We also VOTED in our Governments, if you know what I mean?

I added this because they are all part of this movement towards secularism and socialism. Everyone's equal, no one is less no is greater. i'm sorry, but there are absolute truths in the world (i.e. natural law). And just because you voted in the socialists doesnt mean they are not communists, just means that you've been misled into what their message really is.

Don't know how it is there in Britain, but over here, it's the left wingers who are trying to eliminate God from our schools, courts, pledge of allegiance, etc. See, socialism in itself though, is communism. To have all social classes on a moral and economically even playing field, it's just not right. You're tied down to that and cant move up or down, you're just stuck. No one can advance, no one can become successful, whats that teaching you. Social programs for the unemployed allows them to stay in their current situations and be lazy, not feel the need to work because the government takes care of them, ergo, the government is controlling their lifestyle. The feminists, they are completely communists (difference between a feminist who wants basic civil liberties to vote, to earn wages etc., and a woman who is not as qualified as a man to do a certain job but is given the job and more or same amount of money because she is a women, don't know if it happens in the UK but it happens plenty over here, i've seen it), they want to be equal to men in all aspects, no matter what, military, sports etc....sorry but natural law has a different aspect in mind.

Communism and socialism are destroying our freedoms to think and express ourselves individually. They are also invading our privacies by making everyone on the same playing field no matter what decisions those people have made, socialists want them still to be equal to those who have made better decisions for themselves. And yes you're right, Bush is right wing conservative, not as much as many conservatives would like him to though (i.e. the US' patriot act after 9/11 lost lots of privacy for American citizens.)

I apologize, i didnt realize you were from Scotland, replace Britain with Scotland and you get the picture

wow, that's interesting....see, communism is a utopian dream, but human nature can not ever handle a gov't like that becuase greed, power, etc. get in the way.

As for the democrats, here in the US, the ideologies theyve been spouting for the past 2-3 years has sounded much like the things politicians used to say in Communist Poland, scary really.

Sorry, call me a pessemist, but communism will not ever work to be a utopia because mankind doesnt have it in him to live in a "perfect society" we're too HUMAN

No communism is about power to the people, you are again confusing what happened in the old eastern bloc to what the real ideals of communism are, we have already told you that there is no conspiracy in europe, we all want left wing governments.

I agree...ironic that we're the ones being told we're being decieved and/or brainwashed

and by the way, i think it is 50/50 in america on left vs right wing politics, so i dont think americans are afraid of left wing politics although i do believe we should be very cautious of them.

So is forcing Atheism on people, and that's what happened in the Soviet Union or any other Communist country. And all this just because Marx said that "Religion is the opium of the masses".
Anyhow, I once heared a saying regarding Social-Democrats anf Communists/Socialists (the Soviets called themselves Socialists not Communists, BTW):
"Social-Democracts are Communists that understood that Communism and collective economy doesn't work, so as to not admit in their failour, they named fixed Capitalism as Social-Democratism. There is nothing Socialistic about Social-Democtatism."

I totally agree, people should be given a basic understanding of as many faiths as possible, including the fact that some people do not beleive in a deity.

At maturity they can then decide for themselves...

I used religion in schools as an example of secularism coming into our society here, not as a religious issue. You are correct, forcing a religion (by which of course this country was founded, but i guess thats not important) is wrong and by the way, God is a general term. God can be money, God can be sex, God can be the Christian God, God can be the Muslim God, so to have the word God stricken out of every possible public text is insane. And before you call church goers "arrogant high and mighty moral icons" why dont you realize the argument here... Communism and its secularist ways are streaming into this country. That was my original statement, excuse me for using bad examples in trying to support it, but i believe that this should NOT be a debate on political ideologies, but a simple fact... COMMUNISM CONTROLLED THE MASSES FOR THE WORSE in the eastern bloc... my FATHER experienced it, he had guns taken to his head because he was part of the Solidarity movement and for no reason was black balled and persecuted heavily. Communists killed millions of russians, poles, czechs, ukranians, and middle easterners (not to take away from the jews in what they suffered but the Communists did almost as much as the nazis) and you're sitting here arguing that having religion in schools is control and censorship... sorry but look what happened to a country (russia) that took all religion out of the public and pushed it into the private only... COMMUNISM does not work and there IS A CONSPIRACY to bring it back because it DEMORALIZES the masses and takes away any sense of freedom... Russia better off now that communism and "socio-economics" were at work? ask yourself that. And dont give me the argument that they just didn't implement the "ideology" behind communism in the right way, because if it dont work in practice you can't call it that on paper!

Just to note, they weren't communists, they were Stalinists and your comparision to the Nazis isn't that bad, as Stalinism is occassionally referred to as State-Fascism as is National Socialism. Needless to say the only socialist aspect either had was nationalisation of the economy under Stalin, or the semi-welfare state under Hitler. However in all other aspects they were fascists.

When Marx wrote of the ideology he did so when Cpitalism (a right-wing ideology) was in full force. Under capitalism only the rich had a say in politics or any rights, workers were mere slaves.

So Marx wrote other three new ideologies for the masses. Technically since he beleived in revolution cummunism would come about quickly, however he did see the first two as transactory, if short lived, government systems. Since the revolution never happened Neo-Marxists tend to put more emphasis on the first two, saying that the transactionalist stages may last decades or hundreds of years before we reach communism.

1. Social Democracy - Basically the democracy set up under the capitalists only been taken over by the masses so their is universal voting. Remember that when the right created voting it was limited to those with wealth and land. Marx did not really have this as its own form of system as he saw it an aspect of communism (Marxism was the first ideology which actually wanted universal voting rights). Neo-Marxists see it as the current stage of European Democracies were NHS systems have appeared, universal voting, welfair, and power over the economy no long means you are given more rights. It obviously questionable if we've reached the last part, but still the system repressents an end to the class system, which we are gradually seeing in some areas. In absense of revolution this came about throughconstant pressure from Trade Unions.

2. Socialism - Basically an advanced form of the above were all classes have merged and all people are considered equal. At this stage the government (as the repressentives of the people) has nationalised the economy under it for the benifit of all citizens under its society, and the managerial posistions in labour are contolled by committees of employee representatives. Economy is then geared to providing the population with their needs, and while materialistic objectives are met, it is not longer done as a competition or to waste. Without revolution this is achieved by the voting in of left-wing parties by the workers with newly gained voing rights from the last stage.

3. Communism - Think the Federation in Star Trek with all their lovy-dovy peace, love and strive to better ourselves. This society can only exist after socialism. In this society people have learned from socialism to work together to better society and their communitees, and forfet materialistic greed, as such money has been abandoned and people are trusted to take possessions on the basis of there requirements rather than gllutton (by that I mean, go into a store and take what you need, not everything on the shelf because it no longer costs anything leaving nothing for everyone else). By this society with no money, and the economy working together rather than internatal fighting amongst employers at the expense of their workers, everyone is equal with no economic poor or rich.

The claim that the left-wing ideology removes freedoms is wrong, it gives them, basic rights such as the vote are founded on Marx's and early leftists works. Although Marx didn't beleive in word individual rulling, but rather an elected group of leaders headed by a chairman who was the head of state.




Now that I cleared that up lets go back to the conspiricy aspect. I was at the local Scottish Socialist Party meeting and I'm happy to announce 'Opertation InsuREDsion' is going smoothly. 90% of European leaders have been replaced with clones who will begin launching socialist acts within the year after Bush is successfully defeated in the US election by the brillantly disguised shaved monkey we plan to put in his place as a puppet-leader.


Insert before and after election poster:

Needless to say that Jews were too persecuted under Communist regimes.
The Nazis might killed us physically, but the Soviet Union killed the Ashkenazic culture (at least what left of it after the Nazis).

The problem is that Communism never manifested itself differently from how it did in Russia (or China, or Cuba, or North Korea, or Baathism etc.).
I keep hearing that what happened in Russia was not Communism, but Stalinsm/Leninsm/Bolshevism/Sovietism etc., but the truth is that Communism never happened in any other form. This is a proof that Communism doesn't work, or atleast whenever it is tried it is truned into Fascist regime that kills millions. The victims of Communism to this day are 100 million. And to be unest, the Soviets didn't call their regime "Communist" but "Socialist".
Anyway, Communism/Socialism can't work with Democracy. Marx himself talk about the "Dictatorship of the Prolotarion". The collective economy of Communism/Socialism doesn't allow free market, which is one of the most important aspects of Democracy.
As for Social-Democracy, as I said earlier, there is nothing Socialistic about that (and I myself support Social-Democratic economy).

I totally agree. But you should also agree that Capitalism/Free economy changed. The last to reform their free-economy were the Americans after the Great Depression of 1929. Since then, no Democracy has such harsh form of Capitalism as was common in the 19th century.

I agree, this is a really pointless topic, started by someone who has simply bought into the 'US is being eroded by pinko, liberal, homosexual, peaceniks' theory for the state of America today.

precisely my point from the begining, funny how you guys dont see the point... the point is, YES you voted in socialists, YES you agree with their "ideology" but the CONSPIRACY is that you have been handed on a platter to you a "repackaged" communist ideology. I don't understand why you cant look at the tenets of both ideologies and not see the same thing (ONCE AGAIN, im talking bout the actual practice of communism in russia, china, cuba etc., not the "perfect utopia ideology" of communism). You SOCIALISTS have not reached the level of extreme that Russia got to, but you will get there if you continue voting socialists in. Read a book by Michael Savage called "the Savage Nation." Perfect explanation of all of this.

Funny, homosexual marriages begining to happen, peace protests every time the "right-wingers" want to go into military action (although when bill clinton went into bosnia, nobody protested, hmm), socialist democrats starting to come into the political circle, and all these: Liberal Ideology

Indeed, but nobody had as of yet stated the dif between Socialism and
Communism, so I did

I don't mind tommy sheridan going on proestes against nuclear weapons etc, but I can't stand his support of Asylum seekers getting housing and money over our homeless. And his support of the Camp X-ray terrorists comming back to Britain scares me, their terrorists let America keep them in jail.

Anyway... you know I'm an SNP voter, the fact that I mentioned the SSP in the same para as clones, monkeys and revolution should imply my thoughts on them. Particualry when they have an MP Rose Kain, who doesn't show up for committee meetings, is proud to have only read 5 books in her 45 years of life, and was voted into office on the election campaign she would make the word NED illegal.

Yep traitor, we should have given him a flight over to Iraq and let him go join his buddy Saddam just before we started bombing

Actually one of the reasons Hitler hated the Soviet Union so much was because it had one of the largest Jewish populations in Asia and because many leading Bolsheviks were Jews.

Correction, communism never happened in any form, Marx wa turning in his grave over Lenin and Stalin

Actually its the prolotariate, which means Working Class, i.e. the majority of the population. But if you read his major works his 'dictatorship' reads a lot like democracy. Dictatorship simply means to rule by dictation, it is perfectly acceptable for a elected government to be refered to as a dictatorship for the duration of its rule. The negative element of not getting rid of dictatrs only comes into Marx as in the Working classes rule of the country can't be removed.

Indeed, through the actions of left-wing groups such as the Charists or Trade Unions getting the vote and then the people voting in parties to give them the things they want, as the majority of the population vote in (over here at least) parties which put controls on free-market capitalism. Capitalism only changed because of left wing pressure, in the UK the vote was only extended to all men because they feared a Communist Revolution and felt it wa the only way to stop it.



As for going back to the topic, its not a conspiracy, its simply the natural course of democracy to evolve into more left-wing establishments.

Homosexual marriages? Thought you right-wingers would be pleased about monogamous relationships?

Peace protests? It's called living in a democracy mate, people being allowed to voice their dissent.

Bosnia? I think this was sanctioned by the UN (you remember them, there the ones Bush & Blair ignored before starting their illegal war and who they now want to come and bail them out).

Hitler saw WW2 as a War against the Jews and what he considered to be "their" way to rule the world (Communism and Socialism). Because Marx, the founder of the Communist ideology, was a Jew, Hitler saw Communism as a Jewish-thing (ofcourse the fact that there were many Jews in the Bolshevik party even made him think that he is more right in his thought).
In the begining, when the Communists were in the opposition in Russia, the Jews, as an oppressed nation, were welcomed (and ofcourse the fact that Marx was a Jew even made them popular. Remember that in the opposition it is much easier to be idealistic than when you rule).
But after the Communists took over in Russia, they treated the Jews as badly as they treated other nations. Stalin himself said that "the Jews are a nation without a future". Ofcourse anti-semitism became illigal in Russia, but so did Judaism, like any other religion. Remeber that Judaism is a nationalistic religion, not universal one (as Christianity is or to some degree Islam). So to ban Judaism is like banning part of the Jewish identity as a nation.

Ofcourse now it is very easy to say that the regime in the Soviet Union wasn't Communism and that all the communist parties in from the 19th century to 1990 were wrong, just because you saw the failed. But the truth is that if you were a Socialist in the 50s or 60s, you would not hesitate to see the USSR and all the Communist organiztions (including the "International") as communism in practice. It is anachronoligcall to say today that those were not really communist regimes, while back then everyone saw them as such.

Actually its proletariat, from Latin proles (offspring), and ofcourse it means working class.
But Communism is about a revolution, where the Proletarians violently taking the means of production from the hands of the Bourgeoisie (owner class).
A dictatorship is a government headed by a dictator or more generally any authoritarian or totalitarian government. This is the modern meaning of this term, and it had the same meaning in the time of Marx.
Marx so the Bourgeoisie as enemies of what he considered the Proletarian majority, and so he wanted to eliminate them and to oppress them.

I won't be so sure about that. Bismarck is considered to be the father of welfare economy, and I won't consider him to be a Communist or even a Socialist. The Social-Democrats, which grew out of Communist parties in the German Empire (the Second Reich), were Communists that understood that a violent revolution isn't going to work, but instead they should improve the working but not so compelling Capitalist ecomony.

As Democracy evolved in time, and gave voting rights to minorities and women, so did the free-economy, which is one of the most important aspect of Democracy.

thread. I agree.

And I'm sure you'll now say I'm part of the communist conspiracy as well.

Oh well.