or the Talmud read in these schools."
For nearly half a century, the United States Supreme Court, consistent with this nation's history of secular schools, has ruled against religious indoctrination through schools (McCollum v. Board of Education, 1948), prayers and devotionals in public schools (Engel v. Vitale, 1962) and prayers and bible-reading (Abington School District v. Schempp, 1963), right up through the 1992 Weisman decision against prayers at public school commencements and Santa Fe v. Doe (2000) barring student-led prayers at public school events .
At the time the U.S. Supreme Court issued its 1962 and 1963 decrees against school-sponsored prayers and bible-reading, it is estimated religious observances were unknown in about half of the nation's public schools.
Horace Mann, the father of our public school system, championed the elimination of sectarianism from American schools, largely accomplished by the 1840's. Bible reading, prayers or hymns in public schools were absent from most public schools by the end of the 19th century, after Catholic or minority-religion immigrants objected to Protestant bias in public schools.
Presidents Ulysses S. Grant and Theodore Roosevelt spoke up for what Roosevelt called "absolutely nonsectarian public schools." Roosevelt added that it is "not our business to have the Protestant Bible or the Catholic Vulgate or the Talmud read in these schools."
For nearly half a century, the United States Supreme Court, consistent with this nation's history of secular schools, has ruled against religious indoctrination through schools (McCollum v. Board of Education, 1948), prayers and devotionals in public schools (Engel v. Vitale, 1962) and prayers and bible-reading (Abington School District v. Schempp, 1963), right up through the 1992 Weisman decision against prayers at public school commencements and Santa Fe v. Doe (2000) barring student-led prayers at public school events .
QUOTE
Can't Moral Decline Be Traced to the Prayer Decisions?
Some politicians like to blame everything bad in America upon the absence of school prayer. Get real! Entire generations of Americans have grown up to be law-abiding citizens without ever once reciting a prayer in school! If prayer is the answer, why are our jails and prisons bulging with born-agains! Japan, where no one prays at school, has the lowest crime rate of any developed nation.
Institutionalizing school prayer can not raise the SAT scores (only more studying and less praying can do that). It is irrational to charge that the complicated sociological problems facing our everchanging population stem from a lack of prayer in schools.
One might just as well credit the lack of prayer with the great advances that have taken place since the 1962 and 1963 decisions on prayer. Look at the leap in civil liberties, equality, environmental awareness, women's rights, science, technology and medicine! The polio scare is over. Fountains, buses, schools are no longer segregated by law. We've made great strides in medical treatment. We have VCRs and the computer chip. The Cold War has ended! Who would turn the clock back?
Some politicians like to blame everything bad in America upon the absence of school prayer. Get real! Entire generations of Americans have grown up to be law-abiding citizens without ever once reciting a prayer in school! If prayer is the answer, why are our jails and prisons bulging with born-agains! Japan, where no one prays at school, has the lowest crime rate of any developed nation.
Institutionalizing school prayer can not raise the SAT scores (only more studying and less praying can do that). It is irrational to charge that the complicated sociological problems facing our everchanging population stem from a lack of prayer in schools.
One might just as well credit the lack of prayer with the great advances that have taken place since the 1962 and 1963 decisions on prayer. Look at the leap in civil liberties, equality, environmental awareness, women's rights, science, technology and medicine! The polio scare is over. Fountains, buses, schools are no longer segregated by law. We've made great strides in medical treatment. We have VCRs and the computer chip. The Cold War has ended! Who would turn the clock back?
QUOTE
What About the Rights of the Majority?
Our political system is a democratic republic in which we use majority vote to elect certain officials or pass referenda. But we do not use majority vote to decide what religion, if any, our neighbors must observe! The "majority" is free to worship at home, at tax-exempt churches, on the way to and from school, or privately in school. There are 16 school-less hours a day when children can pray, not to mention weekends.
Many in the "majority" do not support school prayers. And if the majority religion gets to choose which prayers are said in schools, that would mean a lot of Protestant kids will be reciting Catholic prayers! The Roman Catholic Church is the single largest denomination in our country. Should Protestant minorities be excused so the classroom can pray in unison to the Virgin Mary? In a few school districts, Muslims outnumber other religions. Should Christian minorities march into the hall with their ears covered while the principal prays to Allah over the intercom?
Our political system is a democratic republic in which we use majority vote to elect certain officials or pass referenda. But we do not use majority vote to decide what religion, if any, our neighbors must observe! The "majority" is free to worship at home, at tax-exempt churches, on the way to and from school, or privately in school. There are 16 school-less hours a day when children can pray, not to mention weekends.
Many in the "majority" do not support school prayers. And if the majority religion gets to choose which prayers are said in schools, that would mean a lot of Protestant kids will be reciting Catholic prayers! The Roman Catholic Church is the single largest denomination in our country. Should Protestant minorities be excused so the classroom can pray in unison to the Virgin Mary? In a few school districts, Muslims outnumber other religions. Should Christian minorities march into the hall with their ears covered while the principal prays to Allah over the intercom?
Anyway, that was good.
Now for:
QUOTE
The biggest problem we have is that we have are doing away with self responsibility. It isn't your fault that you curse it is your mom's and dad's, it isn't your fault that your a bully it is Gods.
Religion = 'the dog ate it'. Except Religion is an excuse that kills, and has killed more people then any other single cause in history.
QUOTE
Everytime I ask this question about facts against intellegent design. I get the same answer science hasn't been able to prove intellegent design so it must not be.
Listen: You're thinking illogically.
If science has given NO EVIDENCE for Creationism or Intelligent Design(true statement), then they are JUST as likely as the Flying Spaghetti Monster creating the world yesterday.
JUST AS LIKELY.
UNLIKE ID, ABIOGENESIS IS STILL SCIENCE. Why? Unlike the ID 'God did it!', most time spent on abiogenesis is working out HOW it happened. IT involves chemicals, experiments, questions, hypothesis, and the scientific method, so it is science.
Determining whether the first few cells were started by a deity or abiogenesis IS NOT SCIENCE- that is speculation, because it(for now), is truly impossible to tell.
Summary:
Evolution- The Evolution of Living things, is science. The Fact of Evolution is the fact that all things evolve on Earth.
The Theory is the nit-pickings on HOW they have evolved over the years.
The Theory is based on sound evidence, observation, DNA evidence, experimentation, fossil evidence, and etc.
The theory MOST LIKELY HAS a few holes: Scientists do not pretend that we know exactly how every single little thing evolved.
These holes are currently not, and will probably never be even a small problem to the entire theory.
The Big Bang Theory- The theory that the universe exploded in an insanely fast moment from a singularity.
This is Science, as the theory is based on observation, math, and evidence that we see today.
Right now, what was BEFORE the big bang is somewhat speculatation: Right now, there is only a little evidence that points to specific hypothesises.
What was before the big bang has little to do with the big bang theory.
The Scientific Age of the Earth/Universe- THIS is Science. We have made conclusions based on the large amounts of evidence we have that points towards a VERY old earth and universe. The amount of evidence for such is astonishing.
Intelligent Design- THIS is basically not science. The only evidence(which, currently, does not exist) that could support Intelligent Design would be impossibly huge odds of Evolution/Abiogenesis. Most of ID basically claims that 'random events' are in fact controlled by god, which is not testable.
Creationism- Largely not science. Why? Because Creationists can continually make excuses like 'God made it that way' or 'God is trying to trick you'. Instead of reaching a conclusion based on evidence, Creationists twist the evidence to their pre-made conclusion.
The 'Science' part of Creationism is the arguments for a Young Earth(All of which have been debunked, of course), and the "evidence" against Evolution. It might not be very good evidence(it's not very good at all!), but they still used scientific observation, even if the conclusions were obscured purposefully/by mistake.
Hope that clears stuff up.
cheers,
SQLserver
QUOTE (WalkingWithFire @ Jun 30 2008, 04:15 PM)
Back when I was a kid, we had a woman come into the classroom and do a Bible study and prayer. We didn't have police officers in the hallways. Now it's just the opposite in schools. No Bible studies/prayer and police officers in the schools.
During that time--your Bible study time, what did the Jewish students do? the Buddhist students? the Taoists? the Atheists? the Muslims? the "Others"? What did they do?
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Jun 30 2008, 04:24 PM)
So other countries don't have prayer and have far higher levels of religious indifference and they don't have those problems. The 2 are not associated.
Source?
QUOTE (WalkingWithFire @ Jun 30 2008, 09:31 PM)
Source?
See above.
QUOTE
Back when I was a kid, we had a woman come into the classroom and do a Bible study and prayer. We didn't have police officers in the hallways. Now it's just the opposite in schools. No Bible studies/prayer and police officers in the schools.
That sounds highly illegal, unless you are over 60 years old.
I didn't think people that old used the internet!
QUOTE
Source?
Get that in a sec.
QUOTE (sqlserver @ Jun 30 2008, 04:28 PM)
OK, everybody.
If we had left slavery up to the 'students and parents', slavery would exist in the US today.
Apparently you don't either, but unfortunately your misunderstanding has the nasty side effect of voting Republican.
DATA, SIR.
How about showing us a nice little graph?
OK EVERYBODY, LISTEN UP.
Lets look at the facts.
A. Almost no other countries in the Western World have prayer in schools.
B. Japan, scoring in the top 5 nations in education, isn't even Christian.
C. This comic has a deep and serious meaning.
This should clear everything up.
So, WWF, does Atheism ruin schools? Does it ruin nations?
The answer is no. A resounding no.
The question is, what IS ruining the schools of America?
The big problem is the anti-intellectualism movement, often supported by extremely religious. The ideas that intellectuals are snobs, and are hated. This is a major problem in American schools. Just like the Religious arguments stem from a hate of "stuck up too-smart know-it-all scientists", the school problem stems from a hate of "stuck up too-smart know-it-all scientists".
Thus, we can pretty clearly conclude that the Religious war on Science is all too similar to the problem in schools today.
And, here's some help from this nice website here:
http://ffrf.org/nontracts/schoolprayer.php
A couple quick quotes, no? Don't want to copy and pasta too much, but this stuff is good.
Anyway, that was good.
Now for:
Religion = 'the dog ate it'. Except Religion is an excuse that kills, and has killed more people then any other single cause in history.
Listen: You're thinking illogically.
If science has given NO EVIDENCE for Creationism or Intelligent Design(true statement), then they are JUST as likely as the Flying Spaghetti Monster creating the world yesterday.
JUST AS LIKELY.
UNLIKE ID, ABIOGENESIS IS STILL SCIENCE. Why? Unlike the ID 'God did it!', most time spent on abiogenesis is working out HOW it happened. IT involves chemicals, experiments, questions, hypothesis, and the scientific method, so it is science.
Determining whether the first few cells were started by a deity or abiogenesis IS NOT SCIENCE- that is speculation, because it(for now), is truly impossible to tell.
Summary:
Evolution- The Evolution of Living things, is science. The Fact of Evolution is the fact that all things evolve on Earth.
The Theory is the nit-pickings on HOW they have evolved over the years.
The Theory is based on sound evidence, observation, DNA evidence, experimentation, fossil evidence, and etc.
The theory MOST LIKELY HAS a few holes: Scientists do not pretend that we know exactly how every single little thing evolved.
These holes are currently not, and will probably never be even a small problem to the entire theory.
The Big Bang Theory- The theory that the universe exploded in an insanely fast moment from a singularity.
This is Science, as the theory is based on observation, math, and evidence that we see today.
Right now, what was BEFORE the big bang is somewhat speculatation: Right now, there is only a little evidence that points to specific hypothesises.
What was before the big bang has little to do with the big bang theory.
The Scientific Age of the Earth/Universe- THIS is Science. We have made conclusions based on the large amounts of evidence we have that points towards a VERY old earth and universe. The amount of evidence for such is astonishing.
Intelligent Design- THIS is basically not science. The only evidence(which, currently, does not exist) that could support Intelligent Design would be impossibly huge odds of Evolution/Abiogenesis. Most of ID basically claims that 'random events' are in fact controlled by god, which is not testable.
Creationism- Largely not science. Why? Because Creationists can continually make excuses like 'God made it that way' or 'God is trying to trick you'. Instead of reaching a conclusion based on evidence, Creationists twist the evidence to their pre-made conclusion.
The 'Science' part of Creationism is the arguments for a Young Earth(All of which have been debunked, of course), and the "evidence" against Evolution. It might not be very good evidence(it's not very good at all!), but they still used scientific observation, even if the conclusions were obscured purposefully/by mistake.
Hope that clears stuff up.
cheers,
SQLserver
If we had left slavery up to the 'students and parents', slavery would exist in the US today.
Apparently you don't either, but unfortunately your misunderstanding has the nasty side effect of voting Republican.
DATA, SIR.
How about showing us a nice little graph?
OK EVERYBODY, LISTEN UP.
Lets look at the facts.
A. Almost no other countries in the Western World have prayer in schools.
B. Japan, scoring in the top 5 nations in education, isn't even Christian.
C. This comic has a deep and serious meaning.
This should clear everything up.
So, WWF, does Atheism ruin schools? Does it ruin nations?
The answer is no. A resounding no.
The question is, what IS ruining the schools of America?
The big problem is the anti-intellectualism movement, often supported by extremely religious. The ideas that intellectuals are snobs, and are hated. This is a major problem in American schools. Just like the Religious arguments stem from a hate of "stuck up too-smart know-it-all scientists", the school problem stems from a hate of "stuck up too-smart know-it-all scientists".
Thus, we can pretty clearly conclude that the Religious war on Science is all too similar to the problem in schools today.
And, here's some help from this nice website here:
http://ffrf.org/nontracts/schoolprayer.php
A couple quick quotes, no? Don't want to copy and pasta too much, but this stuff is good.
Anyway, that was good.
Now for:
Religion = 'the dog ate it'. Except Religion is an excuse that kills, and has killed more people then any other single cause in history.
Listen: You're thinking illogically.
If science has given NO EVIDENCE for Creationism or Intelligent Design(true statement), then they are JUST as likely as the Flying Spaghetti Monster creating the world yesterday.
JUST AS LIKELY.
UNLIKE ID, ABIOGENESIS IS STILL SCIENCE. Why? Unlike the ID 'God did it!', most time spent on abiogenesis is working out HOW it happened. IT involves chemicals, experiments, questions, hypothesis, and the scientific method, so it is science.
Determining whether the first few cells were started by a deity or abiogenesis IS NOT SCIENCE- that is speculation, because it(for now), is truly impossible to tell.
Summary:
Evolution- The Evolution of Living things, is science. The Fact of Evolution is the fact that all things evolve on Earth.
The Theory is the nit-pickings on HOW they have evolved over the years.
The Theory is based on sound evidence, observation, DNA evidence, experimentation, fossil evidence, and etc.
The theory MOST LIKELY HAS a few holes: Scientists do not pretend that we know exactly how every single little thing evolved.
These holes are currently not, and will probably never be even a small problem to the entire theory.
The Big Bang Theory- The theory that the universe exploded in an insanely fast moment from a singularity.
This is Science, as the theory is based on observation, math, and evidence that we see today.
Right now, what was BEFORE the big bang is somewhat speculatation: Right now, there is only a little evidence that points to specific hypothesises.
What was before the big bang has little to do with the big bang theory.
The Scientific Age of the Earth/Universe- THIS is Science. We have made conclusions based on the large amounts of evidence we have that points towards a VERY old earth and universe. The amount of evidence for such is astonishing.
Intelligent Design- THIS is basically not science. The only evidence(which, currently, does not exist) that could support Intelligent Design would be impossibly huge odds of Evolution/Abiogenesis. Most of ID basically claims that 'random events' are in fact controlled by god, which is not testable.
Creationism- Largely not science. Why? Because Creationists can continually make excuses like 'God made it that way' or 'God is trying to trick you'. Instead of reaching a conclusion based on evidence, Creationists twist the evidence to their pre-made conclusion.
The 'Science' part of Creationism is the arguments for a Young Earth(All of which have been debunked, of course), and the "evidence" against Evolution. It might not be very good evidence(it's not very good at all!), but they still used scientific observation, even if the conclusions were obscured purposefully/by mistake.
Hope that clears stuff up.
cheers,
SQLserver
Your Norway/Atheism cartoon is bogus.
http://www.norway.org.uk/facts/religion/general/gereral.htm
"Norway has an official Protestant State Church based on the Evangelical-Lutheran religion."
"...while 6.2% do not belong to any religious community at all."
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...k/print/no.html
"Norway
Religions: Church of Norway 85.7%, Pentecostal 1%, Roman Catholic 1%, other Christian 2.4%, Muslim 1.8%, other 8.1% (2004) "
QUOTE (WalkingWithFire @ Jun 30 2008, 09:42 PM)
Your Norway/Atheism cartoon is bogus.
http://www.norway.org.uk/facts/religion/general/gereral.htm
"Norway has an official Protestant State Church based on the Evangelical-Lutheran religion."
"...while 6.2% do not belong to any religious community at all."
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...k/print/no.html
"Norway
Religions: Church of Norway 85.7%, Pentecostal 1%, Roman Catholic 1%, other Christian 2.4%, Muslim 1.8%, other 8.1% (2004) "
http://www.norway.org.uk/facts/religion/general/gereral.htm
"Norway has an official Protestant State Church based on the Evangelical-Lutheran religion."
"...while 6.2% do not belong to any religious community at all."
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...k/print/no.html
"Norway
Religions: Church of Norway 85.7%, Pentecostal 1%, Roman Catholic 1%, other Christian 2.4%, Muslim 1.8%, other 8.1% (2004) "
That is church membership, it is not the same as belief.
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Jun 30 2008, 04:45 PM)
That is church membership, it is not the same as belief.
It's based on the evangelical/lutheran church. Please read the work-cited. Thanks.
Why would people join a evangelical lutheran church if they were atheists?
QUOTE (WalkingWithFire @ Jun 30 2008, 09:48 PM)
It's based on the evangelical/lutheran church. Please read the work-cited. Thanks.
Why would people join a evangelical lutheran church if they were atheists?
Why would people join a evangelical lutheran church if they were atheists?
I read. Thanks. how many turn up to services? 10% was it. Membership is not the same as belief and many will be cited as members by default.
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Jun 30 2008, 04:54 PM)
I read. Thanks. how many turn up to services? 10% was it. Membership is not the same as belief and many will be cited as members by default.
Please read the rest of the paragraph where it says they worship in private and religion is important to them. This means they are not atheists.
"Norwegian religious expression is largely private; whereas most individuals state that religion is important to them, this is not generally expressed through active religious participation in organized communities. While roughly 88% of the population belong to the Church of Norway, only 10% attend church services or other Christianity-related meetings more than once a month."
QUOTE
Your Norway/Atheism cartoon is bogus.
http://www.norway.org.uk/facts/religion/general/gereral.htm
"Norway has an official Protestant State Church based on the Evangelical-Lutheran religion."
"...while 6.2% do not belong to any religious community at all."
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...k/print/no.html
"Norway
Religions: Church of Norway 85.7%, Pentecostal 1%, Roman Catholic 1%, other Christian 2.4%, Muslim 1.8%, other 8.1% (2004) "
http://www.norway.org.uk/facts/religion/general/gereral.htm
"Norway has an official Protestant State Church based on the Evangelical-Lutheran religion."
"...while 6.2% do not belong to any religious community at all."
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...k/print/no.html
"Norway
Religions: Church of Norway 85.7%, Pentecostal 1%, Roman Catholic 1%, other Christian 2.4%, Muslim 1.8%, other 8.1% (2004) "
Au Contraire, seems to me THIS is bogus.
NationMaster has Norway Church attendance at 5%!
(All NationMaster information is directly from the US government's own figures)
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_chu_...urch-attendance
The important part, is, of course, THEY DO NOT HAVE PRAYER IN SCHOOL!
Japan church attendance: 3%
Japan Scientific literacy: Places 2nd
Japan Mathematical Literacy: Places 1st
The US places 14th and 18th on Science and Math respectively.
WWF-
The point is:
THERE CAN BE NO DENYING THAT PRAYER DOES NOT HELP STUDENTS PERFORM MORALLY OR ACADEMICALLY BETTER.
Would you like me to continue?
The US continually places worse in Education and Crime rates then more non-Christian, atheist countries, and less fundamental European countries.
If anything, religion HURTS our schools here in the US with its anti-intellectual attitude.
Cheers,
SQLserver
QUOTE (WalkingWithFire @ Jun 30 2008, 01:59 PM)
Please read the rest of the paragraph where it says they worship in private and religion is important to them. This means they are not atheists.
"Norwegian religious expression is largely private; whereas most individuals state that religion is important to them, this is not generally expressed through active religious participation in organized communities. While roughly 88% of the population belong to the Church of Norway, only 10% attend church services or other Christianity-related meetings more than once a month."
"Norwegian religious expression is largely private; whereas most individuals state that religion is important to them, this is not generally expressed through active religious participation in organized communities. While roughly 88% of the population belong to the Church of Norway, only 10% attend church services or other Christianity-related meetings more than once a month."
Just because they say it's important doesn't mean they actually believe what they say they do.
QUOTE (sqlserver @ Jun 30 2008, 05:02 PM)
Au Contraire, seems to me THIS is bogus.
NationMaster has Norway Church attendance at 5%!
(All NationMaster information is directly from the US government's own figures)
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_chu_...urch-attendance
The important part, is, of course, THEY DO NOT HAVE PRAYER IN SCHOOL!
Japan church attendance: 3%
Japan Scientific literacy: Places 2nd
Japan Mathematical Literacy: Places 1st
The US places 14th and 18th on Science and Math respectively.
WWF-
The point is:
THERE CAN BE NO DENYING THAT PRAYER DOES NOT HELP STUDENTS PERFORM MORALLY OR ACADEMICALLY BETTER.
Would you like me to continue?
The US continually places worse in Education and Crime rates then more non-Christian, atheist countries, and less fundamental European countries.
If anything, religion HURTS our schools here in the US with its anti-intellectual attitude.
Cheers,
SQLserver
NationMaster has Norway Church attendance at 5%!
(All NationMaster information is directly from the US government's own figures)
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_chu_...urch-attendance
The important part, is, of course, THEY DO NOT HAVE PRAYER IN SCHOOL!
Japan church attendance: 3%
Japan Scientific literacy: Places 2nd
Japan Mathematical Literacy: Places 1st
The US places 14th and 18th on Science and Math respectively.
WWF-
The point is:
THERE CAN BE NO DENYING THAT PRAYER DOES NOT HELP STUDENTS PERFORM MORALLY OR ACADEMICALLY BETTER.
Would you like me to continue?
The US continually places worse in Education and Crime rates then more non-Christian, atheist countries, and less fundamental European countries.
If anything, religion HURTS our schools here in the US with its anti-intellectual attitude.
Cheers,
SQLserver
I'm sure Norway's own statistics are more reliable than "Nationmaster". Nice try though, with the bogus cartoon and all. LOL. It's not April Fools for awhile though.
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Jun 30 2008, 05:04 PM)
Just because they say it's important doesn't mean they actually believe what they say they do.
Oh please. So all the Norweigans are telling lies?
QUOTE (WalkingWithFire @ Jun 30 2008, 02:05 PM)
I'm sure Norway's own statistics are more reliable than "Nationmaster". Nice try though, with the bogus cartoon and all. LOL. It's not April Fools for awhile though.
Of course, because Norway's statistics deal with Japan and the US...
QUOTE (sqlserver @ Jun 30 2008, 05:05 PM)
Ah yes.
Sources:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_mat_...atical-literacy
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_...me-total-crimes
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_sci_...ntific-literacy
Sources:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_mat_...atical-literacy
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_...me-total-crimes
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_sci_...ntific-literacy
The sources you're citing are contrary to Norway's own statistics.
QUOTE (WalkingWithFire @ Jun 30 2008, 02:06 PM)
Oh please. So all the Norweigans are telling lies?
Sure. Why not? Our founding fathers claimed to be Christian, but by today's standards they would be considered Atheists. So of course, why not?
QUOTE (Karlis @ Jun 30 2008, 04:59 PM)
I think you mis-read my meaning, Tiggs.
You know how to do in-depth research in obscure fields -- so, I thought you may be interested in looking at the opposite point of view also.
Regards,
Karlis
You know how to do in-depth research in obscure fields -- so, I thought you may be interested in looking at the opposite point of view also.
Regards,
Karlis
In the 1997 Poll by Nature, overall, 39.3% of Biologists, Physicists and Mathematicians from America said that they believed in God. This is pretty close to the percentage that expressed a belief in God in 1914, 41.8%. The split is:
Mathematicians : 46.6%
Physicists/Astronomers : 21%
Biologists : Undisclosed
In the top tier of Science, however, - only 7% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences(containing only 2,000 or so of the nations 650,000 PhD's) claimed belief in a God, a large drop from the 27.7% recorded in the 1914 figures. The split is:
Mathematicians : 14.3%
Physicists/Astronomers : 7.5%
Biologists : 5%
It could (and will be, I'm sure) argued that this is proof that at the very highest level of Science, positve discrimination against believers in God exists. It should, however, be noted that there is a positive correlation between IQ and Atheism, as is reflected both within the NAS results and between the overall results as compared to those of the mainstream US population.
QUOTE (WalkingWithFire @ Jun 30 2008, 02:07 PM)
The sources you're citing are contrary to Norway's own statistics.
Well, what's your link for Norway's statistics? Did you go to Norway and ask them? Or did you just use the internet which can be altered by anyone?
QUOTE (sqlserver @ Jun 30 2008, 04:02 PM)
Au Contraire, seems to me THIS is bogus.
NationMaster has Norway Church attendance at 5%!
(All NationMaster information is directly from the US government's own figures)
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_chu_...urch-attendance
The important part, is, of course, THEY DO NOT HAVE PRAYER IN SCHOOL!
Japan church attendance: 3%
Japan Scientific literacy: Places 2nd
Japan Mathematical Literacy: Places 1st
The US places 14th and 18th on Science and Math respectively.
WWF-
The point is:
THERE CAN BE NO DENYING THAT PRAYER DOES NOT HELP STUDENTS PERFORM MORALLY OR ACADEMICALLY BETTER.
Would you like me to continue?
The US continually places worse in Education and Crime rates then more non-Christian, atheist countries, and less fundamental European countries.
If anything, religion HURTS our schools here in the US with its anti-intellectual attitude.
Cheers,
SQLserver
NationMaster has Norway Church attendance at 5%!
(All NationMaster information is directly from the US government's own figures)
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_chu_...urch-attendance
The important part, is, of course, THEY DO NOT HAVE PRAYER IN SCHOOL!
Japan church attendance: 3%
Japan Scientific literacy: Places 2nd
Japan Mathematical Literacy: Places 1st
The US places 14th and 18th on Science and Math respectively.
WWF-
The point is:
THERE CAN BE NO DENYING THAT PRAYER DOES NOT HELP STUDENTS PERFORM MORALLY OR ACADEMICALLY BETTER.
Would you like me to continue?
The US continually places worse in Education and Crime rates then more non-Christian, atheist countries, and less fundamental European countries.
If anything, religion HURTS our schools here in the US with its anti-intellectual attitude.
Cheers,
SQLserver
This is because those in charge of our education. The teachers union, which back the democrats, refuse to allow teachers to teach. It is far better for the 10 year old kids to be out on the picket line with their teachers to get the teachers a pay raise. Don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about. I saw it two years in a row in salt lake city.
QUOTE
I'm sure Norway's own statistics are more reliable than "Nationmaster". Nice try though, with the bogus cartoon and all. LOL. It's not April Fools for awhile though.
Seems to me you can't read. I specifically said that the information comes directly from the US government CIA factbook.
LOL, by the way, from your source:
QUOTE
While roughly 88% of the population belong to the Church of Norway, only 10% attend church services or other Christianity-related meetings more than once a month.
Still a little high, so the average is somewhere in between.
Many would also put down that they are a 'Christian' on a survey, simply because Christiantiy is traditional and family-oriented in Europe.
However, their real devotion is seen more in the Church attendance.
PLUS NORWAY DOES NOT HAVE PRAYER IN SCHOOLS!
Not that Norway matters. I could specify plenty other countries.(Already done with Japan)
We've already won this point. I've pointed out that in fact the statistics IN NO WAY SHOW that prayer in schools helps morally and DEFINITELY not academically. You are just nit-picking on a specific country while covering your defeat.
Cheers,
SQLserver
QUOTE (sqlserver @ Jun 30 2008, 05:05 PM)
Ah yes.
Sources:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_mat_...atical-literacy
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_...me-total-crimes
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_sci_...ntific-literacy
Sources:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_mat_...atical-literacy
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_...me-total-crimes
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_sci_...ntific-literacy
Again, most are part of a Protestant/Evangelical/Lutheran State church. Their primary style of worship is to worship independently in the home. I've posted this already from Norway.org. Most Norwegians belong to the State Church. THey are not primarily atheists.
Sql S quotes: If anything, religion HURTS our schools here in the US with its anti-intellectual attitude.
Indeed ....the quickest way to oppresion and issues adapting is to limit the ideas one can be exposed to....... it seems that religion is constantly in conflict and unwilling to compromise....and the issues have seriously put issues in our path thatare harrwing to overcome...... albiet, we are growing as a culture and I think its the ones taking a stand and saying lets find a way that is win win for us all...so i dont see it as hopeless i see more thinking for themselves and being the change they wish to see..............yahoo...
these are the ones that are changing the face of religion letting go of many fo the harmful ideas that are no longer serving us this is also what growth does if one allows for it.....but even then growth occurs such is the nature of life IMO......... we can see how many of the beleifs have not served us and have actually created war and rifts where none ever had/have to be.....
Indeed ....the quickest way to oppresion and issues adapting is to limit the ideas one can be exposed to....... it seems that religion is constantly in conflict and unwilling to compromise....and the issues have seriously put issues in our path thatare harrwing to overcome...... albiet, we are growing as a culture and I think its the ones taking a stand and saying lets find a way that is win win for us all...so i dont see it as hopeless i see more thinking for themselves and being the change they wish to see..............yahoo...
these are the ones that are changing the face of religion letting go of many fo the harmful ideas that are no longer serving us this is also what growth does if one allows for it.....but even then growth occurs such is the nature of life IMO......... we can see how many of the beleifs have not served us and have actually created war and rifts where none ever had/have to be.....
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Jun 30 2008, 05:08 PM)
Well, what's your link for Norway's statistics? Did you go to Norway and ask them? Or did you just use the internet which can be altered by anyone?
Norway.org and CIA.gov can be altered by anyone?
That's where I cited from.
QUOTE (WalkingWithFire @ Jun 30 2008, 09:59 PM)
Please read the rest of the paragraph where it says they worship in private and religion is important to them. This means they are not atheists.
"Norwegian religious expression is largely private; whereas most individuals state that religion is important to them, this is not generally expressed through active religious participation in organized communities. While roughly 88% of the population belong to the Church of Norway, only 10% attend church services or other Christianity-related meetings more than once a month."
"Norwegian religious expression is largely private; whereas most individuals state that religion is important to them, this is not generally expressed through active religious participation in organized communities. While roughly 88% of the population belong to the Church of Norway, only 10% attend church services or other Christianity-related meetings more than once a month."
You are implying meaning there.
While although the figure for Norway at 70% may not be accurate, only 29% of Norwegians when asked if they believed in God said yes (from the Norwegian newspaper Aftenposten)
For Sweden However (another country with high standards of living, wages, longevity and low crime and drug abuse) it seems well over half the country are atheist: Atheism.
Norway places people in the Church of Norway at birth btw and people generally don't bother to go through the bureaucracy of leaving it; as I said, it is a default.
QUOTE (WalkingWithFire @ Jun 30 2008, 02:13 PM)
Norway.org and CIA.gov can be altered by anyone?
That's where I cited from.
That's where I cited from.
No, that's good. Government run cites. Which, can be altered by the government, that is.
QUOTE
This is because those in charge of our education. The teachers union, which back the democrats, refuse to allow teachers to teach. It is far better for the 10 year old kids to be out on the picket line with their teachers to get the teachers a pay raise. Don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about. I saw it two years in a row in salt lake city.
You are blaiming TEACHERS UNIONS for bad education?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
A. Strikes are extremely rare. Heck, they hardly ever happen, and no more then a few weeks.(Which would be an extreme)
B. I've already explained the real reasons for poor education in america.
COPY AND PASTA!
The big problem is the anti-intellectualism movement, often supported by extremely religious. The ideas that intellectuals are snobs, and are hated. This is a major problem in American schools. Just like the Religious arguments stem from a hate of "stuck up too-smart know-it-all scientists", the school problem stems from a hate of "stuck up too-smart know-it-all scientists".
Thus, we can pretty clearly conclude that the Religious war on Science is all too similar to the problem in schools today.
You are just grasping at straws here. You keep trying to blame the bad education in America on Atheism or Evolution or whatnot, when in fact the answer is so ridiculously simple that most kids could tell you.
It's not cool to be smart in America these days.
-SQLServer
QUOTE (sqlserver @ Jun 30 2008, 04:10 PM)
Seems to me you can't read. I specifically said that the information comes directly from the US government CIA factbook.
LOL, by the way, from your source:
Still a little high, so the average is somewhere in between.
Many would also put down that they are a 'Christian' on a survey, simply because Christiantiy is traditional and family-oriented in Europe.
However, their real devotion is seen more in the Church attendance.
PLUS NORWAY DOES NOT HAVE PRAYER IN SCHOOLS!
Not that Norway matters. I could specify plenty other countries.(Already done with Japan)
We've already won this point. I've pointed out that in fact the statistics IN NO WAY SHOW that prayer in schools helps morally and DEFINITELY not academically. You are just nit-picking on a specific country while covering your defeat.
Cheers,
SQLserver
LOL, by the way, from your source:
Still a little high, so the average is somewhere in between.
Many would also put down that they are a 'Christian' on a survey, simply because Christiantiy is traditional and family-oriented in Europe.
However, their real devotion is seen more in the Church attendance.
PLUS NORWAY DOES NOT HAVE PRAYER IN SCHOOLS!
Not that Norway matters. I could specify plenty other countries.(Already done with Japan)
We've already won this point. I've pointed out that in fact the statistics IN NO WAY SHOW that prayer in schools helps morally and DEFINITELY not academically. You are just nit-picking on a specific country while covering your defeat.
Cheers,
SQLserver
That is the main difference between religion in general and the secular movement. Religion is about the family. seculat is about the individual.
QUOTE (danielost @ Jun 30 2008, 10:15 PM)
That is the main difference between religion in general and the secular movement. Religion is about the family. seculat is about the individual.
Can you back that up? Because I consider that to be nonsense.
Wow. Now I'm really glad I live in California. What with all our liberal-ness and whatnot.
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Jun 30 2008, 05:13 PM)
You are implying meaning there.
While although the figure for Norway at 70% may not be accurate, only 29% of Norwegians when asked if they believed in God said yes (from the Norwegian newspaper Aftenposten)
For Sweden However (another country with high standards of living, wages, longevity and low crime and drug abuse) it seems well over half the country are atheist: Atheism.
Norway places people in the Church of Norway at birth btw and people generally don't bother to go through the bureaucracy of leaving it.
While although the figure for Norway at 70% may not be accurate, only 29% of Norwegians when asked if they believed in God said yes (from the Norwegian newspaper Aftenposten)
For Sweden However (another country with high standards of living, wages, longevity and low crime and drug abuse) it seems well over half the country are atheist: Atheism.
Norway places people in the Church of Norway at birth btw and people generally don't bother to go through the bureaucracy of leaving it.
Now you're just quote mining the Internet. The cartoon sgl posted was clearly bogus. Most Norweigans belong to the State Church and worship in their home. This is according to the Norweigan government.
QUOTE
Again, most are part of a Protestant/Evangelical/Lutheran State church. Their primary style of worship is to worship independently in the home. I've posted this already from Norway.org. Most Norwegians belong to the State Church. THey are not primarily atheists.
WWF- I'm going to ask you a couple of questions, JUST ANSWER THEM!
OK?
1. How religious can Norweigans be IF IN FACT ALL SOURCES AGREE 10% OR LESS actually go to church at least once a month?
2. How does no prayer in Schools hurt if NORWEIGANS, JAPANESE, KOREANS, THE UK, FRANCE, and most of the modern world DOES NOT HAVE PRAYER IN SCHOOLS, yet they are still outperforming the US.
WWF- Just admit you've lost this point, ok? Move on from this!
ALL of the Statistics and FACTS show that PRAYER DOES NOT HELP SCHOOLS, and in fact, Fundamentalist Religion could be a Factor that HURTS American schools.
-SQlserver
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Jun 30 2008, 10:17 PM)
Wow. Now I'm really glad I live in California. What with all our liberal-ness and whatnot.
Makes me kinda glad I'm back in Europe.
QUOTE (WalkingWithFire @ Jun 30 2008, 02:18 PM)
Now you're just quote mining the Internet. The cartoon sgl posted was clearly bogus. Most Norweigans belong to the State Church and worship in their home. This is according to the Norweigan government.
Please, you're assuming that because Norwegians say religion is important that they worship at home instead of church, when the government data says otherwise. You're the one who's quote mining WWF.
QUOTE
That is the main difference between religion in general and the secular movement. Religion is about the family. seculat is about the individual.
Please do not quote me out of context, daniel.
What I actually said:
QUOTE
Many would also put down that they are a 'Christian' on a survey, simply because Christiantiy is traditional and family-oriented in Europe.
I was trying to explain that because Christianity is a TRADITION in Europe, many would put it down as their religion.
However, THEY DO NOT GO TO CHURCH, ACCORDING TO ALL DATA SOURCES PUT FORTH.
Plus, they do NOT have school prayer, WHICH IS WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT.
End of story.
FACT TIME:
The countries that are doing best in Education do not have School prayer, and many aren't even Christian.
Moving on...
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Jun 30 2008, 10:19 PM)
Please, you're assuming that because Norwegians say religion is important that they worship at home instead of church, when the government data says otherwise. You're the one who's quote mining WWF.
He is also not taking into account the fact that Norway by default puts its citizens into the Church of Norway. You have to actually write to them to leave it.
Corollary to the FACT:
This means that there is something ELSE wrong with the schools in the US.
And, as I've explained, that is the ANTI-INTELLECTUALISM in our schools today. Religious Fundies promote this too.
Another Corollary:
Countries such as Japan and Norway have NO SCHOOL PRAYER, yet have minimum drug use and school violence.
This means that there is something ELSE wrong with the schools in the US.
And, as I've explained, that is the ANTI-INTELLECTUALISM in our schools today. Religious Fundies promote this too.
Another Corollary:
Countries such as Japan and Norway have NO SCHOOL PRAYER, yet have minimum drug use and school violence.
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Jun 30 2008, 02:22 PM)
He is also not taking into account the fact that Norway by default puts its citizens into the Church of Norway. You have to actually write to them to leave it.
Church by default? No wonder they say it's important. Obviously anything is important if you have to be shoved into it the moment you leave your mother's womb and have to formally write a letter to get out of it. No wonder no one attends the services....
The European Union's recent publication (2005) entitled "Social Values, Science and Technology", has the following statistics for Norway:
32% - "I believe there is a God"
47% - "I believe there is some sort of Spirit or life force"
17% - "I don’ t believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force"
4% - "I don't know"
32% - "I believe there is a God"
47% - "I believe there is some sort of Spirit or life force"
17% - "I don’ t believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force"
4% - "I don't know"
QUOTE (Tiggs @ Jun 30 2008, 10:25 PM)
The European Union's recent publication (2005) entitled "Social Values, Science and Technology", has the following statistics for Norway:
32% - "I believe there is a God"
47% - "I believe there is some sort of Spirit of life force" -
17% - "I don’ t believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force"
4% - " I don't know"
32% - "I believe there is a God"
47% - "I believe there is some sort of Spirit of life force" -
17% - "I don’ t believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force"
4% - " I don't know"
Slightly different to Aftenposten, but not too much, they had between 20 and 30 for each option.
QUOTE (sqlserver @ Jun 30 2008, 04:14 PM)
You are blaiming TEACHERS UNIONS for bad education?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
A. Strikes are extremely rare. Heck, they hardly ever happen, and no more then a few weeks.(Which would be an extreme)
B. I've already explained the real reasons for poor education in america.
COPY AND PASTA!
The big problem is the anti-intellectualism movement, often supported by extremely religious. The ideas that intellectuals are snobs, and are hated. This is a major problem in American schools. Just like the Religious arguments stem from a hate of "stuck up too-smart know-it-all scientists", the school problem stems from a hate of "stuck up too-smart know-it-all scientists".
Thus, we can pretty clearly conclude that the Religious war on Science is all too similar to the problem in schools today.
You are just grasping at straws here. You keep trying to blame the bad education in America on Atheism or Evolution or whatnot, when in fact the answer is so ridiculously simple that most kids could tell you.
It's not cool to be smart in America these days.
-SQLServer
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
A. Strikes are extremely rare. Heck, they hardly ever happen, and no more then a few weeks.(Which would be an extreme)
B. I've already explained the real reasons for poor education in america.
COPY AND PASTA!
The big problem is the anti-intellectualism movement, often supported by extremely religious. The ideas that intellectuals are snobs, and are hated. This is a major problem in American schools. Just like the Religious arguments stem from a hate of "stuck up too-smart know-it-all scientists", the school problem stems from a hate of "stuck up too-smart know-it-all scientists".
Thus, we can pretty clearly conclude that the Religious war on Science is all too similar to the problem in schools today.
You are just grasping at straws here. You keep trying to blame the bad education in America on Atheism or Evolution or whatnot, when in fact the answer is so ridiculously simple that most kids could tell you.
It's not cool to be smart in America these days.
-SQLServer
;Please tell me why the state with the least amount of money going into education has the best test scores. New Jersey of course this info is 5 years old so it may have changed.
This would be the same teachers union who has decided that some words are just to hard to spell and told the government that we need to change or do away with some words. Such as to too and two.
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