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__Kratos__
Southern Baptist Scholar Links Spouse Abuse to Wives' Refusal to Submit to Their Husbands

One reason that men abuse their wives is because women rebel against their husband's God-given authority, a Southern Baptist scholar said Sunday in a Texas church.

Bruce Ware, professor of Christian theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., said women desire to have their own way instead of submitting to their husbands because of sin.

"And husbands on their parts, because they're sinners, now respond to that threat to their authority either by being abusive, which is of course one of the ways men can respond when their authority is challenged--or, more commonly, to become passive, acquiescent, and simply not asserting the leadership they ought to as men in their homes and in churches," Ware said from the pulpit of Denton Bible Church in Denton, Texas.


In North Texas for a series of sermons at the church on "Biblical Manhood & Womanhood," Ware described his "complementarian" view as what "Southern Seminary as a whole represents."

Commenting on selected passages from the first three chapters of Genesis, Ware said Eve's curse in the Garden of Eden meant "her desire will be to have her way" instead of her obeying her husband, "because she's a sinner."

What that means to the man, Ware said, is: "He will have to rule, and because he's a sinner, this can happen in one of two ways. It can happen either through ruling that is abusive and oppressive--and of course we all know the horrors of that and the ugliness of that--but here's the other way in which he can respond when his authority is threatened. He can acquiesce. He can become passive. He can give up any responsibility that he thought he had to the leader in the relationship and just say 'OK dear,' 'Whatever you say dear,' 'Fine dear' and become a passive husband, because of sin."

Ware said God created men and women equally in God's image but for different roles.

"He has primary responsibility for the work and the labor and the toil that will provide for the family, that will sustain their family," he said. "He's the one in charge of leadership in the family, and that will become difficult, because of sin."

Ware also touched on a verse from First Timothy saying that women "shall be saved in childbearing," by noting that the word translated as "saved" always refers to eternal salvation.

"It means that a woman will demonstrate that she is in fact a Christian, that she has submitted to God's ways by affirming and embracing her God-designed identity as--for the most part, generally this is true--as wife and mother, rather than chafing against it, rather than bucking against it, rather than wanting to be a man, wanting to be in a man's position, wanting to teach and exercise authority over men," Ware said. "Rather than wanting that, she accepts and embraces who she is as woman, because she knows God and she knows his ways are right and good, so she is marked as a Christian by her submission to God and in that her acceptance of God's design for her as a woman."

More of the article here: Link

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow. mellow.gif I could be wrong here, but shouldn't believer males find better ways to express themselves rather then beating on a woman?
danielost
QUOTE (__Kratos__ @ Jul 4 2008, 02:00 AM) *
One reason that men abuse their wives is because women rebel against their husband's God-given authority, a Southern Baptist scholar said Sunday in a Texas church.

Bruce Ware, professor of Christian theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., said women desire to have their own way instead of submitting to their husbands because of sin.

"And husbands on their parts, because they're sinners, now respond to that threat to their authority either by being abusive, which is of course one of the ways men can respond when their authority is challenged--or, more commonly, to become passive, acquiescent, and simply not asserting the leadership they ought to as men in their homes and in churches," Ware said from the pulpit of Denton Bible Church in Denton, Texas.


In North Texas for a series of sermons at the church on "Biblical Manhood & Womanhood," Ware described his "complementarian" view as what "Southern Seminary as a whole represents."

Commenting on selected passages from the first three chapters of Genesis, Ware said Eve's curse in the Garden of Eden meant "her desire will be to have her way" instead of her obeying her husband, "because she's a sinner."

What that means to the man, Ware said, is: "He will have to rule, and because he's a sinner, this can happen in one of two ways. It can happen either through ruling that is abusive and oppressive--and of course we all know the horrors of that and the ugliness of that--but here's the other way in which he can respond when his authority is threatened. He can acquiesce. He can become passive. He can give up any responsibility that he thought he had to the leader in the relationship and just say 'OK dear,' 'Whatever you say dear,' 'Fine dear' and become a passive husband, because of sin."

Ware said God created men and women equally in God's image but for different roles.

"He has primary responsibility for the work and the labor and the toil that will provide for the family, that will sustain their family," he said. "He's the one in charge of leadership in the family, and that will become difficult, because of sin."

Ware also touched on a verse from First Timothy saying that women "shall be saved in childbearing," by noting that the word translated as "saved" always refers to eternal salvation.

"It means that a woman will demonstrate that she is in fact a Christian, that she has submitted to God's ways by affirming and embracing her God-designed identity as--for the most part, generally this is true--as wife and mother, rather than chafing against it, rather than bucking against it, rather than wanting to be a man, wanting to be in a man's position, wanting to teach and exercise authority over men," Ware said. "Rather than wanting that, she accepts and embraces who she is as woman, because she knows God and she knows his ways are right and good, so she is marked as a Christian by her submission to God and in that her acceptance of God's design for her as a woman."

More of the article here: Link

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow. mellow.gif I could be wrong here, but shouldn't believer males find better ways to express themselves rather then beating on a woman?




didn't follow this link I read some of the above. enough to know in my opinion it is bogus.
Ghost It Notes
QUOTE (danielost @ Jul 4 2008, 12:04 AM) *
didn't follow this link I read some of the above. enough to know in my opinion it is bogus.


Agreed.
__Kratos__
So you don't think god has different roles for both men and women? The bible really says differently for christians.
momentarylapseofreason
QUOTE (__Kratos__ @ Jul 4 2008, 09:42 AM) *
So you don't think god has different roles for both men and women? The bible really says differently for christians.



Yes it does.

Let the twisting and cherry picking commence............
momentarylapseofreason
Yes, we know that most of you Christian men don't condone beating your wives in any way whatsoever. Don't worry.

Just picking on the Fundie mentality.

Disturbing what you can make out of those biblical verses isn't it ?

Maybe that is the test (assuming there is one) in that how you choose to use/interpret this book .

Just a thought

My fear is how people interpret it-but maybe I shouldn't interfere with gods plan (again assuming there is a plan-Daniellost said god has no plans)
danielost
QUOTE (__Kratos__ @ Jul 4 2008, 02:42 AM) *
So you don't think god has different roles for both men and women? The bible really says differently for christians.



Yes man bread winner woman home maker. Does it have to be this way no. Is the woman answerable to the man yes because of the fruit.


Is the man supposed to lord it over her no. That is why God took a rib so they could walk side by side.
danielost
QUOTE (momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 4 2008, 03:08 AM) *
Yes, we know that most of you Christian men don't condone beating your wives in any way whatsoever. Don't worry.

Just picking on the Fundie mentality.

Disturbing what you can make out of those biblical verses isn't it ?

Maybe that is the test (assuming there is one) in that how you choose to use/interpret this book .

Just a thought

My fear is how people interpret it-but maybe I shouldn't interfere with gods plan (again assuming there is a plan-Daniellost said god has no plans)



God has a broad plan not one for you and me.
momentarylapseofreason
QUOTE (danielost @ Jul 4 2008, 10:04 AM) *
Yes man bread winner woman home maker. Does it have to be this way no. Is the woman answerable to the man yes because of the fruit.


Is the man supposed to lord it over her no. That is why God took a rib so they could walk side by side.


If god took a rib from Adam ,then why do man and woman have the exact same number of ribs ?

So god had to take a rib from Adam in order for them to walk side by side ? God is so innovative..............

What could Adam have gotten for an arm and a leg ? Five wives ? laugh.gif
danielost
QUOTE (momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 4 2008, 04:20 AM) *
If god took a rib from Adam ,then why do man and woman have the exact same number of ribs ?

So god had to take a rib from Adam in order for them to walk side by side ? God is so innovative..............

What could Adam have gotten for an arm and a leg ? Five wives ? laugh.gif




It did cost him an arm and a leg didn't it.
__Kratos__
QUOTE (danielost @ Jul 4 2008, 04:04 AM) *
Yes man bread winner woman home maker. Does it have to be this way no. Is the woman answerable to the man yes because of the fruit.


Is the man supposed to lord it over her no. That is why God took a rib so they could walk side by side.


Genesis 3:16
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

danielost
QUOTE (__Kratos__ @ Jul 4 2008, 04:36 AM) *
Genesis 3:16
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."



yes reread the first part of my post
__Kratos__
QUOTE (danielost @ Jul 4 2008, 04:39 AM) *
yes reread the first part of my post


I was referring to your "lord over her" part which according to the bible is what is to be done.
momentarylapseofreason
QUOTE (__Kratos__ @ Jul 4 2008, 08:00 AM) *
One reason that men abuse their wives is because women rebel against their husband's God-given authority, a Southern Baptist scholar said Sunday in a Texas church.

Bruce Ware, professor of Christian theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., said women desire to have their own way instead of submitting to their husbands because of sin.

"And husbands on their parts, because they're sinners, now respond to that threat to their authority either by being abusive, which is of course one of the ways men can respond when their authority is challenged--or, more commonly, to become passive, acquiescent, and simply not asserting the leadership they ought to as men in their homes and in churches," Ware said from the pulpit of Denton Bible Church in Denton, Texas.


In North Texas for a series of sermons at the church on "Biblical Manhood & Womanhood," Ware described his "complementarian" view as what "Southern Seminary as a whole represents."

Commenting on selected passages from the first three chapters of Genesis, Ware said Eve's curse in the Garden of Eden meant "her desire will be to have her way" instead of her obeying her husband, "because she's a sinner."

What that means to the man, Ware said, is: "He will have to rule, and because he's a sinner, this can happen in one of two ways. It can happen either through ruling that is abusive and oppressive--and of course we all know the horrors of that and the ugliness of that--but here's the other way in which he can respond when his authority is threatened. He can acquiesce. He can become passive. He can give up any responsibility that he thought he had to the leader in the relationship and just say 'OK dear,' 'Whatever you say dear,' 'Fine dear' and become a passive husband, because of sin."

Ware said God created men and women equally in God's image but for different roles.

"He has primary responsibility for the work and the labor and the toil that will provide for the family, that will sustain their family," he said. "He's the one in charge of leadership in the family, and that will become difficult, because of sin."

Ware also touched on a verse from First Timothy saying that women "shall be saved in childbearing," by noting that the word translated as "saved" always refers to eternal salvation.

"It means that a woman will demonstrate that she is in fact a Christian, that she has submitted to God's ways by affirming and embracing her God-designed identity as--for the most part, generally this is true--as wife and mother, rather than chafing against it, rather than bucking against it, rather than wanting to be a man, wanting to be in a man's position, wanting to teach and exercise authority over men," Ware said. "Rather than wanting that, she accepts and embraces who she is as woman, because she knows God and she knows his ways are right and good, so she is marked as a Christian by her submission to God and in that her acceptance of God's design for her as a woman."

More of the article here: Link

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow. mellow.gif I could be wrong here, but shouldn't believer males find better ways to express themselves rather then beating on a woman?



I just read this


That is so disturbing & disgusting

Am I supposed to have respect for this ?

And I'm supposed to tolerate something that doesn't tolerate me as a woman ? I don't think so !! angry.gif




danielost
QUOTE (__Kratos__ @ Jul 4 2008, 04:42 AM) *
I was referring to your "lord over her" part which according to the bible is what is to be done.



I said she was answerable to him. I think lording it over someone is not the same as answering to them. And no place in the bible does it say for the hubby to hit the wife


At least as far as I know.
__Kratos__
QUOTE (danielost @ Jul 4 2008, 04:45 AM) *
I said she was answerable to him. I think lording it over someone is not the same as answering to them. And no place in the bible does it say for the hubby to hit the wife


At least as far as I know.


Answering to him is still showing a clear dominate stance over her as her ruler.

I don't believe it does either. What he is talking about is the keeping of control of the leadership and keeping the roles that god laid out for them in check which leads to the abuse by design.
stargazer123
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Wow. mellow.gif I could be wrong here, but shouldn't believer males find better ways to express themselves rather then beating on a woman?
[/quote]

Kratos thank you for posting this!!! Now what I'm about to say in no way reflects upon the entire domination it is merely my own experience. It is so important that people know this stuff because there are so many women being abused and the church attempts to hide it. I was married to a devote southern baptist who physically and mentally abused me for years and used to quote the bible to me if I tried to stand up for myself. When I told the church what was happening they tried to counsel him and when he refused they swept it under the rug and later made him a teacher in the church. He later married a younger woman at that same church after he and I were divorced and they never bothered to tell her he has a history of domestic violence with two women. Now my children refer to her as "daddy's slave." Poor girl I feel terrible for her she is naive she doesn't have a clue and feels it her responsibility to be ordered around by her husband as this is what the church teaches in no uncertain terms.

The southern baptist convention basically holds the cards and makes the rules and any church following under them must follow the guidelines they voted on so basically they are telling the churches that they must teach that women are to submit to their husbands yet taking no real precautions for the men that use it to control and abuse their wives. In my case the church swept me under the rug like a dirty secret and tried to protect him from the community finding out the truth. Although I respect other's religions I cannot and will not respect the stance of women being inferior to men or any human being for that matter being shown as inferior to another.
danielost
QUOTE (__Kratos__ @ Jul 4 2008, 05:02 AM) *
Answering to him is still showing a clear dominate stance over her as her ruler.

I don't believe it does either. What he is talking about is the keeping of control of the leadership and keeping the roles that god laid out for them in check which leads to the abuse by design.




Mormons are taught that the lady answers to the man too, but they also teach to have respect of all ladies. Why because they are all devine by birth right. We are all children of God. I should say that we are taught that the husband has the final say in choices.
Watchful
QUOTE (momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 4 2008, 05:45 AM) *
I just read this


That is so disturbing & disgusting

Am I supposed to have respect for this ?

And I'm supposed to tolerate something that doesn't tolerate me as a woman ? I don't think so !! angry.gif

And I second that!! mad.gif


QUOTE (stargazer123 @ Jul 5 2008, 01:47 AM) *
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow. mellow.gif I could be wrong here, but shouldn't believer males find better ways to express themselves rather then beating on a woman?


Kratos thank you for posting this!!! Now what I'm about to say in no way reflects upon the entire domination it is merely my own experience. It is so important that people know this stuff because there are so many women being abused and the church attempts to hide it. I was married to a devote southern baptist who physically and mentally abused me for years and used to quote the bible to me if I tried to stand up for myself. When I told the church what was happening they tried to counsel him and when he refused they swept it under the rug and later made him a teacher in the church. He later married a younger woman at that same church after he and I were divorced and they never bothered to tell her he has a history of domestic violence with two women. Now my children refer to her as "daddy's slave." Poor girl I feel terrible for her she is naive she doesn't have a clue and feels it her responsibility to be ordered around by her husband as this is what the church teaches in no uncertain terms.

The southern baptist convention basically holds the cards and makes the rules and any church following under them must follow the guidelines they voted on so basically they are telling the churches that they must teach that women are to submit to their husbands yet taking no real precautions for the men that use it to control and abuse their wives. In my case the church swept me under the rug like a dirty secret and tried to protect him from the community finding out the truth. Although I respect other's religions I cannot and will not respect the stance of women being inferior to men or any human being for that matter being shown as inferior to another.



Thank you! YOu go, you go!


QUOTE (danielost @ Jul 5 2008, 08:27 PM) *
Mormons are taught that the lady answers to the man too, but they also teach to have respect of all ladies. Why because they are all devine by birth right. We are all children of God. I should say that we are taught that the husband has the final say in choices.
My own husband has proven, that this should never be a rule for anyone ever! When I have argued about something that should be done, and refused and I still gave in, the worse happens. Later, he finds out that I was right, and he says he's sorry, but the thing is, it's too late. If men always have to have the final say, we're screwed!
momentarylapseofreason
Can anyone tell me why god would want women to submit to their husbands ?

Why should men be the head of the household ?
momentarylapseofreason
QUOTE (Watchful @ Jul 6 2008, 07:05 AM) *
My own husband has proven, that this should never be a rule for anyone ever! When I have argued about something that should be done, and refused and I still gave in, the worse happens. Later, he finds out that I was right, and he says he's sorry, but the thing is, it's too late. If men always have to have the final say, we're screwed!


Same here. My husband is terrible with money and trusts practically everyone he runs into.

He thinks every ones intentions are benign just because they are friendly outwardly.
danielost
QUOTE (momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 6 2008, 12:41 AM) *
Can anyone tell me why god would want women to submit to their husbands ?

Why should men be the head of the household ?



According to the bible because of the fruit.


According to science because of size.


According to me I have to go with the bible. I should also state that I believe a man and a woman should try to make all decisions together.
danielost
QUOTE (momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 6 2008, 12:44 AM) *
Same here. My husband is terrible with money and trusts practically everyone he runs into.

He thinks every ones intentions are benign just because they are friendly outwardly.




I am terrible with money too because i usually only want enough for the day. So if I was married my wife would be in charge of the money. which would take care of your second problem. Not that I trust too many people I am just the oppisite which may be one reason I am not married. This I blame on my abusive father. However how I treat people I blame on me.
stargazer123
QUOTE (danielost @ Jul 5 2008, 08:27 PM) *
Mormons are taught that the lady answers to the man too, but they also teach to have respect of all ladies. Why because they are all devine by birth right. We are all children of God. I should say that we are taught that the husband has the final say in choices.


Well if we are all divine and children of God than it makes no sense why women must answer to men.
momentarylapseofreason
QUOTE (danielost @ Jul 6 2008, 08:07 AM) *
I am terrible with money too because i usually only want enough for the day. So if I was married my wife would be in charge of the money. which would take care of your second problem. Not that I trust too many people I am just the oppisite which may be one reason I am not married. This I blame on my abusive father. However how I treat people I blame on me.




My question is why does god want women to submit to men ?

I personally feel one shouldn't be dominant over the other

But in general MANY MORE men rape, start wars,are addicted to pornography, molest their own children, murder, cheat, are violent

So why should women submit to men ?
danielost
QUOTE (momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 6 2008, 01:24 AM) *
My question is why does god want women to submit to men ?

I personally feel one shouldn't be dominant over the other

But in general MANY MORE men rape, start wars,are addicted to pornography, molest their own children, murder, cheat, are violent

So why should women submit to men ?




I don't really buy these. One Margret thatcher was in charge when Britain declared war on Argentina. I have talked to a lot of women on the web who are into porn. A store manager in Vegas had it sitting on her coffee table. molest maybe not abuse yes they abuse their children like men do. Murder is a little easier for a woman to get out of. She only has to use the rape defense. Violent I have been attacked by as many women as men. The two differences is the women couldn't hurt me, and they usually carry a grudge. Where men usually get through the fight and get over it.


As for rape how many men are even going to admit that some woman raped them.
momentarylapseofreason
QUOTE (danielost @ Jul 6 2008, 08:33 AM) *
I don't really buy these. One Margret thatcher was in charge when Britain declared war on Argentina. I have talked to a lot of women on the web who are into porn. A store manager in Vegas had it sitting on her coffee table. molest maybe not abuse yes they abuse their children like men do. Murder is a little easier for a woman to get out of. She only has to use the rape defense. Violent I have been attacked by as many women as men. The two differences is the women couldn't hurt me, and they usually carry a grudge. Where men usually get through the fight and get over it.


As for rape how many men are even going to admit that some woman raped them.


Oh please.

Just look at the prison population.

Yes, women can be just as brutal as men but the statistics don't compare.

You still skirted the question.

Anyone know why women should submit ?
danielost
QUOTE (momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 6 2008, 01:41 AM) *
Oh please.

Just look at the prison population.

Yes, women can be just as brutal as men but the statistics don't compare.

You still skirted the question.

Anyone know why women should submit ?



I gave youi the only two valid reasons. But the real reason is probable because of tradition.
momentarylapseofreason
QUOTE (danielost @ Jul 6 2008, 08:44 AM) *
I gave youi the only two valid reasons. But the real reason is probable because of tradition.


That was a "fruity" answer.

It still demonstrates no logic for these days.

It possibly made sense a long time ago due to circumstances & culture of the time> but it makes absolutely "no sense" today> that a wife should submit to her husband.
__Kratos__
QUOTE (stargazer123 @ Jul 5 2008, 12:47 AM) *
Kratos thank you for posting this!!! Now what I'm about to say in no way reflects upon the entire domination it is merely my own experience. It is so important that people know this stuff because there are so many women being abused and the church attempts to hide it. I was married to a devote southern baptist who physically and mentally abused me for years and used to quote the bible to me if I tried to stand up for myself. When I told the church what was happening they tried to counsel him and when he refused they swept it under the rug and later made him a teacher in the church. He later married a younger woman at that same church after he and I were divorced and they never bothered to tell her he has a history of domestic violence with two women. Now my children refer to her as "daddy's slave." Poor girl I feel terrible for her she is naive she doesn't have a clue and feels it her responsibility to be ordered around by her husband as this is what the church teaches in no uncertain terms.

The southern baptist convention basically holds the cards and makes the rules and any church following under them must follow the guidelines they voted on so basically they are telling the churches that they must teach that women are to submit to their husbands yet taking no real precautions for the men that use it to control and abuse their wives. In my case the church swept me under the rug like a dirty secret and tried to protect him from the community finding out the truth. Although I respect other's religions I cannot and will not respect the stance of women being inferior to men or any human being for that matter being shown as inferior to another.


Wow, at least you escaped that life. Good on you thumbsup.gif


QUOTE (danielost @ Jul 6 2008, 01:05 AM) *
According to the bible because of the fruit.


According to science because of size.


According to me I have to go with the bible. I should also state that I believe a man and a woman should try to make all decisions together.


Science does not. There are many species that fall into 'reverse' roles. Because we are bigger and more aggressive it does make us likely more dominate but that is not always the case. There's also the fact that size doesn't equal to be everything because we are intelligent human beings with reasoning skills.

Though 'science' says that one of the reasons for males to be bigger is to protect his family from threats, not beat up a defenseless woman because you're weak minded.



danielost
QUOTE (momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 6 2008, 01:50 AM) *
That was a "fruity" answer.

It still demonstrates no logic for these days.

It possibly made sense a long time ago due to circumstances & culture of the time> but it makes absolutely "no sense" today> that a wife should submit to her husband.



And today most women don't. If NOW had their way there wouldn't be any marriages or babies. Except maybe those approved by the state.
danielost
QUOTE (__Kratos__ @ Jul 6 2008, 02:41 AM) *
Wow, at least you escaped that life. Good on you thumbsup.gif




Science does not. There are many species that fall into 'reverse' roles. Because we are bigger and more aggressive it does make us likely more dominate but that is not always the case. There's also the fact that size doesn't equal to be everything because we are intelligent human beings with reasoning skills.

Though 'science' says that one of the reasons for males to be bigger is to protect his family from threats, not beat up a defenseless woman because you're weak minded.



I didn't know that we were talking about other animals just humans. I agree with you any male that would beat up a defenseless woman is weak minded and that is being nice. There is only one reason in my point of view to hit a woman. That is if she has a knife or a gun pointed at you.
Watchful
QUOTE (danielost @ Jul 6 2008, 03:43 AM) *
And today most women don't. If NOW had their way there wouldn't be any marriages or babies. Except maybe those approved by the state.



So what is wrong of the non-existence of marriage? Babies can be made without marriage. I don't believe that marriage is really all that hardcore to really support what pro-marriage advacates say. I say, that marriage should not be an obligation that I still observe by so many and that women should be warned not to go into it, if they do not feel ready for it at all. EVen if means not getting married at all. I wonder what all the pro-marriage, women submit to their husband's, folks would say if we had all the bilboards saying don't get married if you cannot at all, be in a marriage if you can't handle it?!
randym23
what!? What!? WHAT!?

proof yet again that religion is just about social control.
(sigh)
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