Full Version: Jesus
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| As I said before , god cannot be scientifically proven or disproven |
Xeno, as I've already stated, we are not required to disprove God
Currently, evolution is holding all the cards. It has all the answers, it has all the evidence, it has all the ammunition. Not a single arguement made in favour of creationism has gone unanswered, while creationists have been utterly unable to provide any strong or long term opposition in answer to the questions posed to it by science.
Evolution is offering evidence and a strong case that is simply getting stronger as time goes on, and creationism ran out of ammunition a long time ago, and was firing blanks to begin with. There is no need for us to disprove God to establish he doesn't exist, because without any supporting evidence he remains a character in a book.
The responsibility is not on us to tell you why God isn't real, anymore than it is to tell you why Gandalf isn't real; the existance of either character shows about as much evidence or logic, and is just as likely given the current evidence (suffice to say...none).
In establishing creationism as the far more likely possibility, we leave God standing on very unsteady legs indeed, given God's holy book gives a different account; we don't need to prove he doesn't exist, because no strong evidence has yet been put forward to even suggest that he does, let alone prove it.
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| The responsibility is not on us to tell you why God isn't real, anymore than it is to tell you why Gandalf isn't real; the existance of either character shows about as much evidence or logic, and is just as likely given the current evidence (suffice to say...none). |
The last think I intend to do here is get into a religious debate with Seraphina the Goddess of Greatness.
I do however have something pertinent to the discussion to say. Thusly:
A question and an answer: Q: Why do you think it is that after 2000 plus years,
many extremely intelligent and educated people still believe that Jesus is the Son of God?
A: Because they have experienced the redemption of the cross, pure and simple.
When one throws all else aside and falls on ones knees and sincerely askes God to forgive them and show them the way of the cross, an amazing thing happens...not just to some Seraphina...but to all who seek him out. The amazing thing is that they are changed. It isn't the miracles, it isn't the church, it isn't about how righteous one thinks they are, it is about the miracle of forgiveness. It isn't intellectual, it is just when a person comes to the knowledge that they are lost in a lost world, and seeks out the Master, the Master comes and does a miracle that no one can explain.
as real as what Budhists feel, and Hindus, and Muslims, and practically any other religion out there, its irrelevant
| QUOTE |
| When one throws all else aside and falls on ones knees and sincerely askes God to forgive them and show them the way of the cross, an amazing thing happens...not just to some Seraphina...but to all who seek him out. |
I think you'll find this proves absolutely nothing; if someone wholeheartedly believes already, then whatever they "feel" is likely them simply believing whatever they want to believe. If a person utterly believes Pinko, the amazing dancing elephant, lives in their closest, the fact they believe they've experienced, seen, or spoken to pinko does not make him more than a figment of their imagination unless they provide some kind of evidence for his existance
The evidence part is something God's been keeping us waiting for...and I doubt it's ever going to come either | QUOTE |
| A question and an answer: Q: Why do you think it is that after 2000 plus years, many extremely intelligent and educated people still believe that Jesus is the Son of God? |
Why is it in the past ten thousand years, creationism has been utterly unable to offer a scrap of evidence, when evolution has managed to prove itself to the scientific world in a matter of decades?
Maybe because there isn't any?
| QUOTE |
| The last think I intend to do here is get into a religious debate with Seraphina the Goddess of Greatness. |
Good
Don't 
Q: Why do you think it is that after 2000 plus years,
many extremely intelligent and educated people still believe that Jesus is the Son of God?
1) They were brought up that way, home-schooled possibly, and never had access to a library. Or when they did read otherwise they were scorned for doing so.
2) Fell into the gutter as a result of some type of indulgence or tragedy, and religion was the only thing that gave then the motivation to change. Instead of rebuilding their lives on their own accord.
3) Its the proper thing to say. Alot of people just simply say that they believe in God as to avoid any religious assault from believers. Also many business people or leaders, or any figure that has a following of masses or a clientel would wisely profess belief to prevent the loss of said following or clientel.These people make up a large portion of the surveys alot of christians flaunt as validation that "everyone's doing it"
4) It suffices for the moment , most people have more immediate concerns.
5) Their belief in God also comes with a sense of community in which they gain self worth.Constant pats on the back and personal motivation to get them through the week.
6) The belief in God comes with two rewards A) Salvation rewarded for your diefication All the people you don't like will burn in hell.
7) No matter what the believer does wrong they have a gauranteed excuse.. the Devil. And no matter what!..... they are automaticly absolved of said infraction. Its like diplomatic ammunity.
8) The world is way too difficult for them to comprehend so they figure it must be of design. Indeed they percieve their lives to be uncontrolable, this is scary to them, so they throw their lives in the hands of someone more powerful.
9) Once told about hell they couldn't bare to take the chance, so they believe just in case its true. Picturing dear old grandma burning in brimstone hellfire would convince alot of people to believe ......just in case.
10) Someone else can fill in number 10
many extremely intelligent and educated people still believe that Jesus is the Son of God?
1) They were brought up that way, home-schooled possibly, and never had access to a library. Or when they did read otherwise they were scorned for doing so.
2) Fell into the gutter as a result of some type of indulgence or tragedy, and religion was the only thing that gave then the motivation to change. Instead of rebuilding their lives on their own accord.
3) Its the proper thing to say. Alot of people just simply say that they believe in God as to avoid any religious assault from believers. Also many business people or leaders, or any figure that has a following of masses or a clientel would wisely profess belief to prevent the loss of said following or clientel.These people make up a large portion of the surveys alot of christians flaunt as validation that "everyone's doing it"
4) It suffices for the moment , most people have more immediate concerns.
5) Their belief in God also comes with a sense of community in which they gain self worth.Constant pats on the back and personal motivation to get them through the week.
6) The belief in God comes with two rewards A) Salvation rewarded for your diefication
All the people you don't like will burn in hell.7) No matter what the believer does wrong they have a gauranteed excuse.. the Devil. And no matter what!..... they are automaticly absolved of said infraction. Its like diplomatic ammunity.
8) The world is way too difficult for them to comprehend so they figure it must be of design. Indeed they percieve their lives to be uncontrolable, this is scary to them, so they throw their lives in the hands of someone more powerful.
9) Once told about hell they couldn't bare to take the chance, so they believe just in case its true. Picturing dear old grandma burning in brimstone hellfire would convince alot of people to believe ......just in case.
10) Someone else can fill in number 10
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| Because they have experienced the redemption of the cross, pure and simple. |
It might come as a great surprise to you but most theologians now don't believe in the Ressurection as a literal fact....some even don't believe in the crucifixion.
Let's just look at the facts, as they present themselves in the 4 Synoptic Gospels....the bare facts. Notwithstanding that the 4 Gospels don't entirely agree with one another, what do we have.
1. Jesus was whipped, paraded through the streets
2. He was nailed to a cross.....it may have even been a tree with a crossbeam attached to it, but in any case he was crucified
3. His feet where placed in such a fashion (crossed over) so that he had some support.
4. He was given a sponge soaked in gall and vinegar to "quench" his thirst.
5. He "passed away" after only 6 hours on the cross. When the Roman guards were going to break his legs (it makes breathing almost impossible because your whole weight pulls down on your chest), they were prevented from doing so. Pilate allowed his body to be removed then to be taken away to the burial chamber
6. He was stabbed in the side by a lance....some blood and serum leaked out for a period of time.....after his "death" and before he was taken down from the cross
7. When he was taken to the burial crypt, "Joseph of Arimathea" and a few others brought with them a large quantity of bitter aloes and myrrh.....in one of the Gospels it says something like 100lbs worth of bitter aloes.
8. 3 days later, he's seen by Mary Magdalene and then the Apostles.
Ok, now for facts......crucifixion was a cruel and inhuman punishment, it was not swift and merciful. Even given the most severe beatings, people who were crucified could last anywhere upto 1-2 weeks, hanging from the crossbeam. The custom of breaking of the legs was to expirdite the death of the crucified person, as hanging by the ends of the arms caused the body's weight to stretch the muscles of the peritoneal cavity, stopping the person from breathing. When informed of Jesus' death, Pontius Pilate expressed great surprise, as he knew the time Jesus was on the cross was certainly nowhere near long enough to have caused death. The reason why the Roman soldier lanced Jesus was to see if he was dead. The fact that the wound has seeped blood and serum was a sure sign that he was not dead. Dead bodies don't seep blood nor serum when you cut them because there's no blood pressure in the skin capillaries or in other blood vessels after death. The heart isn't beating. The blood actually pools where it stops.
Now, the matter of the gall and vinegar. It's a rather funny concoction to be giving someone who's thirsty and dehydrated. Gall (the venom extracted from viper venom glands) and vinegar is a soporific. It was actually used to induce a state of anaesthesia in people who were to undergo surgery.....like amputations. In strong enough concentrations, the mixture could easily induce coma and give the appearence of death. It slows the heart down to almost a stop and all muscular contractions in the arms and legs stop. They go limp. Vinegar was used to dissolve the venom as it was not soluble in water, plus the vinegar "watered" down the taste of the gall.
Now for the bitter aloes and the myrrh. Aloes and myrrh are not used in the embalming process. Never have been. On the contrary, bitter aloes is actually a purgative, used to rid the body of poisons and other such substances. Try taking some bitter aloes mixture next time you're sick. It's better than ipecac but it's foul tasting. Myrrh was also used as a muscle relaxant when ingested and could also help when being burnt. It was usually used to counteract the effects of the aloes once the aloes job was done.
So what do we have here, given the evidence and the facts as they are seen. Certainly not a death, with attendants and relatives going to enbalm the body with the correct herbs and lotions. Given that he lasted only 6 hours, was given gall and vinegar to drink, that his legs were prevented from being broken by his family, still bleeding after being lanced, taken down and then buried in a crypt where family and attendants took in aloes and myrrh, which are in fact used for the medicinal purposes as already outlined......it appears that, in fact, Jesus was not dead after being taken down off the cross. He was, instead, in a deep coma and was brought out of that coma by being fed bitter aloes to purge his body of the gall poison. He was then made to ingest myrrh or linger in it's burnt form in the smoke....to calm him down after being purged. He was probably lucky to have survived that part of the ordeal at all......the purging would've been extremely harsh and would've knocked him about a lot.
So what happened after all that....where did Jesus go?? Two ideas have come up. He either went with his wife and kids and some of his relatives to the Camargue region in France, where there was a Jewish conclave (and had been for hundreds of years). Or he could've gone east to the Kashmir region with Thomas. The evidence for him having gone with Thomas is more compelling, although nothing would've prevented him going to France at least for awhile. The jury is still out here....and for now the latter movements of Jesus are speculation.
Basically what all this means is that the cornerstone of the Christian faith is nothing more than a myth.....based on a distorted account of the actual truth of the matter. The death and ressurection, as preached, is nothing more than a fabrication used to gain converts to Christianity from other faiths....many of whose own holy prophets and "Sons of God" underwent unusually similar ordeals as was supposed to have been suffered by Jesus. Coincidence??......hardly. The Jews had very good knowledge of the "passion" ordeals of other faiths' leaders for the best part of 600 or more years. They were heavily influenced by Mesopotamian, Greek, Assyrian and other cultures beliefs and philosophies. In order to flourish in these places, Christianity basically subsumed the beliefs of these peoples by absorbing those beliefs into itself. In fact, it had nothng to do with true "Christianity"...... a form of Nazorean Judaism.......but more to do with a spun fantasy of Paul and his little entourage, including Peter (who was nothing more than an illiterate "country bumpkin"....a hired "righthand man").
Did you even see The Passion? Jesus' beating was even worse than portrayed in the film. I would not even survive that, it was more unusually brutal than what most Romans would experience. Pontus Pilate, unwilling to put Jesus through death because he couldn't find any guilt in him, ordered a harsh beating of the man, first using canes, then those whips (can't think of the name, probably cat tails or something) that ripped into his flesh with each lash, opening him him up to the point where his bones were exposed. The ground was covered in his blood. After that he was taken before the crowd who still seeked death and even released a murderer so they can see Jesus get crucified. Imagine the worst Roman beating then a crucifixion. Most people don't endure both, but after the beating, they placed a crown of thorns on his head, which no doubt entered into his skull and brain, then they whipped him, threw rocks at him some more as he drug a cross through town with crowds of people, throwing more rocks. They then crucified him, pulling his shoulder out of joint, spilling more blood. He hung on the cross for six hours, surely sufficating as, not only you say, but many doctors say. If they added poison to all that beating, which I don't doubt and stuck a spear in his side, I truly don't see anyone surviving all that. You really have to see the movie to get a good understanding of the beating. Seconds after he commended his spirit to God, an earthquake ripped through the temple, destroying it and a storm was brewing. They stuck the spear in him to make sure he was dead so they can go inside, honoring a prophecy that said Jesus wouldn't break any bones. They took his body down, a rich man bought the body and placed him in the tomb for the rich (one again fulfilling a prophecy that Jesus would be buried with the rich) and a two ton rock would be placed in front of the entrance. Also, some fifteen Roman quards were placed in front of the tomb because Jesus has caused so much controversy, the Romans didn't want anybody taking the body. After three days, an angel came down from heaven, rolled the two ton rock away from the tomb and asked the men to look into the tomb to see that the body was not there. Nobody dared to look because they knew Jesus was not there. They did, though see him appear before them, his body in perfect shape except for the holes in his hands. No beating scars or marks, no dried blood on is body, no scars on his head from the thorns, nothing. He was almost unrecognizable to the disciples as he appeared before them all, proving once and for all to them that he was the son of God and the true Messiah. After the crucifixion, these disciples went into hiding. They even wrote it about themselves that they were scared and lonely until they indeed saw Jesus had come back. Would such an appearance lead them to suddenly become vocal about the Lord? Even Peter was shy and afraid of the consequences, so much so he denied the Lord three times, but after seeing Jesus appear to him, he no longer kept quiet. None of them did. You can call this whole thing a myth or a legend. You can say God doesn't exist and write post after post of scientific evidence that proves in your eyes that God doesn't and never have existed, but man I have seen and experienced some things because I do believe. He's in the heart of every believer. Like it was said before, we all experience the redemption of the cross. You wouldn't know what it was or felt like so you can't debunk it. Keep your scientific theories and so-called knowledge. If I'm ignorant to believe such a tale, then I'm ignorant no doubt about it. I don't know enough about science to know which theory I should believe and which I shouldn't. Basically, what you guys keep saying to me is that if it supports creation in any way, I shouldn't believe it because it's a large piece of crap. Any arguement whatsoever against science is just total and utter bogus, biased and anyone to believe it is ignorant. That's not right. Not at all. I'm done with all of you on these types of discussions, because I'm the one who gets dumped on by everyone. Peace, love and crabs to you all
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| Let's just look at the facts, as they present themselves in the 4 Synoptic Gospels....the bare facts. |
The only facts that entails is that is what was written. Shelly wrote about Frankenstein, that is a fact, but it doesn't mean Frankenstein existed!
Some folks 'believe' them to be actual factual accounts, some folks regard them as little more than fiction.... both points of view are valid ones.
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| they placed a crown of thorns on his head, which no doubt entered into his skull and brain |
No doubt
I'm not even gonna comment on the rest of the post!
few things are more annoying then when someone tries to argue against me with evidence of evolution .
For the trillionth time I am a christian who believes in both god and evolution . ( the basic idea being god guided the evolutionary process ) .
providing me with evidence of evolution just further convinces me my religious beliefs are correct .
And Although creationism has provided little to no physical evidence , enough logical and philosophical reasons have been brought up by intelligent and level headed human beings to show he is much more likely to exist then a charachter in a book . Unfortunatly I dont have as much time as I used to so I'll let everyone else argue on this one .
For the trillionth time I am a christian who believes in both god and evolution . ( the basic idea being god guided the evolutionary process ) .
providing me with evidence of evolution just further convinces me my religious beliefs are correct .
And Although creationism has provided little to no physical evidence , enough logical and philosophical reasons have been brought up by intelligent and level headed human beings to show he is much more likely to exist then a charachter in a book . Unfortunatly I dont have as much time as I used to so I'll let everyone else argue on this one .
Xenojjin.......what "logical" and "philisophical" reasons have been brought up to show God's existence?
Maybe start with the "logical" reasons.....lol
Maybe start with the "logical" reasons.....lol
Just to add a little spice here, there is no contemporary secular evidence that Jesus ever lived. We only have the New Testament (the earliest gospel of which was written several generations after the supposed events) to give us any information on him (Please all you Christians, don't trot out Jospehus, Tacitus, ect as proof...they either have been proven christian hoaxes or do no more than prove that there were Christians in the 2nd Century CE) Isn't it strange that there was a plethoria of historians, Essayists, etc writing during the period and in the area he supposedly lived, yet they never mention him or his miracles, altho they mention other "holy men" and their supposed miracles. Strange indeed, that is until Saul of Tarus melded Mithraism and Judaism to make Christianity as we know it!
| QUOTE (Xenojjin @ May 16 2004, 04:06 PM) |
| And Although creationism has provided little to no physical evidence , enough logical and philosophical reasons have been brought up by intelligent and level headed human beings to show he is much more likely to exist then a charachter in a book . Unfortunatly I dont have as much time as I used to so I'll let everyone else argue on this one . |
Yes but theres a difference between the one in the Bible and just one.
A lengthy little tidbit that makes you think, at the very least, it shows how the Bible can be manipulated for whatever reason you want!
DOES ISAIAH WARN AGAINST CHRISTIANITY?
We've all seen missionaries try to support their religion by quoting the Tannach. This page turns the tables and quotes the Tannach to debunk Christianity by comparing passages from the prophet Isaiah with passages in the so called New Testament.
Personally, I don't think the Tannach says anything, good or bad, about Jesus, but it is interesting to note how differently the quotes can be interpreted.
I have not checked all the quotes for accuracy. so if you find errors, please let me know.
My thanks to Alex, who sent me this material.
Isaiah warns of coming chaos:
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24:1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. 24:2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; ... 24:3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. 24:4 The earth mourneth [and] fadeth away, the world languisheth [and] fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
Then he says WHY this will happen:
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24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, ...
The so called New Testament advocates all three of these things -- i.e. that people transgress the laws, change the ordinance, and break the everlasting covenants.
1. Transgressing the Law:
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Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree
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Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
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Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
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Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
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Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
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Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression. 16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
2. Changing the Ordinances:
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Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, ...
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Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, ...
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Colossians 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
3. Breaking the Everlasting Covenant -- presumably the Sabbath, the Brit Milah, or the everlasting priesthood.
1.
Sabbath (as specified in 1 Chronicles 16:17, Leviticus 24:8)
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Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath [days]:
2.
Brit melah: (as specified in Genesis 17:13)
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Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3.
Everlasting priesthood. (as specified in Numbers 25:13)
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Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
In summary, the New Testament recommends what Isaiah says will bring chaos.
One aspect of the coming hard times, says Isaiah in a later chapter, will be a "covenant with death, an agreement with the grave."
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28:14 ... hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, ... 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell(the grave) are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
That is, the scornful say they will make a bargain with death so as to escape the bad times.
The so called New Testament does talk about an agreement with death:
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Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament(covenant), that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
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Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
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Colossians 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
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Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
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Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
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Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
This is just what Isaiah is warning against -- people who plot an agreement with death so as to avoid their own personal misfortune. Isaiah says, however, that it won't work:
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Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isaiah 24:16-17 warns against treachery:
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16 ... woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously;... 17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, [are] upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth. 18 And it shall come to pass, [that] he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
Could this be Christianity:
FEAR:
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Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
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Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
THE PIT:
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Revelation 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
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Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.
THE SNARE:
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Mark 1:16 Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.17 And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.
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Luke 5:10 And so [was] also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.
Far fetched? No more so than the quotes missionaries use to support their ideas.
Here is another end of times prediction:
Isaiah 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, ... 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones [that are] on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
HIGH ONES IN HIGH PLACES:
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Again, Isaiah does not bode will for these:
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Isaiah 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Isaiah talks about pride:
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Isaiah 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty [is] a fading flower, which [are] on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
Who gets to wear such a crown?
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28:5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
But the so called New Testament says:
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1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
Who does Isaiah say is able to learn?
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Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts.
But the so called New Testament says the opposite:
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1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat[see also Is28:10,13]: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.
So what to make of all this? Is Isaiah really warning against Christians and Christianity?
You decide.
Yes, when these nations and their kings hear what they have not been told, they will shut their mouths and try to understand it and say "Who would have believed this report?" [Isaiah 52-15-53:1]
Copyright 2001. This means only that you should give me credit by including my E-mail (fiddlerzvi@att.net) and webpage (http://home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/) address and this copyright notice if you share this page with anyone.
DOES ISAIAH WARN AGAINST CHRISTIANITY?
We've all seen missionaries try to support their religion by quoting the Tannach. This page turns the tables and quotes the Tannach to debunk Christianity by comparing passages from the prophet Isaiah with passages in the so called New Testament.
Personally, I don't think the Tannach says anything, good or bad, about Jesus, but it is interesting to note how differently the quotes can be interpreted.
I have not checked all the quotes for accuracy. so if you find errors, please let me know.
My thanks to Alex, who sent me this material.
Isaiah warns of coming chaos:
*
24:1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. 24:2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; ... 24:3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. 24:4 The earth mourneth [and] fadeth away, the world languisheth [and] fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
Then he says WHY this will happen:
*
24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, ...
The so called New Testament advocates all three of these things -- i.e. that people transgress the laws, change the ordinance, and break the everlasting covenants.
1. Transgressing the Law:
*
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree
*
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
*
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
*
Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
*
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
*
Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression. 16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
2. Changing the Ordinances:
*
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, ...
*
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, ...
*
Colossians 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
3. Breaking the Everlasting Covenant -- presumably the Sabbath, the Brit Milah, or the everlasting priesthood.
1.
Sabbath (as specified in 1 Chronicles 16:17, Leviticus 24:8)
*
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath [days]:
2.
Brit melah: (as specified in Genesis 17:13)
*
Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3.
Everlasting priesthood. (as specified in Numbers 25:13)
*
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
In summary, the New Testament recommends what Isaiah says will bring chaos.
One aspect of the coming hard times, says Isaiah in a later chapter, will be a "covenant with death, an agreement with the grave."
*
28:14 ... hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, ... 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell(the grave) are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
That is, the scornful say they will make a bargain with death so as to escape the bad times.
The so called New Testament does talk about an agreement with death:
*
Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament(covenant), that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
*
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
*
Colossians 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
*
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
*
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
*
Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
This is just what Isaiah is warning against -- people who plot an agreement with death so as to avoid their own personal misfortune. Isaiah says, however, that it won't work:
*
Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isaiah 24:16-17 warns against treachery:
*
16 ... woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously;... 17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, [are] upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth. 18 And it shall come to pass, [that] he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
Could this be Christianity:
FEAR:
*
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
*
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
THE PIT:
*
Revelation 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
*
Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.
THE SNARE:
*
Mark 1:16 Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.17 And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.
*
Luke 5:10 And so [was] also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.
Far fetched? No more so than the quotes missionaries use to support their ideas.
Here is another end of times prediction:
Isaiah 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, ... 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones [that are] on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
HIGH ONES IN HIGH PLACES:
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Again, Isaiah does not bode will for these:
*
Isaiah 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Isaiah talks about pride:
*
Isaiah 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty [is] a fading flower, which [are] on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
Who gets to wear such a crown?
*
28:5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
But the so called New Testament says:
*
1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
Who does Isaiah say is able to learn?
*
Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts.
But the so called New Testament says the opposite:
*
1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat[see also Is28:10,13]: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.
So what to make of all this? Is Isaiah really warning against Christians and Christianity?
You decide.
Yes, when these nations and their kings hear what they have not been told, they will shut their mouths and try to understand it and say "Who would have believed this report?" [Isaiah 52-15-53:1]
Copyright 2001. This means only that you should give me credit by including my E-mail (fiddlerzvi@att.net) and webpage (http://home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/) address and this copyright notice if you share this page with anyone.
You have a good post there, but you wasted your time. Nobody here believes a single word of the bible.
Thats some thought provoking text you posted beowulf!! As with all scripture it is totally submissive to the interpreter.
This whole Jesus religion thing is great to talk about. But it has happened in society in front of many with 2 representatives , one from each side. And is kind of cool to note who won the debate HANDS DOWN!!!
http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/goddbt1.htm
http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/msgddb4.htm
This whole Jesus religion thing is great to talk about. But it has happened in society in front of many with 2 representatives , one from each side. And is kind of cool to note who won the debate HANDS DOWN!!!
http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/goddbt1.htm
http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/msgddb4.htm
Has anyone ever noticed that it doesnt really seem like Satan in the Bible does as many bad things as God does? 
| QUOTE |
| This whole Jesus religion thing is great to talk about. But it has happened in society in front of many with 2 representatives , one from each side. And is kind of cool to note who won the debate HANDS DOWN!!! |
In the first place it isn't a debate and in the second place: it isn't about logic,
it isn't about consistency of the Gospels...it is about Forgiveness.
Jesus preached and taught forgiveness. When he was dying on the cross he was forgiving the ones who were doing it.
It isn't about a way someone 'feels'. Sure it seems that way if all you do is watch the so called 'healer..televangelists'. It isn't about healing. It is about forgiveness.
Jesus was very clear about forgiveness: He said, " If you forgive those who have sinned against you then your Father in Heaven will forgive you of your sins, but if you do not forgive those who have sinned against you neither will the Father forgive your sins."
The Cross changes peoples hearts....not just the way they 'feel'.
Hmmm. A thread about Jesus? I think I might just post here.
Jesus was born to Mary and Joseph. Mary was a virgin but I don't know about Joseph. The thing that makes Jesus different from all other births is that his Mother was a virgin! We all know sin is passed through from man. Now Jesus recieved no "contribution" from a man so He is perfect (perfection is lack of sin). Now anyways, He was born without sin as I said and the wages of sin is death. Now everyone here viewing this message and everyone else who hasn't veiwed it (exept Jesus) has sinned at least once in their life. Now instead of us dying Jesus was born so tha He could die in our place so that we could get out of death, Wahoo! Now some of you might be thinking 'people dye every day, where is this compinsation that Jesus gave me?' and the answeris simple. By death, what is meat is hell. Hell is eternal death. That is what we were saved from. So Jesus was born and died. Jesus didn't have to die though; He didn't sin remember? He let those crucifiers kill him. He didn't have to die though. But the wages of sin is death. So God sent Jesus. That was His purpose. If anyone woud like to rebutt me or point out anything that you disagree with please Persnal Message me through this website. Please don't rebutt here on this thread. Last two times people did that the threads were closed.
Now, on with my opinions and facts!...
What's scary is that it is possible to create another Jesus! Yipes! That's some weird stuff. It could be done by someone taking an unfirtalized female human egg (it has to be human, animals connot sin; they don't have souls) and injecting the egg with the other chromozones it needs. These other chromozones must come from a woman. Therefore, you will have a life withou "contribution" from a man. This has been done sucessfully before with animals. I thought it was a neat little theory. I don't, however, think God will allow earth to go on long enough to let that happen. Jesus is the only perfect human being.
Jesus was born to Mary and Joseph. Mary was a virgin but I don't know about Joseph. The thing that makes Jesus different from all other births is that his Mother was a virgin! We all know sin is passed through from man. Now Jesus recieved no "contribution" from a man so He is perfect (perfection is lack of sin). Now anyways, He was born without sin as I said and the wages of sin is death. Now everyone here viewing this message and everyone else who hasn't veiwed it (exept Jesus) has sinned at least once in their life. Now instead of us dying Jesus was born so tha He could die in our place so that we could get out of death, Wahoo! Now some of you might be thinking 'people dye every day, where is this compinsation that Jesus gave me?' and the answeris simple. By death, what is meat is hell. Hell is eternal death. That is what we were saved from. So Jesus was born and died. Jesus didn't have to die though; He didn't sin remember? He let those crucifiers kill him. He didn't have to die though. But the wages of sin is death. So God sent Jesus. That was His purpose. If anyone woud like to rebutt me or point out anything that you disagree with please Persnal Message me through this website. Please don't rebutt here on this thread. Last two times people did that the threads were closed.
Now, on with my opinions and facts!...
What's scary is that it is possible to create another Jesus! Yipes! That's some weird stuff. It could be done by someone taking an unfirtalized female human egg (it has to be human, animals connot sin; they don't have souls) and injecting the egg with the other chromozones it needs. These other chromozones must come from a woman. Therefore, you will have a life withou "contribution" from a man. This has been done sucessfully before with animals. I thought it was a neat little theory. I don't, however, think God will allow earth to go on long enough to let that happen. Jesus is the only perfect human being.
| QUOTE |
| What's scary is that it is possible to create another Jesus! Yipes! That's some weird stuff. It could be done by someone taking an unfirtalized female human egg (it has to be human, animals connot sin; they don't have souls) and injecting the egg with the other chromozones it needs. |
ACTUALLY I believe you would need some DNA from your main dude Jesus before that could happen.
Where would you get that from?
| QUOTE |
| Has anyone ever noticed that it doesnt really seem like Satan in the Bible does as many bad things as God does? |
Yes, I've brought that up frequently
It has seemed to me for a very long time that God is the villain of the peice...because he's one hell of a ruthless and evil hero figure At the end of the day, if we're to entertain the possibility of the bible being true, then God has murdered literally millions of people...he's drowned innocent babies in their cribs...he's ruled the world with an iron fist, and makes every other dictator in history pale into insignificance.
What's the devil done?
"Led you astray"? It's...kinda sad.
Its weird also that in the whole Adam and Eve scandal with the apple that the snake gets the bad rap.
God says don't eat the apple you'll die, Eve says cool, the snake comes and tells the TRUTH by informing her that God did in fact lie to her and the apple won't kill her, God just doesn't want your eyes open like his.
Eve believes him and the snake was right. God exiles the snake and the newlyweds as well.
This is where God speaks in the pluralization , "eyes open like ours" which is indicative of a group of Gods.
God says don't eat the apple you'll die, Eve says cool, the snake comes and tells the TRUTH by informing her that God did in fact lie to her and the apple won't kill her, God just doesn't want your eyes open like his.
Eve believes him and the snake was right. God exiles the snake and the newlyweds as well.
This is where God speaks in the pluralization , "eyes open like ours" which is indicative of a group of Gods.
Doesnt that prove that God wants us to be ignorant of the facts and blindly follow him? Satan meerly gave us knowledge and understanding and in a way, freed us.
| QUOTE |
| ACTUALLY I believe you would need some DNA from your main dude Jesus before that could happen. |
No, I was meaning we would be able to create another perfect being. I should have clarified that. I think we would be able to create another human without sin.
| QUOTE |
| At the end of the day, if we're to entertain the possibility of the bible being true, then God has murdered literally millions of people...he's drowned innocent babies in their cribs...he's ruled the world with an iron fist, and makes every other dictator in history pale into insignificance. |
Are you saying God doesn't have the right to kill His own creation if He sees fit? The pre-flood peple were described as people who had no ounce of goodness in them, all of their thoughts were set on evil things, every single one of their thoughts. If you were God and you knew if you were to let that go on and let all those "innocent"* babies grow up to be consumed by evil (andremember God has a better understanding of what evil is, it doesn't matter what you think it is or isn't) wouldn't you destroy them?
| QUOTE |
| God says don't eat the apple you'll die, Eve says cool, the snake comes and tells the TRUTH by informing her that God did in fact lie to her and the apple won't kill her, God just doesn't want your eyes open like his. |
But the satan (the snake) did lie. Adam and Eve were ignorant of evil and God said they could live in ths garden free of sin, strife, hunger, fear, anger, and disease as long as they don't eat the fruit off this one tree. This trees fruit would able adam and eve to see not only what good is but what evil is. God aready knew wha evil and good was, by the way. And she did that because the snake said that God lied when He said "if you eat the apple you will die." The snake lied to eve saying "God lied to you, if yo were to eat it you won't die." She did eat it, and she did die (after a very long life I might add). People weren't supposed to die. They were supposed to live for ever and have a relationship qwith God. But now sin has consumed man and that hs given us te ability to die. I don't see how you can be so incorrect. Everyone here takes the Bible and warps what it is saying. It's so obvious. Yeah God killed abunch of people. But He had every right to kill them. But you ar right, In one aspect, Chauncy. God originally intended us to not know the things He does. We weren't supposed to kno about sin and evil.
| QUOTE |
| Eve believes him and the snake was right. God exiles the snake and the newlyweds as well. |
Yeah, they were banished. Satan (the snake) said they (adam and eve) wouldn't die. They did. Satan (the snake) said that God was lying and that they wouldn't die. They (adam and Eve) did die. Satan (the snake) said they wouldn't die. They did. I believe that constitutes a lie on the snakes part, Chauncy.
| QUOTE |
| This is where God speaks in the pluralization , "eyes open like ours" which is indicative of a group of Gods. |
No, there is no group of Gods. There is one God who has the being of three. If you don't understand that then I am sorry. Maybe this will make sence, God created mathmatics, I don't think He would be applicable to something He created. Physics and mathmatics doens't apply to God. He is one and He is three... at the same time. Although that is a fact, it isn't important. Salvation is the main part of the Bible. It's what the Bible is all about.
| QUOTE |
| Doesnt that prove that God wants us to be ignorant of the facts and blindly follow him? Satan meerly gave us knowledge and understanding and in a way, freed us. |
lmfao. Satan freed us? Satan tempted Eve to eat the apple which gave her insight to what evil and all things bad is. God didn't want us to know about evil and sin. God intended us to remain ignorant of evil. That's a good thing. Being ignorant of evil os good. Being ignorant of sin is good. Not knowing it is good. Why do you think that knowing evil and sin is god. How could that possibly help out mankind?!? Again, it woud be better if we did not know about sin and evil.
| QUOTE |
| Yeah, they were banished. Satan (the snake) said they (adam and eve) wouldn't die. They did. Satan (the snake) said that God was lying and that they wouldn't die. They (adam and Eve) did die. Satan (the snake) said they wouldn't die. They did. I believe that constitutes a lie on the snakes part, Chauncy. |
Really now, I thought Adam died at 930 years old? Niether one of them died as a result of the apple!
Gen5:5.
And don't throw that Trinity stuff around like that explains the pluralization of Gods in the Bible. The concept of a Trinity was not PERFECTED until 325 a.d at the Council of Nicea. And you know why it was PERFECTED then?......so you could sit here today and say thats what the pluralization represents!
Good description Dr.Stranglove. You're a very smart person. Men and women were supposed to live forever in harmony with God. That was the plan. It was Satan who led man to sin and achieve the curse, not God. Because they ate the fruit, they have been cursed with death. They did die, appose to living forever in paradise. The trinity, though man hasn't perfected it, God has indeed perfected it. We just didn't understand it.
I dont trust a God that cannot even follow his own commandments. Why should I? Oh, and what about forgivness? Lmfao, all the people were sinners, every single one of them were pure evil? Hard to believe, but so is the rest of the Bible for that matter. And in a way, Satan did free us, he let us know the difference between good and bad. He is the reason people now *choose for themselves* which to be.
| QUOTE |
| Are you saying God doesn't have the right to kill His own creation if He sees fit? |
No; does a parent have a right to kill their child if they see fit? God is a murderer and a coward.
| QUOTE |
| The pre-flood peple were described as people who had no ounce of goodness in them, all of their thoughts were set on evil things, every single one of their thoughts. |
I have yet to hear tell of a human mind so evil that it could conceive of a plan to utterly wipe out the entire population of the planet. As far as "evil thoughts" go, God utterly dwarfes even the worst of human kind.
| QUOTE |
| If you were God and you knew if you were to let that go on and let all those "innocent"* babies grow up to be consumed by evil (andremember God has a better understanding of what evil is, it doesn't matter what you think it is or isn't) wouldn't you destroy them? |
I certainly would not. I would do my best to educate and teach the world, not take the coward's way out and murder them all. You say god as a "better understanding" of good and evil....assuming he does, he also supposedly set down these laws of good and evil for us to follow; that being the 10 commandments.
Every single one of which god has gone on to violate
Take the seven deadly sins also...God is also guilty of all of them.
Greed - God demands that his worshippers give over their very lives to him
Sloth - Given all the chaos the world is in, God's being pretty lazy indeed not to do something about it
Envy - Worship another diety, or follow another way of life, and God's jealousy is such that he'll send you kicking and screaming to the fiety pits of hell for all eternity.
Pride - God demands the worship of himself, to the exclusion of all other potential dieties.
Anger - God spends a lot of time being angry, and brutally murdering or torturing those who made him angry
Lust - God managed to get Mary pregnant, didn't he?
Gluttony - hmm...obviously, God isn't pigging out on chocolate (that we know of), but I suppose we can relate that back to the manner in which God demands that his followers give over their lives, and credit the entire world as being his property.
In short...you're worshiping an imperfect, greedy, angry, lustful, gluttonous, envous god
| QUOTE (Stellar @ May 17 2004, 08:53 PM) |
| I dont trust a God that cannot even follow his own commandments. Why should I? Oh, and what about forgivness? Lmfao, all the people were sinners, every single one of them were pure evil? Hard to believe, but so is the rest of the Bible for that matter. And in a way, Satan did free us, he let us know the difference between good and bad. He is the reason people now *choose for themselves* which to be. |
*Nxt2Hvn shakes head and goes off to pray for Stellar*
| QUOTE |
| At the end of the day, if we're to entertain the possibility of the bible being true, then God has murdered literally millions of people...he's drowned innocent babies in their cribs...he's ruled the world with an iron fist, and makes every other dictator in history pale into insignificance. What's the devil done? "Led you astray"? It's...kinda sad. |
so that would like make god goodly evil?!?!? or would it be evily good?!?!?!?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA i knew there was nothing "pure and good" in the universe!
| QUOTE (Nxt2Hvn @ May 17 2004, 09:05 PM) |
| *Nxt2Hvn shakes head and goes off to pray for Stellar* |
Dont pray for me. It wont help praying to some non existant or evil god.
Just a quick note, I never said I support Satan and his biblical portrayal of being evil and such...but going on the actions alone, God has done more harm than Satan. I'm just acknowledging that... and I dont believe in any of those characters
What about what Jesus said though - Love thy neighbour, persecute the thief nor the informer you know not why he does it. You can't really argue with most of what Jesus said.
And if a man that bright believed in God then why can't you?
I wasn't sure until recently, which is steep for a Catholic to admit, but circumstances happened to convince me. I'm not thick, nor naive, nor particularly sheltered and most assuredly not easily duped, and I am convinced, from experience, he exists. How can you explain that one?
And if a man that bright believed in God then why can't you?
I wasn't sure until recently, which is steep for a Catholic to admit, but circumstances happened to convince me. I'm not thick, nor naive, nor particularly sheltered and most assuredly not easily duped, and I am convinced, from experience, he exists. How can you explain that one?
Anything can exist in your mind TKR9. The mind is so powerful, that if I think hard enough that my stomach hurts, it begins to hurt.
You take my above message how you want it. But others will tell you, they believe in flying pink bunnies, just to prove a point to you.
The problem is no one here, want's to admit to BLIND faith.
You can't argue against faith. Because faith requires, no physical proof of what you believe.
You take my above message how you want it. But others will tell you, they believe in flying pink bunnies, just to prove a point to you.
The problem is no one here, want's to admit to BLIND faith.
You can't argue against faith. Because faith requires, no physical proof of what you believe.
The words of Jesus were not a work of genius!
Alot of what he is alleged to have said is common sense, and the rules of decent society.
I did not learn this code of honor from Jesus, yet I'm sure alot of what I hold as true and righteous is similar to what Jesus stipulated.
I just realize that you can live by a code of honor stand up for whats right and help your fellow without deifying anything.
But thats just me.
Alot of what he is alleged to have said is common sense, and the rules of decent society.
I did not learn this code of honor from Jesus, yet I'm sure alot of what I hold as true and righteous is similar to what Jesus stipulated.
I just realize that you can live by a code of honor stand up for whats right and help your fellow without deifying anything.
But thats just me.
Faith yes, but not blind. I believed AFTER the effect, not before.
And you cannot make your stomach hurt by thinking about it, nor can you see flying pink bunnies by thinking hard enough that you can. For reasons I will not go into I have tried such experiments
with quite singular failure. I can say with assurity that I cannot make what I believe to be real appear as such merely by believing in it. I'm too grounded for that and have NEVER seen any evidence for it. Circumstances I cannot go into made his non existence more improbable than his existence so I now believe in him.
What the question is here is that just as I have, all right, let us say, faith, that HE does exist, then you, and other agnostics or aetheists, equally presume HE does not.
Blind faith on both sides perhaps? You and I could be equally wrong, and David Icke and his lizard master rulers might have a point.
And you cannot make your stomach hurt by thinking about it, nor can you see flying pink bunnies by thinking hard enough that you can. For reasons I will not go into I have tried such experiments
with quite singular failure. I can say with assurity that I cannot make what I believe to be real appear as such merely by believing in it. I'm too grounded for that and have NEVER seen any evidence for it. Circumstances I cannot go into made his non existence more improbable than his existence so I now believe in him.What the question is here is that just as I have, all right, let us say, faith, that HE does exist, then you, and other agnostics or aetheists, equally presume HE does not.
Blind faith on both sides perhaps? You and I could be equally wrong, and David Icke and his lizard master rulers might have a point.
TKR9, I had a cousin who could make her self sick just so she wouldn't go to school, how did she do it she kept thinking to herself she was going to puke until it happened.
| QUOTE |
| And you cannot make your stomach hurt by thinking about it, nor can you see flying pink bunnies by thinking hard enough that you can. For reasons I will not go into I have tried such experiments with quite singular failure |
Well, I'll tell you what Chrisitians tell me. You just didn't have enough FAITH in your experiments, see in the back of your mind while performing these experiments, you probably kept telling yourself this isn't going to happen. That small amount of doubt can ruin the whole thing. What I just told you is the same thing believers tell me when they want me to find God.
You're right we could both be wrong. However I refuse to worship the God's I have read about, espcially the Christian God. TKR9 I've been on the light side, but I had my own awakening, now I've joined the Darkside.
I don't have FAITH he doesn't exist. There's just not any physical evidence that tells me HE DOES. Does this make sense.
For the millionth time, Science does not require faith, because it shows you PHYSICAL evidence of it's findings. It is calculated and it takes time. Funny I was reading that the person who basically came up with the Theory of the Big Bang was Lemaitre, a Christian Scientist. He believed the Universe formed from a single Molecule. However since then we've discovered Sub atomic particles, etc.. Even smaller than then one he used for his theory. Scientists are still working on that, however the formation of the universe does not SCREAM Intelligent Design.
Interesting premise. (re. the puking try finger down the throat, worked for my pal before PE when we were doomed to play hockey) But at the time I did want to believe it (re. flying bunny experiments) so that doesn't wash. I was ten years old. One doesn't doubt at ten. Unicorns exist when one is ten, without doubt, actually, speaking of which it was unicorns I was trying to see. Lots of gorgeous white (grey but let's not get pedantic) horses at shows and stud farms but not unicorns and D 
t I looked!
As for the Christians trying to convert you I don't go that route. You don't believe and I ain't gonna convince you but I love debating the subject to while away a few spare half hours. My best conversion tactic is to say err on the side of caution in regard to the afterlife. If you were right, and it does exist, you're happy you were right and don't fear death. If you were wrong who's to know?
I'm science neutral. I'm a political scientist and deal with the art of the possible so I'm open minded. As for 'physical' evidence you can't wait for that to believe in what you need to in life, otherwise life becomes extraordinarily boring. Have you actually ever been to Iceland? If not how can you be sure it exists? Is the cat in the box in the box at all? Assuming concrete evidence assumes the world is as you experience it and as Huntingdon pointed out you can never be certain of anything!
Incidentally I did see a unicorn. I asked to see one in the morning and there it was, in my dream that very night. Not the same thing though as actually seeing it and I can differentiate.
t I looked!As for the Christians trying to convert you I don't go that route. You don't believe and I ain't gonna convince you but I love debating the subject to while away a few spare half hours. My best conversion tactic is to say err on the side of caution in regard to the afterlife. If you were right, and it does exist, you're happy you were right and don't fear death. If you were wrong who's to know?
I'm science neutral. I'm a political scientist and deal with the art of the possible so I'm open minded. As for 'physical' evidence you can't wait for that to believe in what you need to in life, otherwise life becomes extraordinarily boring. Have you actually ever been to Iceland? If not how can you be sure it exists? Is the cat in the box in the box at all? Assuming concrete evidence assumes the world is as you experience it and as Huntingdon pointed out you can never be certain of anything!
Incidentally I did see a unicorn. I asked to see one in the morning and there it was, in my dream that very night. Not the same thing though as actually seeing it and I can differentiate.
You can say that again..........lol
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| In short...you're worshiping an imperfect, greedy, angry, lustful, gluttonous, envous god |
I think this thread has served its purpose. It has allowed the atheists the opportunity to bash the religion they loath so much.
I vote to close the thread. This forum is no longer being well served when childish, immature little minds think it is cool to bash the God that myself and so many others do indeed worship.
We have now seen the warped thinking of the atheist mind...how much more do we need to indulge ourselves before we get their point?
I have a few rules to live by for the forum: Don't bash my mother, Don't bash my family, and don't bash my God.
Now please all you little minded atheists ...go away somewhere and look for that rock you crawled out from under...........
This thread is one of the most popular. Why, because people like looking into these fundamental questions and its intellectually stimulating to debate the intangible, far more so than debating stuff we know has already been answered.
I for one, as a Catholic and believer, like to see why people don't believe and I like to address their points. We are not here to simply sit in church and say hi. We have to answer for God and I don't mind doing it, in fact I thrive on it and will defend him to the core.
It's tough and it can be insulting, I know, at Uni I got so much stick I really doubted everything I knew. But there's no need to get insulting back. They are merely unenlightened, and referring to rocks and warping is fuel for their fire and a bit unChristian. Forgive em and try to give constructive debate where there are holes in theirs. There's an opportunity to understand your own faith better. Debating it allows you to clarify your own beliefs and share them with people who think you are deluded but who you in turn believe are misguided, which is the whole point of debates!
Besides which I wouldn't be a POLITICAL scientist if I didn't like debates. If this thread upsets there's no need to read it. I believe in God but when people get at him like to counter the argument, discuss why. I would like to continue to and ending the thread would be a lost opportunity for interesting discussion.
I for one, as a Catholic and believer, like to see why people don't believe and I like to address their points. We are not here to simply sit in church and say hi. We have to answer for God and I don't mind doing it, in fact I thrive on it and will defend him to the core.
It's tough and it can be insulting, I know, at Uni I got so much stick I really doubted everything I knew. But there's no need to get insulting back. They are merely unenlightened, and referring to rocks and warping is fuel for their fire and a bit unChristian. Forgive em and try to give constructive debate where there are holes in theirs. There's an opportunity to understand your own faith better. Debating it allows you to clarify your own beliefs and share them with people who think you are deluded but who you in turn believe are misguided, which is the whole point of debates!
Besides which I wouldn't be a POLITICAL scientist if I didn't like debates. If this thread upsets there's no need to read it. I believe in God but when people get at him like to counter the argument, discuss why. I would like to continue to and ending the thread would be a lost opportunity for interesting discussion.
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| I vote to close the thread. This forum is no longer being well served when childish, immature little minds think it is cool to bash the God that myself and so many others do indeed worship. |
This thread should stay open, for anyone who wants to come in and check it out, join in and share their views!!!
We all seem to be respectful and passionate, which makes for lively debate, as it should be!
We ARE society, and these debates need to take place in SOCIETY, but we don't get the chance to hang out in person so this is the best place to take the temperature of society. We are pretty diverse here which is a most refreshing arena!
hey, joc, you dont like it? Leave the thread. Theres no reason to close it. We are not intent on bashing god, we are sharing our views. And you know what? If Seraphina has no right to call god that, you have no right to call god Good, Pure, Perfect, or even imply that he exists cuz it could in a way bash another persons beliefs. What, whenever people start to stray from "God = good, god=great, god=pefect", we should close the thread to prevent them from talking about it? Thats oppressive. Calling us little minded? I could just as easily if not more easily come up with insults towards you because of your belief, but I'm too tired to get into it now and dont want to support a flame war which'll get the thread closed. We are not all unintelligent because we dont believe in what you believe in. Now you go off and pray to your "god" and believe in the toothe fairy and unicornes and my magic green gnome theory while I go and live my life, deal?
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| We all seem to be respectful and passionate, which makes for lively debate, as it should be! We ARE society, and these debates need to take place in SOCIETY, but we don't get the chance to hang out in person so this is the best place to take the temperature of society. We are pretty diverse here which is a most refreshing arena! |
I don't see anything respectful about bashing my religion.
This isn't a debate....the thread has become a stomping ground for God hating Atheists....................
Bashing your religion? We are not trying to belittle your religion, we are simply exchanging thoughts and opinions and learning about it. Just because what we believe is the opposite of what you believe doesnt make it wrong and it doesnt mean we should stop it. See, I wish kids were taught this in religion class also... if they have to be taught religion, it should also be made evident that god sins. And you know why the atheists here seem to have the most territory? because they can conclusivly proove that there is no scientific evidence of God.
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| This isn't a debate....the thread has become a stomping ground for God hating Atheists.................... |
Then maybe this is a ground you should not tread.
You could stay and discuss things with us, as we have been. But you would probably need to rid of the emotion first.......see when you let emotion cloud your vision my friend you are lost.....just a hint.
Hope you stick around.
So you are saying that fat people have an emotion problem and should not be offended when someone makes fat jokes on this forum?
So you are saying that Aslan has an emotional problem and should not worry about offending Muslims when I 'blow up' a terrorist Muslim in gif format?
So you are saying that I have an emotional problem because I am offended at the tone of some of the blatant and proud atheist God haters?
This forum is not all encompassing....there are other websites to go to if you want to be free to say anything you want to about another persons religion.
Why don't you start an Ala is Satan thread and see how far you get with that one?
So you are saying that Aslan has an emotional problem and should not worry about offending Muslims when I 'blow up' a terrorist Muslim in gif format?
So you are saying that I have an emotional problem because I am offended at the tone of some of the blatant and proud atheist God haters?
This forum is not all encompassing....there are other websites to go to if you want to be free to say anything you want to about another persons religion.
Why don't you start an Ala is Satan thread and see how far you get with that one?
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| We have now seen the warped thinking of the atheist mind...how much more do we need to indulge ourselves before we get their point? |
Joc, you seem to misunderstand...I don't believe in God, and therefore am utterly incapable of hating him or liking him; I will admit to hating organised religion, and the premise upon which it is based, but that's another matter.
The point it was trying to point out are the infinite contradictions in your god, and your holy texts, and all the ground inbetween. Just as it is the purpose here of thiests to argue against, and try to find flaws in what I believe to be the truth, so too am I trying to point out the mistakes and flaws in their own side of the arguement.
It's what people do in a debate.
If you're utterly unable to take critisism of your beliefs, than I would suggest not reading threads like this. I'll admit that I certainly do push the envelope as far as it'll go, but I do so because my own veiws are being attacked just as violently. I hear constant calls to provide proof of evolution...proof that is then provided, and utterly ignored...so I ask that theists explain some of the problems of their own beliefs, and why we should accept something so flawed as a substitute for logic.
If you're incapable of joining the debate without lashing out in childish anger, then simply don't join it. There are other people here who, perhaps, are more willing to try and provide an answer.
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| So you are saying that fat people have an emotion problem and should not be offended when someone makes fat jokes on this forum? |
If anyone has an emotional problem then of course they will be offended. And no-ones weight should be made fun of!.....some don't have a choice in their size.......people do choose a religion though.
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| So you are saying that Aslan has an emotional problem and should not worry about offending Muslims when I 'blow up' a terrorist Muslim in gif format? |
Wouldn't know about that.
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| This forum is not all encompassingthere are other websites to go to if you want to be free to say anything you want to about another persons religio |
The topic is so titled for a reason.
No, what I think he's alluding to is certain level of tolerances, Joc. This subject will certainly affect different people different ways, depending on the strength of their convictions. It has been allowed to continue because some people actually see a purpose for it, but everyone is being reminded to conduct themselves decently and civily, or it won't remain open much longer. This includes tempering your opinions as to the 'true' nature of this certain diety, you needn't constantly remind everyone just how cruel and heartless you feel this being was/is, the point was understood the first several dozen times it was mentioned. Let's make an attempt to keep your comments and or opinions a bit more tactful in the future.
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