Seraphina
Dec 12 2004, 09:28 AM
Looking at how Raven is so incredibly over in every other fed in the US, I'd say Paul was right...Raven could have been a big star in the WWE if he was marketed right (the reason Raven was so over to begin with is because Paul did manage to market him right...the same goes for Rhino, who in the hands of the WWE bookers barely even scrapes mediocre) However, that doesn't mean it would have been a good thing
AtticusBlueprint
Dec 12 2004, 06:20 PM
QUOTE
Funaki won the cruiserweight battle royal
Yes, I really hope Funaki wins the title at the PPV, the fans love Funaki for really no other reason then just Funaki, or he could lose and go back to jobbing on velocity
Seraphina
Dec 12 2004, 06:50 PM
Well, the WWE lost Taka for treating him like a "little Japanese guy" that jobs to people all the time...and while I'm not proposing for one moment that Funaki is as talented as Taka, he's still one of the most sound cruiserweights the WWE has...he SHOULD have a bigger role in the shows

It still turns my stomach how he was eliminated in that elimination match a while back....
AtticusBlueprint
Dec 12 2004, 07:33 PM
QUOTE
while I'm not proposing for one moment that Funaki is as talented as Taka
Taka was never Smackdowns #1 announcer

..
Seraphina
Dec 12 2004, 07:37 PM
This is certainly true

But then again, the WWE seems to think Michael Cole is Smackdown's top announcer

I'll never be able to forget the night when he tried to emulate JR....Jim Ross, the man who, when Mick Foley came off the cell, gave a very genuine (given he didn't know it was going to happen)...
"My god! By god that killed him! By god! By my god! Get some help out here! Mick is dead!"
Compaired to Michael...who, when Vince McMahon fell a few feet off of a cage wall through a table, shouted in a very unconvincing way...
"Oh no. Vince McMahon. He may be dead."
Between that, and his toilet encounter with Heidenreich, at least Cole provides comedy
AtticusBlueprint
Dec 12 2004, 08:03 PM
Cole does provide comedy but I don't think he knows it, he's like the guy that tries too hard, and you just end up laughing at him, instead of with him. It still was funny whenever Heidenreich came out Cole would run away, and when Tazz usually ends up having to set Cole in his place. Though now I'm starting to think that Bill and Josh are starting to mesh alot better on Velocity, then Cole and Tazz
Josh:If Billy Kidman hadn't eliminated Paul London from the Cruiserweight Battle Royal, he could be the number one contender right now!
Bill:And if cream cheese hadn't have been invented, there would be no need for the bagel
^I thought that was just randomly funny...
On a side note, I think it was a terrible idea to move the whole Chavo/Kidman/London storyline to Velocity, I mean it was actually one of the better storylines for Smackdown and they go and just drop the whole thing, and Paul London was just getting over
Seraphina
Dec 12 2004, 08:07 PM
QUOTE
On a side note, I think it was a terrible idea to move the whole Chavo/Kidman/London storyline to Velocity, I mean it was actually one of the better storylines for Smackdown and they go and just drop the whole thing, and Paul London was just getting over
Well, you see this is because Vince and the current writing team have this odd believe, that HUGE guys giving each other open hand chops in the corner of the ring, will somehow draw more crowds than talented wrestlers having awesome matches.
It's amazing the WWE has survived this long, it really is
AtticusBlueprint
Dec 12 2004, 08:16 PM
QUOTE
It's amazing the WWE has survived this long, it really is
lol
My theory is that Vince was raised in the days when in wrestling it was rare to see a "small" guy, so I think that Vince is still in that mindset that people wanna see 7 foot 300 pound guys duke it out. Like a crazy old man to stubborn and old to change his ways, and everyone is too scared to tell him different. Or maybe WWE just has something against cruisers and tag team wrestling, I don't know.
Seraphina
Dec 12 2004, 08:29 PM
It's a crazy opinion though....I know I've said it before, but look at the most over wrestlers of all time...
Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, Stone Cold Steve Austin, and the Rock...not a single one of them is 7 feet tall and/or over 300lbs. The only guy matching that description who was ever anywhere near that over is the Undertaker, and that's because he was not only (and is still) in good enough shape to have good matches, but because he was landed with what might just be the most popular gimmick of all time.
Yet Vince is still able to think guys who have more body fat than the Staffordshire cattle fare are able to draw better crowds, going completely against what history has shown us...he's a loony
Big_Evil89
Dec 12 2004, 08:44 PM
yeah check out my wrestling site info www.wrestlingnation.cjb.net !
Subtemperate
Dec 12 2004, 09:21 PM
Might be a bit before your time Sera, but Andre the Giant was very over....
snuffypuffer
Dec 12 2004, 09:21 PM
Dear god, Mildred, is that spam sitting in the corner?!
Subtemperate
Dec 12 2004, 09:29 PM
Oh and depending on what you mean.... in the mid 90's Kevin Nash was very over, and we know about his wrestling ability....
Seraphina
Dec 12 2004, 09:31 PM
QUOTE
Might be a bit before your time Sera, but Andre the Giant was very over....
True, but not to the same extent as the guys I listed

Andre the Giant is still a guy largly known only to wrestling fans...almost everyone, regardless of whether they're a fan or not (Americans in particular) have heard of Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold Steve Austin, and the Rock

Shawn Michaels and Ric Flair are a bit more iffy....they probably would have been extremely well known outside of the industry in their day, but not so much now.
Subtemperate
Dec 12 2004, 09:33 PM
You said over wrestlers, that doesnt require being known outside of wrestling fans
Seraphina
Dec 12 2004, 09:38 PM
Subby, if you're going to make a habit of frustrating me by disagreeing with me, then I'm going to start making a habit of frsutrating you
Subtemperate
Dec 12 2004, 09:39 PM
Then your way ahead of yourself
AtticusBlueprint
Dec 12 2004, 11:04 PM
QUOTE
Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, Stone Cold Steve Austin, and the Rock
Hulk Hogan,The Rock,Steve Austin, are pretty large guys.Ric Flair and Shawn Michaels where saved by charisma. Guys like Christian, Rey Mysterio, Steven Richards, Matt Hardy, Hurricane, London, who can all work well with bigger guys too, but will probly never see the world heaveyweight title shot.
Seraphina
Dec 12 2004, 11:07 PM
QUOTE
Hulk Hogan,The Rock,Steve Austin, are pretty large guys
Large...but not giants

Vince seems unable to distinguish between "big", which has worked in the past, and "huge" which rarely has.
QUOTE
Guys like Christian, Rey Mysterio, Steven Richards, Matt Hardy, Hurricane, London, who can all work well with bigger guys too, but will probly never see the world heaveyweight title shot.
I agree....sad, but true. Well...actually, Rey did fight Brock Lesnar for the world title on Smackdown one time...and Christian did fight the Rock for it a few years ago....but true, none of them have ever had an actual title push, and it's unlikely they will....the only one that has any real hope for it as things stand is Christian, and he's still a long way off.
Subtemperate
Dec 13 2004, 12:38 AM
The Rock is around 6'4 and hogan 6'5 - 6'6 from memory..... Undertaker is about 6'9 - 6'10. In fact hogan at his peak weighed more then the undertaker does now...
Does 3 inches more make him a giant compared to them?
Am I doing this just to be annoying?
The Book Man
Dec 13 2004, 07:05 AM
well they just had to have booker get pinned
i guess the wwe is gonna have booker retiring with out a long title run of any kind
Subtemperate
Dec 13 2004, 07:12 AM
I have the feeling he will be in the title match at wrestlemania (if he doesnt win it earlier, or on the other hand he could be setting up a fued with Eddie......
Seraphina
Dec 13 2004, 11:50 AM
QUOTE
The Rock is around 6'4 and hogan 6'5 - 6'6 from memory..... Undertaker is about 6'9 - 6'10. In fact hogan at his peak weighed more then the undertaker does now...
And I'd wager the Undertaker in his peak weighed more than he does now...what was your point?

QUOTE
Does 3 inches more make him a giant compared to them?
No, not compaired to them, but compaired to the average

Guys like the Rock, Hogan, and Triple H are "big" compaired to the average....Undertaker is "gigantic"

If guys like the Rock were the average size, then no, Taker wouldn't be a giant...but then again, Big Show would only be "slightly oversized" too, wouldn't he?

QUOTE
Am I doing this just to be annoying?
Well, if that is your intention, I do admire the Submeister's focus upon his goal
Subtemperate
Dec 13 2004, 02:26 PM
Actually if the biggest guy on the roster is say 7 foot, or 7 foot two.... And the smallest is about 5 foot 6...... then mathematically with Vinces love of big men the average height of the WWE lockeroom would be around 6'3 or 6'4..... If not slightly higher.....

Undertaker indeed weighed 328lbs at his peak.....
Seraphina
Dec 14 2004, 09:06 AM
QUOTE
then mathematically with Vinces love of big men the average height of the WWE lockeroom would be around 6'3 or 6'4..... If not slightly higher.....
....
Subby, one day, I'm going to have to teach you that calculating the "average" of a large group, is not done by taking the largest variable, and the smallest variable, and finding the half way point. This is "the middle", not "the average".
Subtemperate
Dec 14 2004, 10:09 AM
Yes, but but if your contention is that the WWE has more large guys then small guys, because Vince has a thing for them...... The law of averages would tend to show that the size average would also be on the big side.
Per say, if more are big, then are little...the average will be higher then the mid point of the two heights. So if the middlepoint between 5'6 and 7'2 is 6'4... and you believe that Vince has a thing for big men.... Averages would show that the height average would be above 6'4.....
If not, then there would be more little men (below 6'4) in the company, so therefore the theory that Vince has a love for bigmen would be false.... as he would employ more smaller wrestlers then big ones....
Seraphina
Dec 14 2004, 10:12 AM
I don't think more guys are big than little...I just think Vince chooses to devote more screen time to the large guys. If you were to go into the WWE locker room, you'd probably find most of them are between 5'10 and 6'2.
Engulf
Dec 14 2004, 10:17 AM
Just a little something, did anyone saw Raw last week? I was wondering what happened to Benoit and the ref after T-H gave them thier respectable chair-shots.

It was awful man, especially Benoit......
Subtemperate
Dec 14 2004, 10:18 AM
Yes, but if you went through and counted the minutes given to the wrestlers, Im very sure that those under 6'3 would have far more minutes given to them, then those over (since I can only think of 5 of six giants as such)...... Therefore that would be incorrect too....
However I would agree that too much time is given to those who cant wrestle, and since many of those have been big..... They show out more.
Seraphina
Dec 14 2004, 10:18 AM
Actually, I didn't see RAW. I work most Thursday nights (when it gets aired over here), and I usually just end up crashing the moment I get home, and miss the show

Did Benoit end up bleeding or something? If so, I wouldn't worry...he probably bladed.
Seraphina
Dec 14 2004, 10:21 AM
QUOTE
Yes, but if you went through and counted the minutes given to the wrestlers, Im very sure that those under 6'3 would have far more minutes given to them, then those over (since I can only think of 5 of six giants as such)...... Therefore that would be incorrect too....
Of course they would

You can't compair the cumulative air time of every normal sized guy, to every behemoth....they're vastly outnumbered

What you would do instead if compair the average air time given to a big guy, and the number of times a big guy is put in a main angle, and compair it to the average air time given to a little guy, and the number of times a little guy is put in a main angle (many of them would, of course, be contributing a 0 to this angle...the same can't be said for almost every big guy in the company).
Subtemperate
Dec 14 2004, 10:29 AM
Depends what you class as the main angle..... Take Wrestlemania for example...
HHH vs Benoit vs Michaels (HHH is about 6'4... so average, and the others are small)
Kurt vs Eddie (Both less then average, 6'0 to 5'10)
Those were the two main matches, which took up all our tv time in Jan - March..... along with Goldberg vs Brock..... and since both of them are under 6'4 they would be average as well......
Kane vs Undertaker was the only storyline getting any time at all in 2 months really, and that was generally 5 minutes a raw or so......
So in about 2 months, the biggest 2 months in the company.... The smaller guys score all the time on the shows..... and get the big pay offs....
How many times has a guy over 6'5 main evented at Wrestlemainia.... not many. Hulk Hogan and the Rock obvious exceptions, the undertaker has only once...... Big Show I think once (in a four way match).... Sid once..... Andre once.....
SO the smaller guys do get the best time at the best time fo year for them, just not the best time every day

(obvuiously the crusiers are terribly misused, I am not debating that fact)
Subtemperate
Dec 14 2004, 02:23 PM
Apparently Heyman is once again a creative consultant, however hes not on the writing team.....
The heyman merri-go-round continues....
Talon
Dec 15 2004, 02:28 AM
QUOTE
well they just had to have booker get pinned
i guess the wwe is gonna have booker retiring with out a long title run of any kind
I'm afraid in Vince's eyes Booker has three qualifications which means he will never be champ: 1. he's talented, that means he can be used to put others over, but not himself: 2. He's considered WCW material and not WWE, that in itself is a killer: 3. He's back, and looking at Vince's past record black wrestlers tend to be used in 'I'm a black racist and the world's a conspiracy agaist me' gimmic year after year and are rarely given any further proof. While we're on the subject, has their ever been a black WWF/WWE champion?
Talon
Dec 15 2004, 02:30 AM
QUOTE(Talon S. @ Dec 15 2004, 02:28 AM)
QUOTE
well they just had to have booker get pinned
i guess the wwe is gonna have booker retiring with out a long title run of any kind
I'm afraid in Vince's eyes Booker has three qualifications which means he will never be champ: 1. he's talented, that means he can be used to put others over, but not himself: 2. He's considered WCW material and not WWE, that in itself is a killer: 3. He's black, and looking at Vince's past record black wrestlers tend to be used in 'I'm a black racist and the world's a conspiracy agaist me' gimmic year after year and are rarely given any further push. While we're on the subject, has their ever been a black WWF/WWE champion?
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Subtemperate
Dec 15 2004, 03:02 AM
Yes, but asking "has there ever been a black champion?" is a redundant statement, as I could ask whether there have been any Australian or New Zealand Champions (both have had wrestlers in WWE and both usually white) and come up with the same response....
Thinking that someone is not been given the title, where only about 8 people in the entire company have held it, because he's black, is reverse racism. Im sure you can name many wrestlers that have the same status, and have been treated the same but are white.... So race is not an issue. Bad booking however I can see blamed...
Talon
Dec 15 2004, 03:04 AM
QUOTE
Yes, but asking "has there ever been a black champion?" is a redundant statement, as I could ask whether there have been any Australian or New Zealand Champions (both have had wrestlers in WWE and both usually white) and come up with the same response....
I never knew Australian or New Zealander made up 30% of the US population
Subtemperate
Dec 15 2004, 03:10 AM
.....What does that have to do with anything? Let me think of the black wrestlers in the WWE......
Booker T
Sheltan Benjamin
Orlando Jordan
Mark Henry
Dvon Dudley
Theodore Long....
Now out of them, how many should be world champion? One. The rest either dont deserve it, or arent ready yet.....
So on the basis of One guy in the company not getting pushed...... You claim he has something against all blacks?
Farooq, D'Lo, Kama, Virgil...... I cant think of any others that SHOULD of been champion.......
Talon
Dec 15 2004, 03:13 AM
QUOTE
Thinking that someone is not been given the title, where only about 8 people in the entire company have held it, because he's black, is reverse racism. Im sure you can name many wrestlers that have the same status, and have been treated the same but are white.... So race is not an issue. Bad booking however I can see blamed...
8 people? What are you talking about, the WWF has had been around for decades, the claim that it has only 8 champions is an utter choke.
And as for 'reverse racism' I have no idea what that's supost to mean. But if your claiming that 'positive discrimination' then noooooo, that would be ware I claim a black guy should get the title simply so their has been one whether they deserve it or not, like Halle Berry at the Oscars. Not once did I make a claim like Mark Hendry or such like should get the title based on them being black. I am saying however that their is something wrong, whether you like it or not, with a company that lands people over and over with the 'I'm a black man/ a Japanese/ a European/ an Arab/ a Mexican / a canadian and the world is against me' etc gimmic over and over again.
If it wasn't for this, then maybe I would agree that its just the luck of the draw, however I'm guessing theirs a level of racism involved, because we know from the last 10 years that the WWE does give ethnic minorites and foreigners the 'anti American racist' gimmic non-stop and doesn't treat them seriously.
Talon
Dec 15 2004, 03:15 AM
QUOTE
.....What does that have to do with anything? Let me think of the black wrestlers in the WWE......
Booker T
Sheltan Benjamin
Orlando Jordan
Mark Henry
Dvon Dudley
Theodore Long....
Now out of them, how many should be world champion? One. The rest either dont deserve it, or arent ready yet.....
So on the basis of One guy in the company not getting pushed...... You claim he has something against all blacks?
Farooq, D'Lo, Kama, Virgil...... I cant think of any others that SHOULD of been champion.......
And the roster for the last 25 years is? And I notuce that 4 ofthose 6 have had the 'black racist' gimmic
Talon
Dec 15 2004, 03:15 AM
QUOTE(Talon S. @ Dec 15 2004, 03:13 AM)
QUOTE
Thinking that someone is not been given the title, where only about 8 people in the entire company have held it, because he's black, is reverse racism. Im sure you can name many wrestlers that have the same status, and have been treated the same but are white.... So race is not an issue. Bad booking however I can see blamed...
8 people? What are you talking about, the WWF has had been around for decades, the claim that it has only 8 champions is an utter joke.
And as for 'reverse racism' I have no idea what that's supost to mean. But if your claiming that 'positive discrimination' then noooooo, that would be ware I claim a black guy should get the title simply so their has been one whether they deserve it or not, like Halle Berry at the Oscars. Not once did I make a claim like Mark Hendry or such like should get the title based on them being black. I am saying however that their is something wrong, whether you like it or not, with a company that lands people over and over with the 'I'm a black man/ a Japanese/ a European/ an Arab/ a Mexican / a canadian and the world is against me' etc gimmic over and over again.
If it wasn't for this, then maybe I would agree that its just the luck of the draw, however I'm guessing theirs a level of racism involved, because we know from the last 10 years that the WWE does give ethnic minorites and foreigners the 'anti American racist' gimmic non-stop and doesn't treat them seriously.
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Subtemperate
Dec 15 2004, 03:24 AM
There are 8 people in the company at this time (I did say IN the company, as in "current")....right now.... who have held the world title.....
Smackdown : Big Show, Undertaker, Angle, Eddie, Bradshaw.....
Raw: HHH, Jericho, Benoit, Kane, Michaels (The rock, foley, Flair)
So there is a total of....10 active wrestlers who have held the title between both shows.... Not counting Rock, Foley or Flair...... Choosing one guy out of the many, and saying he doesnt have the title due to racism, is a bit stupid...... They used to say that about Eddie, the only reason he didnt get the belt was he was mexican...... and after it, its claimed racism if the run didnt go properly.....
I can understand how the way they write the character can be seen in a way as it could be considered too stereotypical, such as "A black man" or " A arab man"...... but I dont put this down to racism, that is down to bad writing. There are many characters that had just as bad a deal from character write ups, that arent based on race. So oon the whole the wriring team sucks, it isnt a matter of race.
Subtemperate
Dec 15 2004, 03:45 AM
QUOTE
WrestlingObserver.com has reported new details on the backstage fight between wrestling legends Mick Foley and Ric Flair. The fight transpired shortly before RAW and ultimately had no effect on Foley's decision to appear live on the show to plug the Middle Eastern tour, while also adding heat to the Hassan and Daivari characters.
Apparently, Ric Flair approached Foley and offered a handshake, a gesture which Mick declined. Foley then asked for an autographed copy of Ric Flair's book; Flair did not appreciate the remark and threw a punch at Foley. The punch did indeed land, but the two were broken up before the situation could escalate any further.
Talon
Dec 15 2004, 04:15 AM
QUOTE
Choosing one guy out of the many, and saying he doesnt have the title due to racism, is a bit stupid......
Don't call me stupid, I never said Booker only, I was talking in general.
Why did Foley refuse the handshake? Was Flair on one of his, 'i'll insult people' in my book phases again?
Subtemperate
Dec 15 2004, 04:18 AM
I never called you stupid, I called the rationisation stupid.... In general also....
lol..... Foley probably didnt know where Flairs hands had been... most likely up HHH's ....um...nose....
Talon
Dec 15 2004, 04:34 AM
QUOTE
I called the rationisation stupid
The rationalisation is fine, the writting team recicle the same sterotypical crap year after year
QUOTE
lol..... Foley probably didnt know where Flairs hands had been... most likely up HHH's ....um...nose....
nose? I would have though his a$$ myself
Subtemperate
Dec 15 2004, 04:44 AM
"The rationalisation is fine, the writting team recicle the same sterotypical crap year after year"
Yes, and my point is that doesnt make them racist...... That makes them very narrow minded, and not very creative as it is across the board the problem, not just with minorities....
Talon
Dec 15 2004, 04:47 AM
But it is minorities that cheap getting this stupid gimmic.
Don't get me wrong, I know the writting team is stupid in all other areas to though.
Subtemperate
Dec 15 2004, 05:29 AM
The reason for that is because if there were more of them, we would then find the gimmicks would be different, as you cant have too many wrestlers the same...... There are so many white Americans, and canadian's... they need diversity alot more then those who already stand out.
The writing team however is very stupid.... If you think of all the big wrestlers, none of them (bar Undertaker) had much thinking behind them. Most play themselves, in fact most big names were alter ego's of themselves......
However it is still just entertainemnt, and Booker is highly paid, doing what he loves to do which is perform to the fans..... If he believed he was being treated in a racist way he would leave, and if not....then I dont respect him for putting up with it....
Subtemperate
Dec 15 2004, 07:15 AM
QUOTE
- There is a rumor going around that Paul Heyman's dismissal from the writing team might have stemmed from being caught red-handed "not telling the truth." One source is under the impression the lie could have involved listening in on a RAW writer's call.
Other reasons for his dismissal include clashing with Stephanie and Vince, as well as leaving meetings and conference calls early.
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