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Venomshocker
This post will be primarly to discuss the empirical and geological evidence of a worldwide flood dated too 7640B.C. This is a new theory that has recently been published and needs too be scrutinized.

Noah's Flood did happen, albeit differently than most people think it happened. The following passage is from The Book Of Enoch, who was forewarned about the flood. The passage is a dialogue between Enoch and the Angel Uriel about the coming flood.(From Chapter XXI, verse 3)

"There, too, I beheld seven stars of heaven bound in it together, like great mountains, and like a blazing fire. I exclaimed, For what species of crime have they been bound,..."

Now think, what does 7 blazing fiery mountains in the heavens seem like??? Quite possibly comets. In the book "Uriel's Machine, The Prehistoric technology that survived the Flood" the authors Christopher Knight & Robert Lomas detail an incident in 7640 B.C. where a 7 part comet indeed did hit the earth. Now 71% of the earth is covered by water, and 7 comets all hitting oceans simultaneously would indeed have caused a MASSIVE worldwide flood. In chapter 3 & 4 of their book the authors detail an astonishing amount of geological evidence for just such a flood. Everything from nitric acid levels in ice core samples, tektites, magnetic disturbances of comets hitting the earth, various species going extinct and also the formation of various salt lakes.(Evidence on pg.2 of this thread.) Finally the flood story can be put to rest, and even be dated!!
QUOTE
....evidence from the archaeoligical record which shows that over 10,000 species became extinct at the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary, which generally dated to circa 10,000 years ago, dated the worldwide Flood to 7640B.C.

The quote comes from the book Uriels Machine pg.58
The above quote was refrenced too:
QUOTE
Dubrovo, L: 'The Pleistocene Elephants of Siberia', Megafauna and Man, University of Flagstaff,1990,pp.1-8

The bible details that it rained and the fountains of the deep opened up. When the comets hit the oceans, massive amounts of water would have spewed into the air, and would have caused rain for days on end. It would also have caused massive Tsunami waves too FLOOD the land. It is possible that the tsunami waves would have been going 640mph, at 5km high. This easily could have topped the highest mountains. That would explain the fountains of the deep opening up. And since Noah's Ark was quite a bit inland, the Ark would have rose slowly, instead of being broken apart had it been closer to shore.

If you really want all the detail I suggest you go to your local bookstore and read it for yourself. Theres way more scientific evidence, I just dont have time too list it all. If anybody wants I have some of the info scanned in, I can send it to you, just msg me. original.gif
cerberus
Very interesting idea there.

It's possible it could have happened.

Venomshocker
I should add this also.
Now for the dilemma of fitting all the animals on the Ark. It is quite feasible that, only baby animals would have come unto the ark. This would have allowed for much more room than if fully grown elephants and giraffes came on. And as we all know babys dont eat as much as fully grown animals do, allowing for even more free room. Also Id go as far as saying, that all animals that can lay eggs, could have come unto the ark, laid thier eggs and walked off, leaving behind a male and female egg, of all egg laying species, even further freeing up room on the ark. Personally I believe its quite feasible that an enormous amount of baby animals could have been saved.I dont believe Noah went and collected them all. I believe God led them to the ark, in a magical kinda way. No I have no scientific explanation for this.

I also came across a site, where this guy claims the ark was easily large enough to hold all the different animals.
QUOTE
The capacity of the ark was about 522 railroad cars, (1.4 million cubic feet). Only 188 railroad cars would be required to hold a pair of each of the 17,600 species of animals presently known to man, according to Dr. John Morris of the Institute of Creation Research. (This number of cars includes food supplies for a year's subsistence).
dezavala
Hmm, sounds cool. But I still don't think Noah could have got 2 of EVERY animal on that ark.
PsychicPenguin
QUOTE
evidence from the archaeoligical record which shows that over 10,000 species became extinct at the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary


QUOTE
Only 188 railroad cars would be required to hold a pair of each of the 17,600 species of animals presently known to man, according to Dr. John Morris of the Institute of Creation Research.


These two statements show that the theory is flawed. Either the extinction has nothing to do with the flood, or Noah didn't save every single species. And Dr. John Morris of the ICR???? 17,600 species of animals presently known to man... well... apparently ur professor has no idea about how many knwon species is out there. laugh.gif

Anyway I always believe that there was something happened arround 10,000 BCE, and some possibility of global flood. It will explain the flood myth that can be found all around the world, also the fact that world civilizations started about 4000BCE while our species has beed arround for 100,000 years. However the biblical account of Noah was definitely blown out of proportion.
wunarmdscissor
Venom shocker

In relation to noahs flood, i would urge you to research the ancient Sumerian story of the "epic of gilgamesh" , it was wriiten long long before noah's version and there is much proof to tell us that this was the true root of the noah story.

Its very intersting reading and tehre is much scientific evidence to believe that an extensive but localised massive flood wouldve taken place at the time of the sumerians.
cos_mic_kid
Flood + Noad www site >>>>

Check out the link, also read up on the writings of Zacheria Stichin for further info. He actually translated stone tablets from Sumerian culture stating that Noah was instructed to build a submarine (ark) in order to save man kind. Find his books for more info.
Althalus
To add just a bit to this,

The Epic of Gilgamesh and the Noah story, both come from roughly the same area in geographical location, yes they are from different periods but one was quite possibly a reinterpretation of the other, with bits added.


QUOTE
there is no geological evidence of a world flood.  No diluvial deposit exists containing the remains of the whole human race drowned at one time, and there is insufficient water on earth to cover 'all the high mountains' (including everest) to the biblically claimed depth of about 7 metres.

exploring the unknown, reader's digest, 1995

There is evidence of a flood in the region of the Black Sea that was caused by a mass melting of the ice sheets that were at one point covering much of the area at that time.

QUOTE
Maritime explorer Bob Ballard is combing the floor of the Black Sea in search of the remains of ancient dwellings, which would buttress a new theory that a cataclysmic flood struck the region some 7,000 years ago—swelling the sea and eventually becoming the basis of the Noah story.


http://www.nationalgeographic.com/blacksea/search.html

Here is a link to a side by side comparison of the noah and gilgamesh flood stories, it's about half way down the page:

Link

For more information here is more onformation on flood myths from the world over:

Link 2
wunarmdscissor
Wasnt that what i just said althas/????? tongue.gif
Althalus
Yes, I just backed it up a bit for you.
Venomshocker
Yes I have read the epic of gilgamesh and alot of the other flood accounts across virtually every culture on the face of the planet. It is interesting to note that even all the world religons retain something to do with this specific catastrophe. Its as if all world religons stem from seemingly one source. Now determining which source all these flood legends stem form is pretty hard to determine. That the summerian version of the flood story is older than the biblical account can not be proven. Yes I'll agree the tablets are older than our curretn biblical versions, but you also have to keep in mind that the biblical version was an oral account for thousands of years, so theoreticaly the biblical account 'could/might' be older than the summerian account contrary to what Sitchin says. And yes I have read Sitchin's books.

QUOTE
there is no geological evidence of a world flood.  No diluvial deposit exists containing the remains of the whole human race drowned at one time, and there is insufficient water on earth to cover 'all the high mountains' (including everest) to the biblically claimed depth of about 7 metres.
exploring the unknown, reader's digest, 1995


The above quote does not relate to what I stated in the first post. IF the flood was caused purely by rain ONLY, then yes theres definately not enough water to cover the tops of the mountains. You have to get the picture of it raining, and then the water rising above the mountains out of your head!!!

Im saying the flood was NOT CAUSED by rain, it was CAUSED BY COMETS hitting oceans which created TSUNAMI waves which then FLOODED the land. You have to think about the flood story differently.

Yes I wont deny theres local flooding, at that time, in fact there many books written about that. But the thing is the geological evidence supports the theory there was one WORLDWIDE flood, not local in any way. Maritime explorer Bob Ballard is looking in the wrong place too prove a flood. There is a ton of geological evidence for a worldwide flood, if you want more I can send it to you, or go read the book.

PsychicPenguin, I believe Noah did get all the animals onto, the ark, but mayby some died on the ark, and also mayby some died once they got off, because there wasnt much food around. Only the strongest survived, and those are the ones that have more or less remained to this day. Also the mass extinction dosent refer too whether those were land species or water species also. Ocean Impacts could anhilate quite a few fish species also.
Krissa
QUOTE
The capacity of the ark was about 522 railroad cars, (1.4 million cubic feet). Only 188 railroad cars would be required to hold a pair of each of the 17,600 species of animals presently known to man, according to Dr. John Morris of the Institute of Creation Research. (This number of cars includes food supplies for a year's subsistence).


You are also forgetting about the possiblity that there are new species on earth since the Great Flood event (evolution) which would allow Noah to take less animals on the ark to begin with because there were fewer species to begin with. Maybe the majority of the species present now evolved from the animals taken onto the ark.
WorkMonkey
QUOTE (Krissa @ Apr 15 2004, 05:38 PM)

You are also forgetting about the possiblity that there are new species on earth since the Great Flood event (evolution) which would allow Noah to take less animals on the ark to begin with because there were fewer species to begin with. Maybe the majority of the species present now evolved from the animals taken onto the ark.

Are you still realistically trying to suggest that the a phenominally huge ship was built...by one guy and his family several thousand years ago when ships were built for shallow water fishing, and not trans-atlantic ferrying that could hold 2 of every animal? Taking into account he'd have to travel to the Artic, the Antartic, and the rest of the world for specialist species and that just bescause you have a male and female of a species, doesn't mean they will mate, or be fertile.
PsychicPenguin
QUOTE
PsychicPenguin, I believe Noah did get all the animals onto, the ark, but mayby some died on the ark, and also mayby some died once they got off, because there wasnt much food around. Only the strongest survived, and those are the ones that have more or less remained to this day. Also the mass extinction dosent refer too whether those were land species or water species also. Ocean Impacts could anhilate quite a few fish species also.


umm... NO... the mass extinction refer to land animals. Just search arround google. And the extinct species happened to be the strongest ones such as the Irish Elk and the Wolly Mammoth and Rhinoceroes. I think they were too large so Noah could not fit them into the Ark tongue.gif laugh.gif
snuffypuffer
Did he take bugs? Or snakes? What if Noah was afraid of spiders? Would he have swallowed his pride and taken the crawly things as well? And how do you tell a male spider from a female spider if you're not an entomologist? And I agree with dude's point, did he travel the world to pick up two of every species? Eh, I like pie.
WorkMonkey
QUOTE (snuffypuffer @ Apr 15 2004, 06:30 PM)
Did he take bugs? Or snakes? What if Noah was afraid of spiders? Would he have swallowed his pride and taken the crawly things as well? And how do you tell a male spider from a female spider if you're not an entomologist? And I agree with dude's point, did he travel the world to pick up two of every species? Eh, I like pie.

And how did he deal with rats? take two rats withen a few months the place would be infested with them, how would you store enough food for everything? how would you restrain a lion? what would you keep insects in? how would you stop bees or flies from flying away?
the list goes on.

ps.
No "god did it" replies.
snuffypuffer
QUOTE (WorkMonkey @ Apr 15 2004, 06:33 PM)

And how did he deal with rats? take two rats withen a few months the place would be infested with them, how would you store enough food for everything? how would you restrain a lion? what would you keep insects in? how would you stop bees or flies from flying away?
the list goes on.

ps.
No "god did it" replies.

And what about all the waste? Wouldn't the ark be a big stinking hole after a few days? If you had to open a window, wouldn't all the birds get away?

Maybe Noah was the world's first zookeeper.
sarkypi
QUOTE (snuffypuffer @ Apr 15 2004, 12:30 PM)
Did he take bugs?

QUOTE
However, if God in His wisdom had decided not to preserve some ocean creatures, this was none of Noah’s business. Noah did not need to take plants either - many could have survived as seeds, and others could have survived on floating mats of vegetation. Many insects and other invertebrates were small enough to have survived on these mats as well. The Flood wiped out all land animals which breathed through nostrils except those on the Ark (Genesis 7:22). Insects do not breathe through nostrils but through tiny tubes in their exterior skeleton.
Venomshocker
Good link sarkypi. Thanks alot. thumbsup.gif
snuffypuffer
I was just gonna say that disgust.gif
The Proposer
I read a book by a creationist scientist a few years ago called "the myth of evolution" he stated that there is evidence for 800 great floods, tracing back the biblical account of Noah it is directly linked to the nursery rhyme old lady who swallowed a fly,thus I presume if he took just a few of thes ladies he could quite easily accomodate numerous species,but I dont know why...............

Edit, combined posts
Venomshocker
Since no ones msg'd me for evidence, im gonna post as much as I can since there are some people out there that believe it was just localized flooding.
All quotes and diagrams from the book Uriel's Machine by Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas.
QUOTE
The paper that Jack Miller sent to us was authored by Edith and Alexander Tollmann, a husband-and-wife team of geologists based at the Institute of Geology at Vienna University, Austria. They have compiled some very significant information which they believe demonstrates that the Earth was indeed hit by a comet in the Holocene Period, around 10,000 years ago. Refrence:Tollmann, E. and A.: Terra Nova, 6, pp.209-217, 1994

Evedince #1
QUOTE

They looked first at the distribution of small glassy objects called tektites, which are found scattered in S-shaped patterns over large parts of the earth's surface. These smooth stones are chemically similar to some types of commonly occurring igneous rock, but they have always posed a puzzle to geologists because they appear in sites where the bedrock is not the same as the tektite composition. The other characteristic of tektites is their irregular  but rounded shapes, which suggests that they have been formed by molten rock being ejected into the atmosphere and then freezing into flattened and rounded spheres. It has recently been generally recognized that they are remnants of high energy cometary impacts on the Earth, and many are very old.In 1970, tektites were found embedded in fossilized wood in Australia which was carbon dated and found to have an age of 9,520 plus or minus 200 years BP .19 The Tollmanns also noted that the tektite scatter over Vietnam had been dated using stratigraphic methods to about the same age. This dating had been confirmed when tektites were found in seabed cores taken from sediment layers in the Indian Ocean known to be approximately 10,000 years old. Refrence:
Prasad, N. Sh. and Rao, P.S.: 'Tektites Far and Wide', Nature, 1990,347, pp.340 AND Izokh, E.P.: 'Age-paradox and the Origin of Tektites,' Sec. Int. Conf. Nat. Glasses, Charles University, Prague, 1987, pp.379-384

Evedince#2
QUOTE
They reasoned that a cometary impact would always have the effect of destroying large chunks of the ozone layer, and the Flood comet would have been no exception. Looking at the radiocarbon calibration curve produced by Kromer and Becker, the Tollman's were struck by the pronounced peak in radiocarbon which occurred 9,500 years BP. This could only have been caused by a massive destruction of the ozone layer, such as one. would expect from a comet impact.Refrence:Kromer, B. and Becker, B.: 'Tree Ring Carbon 14 Calibration at 10,000 BP,' Proc. NATO Advanced Research Workshop, Erice, 1990

user posted image
Evidence#3
QUOTE
The descriptions of 'bloody rainfall', which occur in many of the Flood legends around the world, seemed to the Tollmanns to be a perfect description of the impact-generated nitric acid formed from nitrogen burnt by the energy of the impact. Records of acid build-up in the atmosphere are available from ancient ice sheets at the polar regions, and in 1980 an experiment was carried out on a series of ice cores dating back 9,890 years from the perma-ice at Camp Century in north-west Greenland. A marine impact of a high energy comet fragment produces large quantities of acid, both hydrochloric and sulphuric, from the sea water, but in addition, vast amounts of nitric acid are formed from the burning up of the nitrogen in the atmosphere during the passage of the comet. Looking at the graphs showing nitric acid concentration in the layers of the ice cores, the Tollmanns saw a enormous peak occurring. The Tollmann's had another piece of evidence that pointed to a very serious cometary impact in 7640 BC.

user posted image
The suposed landing sites of the 7-part comet.
user posted image

There is still more sceintific evidence, of a WORLDWIDE FLOOD at 7640B.C.I dont wanna put it all up here,this is fairly long already. Like I said I have most of the info scanned in, so if anybody needs more info, and refrences just, msg me. original.gif
Kellalor
Very interesting!

thumbsup.gif
vimjams
Maybe Noah had a smaller ship and took onboard the (genetic code) of every living species (?)
Vimjams
devil.gif
PsychicPenguin
Very .. very nice Venom thumbsup.gif

Evidence 1 is really interesting, as well as evidence 3. Evidence 2.. uhm.. yes there is a sudden rise.. but it happens all the time throughout the data, and the uncertainty seems high. I wonder how the map was constructed.

If there was a global flood, it explains a lot of things.
1. Flood myths all arround the world.
2. Atlantis and Lemuria.
3. Who built the sphynx?
4. The begining (or start over?) of civilization arround 4000BC.

Off course, Noah ark as an exact account is still a physical impossibility wink2.gif
Venomshocker
QUOTE
Noah ark as an exact account is still a physical impossibility


And why is that?
PsychicPenguin
QUOTE (Venomshocker @ Apr 23 2004, 05:19 AM)
QUOTE
Noah ark as an exact account is still a physical impossibility


And why is that?

Because God did it tongue.gif
STIX
Aliens either created us or enslaved us as a slave race previous to 7640 BCE for mining purpouses and when they were done with us they decided it would be best to wipe clean any trace of them being on our planet including the slaves (humans) so they hurled some rocks at us from outer space with the exact trajectory calculated to hit the earth on various oceans in order to cause a massive flood.
Fortunatley for us the alien race had opposing views to this action so some of them warned the slaves of what was going to happen and instructed them to build a ship (ark), also giving them the knowledge how.

it could happen
bathory
a global flood occuring doesn't really validate the divine aspect of the story
PsychicPenguin
QUOTE (bathory @ Apr 23 2004, 10:27 PM)
a global flood occuring doesn't really validate the divine aspect of the story

Correct.

But again, we always say that "evolution does not disprove God."

You willl never be able to prove a divine intervention. This is the 1st law of religious debate.
The Proposer
QUOTE (PsychicPenguin @ Apr 23 2004, 04:16 AM)
Very .. very nice Venom thumbsup.gif

Evidence 1 is really interesting, as well as evidence 3. Evidence 2.. uhm.. yes there is a sudden rise.. but it happens all the time throughout the data, and the uncertainty seems high. I wonder how the map was constructed.

If there was a global flood, it explains a lot of things.
1. Flood myths all arround the world.
2. Atlantis and Lemuria.
3. Who built the sphynx?
4. The begining (or start over?) of civilization arround 4000BC.

Off course, Noah ark as an exact account is still a physical impossibility wink2.gif

The Tardis could be based on the ark,and we are only just realising the quantum aspects of the universe,God obviously knew this when giving his plans to Noah.
PsychicPenguin
Proposer... what the heck are you talking about??? huh.gif
The Proposer
oh sorry ypou probabaly dont get Dr Who if you are in America.

the ark could have used quantum mechanics to fit nore animals into a smaller space than we can understand original.gif
Venomshocker
There is no need for quantum mechanics to fit all the animals into the ark. It was big enough the way it was.
Kellalor
How did all the animals fit on Noah’s Ark?

Yes, Noah did build an Ark! —response to the BBC article ‘Did Noah really build an Ark?’
nickma71
The flood also explains lost civilizations, cities emptied with out an obvious reason(war, burned etc.). Extinct animals that could not survive post flood earth. The Bible teaches us that the earth changed to the point that man now needs to eat meat to get all of the needed nutrition, where before hand it wasnt needed.

Atlantis...
Dinosaurs....
Wooly Mammoth...
PsychicPenguin
Err.. extinction of many animal species also tells use that the biblical account of Noah ark is not exact wink2.gif
Venomshocker
Not at all. Many species could have died on the ark. And also many species could have died when they came off the ark, simply because there was not enough food. This could account for all the animals that went extinct around that time.
bathory
Anti-Flood Arguement
Venomshocker
Bathory that article really dosent relate to this topic at all. That article is aimed at young earth creationists who believe the earth is only 6000 years old, and the flood accounts for virtually all fossils, including dinosaurs.Young earth creationists commonly believe that Noah's flood happened between 4000BC and 3000BC. The thing is theres no geological eveidence for a worldwide flood at that time.

The fact that the geological evidence points to a worldwide flood at 7640B.C. already invalidates the stance of the young earth creationists.

bathory
it also argues against points relating to animals survival of the flood as well as puts forward some interesting geological points

hmmm
are there any studies regarding this 7640BC flood? when i google it, in only get references to Uriels Machine (your source) and posts by you...
Venomshocker
Sure.
If you google: Edith and Alexander Tollmann, you'll find lots of refrences to their work. They are the ones that have compiled most of the evidence for the worldwide flood.

In the book Uriel's Machine, there are also multiple refrences to researchers who report apparent 'anomolies' in the geological record, dated to circa.7000-8000BC that can rationaly be explained by a worldwide flood. So there are alot more studies and geological evidence.
stillcrazy
Hate to break it to every one, but according to the bible, Noah took more than two of each animal, there were three couples plus one.

Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Because the clean were for sacrifice to God; and therefore, in honor to him, more of them were preserved, three couples for breeding, and the odd seventh for sacrifice.
bathory
heh Stillcrazy, is that even worth arguing? especially when they will happily butcher all the species into kinds just so they can try and fit them onto a big old floating log:)
stillcrazy
Without trying to offend anyone's beliefs, I only posted the information as I kept seeing too many folks misquoting the bible.

Opinion is one thing, but have facts to justify your opinion.

As for my beliefs, they are just that, my beliefs.

(Note: Genisis 7:2 was quoted from Websters Bible, but was cross checked with twenty three other versions and all state the same verse.)

If interested in downloading free bibles and other Christian related bible material.

Web Site.

This link is posted for research purposes only and not an endorsement by me or the good folks here at UM.

If the Admins or Mods feel the link is not politically correct, feel free to remove it and ban me for a few days.

If your going to quote, do it with style.
Kellalor
QUOTE (stillcrazy @ Apr 25 2004, 02:24 AM)


Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.


This is refering to the clean animals for sacrifice. Of course he would take more than just 1 pair of each of clean animal for sacrifice or there wouldn't be any left to reproduce.
wildcard890
they found noahs arc in some moutain...im pretty sure they did at least. And there are animals that could of evolved so he technically wouldn't of taken 2 of every animal or he mighta took 2 of everyanimal that lied at that time and they just evolved into what they are now...vthink about that 1
Kellalor
No matter where you live, if you haven’t already heard about it, the promoters and the media have been making sure you will. What then is the massive boat-shaped formation which rests at 6,300 feet above sea level in Eastern Turkey, about 12–15 miles (15–24 kilometres) from the summit of Greater Mount Ararat?

The Main Claims at a Glance
True/False?
Radar shows man-made (boat) structure..........FALSE
There is a regular metallic pattern............FALSE
Lab tests show petrified laminated wood........FALSE
Turkish scientists found metal rods............FALSE
Metal artefacts have been proved by lab........FALSE
There are 'ship's ribs' showing................FALSE
There is lots of petrified wood................FALSE
Turkish Commission says 'it's a boat...........FALSE

Amazing ‘Ark’ Exposé — Could this be Noah’s Ark?
PsychicPenguin
OK.. so the thing on Mt. Ararat is not the Noah Ark... but I have another theory...

What If....

The original Noah Ark story was written to explain the Mt. Ararat formation??
Venomshocker
Genesis 8:4 says that the Ark landed on 'the mountains of Ararat', not specifying this particular mountain. There are other mountains in the region with traditions of being the Ark's resting place.
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