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Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Ancient Mysteries & Alternative History
Sammeh
Hey there,

I own this plate that belonged to my mother, and she received it from her father whom received it off an antique shop owner when he owed my grandfather a large sum of money, he told my grandfather never to sell it if he was to get rid of it, but to take it back to the shop. lucky he didn't sell it because now it is mine.

Every body i have asked thus far, says the Chinese text on the back of the plate is long out-dated and no longer used, but I'm not sure if this place is the real deal or a reproduction. if its real does any one know what it says or know the meaning behind it?

here are some photos:

linked-image
linked-image


thanks,
Sam
Slave2Fate
WOW Sammeh, that is very cool! thumbsup.gif

I can't help you with determining its authenticity though, sorry.
questionmark
The plate certainly is not "new", and evidently must have a value. What I cannot see from the picture is whether it is authentic or a reproduction. The motif seems to jive with a so-called dragon plate (see: Thomas & Pavitt - Book of Talismans).

My suggestion is: take it over to the next archaeological museum and ask somebody there.
1.618
So far all i've been about to find out is that it's in a style used in the nineteenth century as a memorial or keepsake. Depending on size, it would be worn arround the neck or kept on a table.
The person i asked could only translate a couple of the words on the left had side. One equates to 'given' and the other 'king/ruler'.
Moonie2012
I'm certainly no expert, but I don't get an extremely ancient vibe from it - I'd guess it to be 100 years old at most.

Again, I'm no expert and I'm probably way off.
Harte
QUOTE (Sammeh @ Jul 2 2008, 05:37 AM) *
Hey there,

I own this plate that belonged to my mother, and she received it from her father whom received it off an antique shop owner when he owed my grandfather a large sum of money, he told my grandfather never to sell it if he was to get rid of it, but to take it back to the shop. lucky he didn't sell it because now it is mine.

Every body i have asked thus far, says the Chinese text on the back of the plate is long out-dated and no longer used, but I'm not sure if this place is the real deal or a reproduction. if its real does any one know what it says or know the meaning behind it?
thanks,
Sam

Sam,

It's probably not exactly "ancient," though that would depend on how old you think a thing has to be to be considered "ancient."

I can't help you with the Chinese characters on the back, but looking at the front, the dragon appears to have five toes. That could mean it's worth some money if it is old and not a reproduction:
QUOTE
It is sometimes noted that the Chinese dragons have five toes on each foot, while the Japanese dragons have three. To explain this phenomenon, Chinese legend states that all Imperial dragons originated in China, and the further away from China a dragon went the fewer toes it had. Dragons only exist in China and Japan because if they traveled further they would have no toes to continue.

However, historical records show that ordinary Chinese dragons had four toes (this dragon was known as Mang), but the Imperial dragon had five (as in the Five elements of Chinese philosophy) (this dragon was known as Long). The four-clawed dragon was typically for nobility and certain high ranking officials. The three clawed dragon was used by the general public (widely seen on various Chinese goods in Ming dynasty). The Long, however, was only for select royalty closely associated with the Imperial family, usually in various symbolic colors, while it was a capital offense for anyone - other than the emperor himself - to ever use the completely gold-colored, five-clawed Long dragon motif. Improper use of claw number and/or colors was considered treason, punishable by execution of the offender's entire clan. Since most east Asian nations at one point or another were considered Chinese tributaries, they were only allowed four-clawed dragons. The five toes rule was enforced since 1336 AD (Yuan the second year).
(My emphases.)
Source

If it's not a reproduction, it could be that it once belonged to a member of the Emperor's retinue. That is, if I'm seeing the toes right.

Harte
Sammeh
QUOTE (Harte @ Jul 3 2008, 03:12 AM) *
Sam,

It's probably not exactly "ancient," though that would depend on how old you think a thing has to be to be considered "ancient."

I can't help you with the Chinese characters on the back, but looking at the front, the dragon appears to have five toes. That could mean it's worth some money if it is old and not a reproduction:
(My emphases.)
Source

If it's not a reproduction, it could be that it once belonged to a member of the Emperor's retinue. That is, if I'm seeing the toes right.

Harte


very interesting, on close inspection though it appears to only have three toes on each foot, however the feet are at curious angles so its hard to tell if i am looking at the toes correctly.



QUOTE (mr nobody @ Jul 3 2008, 01:19 AM) *
So far all I've been about to find out is that it's in a style used in the nineteenth century as a memorial or keepsake. Depending on size, it would be worn around the neck or kept on a table.
The person i asked could only translate a couple of the words on the left had side. One equates to 'given' and the other 'king/ruler'.



I'd say its a tad large for a neck ornament it has a diameter of exactly 9 inches, it is rather heavy for its size though, I'm not sure of what material it is made of, when i flick it it rings and sounds sort of like a crystal goblet, when u rub your finger over the rim and it echoes.
Aanica
QUOTE (Sammeh @ Jul 2 2008, 05:37 AM) *
Hey there,

I own this plate that belonged to my mother, and she received it from her father whom received it off an antique shop owner when he owed my grandfather a large sum of money, he told my grandfather never to sell it if he was to get rid of it, but to take it back to the shop. lucky he didn't sell it because now it is mine.

Every body i have asked thus far, says the Chinese text on the back of the plate is long out-dated and no longer used, but I'm not sure if this place is the real deal or a reproduction. if its real does any one know what it says or know the meaning behind it?

here are some photos:

linked-image
linked-image


thanks,
Sam
No I am sorry to say I don't but that is so beautiful and I feel you have a real nice work of art, keep it always..
hetrodoxly
QUOTE (Sammeh @ Jul 2 2008, 11:37 AM) *
Hey there,

I own this plate that belonged to my mother, and she received it from her father whom received it off an antique shop owner when he owed my grandfather a large sum of money, he told my grandfather never to sell it if he was to get rid of it, but to take it back to the shop. lucky he didn't sell it because now it is mine.

Every body i have asked thus far, says the Chinese text on the back of the plate is long out-dated and no longer used, but I'm not sure if this place is the real deal or a reproduction. if its real does any one know what it says or know the meaning behind it?

here are some photos:

linked-image
linked-image


thanks,
Sam


What material is it made from? it appears to imitate buried bronze but the verdigris doesn't look right, the way some of its worn off on the high points revealing the bronze underneath is very so so, the back shows a rough casting but the colour looks wrong and the foundry mark very weak if this was a genuine chinese bronze it would be much sharper well, the whole plaque would be.
If it's not bronze (though it pretends to be) it would most defiantly have some wear on the edges if it had any age to it.
Sammeh
QUOTE (hetrodoxly @ Jul 4 2008, 06:50 AM) *
What material is it made from? it appears to imitate buried bronze but the verdigris doesn't look right, the way some of its worn off on the high points revealing the bronze underneath is very so so, the back shows a rough casting but the colour looks wrong and the foundry mark very weak if this was a genuine chinese bronze it would be much sharper well, the whole plaque would be.
If it's not bronze (though it pretends to be) it would most defiantly have some wear on the edges if it had any age to it.



your probably right, though most of what appears to be worn off areas is just the light of the camera flash glowing on the smoother surfaces, there doesn't seem to be much wear in the greenish finish, though on the back there is a slight scuff mark the undercoler appears bronze with a slight silver tinge.

-sam
Jhona
It Looks like its made from jade. The Charaters Dont look like the modern Chinese Writing, its less angular and more streamlined. but i think i know what the second charater on the second row means. I think it means Water
Aanica
QUOTE (Sammeh @ Jul 2 2008, 05:37 AM) *
Hey there,

I own this plate that belonged to my mother, and she received it from her father whom received it off an antique shop owner when he owed my grandfather a large sum of money, he told my grandfather never to sell it if he was to get rid of it, but to take it back to the shop. lucky he didn't sell it because now it is mine.

Every body i have asked thus far, says the Chinese text on the back of the plate is long out-dated and no longer used, but I'm not sure if this place is the real deal or a reproduction. if its real does any one know what it says or know the meaning behind it?

here are some photos:

linked-image
linked-image


thanks,
Sam
Try to see if you can contact Antiques Road Show or Christy's of New York they can tell you the process of identifying your object bTW it is beautiful...You will have best results with someone ike them best of luck with your treasure..




http://www.worthpoint.com/?source=google&a...CFRghnAodiiUFSA




And contact info for the roadshow they have a list of Appraisers that you can contact

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/appraisers/index.html




This is a link to Chrsty's of New York

http://www.christies.com/services/trusts-estates/
Noah's Ark
Hello, very cool piece.

My gut feeling is saying it doesn't have the age and therefore, value, that we all want to see, but I'd look at the writing, and probable age of that, since that appears to be quite old. And some examples of art in that period, and what the piece is made out of.

Evolution of Chinese writing

Keep us posted, I'd like to hear more.

Seeya
-Noah
marabod
QUOTE (Sammeh @ Jul 2 2008, 10:37 PM) *
Hey there,

I own this plate that belonged to my mother, and she received it from her father whom received it off an antique shop owner when he owed my grandfather a large sum of money, he told my grandfather never to sell it if he was to get rid of it, but to take it back to the shop. lucky he didn't sell it because now it is mine.

Every body i have asked thus far, says the Chinese text on the back of the plate is long out-dated and no longer used, but I'm not sure if this place is the real deal or a reproduction. if its real does any one know what it says or know the meaning behind it?

here are some photos:

linked-image
linked-image


thanks,
Sam


The inscription is made in old-fashioned Clerical script. 4 top charachters in the right column read Ta Ch'ing Quang Long (or Chien Lung), Great Ching Chien Lung, so the plate must be either 18th century 1736-1796 or a later imitation.
reallygreatidea
Well as interesting as the plate and writing are....I would guess that for anyone to authenticate it they would have to see it in person....certainly hold on to it and try to get it appraised somewhere!! original.gif
marabod
This plate was mass-produced, as the inscription on it was casted, not later engraved. The degree of respect which was in that period shown to emperor's name practically excludes the possibility of it being authentic, as the imperfectnesses on the name were not allowed.
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