Greetings all!

I hope this is the proper place to post this considering this is the sub-forum for Myths and Legends. Currently I am working on a story. I am in the process of researching various cultural deities, as they have a major role in my epic. At this point my main research focus is on the Sumerian god Enlil.

Along my research I have stumbled upon the JoS (Joy of Satan) website. In one of their pages devoted to the demon "Beelzebub" they claim that he is also the Sumerian god Enlil. Now whilst attempting to verify this claim I have stumbled across many who dismiss most if not all of the information held within the JoS website. I suppose what I am asking is if there are any who could verify or dismiss this claim in any way.

If there are any who do not feel comfortable posting a response to this thread, please I encourage all to PM or e-mail ( quinnquin@msn.com ) me.


^.^ Thank you ^.^

The short answer is yes. And No.

Eh, this is a problematic topic, for it depends on the level you mean it.

Were they similar enough to be interchangeable among cultures extant at the time? Yes. In this sense, one could say they were the same, like some say Allah and YHWH are both references for the same Creator Being.

However, different cultures were the source for each of these deity names, and their early development. An adequate reference that helps to clarify this is Python: A Study of Delphic Myth and Its Origins By Joseph Fontenrose. (Published by Biblo & Tannen Publishers, 1974, ISBN 081960285X, 780819602855, 616 pages). You can find this online through google books.

On page 157, it states: "It was Hadad whom Syrians and Canaanites called "Baal", the title which in the form "Bel" the Babylonians gave to Enlil and Marduk..." so, no, they're not the same.

But, there is a distinction, always, between history and religion. They run, oftentimes, on different "truths".

c

Thank you very much, Caveira. That was very informative.


Though if possible, I am very interested in the opinions of those experienced in the various forms of spirit communication ie. invocation, and evocation. If there are any experienced mediums, I would gladly absorb your input!

You're very welcome.



Ah, sorry, I thought you asked:

You had that from the JoS site already, yes? They deal with it in context of religion, and consider them the same. In their rites, they do practise invokation and also evokation, and it is my understanding they claim that the being said this was true it/himself.

I don't consider these to be "demons", as that is a Christianization and overlay, which has been done over the evolution of religious thought by victors since the beginning of ... spiritual seeking and wars, I suppose. You may have better luck bouncing this off one of the religiously inclined parts of this forum. The topic of the morphology of entities is rather encyclopedic, theoretical and relative. Every homemade cult out there has their own truths.

But, in any case, enjoy.

c

I think a better forum for this may be the Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs. Many of the people who frequent that sub-forum are very versed in ancient gods, modern doctrines and whether one name can be substituted for another.

My own belief is that Enlil was the name of a Mesopotamian god and that it is not the same as Beelzebub. I'm hardly an expert however. It has been my observation that almost all ancient gods were later demonized by the early church in order to strengthen the idea that converts should not backslide into older religions. So, in that way I think linking the two names is really just propaganda.

Once more, I thank you all for your helpful information.

And DieChecker, I do very much agree with the concept of the Christian church demonizing the gods of others to further their own ideals. This would be a main reason for why I am trying to strengthen intel on the core deities which I am selecting for my story.

Caveira, once again I am grateful for your input. As for requesting "spiritualist" details, I figured asking such a question would be appropriate for this Myths/Legends section as I felt the other "spiritually-inclined" boards of this forum are mostly frequented by those too Christian to give me answers which I could find useful.

Though on the subject of boards which are "spiritually-inclined," would anyone be able to point me in the direction of any good ones?

My own upcoming book features Enlil as a major character, and whether Christians like it or not, this is simply the earlier name of a Judao Christian deity. There can be no doubt of this, because the Genesis stories are merely a retelling of the Sumerian ones. But as another poster has pointed out, this is probably more of a 'sprituality' forum topic, unless you take the ancient Sumerian hymns at face value that describe him as a dragon, just like most of the earliest so-called deities around the world. The myths and legends part of the title of this forum, refers to cryptic or ANIMALS that appear in myths and legands.

If huge reptilian entities as are ancestors universally recoginized as thier dieties actually exist, and have abilities that have kept them alive to this day, they are probably the reptile like cryptids seen and reported all over the world, but are always able to elude scientific scurtiny, as any self-respecting deity ought to be able to do.

Enlil was a Sumerian deity.
he is not Beelzebub.

Ba'al Zebub was a deity worshiped in the Philistine city of Ekron. (in modern Israel)


for the sake of a good story you could do what some other writers here have done, and that is make tenuous and speculative links to draw your own 'truth' and present that as fact....as all good fiction is.

so you could say that enlil abandoned his people.....or accompanied them west, his name changing over time.



There is actual evidence you could use to link Enlil and one Baal; Baal Hadad. This is where Enlil gets drawn into the Jewish religion, being the god who caused the flood, fighting the leviathan etc...he's the strict, vengeful god of the OT...or at least many of his stories and attributes were carried over.


But since Baal meant lord, not all are the same....you could take the line that all are manifestations of the one Baal.....and so derivative of Enlil.
You could say that he preferred to be called Lord, instead of being on first-name terms with his subjects.

the possibilities are endless....you could even go as far as to claim that they were all dragons!!!!
absurd i know, but an interesting fiction.




so
both yes and no.
in a strict sense that separates the two cultures, no.
in a more accommodating sense that sees the Sumerian culture as a 'root' culture which greatly influenced those of the levant.....yes.......a bit.....possibly.