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saucy
Everything written in the bible is true. At least most of the new testament (including Jesus Christ) can and has been proven historically, scientifically, and archeologically (probably misspelled that one). I don't like the fact that people tell me I'm biased when I'm actually not. I spent my whole life being biased when I believed evolution over creation. Non-religous people need to look more at the Christian religion before coming up with their answers. No, I can't assure everyone where they go or not, but sinning does not get you into hell. Everyone is born a sinner. Moses was a murderer and God chose him to write the first five books in the bible. The other writers were adulterers, rapists, incests and anything else you can think of. God knows nobody here is perfect and he made us all that way. We just have to realize what the truth is and what's not. I know the bible is the truth. A thousand years before Jesus was born, prophets fortold his coming down to every last detail. Where he would be born, who his mother was, that his mother was a virgin, how he would live, what he would do, how he would die and the miracles he would do. I wish athiests would look at this proof before their eyes before coming to conclusions because not believing is a sure ticket into hell. Now look at it from the evolutionary side. I've posted all this before, but you cannot turn nothing into something. Nothing cannot suddenly explode into matter. A cell on the newly formed planet earth cannot just suddenly appear and start evolving. A single cell cannot evolve into plants, animals, insects, birds, reptiles and every other life form on this planet. The universe looks well designed and a designer should be the scientific default, not coincidence and believe me, evolution had to have been a gigantically huge, damn near impossibility. Archeology proves the bible right each and every single time. Look it up and tell me what you think
aquatus1
As long as you are not claiming that creationism is a science, I have absolutely no problem with anything that you just said.
saucy
creationism is not a science
Kellalor
QUOTE (saucy @ Apr 21 2004, 12:24 PM)
Look it up and tell me what you think

thumbsup.gif

I like you. grin2.gif
Venomshocker
and whyis creationism not a science?
saucy
creationism is a belief and maybe a religion. All science is is a bunch of hypothesis and theories. I like you too Kellalor
Venomshocker
Creationism does have scientific evidence to support it.
Lack of proof of speciation is evidence for creationism.
Lack of good transitional fossils is evidence for creationism.
By means of scientific reduction you can get evidence for creationism.
Sure seems scientific too me.

Druidus
QUOTE
creationism is a belief and maybe a religion. All science is is a bunch of hypothesis and theories.


lol. You obviously had trouble with science in school. Let me put it this way:

SO IS RELIGION!!!!

There is no REAL proof that any religion is correct. Science is a belief as well. Now don't get me wrong though. I am very religious, to my own Gods.

QUOTE
Lack of good transitional fossils is evidence for creationism.


Do you know how hard it is for a fossil to be formed, let alone found?!?!?!? It's DAMN hard!

Actually, spontaneous life creation could happen. I believe that the Gods set up this universe and watched it grow. They put a whole lot of matter in a really small space, watched it explode, and viewed as life appeared over the aeons. Evolution is part of the Gods plans, I honestly don't see why there is still controversey over it when fast evolving creatures like bacteria evolve almost every year. We have proven in laboratories that evolution occurs very quickly in viruses. That's how we get new and different flus every now and then. Spontaneous life would occur when you had proteins, and after a time, they turned into self-promoting proteins. Later RNA evolved and that led to DNA, and eventually many creatures evolve using RNA and DNA. No one knows how protiens became self-promoting protiens, but then again, no one knows how and if the Gods/God created everything. My way satisfies both sides of the argument, science and religion. Why not leave it at that?
saucy
you have a point. Maybe I just don't want to see lies (science) mixed up with the truth (creation)
Kellalor
QUOTE (Venomshocker @ Apr 21 2004, 02:42 PM)
Creationism does have scientific evidence to support it.
Lack of proof of speciation is evidence for creationism.
Lack of good transitional fossils is evidence for creationism.
By means of scientific reduction you can get evidence for creationism.
Sure seems scientific too me.

I agree, but mainstream science does not and will not factor in the possibility of the divine.
saucy
it's called adapting to your environment. Call that evolution if you want. I know for a fact that insects, animals and even humans adapt to their surrounds, but evolution is a far cry from that
saucy
they refuse to believe God exists, but archeology keeps proving all the scientists wrong. Why doesn't the world see this? They teach this crap in school and they don't even know that it's true and there's more evidence to the contrary
Venomshocker
Druidus, yes evoloution happens in viruses, and in humans. All animals change on a genetic level over time. But I believe your taking it one step too far.

One animal morphing into another animal has never EVER been proven scientifically. There is no scientific proof of speciation. And because of that other theories need to be considered, i.e.creationism.
Druidus
QUOTE
you have a point. Maybe I just don't want to see lies (science) mixed up with the truth (creation)


Please don't outright call all science lies. Or at least, don't say religion is a definate truth. I certainly believe it's the truth, but does that make it the truth? Also, what about the religions that belief in suffering and ritual sacrifice? Are they the "truth"?
saucy
religion can and has been proven over and over again. Scientists keep scratching their heads and making the age of the earth older and older because they just don't understand. The so-called facts written in science books now are way different than twenty, even ten years ago. The facts have never changed over four thousand or more years in the bible.
Kellalor
This is gonna turn into another science vs religion, evolution vs creation argument isn't it? laugh.gif
saucy
I tried to post creation vs. evolution and they dropped it before it even started. This is my way of getting by that and it worked. Thanks guys! whistling2.gif
Druidus
QUOTE
Druidus, yes evoloution happens in viruses, and in humans. All animals change on a genetic level over time. But I believe your taking it one step too far.

One animal morphing into another animal has never EVER been proven scientifically. There is no scientific proof of speciation. And because of that other theories need to be considered, i.e.creationism.


Maybe not, but just because one theory (evolution) doesn't have proof in what it says does not mean that another is right (creationism). Creationism has offered no proof either. All it does is say, "well evolution has no proof, so that proves us right!".

QUOTE
it's called adapting to your environment. Call that evolution if you want. I know for a fact that insects, animals and even humans adapt to their surrounds, but evolution is a far cry from that


Adaptations are the building blocks of evolution. Humans are animals. So are insects. Both plants and animals adapt to their environment. But what if the environment changed drastically? Sure, most of a species might die off, but some might survive, some with the adaptations to survive. Now what happens when it keeps changing, for the worse? The species adapts again, and again, eventually forming a new species, through evolution.
saucy
also, science says that throughout time there have been many periods where everything died out and life had to start all over again and again.
Druidus
Science doesn't say all life died out periodically! Where are you reading that from?

Wherever it is you got that it is wrong. Science says extinctions occurred but not to the point of all life dying out! In the beginning, when we only had self-promoting proteins we may have had a few false starts but other than that, nope.
chico del nacho
QUOTE
you have a point. Maybe I just don't want to see lies (science) mixed up with the truth (creation)

verys trong words. i don't like science myself. too hard to understand for me for the most part. but i know that for the most part, it is pretty accurate. still, there are those who see science as an "organized system of ignorance."

one theory i heard is the cosmological (i think that's the right word...) argument for god's existence. basically, it proves god exists (as well as that can be done rolleyes.gif ) with a basis in cause and effect. it says god exists, or at least did at some point, by being the initial effect, which caused effects which caused effects ad infinitum. the cosmological argument says god was the effectless cause, or causeless effect, or whatever it would be.
chico del nacho
oh yeah forgot to mention. yes there were mass extinctions, they think there's been about 6, but like druidus says, not all life died out. in fact, scientist believe that we are in the begining of another mass extinction, don'tcha know.
Venomshocker
QUOTE
The species adapts again, and again, eventually forming a new species, through evolution.


Adaptation yes, a new species forming, NO! Not in this current scientific world.

QUOTE
Creationism has offered no proof either. All it does is say, "well evolution has no proof, so that proves us right!".


I never offered proof for creationism. Just some good O'l reductionistic scientific evidence. This is why creationism is also a science.



SilverCougar
QUOTE (Kellalor @ Apr 21 2004, 08:58 PM)
This is gonna turn into another science vs religion, evolution vs creation argument isn't it? laugh.gif

*twitches*

Gods no.. please no...

These "I'm right, you're wrong" debates never end pretty...

Yes there is proof of things that happened in the bible, people did write what they see and know... And there is proof of human existence long before the bible "dates" us, and proof of goddess/gods worship long before the bible was even writen and claimed things to have happened.

My question is: Why can't people be left to believe in what they feel is right for them?
Druidus
Religion by itself has never been proven. Sorry but no. No religion has been proven entirely. The bible is just what people saw and tried to write down scientifically. They saw waters disappear and create a path for the Jews, they thought it was a work of God. In reality it could have been attributed to many things. They saw the plagues of Egypt, said it was an act of God, in reality many things could have caused those plagues. Please realize that I do believe in religion. I just make a bastard religion/science crossbreed. It helps everyone and I take the best from both sides and chuck the rest away grin2.gif . Science would have seen clues as to whether or not the biblical flood occurred. There was a flood we have proven that, but the flood was definately not worldwide. And since it wasn't I have proved a part of the bible wrong. Why can't other parts be wrong if one is? Men wrote it. Men are prone to mistakes, fallacies and fiction. All of the bible may be based of of facts but warped instead of crystal clear. Anyways, my Gods want me to question everything, even to the point of questioning them, so I do. They want us to be scientific and religious.
SilverCougar
I didn't say the religons were proven, just proven to have existed.. as in proven that people believed. The only right or wrong should be left up to the indavidual person. Not forced onto them in mass.
Venomshocker
Druidus
QUOTE
Science would have seen clues as to whether or not the biblical flood occurred. There was a flood we have proven that, but the flood was definately not worldwide. And since it wasn't I have proved a part of the bible wrong.

There was a worldwide flood. So no, you HAVENT proved the bible wrong.
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...showtopic=14929

Druidus
760 B.C.? I'm not going to even dignify that by writing all the evidence about it. That's way to close to now. It would be remembered in more books than the bible. LOL!
Venomshocker
Budy are you blind??? Its 7640 B.C..
aquatus1
Science is a process. Science is a methodology used to evaluate and analyze data. Part of this process is the formation of a theory. A theory has to be capable of explaining the existing data and either offering the possibility to replicate or predict what its effect will be. An essential factor of this process is falsifiability. In order to avoid self-deception, every theory must have a method allowing it to be proven incorrect. It must also be verified by peer-review. This means that a credible panel of people educated in a particular topic must agree that the data, controversial or otherwise, is nonetheless valid. Occam's Razor is a proven standard. In the vast majority of cases, the simplest solution has been proven to be the correct one.

Self-correction is inherent. Data is not static; it grows and changes with further research. Theories must be able to explain the new data as well as the old. If the theory does not explain the data, the theory must change. And many, many theories have changed with the advent of new information.

The reason why I cannot consider creationism a theory is because there is no central theory which can be used to evaluate and analyze data; at best, the general argument can be summed up as "God did it." There is no way to predict any event; how guaranteed is a prayer? There is no falsifiability; if a prayer fails, it's because God knows best. And there is little consensus with peer-review; how many different Judeo-Christian variations are there? Occam's Razor need not apply. "God did it" is certainly simpler to say, but is hardly a simpler explanation.

Most importantly, there is no self-correction. If the data that we have does not fit the creationist theory, no creationist will admit that the theory is incorrect. The only option left is to change the data to fit the theory.

Creationism is a postulate. It is a statement of belief and faith. There is no requirement in the bible for scientific verification of God. There is no need for independent non-bias verification. In short, there is no need to call it a science.
Nethius
why start this again? nobody is gonna be convinced either way...

Daughter of the Nine Moons
QUOTE (saucy @ Apr 21 2004, 04:02 PM)
I tried to post creation vs. evolution and they dropped it before it even started. This is my way of getting by that and it worked. Thanks guys! whistling2.gif

I'm surprised it hasn't been closed yet. The moderators don't like it when you try to "get by" them. Better suggestion is to email a moderator and present your case for re-opening your thread. Just a thought
Mentalcase
QUOTE (saucy @ Apr 21 2004, 03:02 PM)
I tried to post creation vs. evolution and they dropped it before it even started. This is my way of getting by that and it worked. Thanks guys! whistling2.gif

Just for that... disgust.gif

Don't try to sneak around the issue. Maybe SaRuMaN will reopen this topic later, but I think it is rude to go behind our backs and try to reopen the closed topic.
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