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Guardsman Bass
New York Times

QUOTE
WASHINGTON — Senator Barack Obama has chosen Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware to be his running-mate, turning to a leading authority on foreign policy and a longtime Washington hand to fill out the Democratic ticket, people told of the decision said.

Mr. Obama’s selection ended a two-month search that was conducted almost entirely in secret. It reflected a critical strategic choice by Mr. Obama: To go with a running-mate who could reassure voters about gaps in his resume, rather than to pick someone who could deliver a state or reinforce Mr. Obama’s message of change.

Mr. Biden is the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and is familiar with foreign leaders and diplomats around the world. Although he initially voted to authorize the war in Iraq — Mr. Obama opposed it from the start — Mr. Biden became a persistent critic of President Bush’s policies in Iraq.

The selection was disclosed as Mr. Obama moves into a critical part of his campaign, preparing for the party’s four-day convention in Denver starting on Monday. Mr. Obama’s aides viewed the introduction of his vice presidential choice– including an afternoon rally Saturday at the old State Capitol in Springfield, Ill., the same place where Mr. Obama announced his candidacy on a freezing winter morning almost two years ago, and a tour of swing states – as the beginning of a week-long stretch in which Mr. Obama hopes to dominate the stage and position himself for the fall campaign.

Word of Mr. Obama’s decision leaked out hours before his campaign was scheduled to inform supporters via text and e-mail messages, and hours after informing two other top contenders for the vice presidential nomination – Senator Evan Bayh of Indiana and Gov. Tim Kaine of Virginia – that they had not been chosen.

As the selection process moved to an end, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York, who Mr. Obama had defeated in his bid for the Democratic presidential nomination, had slipped out of contention -- to the degree that Mr. Obama had ever seriously considered her.

Mr. Biden is Roman Catholic, giving him appeal to that important voting bloc, though he favors abortion rights. He was born in a working class family in Scranton, Pa., a swing state where he remains well-known. Mr. Biden is up for re-election to the Senate this year and he would presumably run simultaneously for both seats.

Mr. Biden is known for being both talkative and prone to making the kind of statements that get him in trouble. In 2007, when he was competing for Mr. Obama for the presidential nomination, he declared that Mr. Obama was “not yet ready” for the presidency, a line certain to show up in Republican attack ads.

Although Mr. Biden is not exactly a household name, he is probably the best known of all the Democrats who were in contention for the spot, given his political and personal history (not to mention his regular appearances on the Sunday morning television news shows.) He first ran for the Senate from Delaware when he was just 29 years old.

Mr. Biden has run twice for the presidency himself, once in 1988 and again in 2008, dropping out early in both cases. He was also the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee during two of the most contentious Supreme Court nomination battles of the past 50 years: the confirmation proceedings for Robert H. Bork, who was defeated, and Clarence Thomas, who was confirmed after an explosive hearing in which Anita Hill accused Mr. Thomas of sexual harassment. Mr. Biden led the opposition to both nominations, though he came under criticism from some feminists for not immediately disclosing what were at first Ms. Hill’s closed-door accusations against Mr. Thomas.

Mr. Obama’s choice of Mr. Biden suggested some of the weaknesses the Obama campaign is trying to address at a time when at a time when national polls suggest that his race with Senator John McCain, the presumptive Republican nominee, is tightening. Chief among Mr. Biden’s strengths is his familiarity with foreign policy and national security issues, highlighted just this past weekend with the invitation he received from the embattled president of Georgia, Mikheil Saakashvili, to visit Georgia in the midst of its tense faceoff with Russia. From the moment he dropped out of the presidential race, he had been mentioned as a potential Secretary of State should either Mr. Obama or Mrs. Clinton win the election.

He is also something of a fixture in Washington, and would bring to the campaign – and the White House – a familiarity with the way the city and Congress works that Mr. Obama can not match after his relatively short stint in Washington.

At 65 years old, he adds a few years and gray hair to a ticket that otherwise might seem a bit young (Mr. Obama is 47). He is, as Mr. Obama’s advisers were quick to argue, someone who appears by every measure prepared to take over as president, setting a standard that appears intended to at least somewhat hamstring Mr. McCain should he be tempted to go for a more adventurous choice for No. 2. He has a long history of making statements that get him in trouble. He was forced to apologize to Mr. Obama almost the moment he entered the race for president after he was quoted as describing Mr. Obama as “the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” a remark that drew criticism for being racially insensitive. While campaigning in New Hampshire, Mr. Biden said that ”you cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin’ Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent.”

Mr. Biden quit the presidential race this year after a barely making a mark; he came in fifth place in Iowa. He was forced to quit the 1988 presidential race in the face of accusations that he had plagiarized part of a speech from a Neil Kinnock, the British Labor Party leader. Shortly afterward, he was found to have suffered two aneurysms.

He is also, at least arguably, a Washington insider, having worked there for so long, though he still commutes home to Wilmington every night by train.

The choice by Mr. Obama in some ways mirrors the choice by Mr. Bush of Dick Cheney as his running mate in 2000; at 65, it appears unlikely that Mr. Biden would be in a position to run for president, should Mr. Obama win and serve two terms. Shorn of any remaining ambition to run for president on his own, he could find himself in a less complex political relationship with Mr. Obama than most vice president have with their presidents.

Mr. Biden was born in Scranton, , grew up in the suburbs of Wilmington, Del., and went to Syracuse Law School. He also was, as a young man, in the center of a gripping family drama: barely a month after he was elected to the Senate, his wife and their three children were in a car accident with a drunken driver resulted in the death of his wife and daughter. His two sons survived and Mr. Biden remarried five years later.
EmpressStarXVII
This really came as a surprise to me, but I am happy with his pick. Though, this just seals the for sure loss for the democrats this year....again. He's too liberal for the majority I think. Hopefully I'm wrong.
InHuman
The guy with the foot in his mouth?

Aww.

I was hoping for colbert, or rober downey Jr.'s black character from Tropic Thunder.

Meh its better then Mccain's running mate.... (his clone)...

Edit: Looking over some of his stuff, the only thing I'm worried about is that he supported (in some way) the patriot act?
BlindMessiah
QUOTE (InHuman @ Aug 23 2008, 08:05 AM) *
The guy with the foot in his mouth?

Aww.

I was hoping for colbert


Oddly enough Colbert, a comedian running for president as a jest to promote his show, got the same number of votes as Biden... says something about the VP pick. This pick of course officially tosses Clinton on the curb and thus swears John McCain in as president. I simply hope he doesn't pick some religious nut for his VP. I can't imagine anything worse than Romney being on the ticket.
IrishLexie
Pretty silly pick in my opinion. Joe Biden, the plagiarist. John McCain and his swift boaters will be throwing up ads of Biden stealing someone else's words, which will then make the American public wonder if what Biden says in the debates are really his own words. Plus, Biden comes off as a phony to me. I think he should have picked a candidate from a state the Republicans typically dominate, such as Evan Bayh of Indiana.
BlondiGeist
Me No Likey. no.gif
I don't see this turning out good at all for those of us who want someone other than an 'R' up in tha (White) House.
BlindMessiah
QUOTE (Blondigeist @ Aug 23 2008, 08:48 AM) *
Me No Likey. no.gif
I don't see this turning out good at all for those of us who want someone other than an 'R' up in tha (White) House.


I really don't understand why he didn't pick Hillary especially concerning his recent decline of support amongst white women.
ohio traveler
QUOTE (BlindMessiah @ Aug 23 2008, 04:59 AM) *
I really don't understand why he didn't pick Hillary especially concerning his recent decline of support amongst white women.


I agree. There are many Clinton supporters who simply will not vote for Obama now. But I think they don't like each other very well. Sort of like McCain and Romney. Same party but not on the same team. Deep down I think Hillary hopes Obama loses so she can jump right back into it in 2012.

Biden is a decent pick I suppose. He has some baggage but perhaps Obama, being of very little experience, chose to pick a vp with lots of experience to even things out. But the McCain camp will surely run wild with Biden's plagarism scandal of the past.
EmpressStarXVII
Analysis: Biden pick shows lack of confidence



By RON FOURNIER, Associated Press Writer 27 minutes ago

DENVER - The candidate of change went with the status quo.

In picking Sen. Joe Biden to be his running mate, Barack Obama sought to shore up his weakness — inexperience in office and on foreign policy — rather than underscore his strength as a new-generation candidate defying political conventions.

He picked a 35-year veteran of the Senate — the ultimate insider — rather than a candidate from outside Washington, such as Govs. Tim Kaine of Virginia or Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas; or from outside his party, such as Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska; or from outside the mostly white male club of vice presidential candidates. Hillary Rodham Clinton didn't even make his short list.

The picks say something profound about Obama: For all his self-confidence, the 47-year-old Illinois senator worried that he couldn't beat Republican John McCain without help from a seasoned politician willing to attack. The Biden selection is the next logistical step in an Obama campaign that has become more negative — a strategic decision that may be necessary but threatens to run counter to his image.

click click
IrishLexie
I'm not so sure the Clinton's could handle being second in command. Personally, I'd like to repeal the 22nd amendment and bring Bill back. He may have been a crook in some ways, but the economy was good (and please don't give me the technology boom Republican argument - it's easily debunk-able) and things were, generally, good.
BlindMessiah
QUOTE (ohio traveler @ Aug 23 2008, 09:23 AM) *
Deep down I think Hillary hopes Obama loses so she can jump right back into it in 2012.


I concur. Democrats will deny this, Republicans will claim this, but as one without a horse in the race, I do think she will work against Obama behind the scenes. She hasn't dedicated her entire life to becoming president, a dream she's had since college, so some dark horse can pop out of no where and take her claim as president.
BlindMessiah
QUOTE (IrishAidan @ Aug 23 2008, 09:52 AM) *
I'm not so sure the Clinton's could handle being second in command. Personally, I'd like to repeal the 22nd amendment and bring Bill back. He may have been a crook in some ways, but the economy was good (and please don't give me the technology boom Republican argument - it's easily debunk-able) and things were, generally, good.


Don't forget how important that amendment has become for our society. We are able to prevent emperors like FDR from ruling our country as a conquering dictator.
Lt_Ripley
I don't know ... going over a few liberal and center democrat papers/sites letter responses seem 90% upwards are favorable. Seems the ones that are having a hard time are t
the ones who are staunchly behind Clinton still.

here is a letter I think that has the favorable backing as to why -

Obama Shows That "A Man's Gotta Know His Limitations" by Choosing Biden
Choosing Joe Biden is nothing like choosing Dan Quayle or, for you old timers, Spiro Agnew.

Obama has pulled a heavyweight out of the box of potential running mates. And he chose the right one.

The two tactical advantages Obama gains with Biden at his side are:

1. Barack's Foreign Policy flank is no longer exposed. Biden eats McCain's (and Barack's) lunch when it comes to matters of Foreign and National Security Policy. The guy (Biden) was freakin consulted, but not necessarily listened to, by none other than George W. himself! Biden's expertise cannot be brushed aside by McCain and his Rovian advisers; in fact, I'd go as far as saying that some positive quotes regarding Biden's depth and breath of knowledge in these realms might be out there from people like both Bushes, Cheney, and perhaps Sen. McCain himself. If they are, it's up to Obama's minions to find those quotes.

2. Though extremely intelligent, Biden is not shy about verbally "shooting from the hip." It's quite obvious, and I say this not in any way as a criticism, Barack likes to think before he yaps. It's a good twosome. Joe Biden ain't gonna take any s___t from McRove...and he's going to give more than he takes, if necessary. And by doing so, he allows Obama to continue being Obama, pure and fresh as a pristine forest. Joe Biden is not Clinton/Bush slime; but his lack of the Obama refinement/genteelness, combined with his formidable knowledge, makes him the perfect complement to his boss.

A strategic advantage associated with the Biden choice is:

When he assumes office, President Obama will have at his beck and call a virtual treasure trove of knowledge in his Vice President.

And, finally, I like you, don't know Obama or Biden personally. We know what we read and see and hear in the media; that's all most of us can do. Joe Biden strikes me as the kind of man I sure would like by my side if I were about to embark on the superhuman task of being President of the United States.

The Biden choice is Obama's first presidential-caliber decison test. By buying into Biden, Barack has shown the world he's going to be adept at making the right call.

-- FredrickBernanke
[Read FredrickBernanke's other letters]Permalink Saturday, August 23, 2008 12:41 AM

http://letters.salon.com/politics/war_room.../view/?show=all
BlindMessiah
Ripley, you say the only people displeased with his pick is Clinton supports... he needs them to win this election.
Lt_Ripley
QUOTE (BlindMessiah @ Aug 23 2008, 06:33 AM) *
Ripley, you say the only people displeased with his pick is Clinton supports... he needs them to win this election.


It would be nice to have all of the but ........

it isn't all Clinton supporters. I am/was one. still am but like most will pull the lever for Obama. But there is a small amount of die hards yet still pulling. you have some that may be racist but plenty of republicans this year are voting independant or democrat so I think it about levels off. Plenty of republicans don't want a george the III.

I do think many are burnt out from the Clinton / Obama fight. Just need some breathing space. Aren't as gung ho , but will be when it counts. It's summer break !
BlindMessiah
QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Aug 23 2008, 10:44 AM) *
It would be nice to have all of the but ........

it isn't all Clinton supporters. I am/was one. still am but like most will pull the lever for Obama. But there is a small amount of die hards yet still pulling. you have some that may be racist but plenty of republicans this year are voting independant or democrat so I think it about levels off. Plenty of republicans don't want a george the III.

I do think many are burnt out from the Clinton / Obama fight. Just need some breathing space. Aren't as gung ho , but will be when it counts. It's summer break !


Well I don't want Bush the III, Obama or Clinton but I still feel that an Obama/Clinton ticket would have won. And now Bush the III will take office. McCain is struggling to keep his party united, if Obama had picked Clinton he would have one up on McCain. Now he doesn't. His situation is now in fact worse. McCain is struggling because of idealogical differences. All McCain has to do is patronize those people. Obama faces the same situation only, in my oppinion, he will have to deal with Clinton working against him.
Lt_Ripley
QUOTE (BlindMessiah @ Aug 23 2008, 07:01 AM) *
Well I don't want Bush the III, Obama or Clinton but I still feel that an Obama/Clinton ticket would have won. And now Bush the III will take office. McCain is struggling to keep his party united, if Obama had picked Clinton he would have one up on McCain. Now he doesn't. His situation is now in fact worse. McCain is struggling because of idealogical differences. All McCain has to do is patronize those people. Obama faces the same situation only, in my oppinion, he will have to deal with Clinton working against him.


I don't know. the christians aren't exactly in line with republicans now - and I think more dems are behind the dem ticket than against even with Hillary. She's thrown her weight behind him and will do so in Denver loudly.

the pros and cons of Biden from Time

...........Biden has been on the national stage so long that he was able to mount two credible runs for the presidency himself an amazing 20 years apart, in 1988 and 2008. He has served as chairman of both the Judiciary Committee and the Foreign Relations Committee, traveling the globe to meet world leaders and to be directly involved in almost every major international and domestic debate of the last two generations. He has excelled as both a speaker and a debater. His Irish-Catholic heritage makes him a demographic dream in appealing to swing voters. He is both a Washington insider and a hero to working-class Americans and labor union leaders, in part because of his rhetoric, but also because of his own middle class upbringing. He has mastered the art of the network Sunday show television appearance as well as the classic vice-presidential skill of savagely attacking his political opponents with both a smile and the use of casual, kitchen-table idioms.

Balanced against all of those unmatched qualifications is one quality that has afflicted Biden for as long as anyone can remember: a persistent tendency to say silly, offensive, and off-putting things. Over the next few days (and, likely, weeks) some of Biden's ungreatest hits of gab will be recycled by the media and Republicans aiming to take the luster off Obama's choice of running mate. The central mystery for those who have watched Biden over the years is this: how could someone so smart, experienced, and articulate be his own worst enemy by saying just the wrong thing at just the wrong moment?

Beyond the verbal gaffes during both of his presidential campaigns, Biden stunned his supporters, and delighted his opponents, during the Supreme Court confirmation hearings of John Robert and Sam Alito, President Bush's conservative nominees for the high court. In preparing for the public sessions, Biden's advisers warned him repeatedly not to let his verbose ways dominate the proceedings. Be crisp and clear and concise, they told him over and over during practice sessions. And yet when the lights and cameras were on, Biden was at his very worst — long-winded, self-involved, and off message.

Surely, as the Obama campaign unveils Biden to the world, they are little concerned about his ability to surmount the primary hurdle that any potential vice president must get over, that Biden is ready to be president from day one by virture of experience, temperament, and judgment. But the campaign will just as certainly be coaching him on his initial speeches and media appearances. Once again, Joe Biden will be told to keep it short and limit the use of the pronoun "I."

Those who know Biden well, who have watched him and worked with him over the years in the Senate and on the campaign trail, know two things with absolute certainty. One, it will be exceedingly difficult for Biden to carry out those instructions. And, two, if he is able to do as he is told regarding his renegade mouth, he will be a smash hit as Obama's running mate.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8...1835480,00.html
BlindMessiah
QUOTE
I don't know. the christians aren't exactly in line with republicans now - and I think more dems are behind the dem ticket than against even with Hillary. She's thrown her weight behind him and will do so in Denver loudly.


She needs three days to that?
Lt_Ripley
QUOTE (BlindMessiah @ Aug 23 2008, 07:29 AM) *
She needs three days to that?


she's done it before and will again . there are stragglers . yet the amount of republicans and christians that have crossed over make up for that amount easily.

McCain has already pounced on Obama's choice of Biden. Yet most republicans pouncing on Obama and his experience of foreign policy fail to remember that Obama has more experience in/ at it than Bush had running in 2000. so McCains argument is moot.

August 23rd, 2008
McCain camp calls Biden Obama’s ‘harshest critic’ on experience
Posted: 05:38 AM ET

(CNN) — Sen. John McCain’s campaign quickly reacted to word that Sen. Joe Biden would be Sen. Barack Obama’s running mate with a dig at Obama’s foreign policy credentials.

“There has been no harsher critic of Barack Obama’s lack of experience than Joe Biden,” McCain campaign spokesman Ben Porritt said in a written statement.

“Biden has denounced Barack Obama’s poor foreign policy judgment and has strongly argued in his own words what Americans are quickly realizing — that Barack Obama is not ready to be president.”

http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/23/mc...-on-experience/
Mr.Peabody
Biden is alright. I like Jim Webb , Clinton , Kathleen Sebelius . or even Chuck Hagel too. I think he picked fine.
AROCES
QUOTE (ohio traveler @ Aug 23 2008, 10:23 AM) *
I agree. There are many Clinton supporters who simply will not vote for Obama now. But I think they don't like each other very well. Sort of like McCain and Romney. Same party but not on the same team. Deep down I think Hillary hopes Obama loses so she can jump right back into it in 2012.

Precisely, and an Obama win will be all but over for Hillary for any Presidential shot.
How badly does the Clinton supporters wants her to be President really? Bad enough to not vote for Obama in the coming election to set up Hillary for 2012?
AROCES
QUOTE (IrishAidan @ Aug 23 2008, 10:52 AM) *
I'm not so sure the Clinton's could handle being second in command. Personally, I'd like to repeal the 22nd amendment and bring Bill back. He may have been a crook in some ways, but the economy was good (and please don't give me the technology boom Republican argument - it's easily debunk-able) and things were, generally, good.

We were in an economic reccesion or decline because of the DOTCOM burst on the last year of Bill, and the burst happened predictably for a lot of those DOTCOMS were in the red or were surviving thru venture capitalist funding. Do you understand what that means?
How can you debunk that???
Was it Bills' fault? No, it's just the cycle on an economy.
Can Bill bring back the same economic expansion? No!
Siara
It's good from the experience angle, which is Obama's weakest point. I thought he might go for Hillary or the guy from Virginia. I'm not sure Biden will pull more voters into the fold.

Biden's one of the obviously qualified people.

The Republicans can dig up some dirt on him but the Republicans can dig up dirt on anyone. Biden's good on women's issues, though some women are still so miffed about Hillary losing that they probably won't vote at all.
Startraveler
Biden's a working class, Irish Catholic, uber-experienced foreign policy guru, with grade A attack dog skills. Not a bad choice at all.
Guardsman Bass
QUOTE (Startraveler @ Aug 23 2008, 09:05 AM) *
Biden's a working class, Irish Catholic, uber-experienced foreign policy guru, with grade A attack dog skills. Not a bad choice at all.


Don't forget, too, that he comes from a Senate seat that is basically a formality at this point; the real election is the Democratic Primary. Democrats are trying to hang on to as many Senate seats as possible as well as winning 4-6 more, so at the very least, they'll get a freshman rookie in the seat if Obama wins this November (I'm assuming that Biden will simultaneously run for the Senate seat as well as Obama's candidacy, and then appoint a successor or let the Delaware governor do it).

As for his tendency to go on "gaffe", do you not think that Obama's campaign will be monitoring and watching this? Obama has been very careful about managing rallies and public appearances in most venues, and I imagine that before he picked Biden, he had a discussion about this.
Pinky Floyd
An excellent article from the Washington Post on why Obama should not have picked Biden..
QUOTE
The central tenet of Obama's campaign message is that if Americans want to change their government, then they have to change the people they send to Washington. Picking Biden, who has served in the Senate for the better part of the last four decades, seems to run counter to that core message.


There couldn't have been a worse pick for Obama. Seriously. Shunning Hilliary and all of her voters was a slap in the face and a political suicide on his part. He very narrowly won the nomination:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Obama/ Hilliary
TOTAL (w/o FL & MI - w/ caucuses and territories) 12,891,604/ 12,217,745
TOTAL (w/ FL&MI, w/caucuses) --------------------------- 13,460,645/ 13,403,104
TOTAL (w/o FL & MI - excludes caucuses)--------- 12,535,451/ 12,058,560
TOTAL (w/ FL & MI - excludes caucuses)------------ 13,104,492 / 13,243,919


If McCain doesn't screw up and put someone in there that is totally from outerspace, he's all but won the election..If he chooses Lieberman (he's hinting), it is over already (the conservatives/hardcore Republicans might be upset over this choice, but if he does-who they gonna vote for instead of McCain? They are kind of stuck with him and the hybrid ticket). Many moderate Dems will jump ship (many just out of spite over the blatant Hilliary dissing) and will go with the moderate Republican/Independent-xDemocrat hybrid ticket.

My question is that if Obama wants 'change' why did he pick someone that has been a DC barnacle for the last 40 years?? Kind of goes right against the 'change' in Washington that he has been harping over for months now.

/and I liked Obama too...
CosmicStar
Politicians are pawns--SOME and I emphasize some--are hummanists and actually care about us and the country..but the ones running this year--I don't believe they are.

I'm refusing to vote--I think this election is going to change NOTHING--and I'm usually an optimistic person--but in this case--it's really ****ing hard to be.
CosmicStar
We will never have a President who actually cares about the country and the people living in it..
And if we do--he will get assassinated..
glyndowers heir
God I need my glasses changing,

I could have sworn the title said Obama chooses Bin Laden as running mate! geek.gif
CosmicStar
Riight..

I saw Joe on Real Time with Bill Maher--he's not that bad of a guy..
Plainbob13
QUOTE (glyndowers heir @ Aug 23 2008, 03:06 PM) *
God I need my glasses changing,

I could have sworn the title said Obama chooses Bin Laden as running mate! geek.gif


So much for a president of change huh.
CosmicStar
QUOTE (Plainbob13 @ Aug 23 2008, 03:08 PM) *
So much for a president of change huh.

Sooo
Someone should give stats on Joe Biden so everyone can see what exactly this guy is about
Guardsman Bass
Hillary Clinton would have been a terrible choice. Aside from that fact that you'd really be getting two of them (Hillary and Bill), Hillary would spend half of the time feathering her nest for a 2012 run in case Obama loses. Biden, at least, doesn't need to do that; he's already getting long in the tooth, and he could always go back to his Senate seat if Obama loses. Besides, I suspect the power of the Hillary diehards is over-rated (just like Tim Kaine is vastly overrated as a VP choice, along with Evan Bayh and Sebellius, although I liked Sebellius).

Like Startraveler has pointed out, it's not just the foreign policy experience. Assuming Obama can keep Biden from making any outright stupid remarks, Biden is an excellent attack dog for Obama, and is very knowledgeable about congressional politics in general as well as international politics. Not to mention that he has a very compelling working-class story; he actually came from a working-class background.
Siara
QUOTE (Pinky Floyd @ Aug 23 2008, 08:35 PM) *
If McCain doesn't screw up and put someone in there that is totally from outerspace, he's all but won the election.

God, I hope not. It's ironic that I should say that because I actually like McCain quite a bit. The problem is that Bush has done such an appallingly horrible job that we need someone who's more opposite Bush than McCain is. Don't get me wrong... I like Obama (also Biden) and when I vote Democratic in the upcoming election, it won't be just an anti-Republican vote. But sometimes I can't help wondering why McCain wasn't elected instead of Bush. He's so much more intelligent and savvy about international politics. Why did the Republican party make such a stupid decision last time around?

I think Bush was elected because he was 'the kind of guy people would like to sit down and have a beer with'. Next time y'all go out for a beer look around the bar. You see any presidential material there? Of course, religious Americans all gave Bush a knee-jerk vote because he said "God", "Jesus", and "Bible" more than the other candidates. I guess we got what the general public deserved.
stevewinn
whats a running mate?
Startraveler
QUOTE (stevewinn @ Aug 23 2008, 04:27 PM) *
whats a running mate?


In terms of importance to the outcome of modern U.S. presidential elections? Nothing.
InHuman
QUOTE (stevewinn @ Aug 23 2008, 01:27 PM) *
whats a running mate?


You don't have the 3 legged races in the queen's country?
Guardsman Bass
QUOTE (stevewinn @ Aug 23 2008, 02:27 PM) *
whats a running mate?


It's a presidential candidate's choice for Vice President over here in America-land. More or less, it's a rather almost useless post in most cases, which is kind of sad; I really think the Vice President should take a very active role in promoting the President's goals in Congress, and should participate in an equivalent to Question Time.
Pinky Floyd
QUOTE (Guardsman Bass @ Aug 23 2008, 03:24 PM) *
Assuming Obama can keep Biden from making any outright stupid remarks,


He will need luck on that one...Biden is not as bad as he once was, but he is still somewhat of a loose cannon with the mouth..

QUOTE
ABC'S George Stephanopoulos asking Biden during a debate while he was still contesting Obama for the nomination: "You were asked, 'Is he ready?' You said, 'I think he can be ready but right now, I don't believe he is. The presidency is not something that lends itself to on-the-job training.'

"I think that I stand by the statement," Biden is shown replying.

"And what does he say about John McCain?" the announcer asks.

"I would be honored to run with or against blink.gif John McCain, because I think the country would be better off," Biden is shown replying .

Source

With or against? huh.gif What was he thinking? I'm not a political pro, but my guess is this ain't good. (This is damn near an endorsement for McCain over Barak-by Barak's VP choice!). OUCH...Guardy, I'm guessin' that this one does qualify as 'outright stupid'. Repubs will have a field day with just this one quote..(there are other gaffes to dissect as well..)
BlindMessiah
Obama is struggling with white women over 30, so he picks a man. He's percieved as an extreme liberal, so he picks a liberal. He says we need change, so he picks a man who has served in the senate for 36 years. Biden was carrying 2% of the states. Hillary was carrying 30% in every state. Hillary won every major state. 28% of democratic delegates wanted to see Hillary as the VP. 6% wanted to see Biden. Obama really doesn't seem to want to be president. His poll numbers have been declining and Clinton is exactly what he needed.

All McCain has do to is spit in the faces of the far right conservatives and pick Lieberman rather than Romney, and he'll be president. The far right fears Obama, and in the end will vote for McCain out of fear of Obama. Clinton supporters on the other hand will be looking at the option of a McCain/Lieberman ticket, and Clinton in 2012.

Which team do you think appeals more to moderates?
Guardsman Bass
QUOTE (BlindMessiah @ Aug 23 2008, 07:13 PM) *
Obama is struggling with white women over 30, so he picks a man.


Many of these women weren't going to support his candidacy anyways, and Biden at least has the "working class roots" on his side, plus a veritable legacy of legislative activity.

QUOTE
He's percieved as an extreme liberal, so he picks a liberal.


Obama was going to be called an "extreme liberal" by the Republicans regardless of who he picked, even if he had done a Unity Ticket. They do that to every candidate, even centrist ones like Bill Clinton.

QUOTE
He says we need change, so he picks a man who has served in the senate for 36 years.


You actually need to be able to pass legislation in the US in order for change to come about, and Biden will help immensely on that with his experience. Besides, Obama still has the ultimate say; Biden can only advise.

QUOTE
Biden was carrying 2% of the states.


That's Biden as a presidential candidate among Democrats. Biden as legislator is much more popular and talented.

QUOTE
Hillary was carrying 30% in every state. Hillary won every major state. 28% of democratic delegates wanted to see Hillary as the VP. 6% wanted to see Biden. Obama really doesn't seem to want to be president. His poll numbers have been declining and Clinton is exactly what he needed.


No, she's not. Although Biden has shot his mouth off in the past, that's better than what Hillary would have brought - a running mate whom you could never fully have the last say with, for fear of pissing off the mindless PUMA cultist crowd. She'd be feathering her nest the entire time as she was working with Obama.

Besides, citing current polling as an indication of how the election will turn out at this point is absolutely ridiculous. You have no idea of what might come up in the next three months, not to mention the effect Hillary Clinton might have as VP only. Then there's the whole "energize the Republicans again".

QUOTE
All McCain has do to is spit in the faces of the far right conservatives and pick Lieberman rather than Romney, and he'll be president. The far right fears Obama, and in the end will vote for McCain out of fear of Obama. Clinton supporters on the other hand will be looking at the option of a McCain/Lieberman ticket, and Clinton in 2012.


Oh, please. You think Clinton voters like Lieberman, the man who got re-elected by defecting from the Democratic Party then winning by saying he would caucus with them? That's not to mention that Lieberman will piss off more than merely the "far right" conservatives; Lieberman is pro-choice and generally Democratic on almost everything except foreign affairs.

Besides, I think the threat of a horde of Clinton voters flooding over to McCain is overrated. Clinton was going to lose many of these voters (the so-called Reagan "Democrats") anyways come the general election against McCain, and the diehard folks like PUMA who are threatening to vote for him managed to raise, what, a pathetic $50,000 as David Schuster pointed out in an interview with one of them?

QUOTE
Which team do you think appeals more to moderates?


Let's see. I can pick the inspiring Democratic black candidate who promises a better America and who will do it with the help of one of the most experienced and able legislators in Congress - or I can pick the war-mongering, temperamental old "maverick" who has spent the past 6 years coddling the people he once condemned who will fight with a man who once ran on the Democratic ticket with Al Gore back on 2000, and isn't exactly repentant about it. Tough choice. rolleyes.gif

On a side note, I don't know why so many of the Hillary cultists are rejoicing at the thought of McCain winning and Hillary running again in 2012, especially in light of the deep incompetence and lack of leadership that she showed in the 2008 Democratic primaries. Do they somehow think it will be easier to run against a Presidential incumbent with all the advantages that brings, leading a group of de-moralized Democrats after they had snatched defeat from the jaws of victory?
BlindMessiah
QUOTE (Guardsman Bass @ Aug 24 2008, 03:20 AM) *
Obama was going to be called an "extreme liberal" by the Republicans regardless of who he picked, even if he had done a Unity Ticket. They do that to every candidate, even centrist ones like Bill Clinton.

Yes, they would label anyone that. That is true. But I as a moderate also view him as fairly radical.

QUOTE
That's Biden as a presidential candidate among Democrats. Biden as legislator is much more popular and talented.

He may be more talented, but I wouldn't call him popular.

QUOTE
No, she's not. Although Biden has shot his mouth off in the past, that's better than what Hillary would have brought - a running mate whom you could never fully have the last say with, for fear of pissing off the mindless PUMA cultist crowd. She'd be feathering her nest the entire time as she was working with Obama.

That's a matter of oppinion. We'll have to wait and see how it turns out.

QUOTE
Besides, citing current polling as an indication of how the election will turn out at this point is absolutely ridiculous. You have no idea of what might come up in the next three months, not to mention the effect Hillary Clinton might have as VP only. Then there's the whole "energize the Republicans again".

Every republican I've spoken with has said they'd prefer Hillary in office over any of the other democratic candidates.

QUOTE
Oh, please. You think Clinton voters like Lieberman, the man who got re-elected by defecting from the Democratic Party then winning by saying he would caucus with them? That's not to mention that Lieberman will piss off more than merely the "far right" conservatives; Lieberman is pro-choice and generally Democratic on almost everything except foreign affairs.

Of course they don't like him. But who do you think they'll dislike more? Lieberman or Romney? I honestly don't believe the right will vote against McCain no matter who he picks. They'll just whine a lot.

QUOTE
Let's see. I can pick the inspiring Democratic black candidate who promises a better America and who will do it with the help of one of the most experienced and able legislators in Congress - or I can pick the war-mongering, temperamental old "maverick" who has spent the past 6 years coddling the people he once condemned who will fight with a man who once ran on the Democratic ticket with Al Gore back on 2000, and isn't exactly repentant about it. Tough choice. rolleyes.gif

Let's see. You're a liberal who supports Obama. You're looking at this through a rose colored glass. As a moderate myself I don't know who I'll vote for... neither party represents my views.

QUOTE
On a side note, I don't know why so many of the Hillary cultists are rejoicing at the thought of McCain winning and Hillary running again in 2012, especially in light of the deep incompetence and lack of leadership that she showed in the 2008 Democratic primaries. Do they somehow think it will be easier to run against a Presidential incumbent with all the advantages that brings, leading a group of de-moralized Democrats after they had snatched defeat from the jaws of victory?

I don't have the answer to that. I'm not a Clinton cultist.
Guardsman Bass
QUOTE (BlindMessiah @ Aug 23 2008, 08:32 PM) *
Yes, they would label anyone that. That is true. But I as a moderate also view him as fairly radical.


What's your definition of "political moderate"?

QUOTE
He may be more talented, but I wouldn't call him popular.


He's very popular in Delaware (admittedly not a factor), but also popular in Pennsylvania (witness the reception he received in Scranton when they heard the news).

QUOTE
That's a matter of oppinion. We'll have to wait and see how it turns out.


I don't think it is. Biden was a second- or third- tier candidate who almost certainly knew he was going to lose the primaries, and who is getting on the years anyways. Clinton is/was the second place candidate with a large following and strong ambitions to run again if possible. I think it is extremely likely that she would take steps during the Obama campaign to make sure she was well-positioned for the presidency in the future, and would be difficult to control precisely because of the above factors - Obama wouldn't be able to truly overrule her without facing political consequences, and he doesn't want a co-presidency.

QUOTE
Every republican I've spoken with has said they'd prefer Hillary in office over any of the other democratic candidates.


They say that now. Would they say that if she was on the ticket with Obama?

QUOTE
Of course they don't like him. But who do you think they'll dislike more? Lieberman or Romney? I honestly don't believe the right will vote against McCain no matter who he picks. They'll just whine a lot.


Lieberman, of course. Romney at least pretends to have Republican positions on things like abortion and the like - Lieberman doesn't even try. As for the Right, they don't need to vote "against" McCain come November; they simply have to stay home instead of being out there fighting for him, and the McCain campaign would suffer enormously (the recent Republican campaigns have heavily depended on the activism of Christian Right voters).

QUOTE
Let's see. You're a liberal who supports Obama. You're looking at this through a rose colored glass. As a moderate myself I don't know who I'll vote for... neither party represents my views.


Again, what are your views, and what is a "moderate" in your views? McCain is pretty conservative on almost every issue except immigration and the environment, the former of which he's shelved until further notice and the latter which seems to have been overridden by an intense desire to drill every and anywhere.

QUOTE
I don't have the answer to that. I'm not a Clinton cultist.


I wasn't calling you one, merely expressing an irritation I've had of late.
BlindMessiah
I personally feel McCain is far more liberal than he is currently acting. He seems to be pandering to the religious right at the moment.
Siara

Delaware is, interestingly, not a heavily taxed state. They don't have any sales tax, for example.

It's true that Biden has a big mouth, but that doesn't bother me too much. McCain has a big mouth too, and it doesn't bother me in McCain either.

It's interesting to hear that Biden is popular in Pennsylvania. Is Arlen Specter in the running for McCain's VP?
IrishLexie
QUOTE (Siara @ Aug 23 2008, 11:03 PM) *
Delaware is, interestingly, not a heavily taxed state. They don't have any sales tax, for example.

It's true that Biden has a big mouth, but that doesn't bother me too much. McCain has a big mouth too, and it doesn't bother me in McCain either.

It's interesting to hear that Biden is popular in Pennsylvania. Is Arlen Specter in the running for McCain's VP?



Arlen Specter, for example, is a Republican I actually like. And I don't know if he is or isn't. I know the dude from Florida was being considered. I don't care who he picks, short of Christ, I'm not voting for him. And I'm not like some ardent liberals who don't give McCain any credit whatsoever. If McCain had stuck to his guns and not started his smear campaign, I might have considered him. I think he is a hero for what he did in Vietnam, refusing to leave his men behind. I honestly would have considered voting for him, but not now. He's become what he supposedly despised.




BlindMessiah
I define myself as a moderate. These are my views.

War: War is sometimes required, but is evil. I was originally against the Iraq war but I feel we now have a moral obligation to stay because of how our so called president has screwed things up.

Gay marriage: Completely for the legalization of gay marriage.

Energy: I think we should heavily invest in alternatives while currently turning to nuclear. Serious research funds should be aquired for finding uses for nuclear waste or at least a safe way to dispose of the waste.

Abortion: Abortion should be outlawed after the 5th month of conception. It is roughly around this time that the brain becomes active and is thus alive. It's a happy comprimise for the pro-life advocates and the pro-choice advocates. In addition measures should be taken to encourage the use of birth control and should be made readily available in the school system.

Civil liberties: I'm a huge advocate for civil liberties and limited government. Free speech is the most important factor in any thriving society. Political correctness of the left and religious oppression by the right have resulted in less and less freedom for our citizens. I despise President Bush and former president FDR for the power they assumed in the name of national defense. The United States is not a monarchy. I would like to see the presidents powers limited and the patriot act abolished.

Taxes: I support an even percentile for all incomes. Huckabee's plan would be fine with me as well.

NATO: I'm heavily against NATO as I am a large advocate of national sovereignty.

Illegal Immigration: They should be given a pathway to citizen ship as it would be inhumane in my oppinion to remove them. Programs need to be instituted to help them adapt to our society. All schools should require Spanish and English to be thoroughly taught.

Those are my stands. If I left out any issues you are curious about let me know. Am I moderate? You be the judge.
IrishLexie
Where I Stand On The Issues:



Foriegn Policy:


I am completely against the Iraq war, but I'm not a pacifist. Clearly I wish to avoid war, but sometimes, unfortunately, it is necessary. I believe America should stand up for those who are unable to stand for themselves, which is why I completely agree with intervening in Darfur. We should not allow human rights violations - period.

Free Trade:

I'm on the fence here. Free Trade allows American companies to ship jobs overseas then import the goods made by foreign hands for free. No tariffs, nothing. This is a problem. I don't think American companies should be allowed to do this.

Immigration:


I'm against illegal immigration, but those here should be allowed to stay.

Energy & Oil:

We have the technology to completely rid the nation of anything running off oil. We've had the technology for years. The car companies need to climb out of the pockets of oil companies.

Gun Control:

I believe people should be allowed to own weapons. It's a Constitutional right.

Drugs:

Legalize all drugs. It's not the governments right to tell me what I can put into my body.

Environment:

I'm an environmentalist.

Taxes:

I think the government needs to get rid of some taxes and fees. I'd like to get rid of the income tax and replace it with a national sales tax.

Welfare:

I am completely for welfare. We cannot disregard the squalor, and we certainly cannot allow people to go hungry or to live in unheated flats.

Gay Marriage:

No problem with it whatsoever.

Abortion:


Outlaw abortion entirely.

If I forgot anything, just ask.

I don't know what you'd classify me as. Pretty liberal, I guess, except for on a few issues.
stevewinn
QUOTE (InHuman @ Aug 23 2008, 09:31 PM) *
You don't have the 3 legged races in the queen's country?


No, when it comes to politics we have the Donkey Derby, grin2.gif

QUOTE (Guardsman Bass @ Aug 23 2008, 09:36 PM) *
It's a presidential candidate's choice for Vice President over here in America-land. More or less, it's a rather almost useless post in most cases, which is kind of sad; I really think the Vice President should take a very active role in promoting the President's goals in Congress, and should participate in an equivalent to Question Time.


thanks for the reply,

Am worried for America because what I've seen of McCain and Barrack they both look like poor candidates, its a shame really that out of the whole USofA these are your best two, maybe its a sign of the times, but when either of these get into office i feel it wont be god bless America, it'll be more like god help America, i hope am wrong and most probably am,
Guardsman Bass
QUOTE (BlindMessiah @ Aug 24 2008, 12:14 AM) *
I define myself as a moderate. These are my views.

War: War is sometimes required, but is evil. I was originally against the Iraq war but I feel we now have a moral obligation to stay because of how our so called president has screwed things up.

Gay marriage: Completely for the legalization of gay marriage.

Energy: I think we should heavily invest in alternatives while currently turning to nuclear. Serious research funds should be aquired for finding uses for nuclear waste or at least a safe way to dispose of the waste.

Abortion: Abortion should be outlawed after the 5th month of conception. It is roughly around this time that the brain becomes active and is thus alive. It's a happy comprimise for the pro-life advocates and the pro-choice advocates. In addition measures should be taken to encourage the use of birth control and should be made readily available in the school system.

Civil liberties: I'm a huge advocate for civil liberties and limited government. Free speech is the most important factor in any thriving society. Political correctness of the left and religious oppression by the right have resulted in less and less freedom for our citizens. I despise President Bush and former president FDR for the power they assumed in the name of national defense. The United States is not a monarchy. I would like to see the presidents powers limited and the patriot act abolished.


I actually support an equivalent of all of these positions. You may be more left-leaning than you think you are.

QUOTE
Taxes: I support an even percentile for all incomes. Huckabee's plan would be fine with me as well.


I don't necessarily agree with this, because I think that different taxation levels on different levels of income can be beneficial to society and a government.

QUOTE
NATO: I'm heavily against NATO as I am a large advocate of national sovereignty


Although I generally support national sovereignty, you have to keep in mind that it is eroding not merely by government choice but by technological advance and the like. We simply live in a much smaller world these days in terms of communication and transportation, and that means that unless a major war breaks out to disrupt all of the above (like it did to the Globalization pre-1914), the traditional nation-state is going to lose some of its power both to smaller level groups (be they ethnic groups or what not) and higher level organizations (not the UN, but things like multinational corporations, the IMF, World Bank).

NATO is basically a fossilized organization at this point that helps keep Western Europe in our orbit. I'd be in favor of revising it around a new purpose, and including Russia as well.

QUOTE
Illegal Immigration: They should be given a pathway to citizen ship as it would be inhumane in my oppinion to remove them. Programs need to be instituted to help them adapt to our society. All schools should require Spanish and English to be thoroughly taught.


You probably could not do Spanish specifically as a second language from early age and schooling, but a foreign language, period, would be helpful (I think that most parents would probably choose Spanish, but it would leave it up to them). At the same time, we might as well simply make English an official language - it won't kill us, and it will ease some of the ethnic tension.

QUOTE
Those are my stands. If I left out any issues you are curious about let me know. Am I moderate? You be the judge.


You seem like a left-leaning libertarian, although it's hard to tell since you didn't offer positions on any of the issues that generally separate left-leaning libertarians from left-leaners/Social Democrats in general (like health care, welfare, and so forth).
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