Full Version: Jesus
| QUOTE |
| If you're incapable of joining the debate without lashing out in childish anger, then simply don't join it. There are other people here who, perhaps, are more willing to try and provide an answer. |
It isn't childish anger Seraphina....and I am not even angry...I am just offended at how far you push the envelope....sometimes. Personally I like you. You are intelligent, spunky, and have a mind of your own. But some of the things you say are ...in my opinion... over the line. My opinion. Honestly, religion and politics, probably the two most over-talked and imflammatory topics of all time. Now go to my website and order a CD!
heh...*nods gracefully* now that, Mr Joc, is good grace...in return, I'll try and argue whatever I have to say a little more...defensivly. However, there are still a great many questions that have yet to go unanswered by the creationist camp. If there's a call for a little less zeal, then we'll proceed without it...but I still did have questions very thinly veiled in that previous blasting
In any event, Joc, I shall respect your good form...I would give you the six horsemen seal of approval, but I'm not sure you'd like that
...just bear in mind, we do have common ground in what we like to debate about. We'll meet again, Mr Joc...oh yes...we'll meet again 
In any event, Joc, I shall respect your good form...I would give you the six horsemen seal of approval, but I'm not sure you'd like that
...just bear in mind, we do have common ground in what we like to debate about. We'll meet again, Mr Joc...oh yes...we'll meet again
| QUOTE |
| I would give you the six horsemen seal of approval, but I'm not sure you'd like that |
Considers any approval from her Majesty a humbling and exalting experience
*materializes*
Hmmmm, this thread is still going? Meh, why not?
Joc, I undestand your reasoning for voting to close this thread but it really should stay open for those with actual opinions and those who won't bash anything. Well now, like all other 'god exist vs. god doesn't exist' threads (which this one has come to be) there are main contenders. Please forgive me if I assume incorrectly but on the pro-god side there's me (and more, I just forget there names) and on the con-god side there's seriphina and chauncy (forgive me if there are others I have forgotten to mension). The main argument I am hearing against God is that He is sinning. Let me just remind everyone what sin is. Sin is going against God's will. How can God go against His own will? The ten commandments and all that other good stuff was what God wanted us as humans to do. He never once said:
"Alright everyone, here's the deal, let's all (including Myself) follow these cool new rules I just made up, woohoo!".
What would be more accurate to paraphrase what He wanted would be this:
"Alright, humans, this is how it goes... these (ten commandments and all the other stuff) are the rules, if any of you break one that constitutes a sin. If anyone sins, even the slightest fib, then that person will die and burn in hell! But, I will make an exeption, seeing how you all were born with a sin nature, Ok just believe that Jesus dies on the cross as payment in place of your sins. A perfect being (Jesus, b/c He never sinned) will die a death that He shouldn't die for al you guys who have sinned. All you hve to do is believe that and your in Heaven. Woohoo!"
In short, God has the right to kill whomever He wants. Just know the death will be deserved. I do have a question for Seriphina and Chauncy and all the other athiests here. Why are you all so passionate about trying to proove God wrong? All you athiests will back up your arguments, cleverly, with Bible verses and think you have found a loop-hole. Or you will point out some historical fact that supposedly "prooves" God doesn't exist. Please answer me this question, why are you so pssionate about prooving He doesn't exist??
Furtherore, If you truely believe God doesn't exist then go out and rape, kill, steal, eat, and kill some more. That's the only loggical thing to do. I mean If you believe that God doesn't exist then sin also is a figment of humanities mind. You are wasting what "precious" time you have in your meaningless bleak existance that won't mean f*** in 2000 years. Go out and do things to please the body right now. Give yourself what you want now. If God doesnt exist, that's what you would do. You wouldn't devise clever traps and try to trick believers and "proove" God doesn't exist. You're just wastig time!
Chauncy, about the trinity... who cares? It is just a minor detail of the big picture. God sometimes referrs to Himself as "I" or as "We" who care how He referrs to Himself? Why even argue about that? I mean, I can't even fully believe that.
Secondly, you all say "...and if we oppoe Him than he willtorture us and bring us pain..". Uhm, alright, don't you think you should do as He says then? I mean God is certainly not an Evil God. Is the judge evil when he finds a man guilty and sentences him to death? God is just at times (e.i. setting the wages of sin as death). Yet, ironically, He can also be very merciful (i.e. sending Jesus to die instead of us). God is the ultimate authority. If you go against Him, then of course you will be punished, what do you all expect?!
Then, loggically (as logical as humanity can get) this God I am talking about can just whipe it all away and take all the si and suffering and all that good stuff out of the picture, right? Yes, He can do that. Why doesn't He? *shrugs* I don't know. That's a question I will be sure to ask Him when I am able to understand the answer.
In conclusion... *dematerializes*
Hmmmm, this thread is still going? Meh, why not?
Joc, I undestand your reasoning for voting to close this thread but it really should stay open for those with actual opinions and those who won't bash anything. Well now, like all other 'god exist vs. god doesn't exist' threads (which this one has come to be) there are main contenders. Please forgive me if I assume incorrectly but on the pro-god side there's me (and more, I just forget there names) and on the con-god side there's seriphina and chauncy (forgive me if there are others I have forgotten to mension). The main argument I am hearing against God is that He is sinning. Let me just remind everyone what sin is. Sin is going against God's will. How can God go against His own will? The ten commandments and all that other good stuff was what God wanted us as humans to do. He never once said:
"Alright everyone, here's the deal, let's all (including Myself) follow these cool new rules I just made up, woohoo!".
What would be more accurate to paraphrase what He wanted would be this:
"Alright, humans, this is how it goes... these (ten commandments and all the other stuff) are the rules, if any of you break one that constitutes a sin. If anyone sins, even the slightest fib, then that person will die and burn in hell! But, I will make an exeption, seeing how you all were born with a sin nature, Ok just believe that Jesus dies on the cross as payment in place of your sins. A perfect being (Jesus, b/c He never sinned) will die a death that He shouldn't die for al you guys who have sinned. All you hve to do is believe that and your in Heaven. Woohoo!"
In short, God has the right to kill whomever He wants. Just know the death will be deserved. I do have a question for Seriphina and Chauncy and all the other athiests here. Why are you all so passionate about trying to proove God wrong? All you athiests will back up your arguments, cleverly, with Bible verses and think you have found a loop-hole. Or you will point out some historical fact that supposedly "prooves" God doesn't exist. Please answer me this question, why are you so pssionate about prooving He doesn't exist??
Furtherore, If you truely believe God doesn't exist then go out and rape, kill, steal, eat, and kill some more. That's the only loggical thing to do. I mean If you believe that God doesn't exist then sin also is a figment of humanities mind. You are wasting what "precious" time you have in your meaningless bleak existance that won't mean f*** in 2000 years. Go out and do things to please the body right now. Give yourself what you want now. If God doesnt exist, that's what you would do. You wouldn't devise clever traps and try to trick believers and "proove" God doesn't exist. You're just wastig time!
Chauncy, about the trinity... who cares? It is just a minor detail of the big picture. God sometimes referrs to Himself as "I" or as "We" who care how He referrs to Himself? Why even argue about that? I mean, I can't even fully believe that.
Secondly, you all say "...and if we oppoe Him than he willtorture us and bring us pain..". Uhm, alright, don't you think you should do as He says then? I mean God is certainly not an Evil God. Is the judge evil when he finds a man guilty and sentences him to death? God is just at times (e.i. setting the wages of sin as death). Yet, ironically, He can also be very merciful (i.e. sending Jesus to die instead of us). God is the ultimate authority. If you go against Him, then of course you will be punished, what do you all expect?!
Then, loggically (as logical as humanity can get) this God I am talking about can just whipe it all away and take all the si and suffering and all that good stuff out of the picture, right? Yes, He can do that. Why doesn't He? *shrugs* I don't know. That's a question I will be sure to ask Him when I am able to understand the answer.
In conclusion... *dematerializes*
| QUOTE |
| Or you will point out some historical fact that supposedly "prooves" God doesn't exist. Please answer me this question, why are you so pssionate about prooving He doesn't exist?? |
You may as well ask why you're trying to hard to prove he DOES exist? Why should we have less right to defend our own set of beliefs than you do, simply because you believe we'll go to hell for doing so?
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| A perfect being (Jesus, b/c He never sinned) will die a death that He shouldn't die for al you guys who have sinned. |
Jesus did sin; he frequently displayed anger and pride, and is believed to have had a wife and children (the origonal sin no less).
| QUOTE |
| Furtherore, If you truely believe God doesn't exist then go out and rape, kill, steal, eat, and kill some more. That's the only loggical thing to do. I mean If you believe that God doesn't exist then sin also is a figment of humanities mind. |
You know, I've never understood this arguement...believing in God does not mean you somehow have a higher morale structure than everyone else. Society determines what is morally wrong to you, not your religion. If you went by what the bible believed, you'd currently be supporting slavery, completely disregarding animal rights, the rights of women, and propose the slaughter of homosexuals...
Just because we don't believe in god, doesn't mean we lack the capacity to understand the difference between right and wrong; as has been pointed out, more death has taken place in the name of religion than any other cause, so I believe the point you're trying to make is a badly thought out one at best.
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| If you go against Him, then of course you will be punished, what do you all expect?! |
I expect a being who is supposedly above reproach to understand the concept of mercy instead of endless wrath...every single story in the bible involved death, suffering, loss of family or belongings, or other such acts of God hurting someone who has commited absolutely no crime.
However, we've been asked to stay away from that area, and so I shall
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| Why doesn't He? |
That's a question I ask myself many many times...since the bible has told us over and over again how God was never shy about interfering in the affairs of Earth....where is he now? Since we've been able to record history on a level that did not count anything from a thunderstorm to a flood as a sign from God (since we've learned what actually causes them), God hasn't shown his face...
To me, that would suggest he isn't there at all....it's certainly the logical conclusion to draw.
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| All you athiests will back up your arguments, cleverly, with Bible verses and think you have found a loop-hole. Or you will point out some historical fact that supposedly "prooves" God doesn't exist. |
The "loop-holes" aren't cited to prove God's non-existence, but done in rebuttal to the claim of inerrancy. Its because a literal interpretation of scripture is what most christians use for scientific claims. Indeed they do not doubt the evidence based on the scientific merit, but as a result of this literal interpretation.
| QUOTE |
| Furtherore, If you truely believe God doesn't exist then go out and rape, kill, steal, eat, and kill some more. That's the only loggical thing to do |
No its not the logical thing to do, its the wrong thing! The reason why we wouldn't do that is because morality is not only found in religion! as some christians claim.
| QUOTE |
| Chauncy, about the trinity... who cares? It is just a minor detail of the big picture. God sometimes referrs to Himself as "I" or as "We" who care how He referrs to Himself? Why even argue about that? I mean, I can't even fully believe that |
I state that because I believe that at one time this religion was polytheistic, then changed to monthiestic. Much the same way Ahkenaten did in Egypt. The pluralization is the reminents of this fact.
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| Uhm, alright, don't you think you should do as He says then? |
Uhm no.....he is morally wrong!.....he was created by man and this is why he is just as fallible as man. I must say with confidence that if there was a God then many of us here are infinetly more just than he!
As for the weight thing, if we talked about how fat people are more likely to get sick, and arent as healthy as slim people, should they get bad at us? We're not insulting them, we're talking about the truth. Just as what Seraphina and a few others were doing. Edit; removed derogatory comment.
Stellar, what part of 'conduct yourselves civily and tactfully' are you having a problem understanding?
Stellar, what part of 'conduct yourselves civily and tactfully' are you having a problem understanding?
*sucks coz I am christian* Doh!
Alright, we are both not going to change our minds smply because the other sides comes up with more facts and opinions. You guys have heard what I beliebe we came from, now tell me, whre do you think humans come from?
Alright, we are both not going to change our minds smply because the other sides comes up with more facts and opinions. You guys have heard what I beliebe we came from, now tell me, whre do you think humans come from?
| QUOTE |
| You guys have heard what I beliebe we came from, now tell me, whre do you think humans come from? |
*dramatic pause*
....
....That...answer should be quite obvious for anyone who's been reading any of our posts since the start of this, or any other thread on the matter. We believe human beings, and indeed all organisms, are the result of evolution.
| QUOTE (Stellar @ May 18 2004, 01:00 PM) |
| Edit; removed derogatory comment. Stellar, what part of 'conduct yourselves civily and tactfully' are you having a problem understanding? |
Sorry Magikman, didnt get down to your post when I posted that, I had to go to bed and felt the need to post a reply to his and strike back at him for insulting atheists.
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you needn't constantly remind everyone just how cruel and heartless you feel this being was/is |
Same goes for talking about how good and perfect he was/is too, right?
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| Alright, we are both not going to change our minds smply because the other sides comes up with more facts and opinions. You guys have heard what I beliebe we came from, now tell mewhre do you think humans come from |
Humans come from their parents, I came from my Mom
| QUOTE (DrStrangelove @ May 18 2004, 06:31 PM) |
| You guys have heard what I beliebe we came from, now tell me, whre do you think humans come from? |
Ive got a question for you... why is it so hard for you to believe that the particles which caused a big bang kinda creation of the universe which then caused abiogenesis which created life which evolved into what we have today?
Uhh, per Stellar's request I've deleted my post. Just cause I'm curious as to what he's going to say
A meteorite with the right kind of microbes could have sparked the inferno of life.
Especially if it impacted in the ocean, this seems likely as well when we look at the life that clings to thermal vents in the ocean.
http://seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov/OCEAN_PLANET/...L/ps_vents.html
We also know of microbes that can exist in the most severe of environments, processing gasses like sulfur and surviving, they're called Extremophiles.
http://www.spaceref.com/redirect.html?id=0...gy/extreme.html
And we also know that life can survive with no sunlight and with little oxygen, these creatures have even evolved to create their own light, Bioilluminesence.
http://www.biolum.org/
It would seem that the tenacity of life its self screams evolution. When you doubt this tenacity and voracity of life in support of religion you are in essence shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to any sort of debate.
Especially if it impacted in the ocean, this seems likely as well when we look at the life that clings to thermal vents in the ocean.
http://seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov/OCEAN_PLANET/...L/ps_vents.html
We also know of microbes that can exist in the most severe of environments, processing gasses like sulfur and surviving, they're called Extremophiles.
http://www.spaceref.com/redirect.html?id=0...gy/extreme.html
And we also know that life can survive with no sunlight and with little oxygen, these creatures have even evolved to create their own light, Bioilluminesence.
http://www.biolum.org/
It would seem that the tenacity of life its self screams evolution. When you doubt this tenacity and voracity of life in support of religion you are in essence shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to any sort of debate.
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| Anyone religious want to answer my question.... Why is it so hard to believe that the Universe was created by the big bang... and if that can happen, why cant evolution and abiogenesis happen too? Whats hard to understand? |
It is indeed plausible...(all of the above). There is however a flaw in the theory.
The same flaw is found in the Creation belief.
It is thus: One cannot begin to fathom how 'something appeared from nothing'.
Go back to the nano-second before the 'big bang'. What ignited it? Further more, where did the molecular structures come from? Did they appear out of the nothingness that was? Or did God create them?
Go back to the nano-second before the 'Let there be light' command. Where did God come from? Did he appear out of the great nothingness as well?
The ability to comprehend 'something from nothing' is not within the human psyche.
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| The ability to comprehend 'something from nothing' is not within the human psyche. |
Well this is absolutely untrue.
Einstien said it best.
"The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is at all comprehensible. "
Albert Einstein
| QUOTE |
| Well this is absolutely untrue. |
Then please enlighten us all Chauncy with your expanation of how something appeared from nothing.
| QUOTE (joc @ May 19 2004, 03:02 AM) | ||
Then please enlighten us all Chauncy with your expanation of how something appeared from nothing. |
He never said he comprehends it, he was hinting that some might comprehend it.
Either way, I'm glad you didnt just say "because where did the particles come from?" and left it at that like I was expecting someone to say (They said it on another forum, then I thanked him for disproving God by that logic, and he stopped posting in the thread
)
Well quite simply joc, we have established that something can't come from nothing. so the logical conclusion is that something came from something...right?
My post : Posted on May 18 2004, 09:29 PM, explained where that something could have came from as far as life is concerned.
The Big Bang that people theorize started the universe I don't buy it.....maybe a Bang created our galaxy which is generally excepted. The universe's origin I don't think exists.
We are so used and trained to think with the restriction of beginnings and ends, births and deaths, stop and start. this does not mean the Universe that contains these restrictions abides by them.
When comprehending the idea of an infinite universe these restrictions should be left at the door.
The difficulty comprehending this complexity should not lead a person to claim supernatural causes, because the complexity is in fact comprehendable!
My post : Posted on May 18 2004, 09:29 PM, explained where that something could have came from as far as life is concerned.
The Big Bang that people theorize started the universe I don't buy it.....maybe a Bang created our galaxy which is generally excepted. The universe's origin I don't think exists.
We are so used and trained to think with the restriction of beginnings and ends, births and deaths, stop and start. this does not mean the Universe that contains these restrictions abides by them.
When comprehending the idea of an infinite universe these restrictions should be left at the door.
The difficulty comprehending this complexity should not lead a person to claim supernatural causes, because the complexity is in fact comprehendable!
*Karate CHOP!*
I guess all there is to say now is the only reason I believe in God is faith. Just faith. No proof. Now, I will stop bugging you intellectual athiests with my heathan christian views and go back to Nessie, Bigfoot, an the Chupa.
(By the way... has anyone noticed that this thread is no longer about Jesus?)
I guess all there is to say now is the only reason I believe in God is faith. Just faith. No proof. Now, I will stop bugging you intellectual athiests with my heathan christian views and go back to Nessie, Bigfoot, an the Chupa.
(By the way... has anyone noticed that this thread is no longer about Jesus?)
Maybe the universe isnt infinite though, maybe theres many universes out there, kindof like a galaxy but on a bigger scale... The shape of the universe is theorized to be one that no matter what direction you go in, sooner or later you'll end up back in the starting point. My question is then, how do you get out of this universe? Another dimension is probably needed... just like on earth, if you go north, south, east, west, you'll end up back to where you started. How do you get off? stop thinking in 2 dimensions and think 3, go up. But now thinking in 3 dimensions is not enough to find out the Universes shape... and I dont think that thinking in 4d will help neither because the 4th dimension is time... so could it possibly need a 5 dimensional understanding or higher to figure it out?
| QUOTE |
| Maybe the universe isnt infinite though, maybe theres many universes out there, kindof like a galaxy but on a bigger scale |
Many universes attached either my dimension or any other means would just be part of THE universe, in my opinion
The dimension or unvirse that we enter upon death I'm sure would have different properties as our universe or dimension does. BUT being part of the same structure would also have similar properties....a "Universal" property.
This universal property or law is being investigated I believe as "String Theory" check this out dude you'll like it. http://superstringtheory.com/
Also these other dimensions or universes must have a common law or property because it is very obvious that these individual dimensions intermingal at times, especially the dimension that we enter upon death and its seemingly frequent tresspass into this realm.
| QUOTE |
| When comprehending the idea of an infinite universe these restrictions should be left at the door. The difficulty comprehending this complexity should not lead a person to claim supernatural causes, because the complexity is in fact comprehendable! |
The logical thought process does not concur with your statements. We know for a fact that molecular destruction occurs. We have detonated enough atomic devices to know that the atomic structure is destroyed. There are at least one and possibly more man made atomic structures that appear on the elements chart. That they only were stable for a fraction of a second does not mean that we did not create them. The logical assumption is that atomic structures have not always been and did have a beginning. Any serious contemplation of the beginning of life is invalid from the start without taking into account the beginning of matter.
Who says we enter a new universe/dimension when we die? We need a new word for this too... universe doesnt cut it since if a universe is finite and theres other ones (remember, I dont know how they figured this out but someone proposed that maybe different universes=different laws of physics) which are seperated from this. I call everything that encompases the universe and whatever encompases that if there is something, space.
| QUOTE |
| The logical assumption is that atomic structures have not always been and did have a beginning. Any serious contemplation of the beginning of life is invalid from the start without taking into account the beginning of matter. |
Your absolutely right. BUT you so want to prove a beginning, so logically this would tell us that we have not learned all the laws of nature yet, hence the voracity of the sciences in our age. We have not known things in the past, things that seemed unfathomable, yet we seemed to find the clues and discern the truth.
Given this fact how can we sit there and claim a Creator just because we have not discerned all the facts. Your calling this "scientific discovery waiting to happen"....God.
In fact the survival of Creationism can be solely attributed to the fact that we have not yet learned all there is to learn from our environment.....yet this does not mean that learning is not taking place, nor does it mean that it is not excellerated more now than ever, nor does that mean that we will not make new discoveries.
The laws of nature as we know them....are just that!.....as WE know them thus far.
| QUOTE |
| remember, I dont know how they figured this out but someone proposed that maybe different universes=different laws of physics) |
As I said earlier, I'm sure these other dimensions do have different properties and laws.....but they quite probably in my opinion also have a commonality. It is this commonality that we are on the verge now more than ever about to exploit.
The idea and concept of "Wormholes" may illustrate this commonality as well.
http://www.hypography.com/hypography.cfm?i...901084938453219
| QUOTE |
| Given this fact how can we sit there and claim a Creator just because we have not discerned all the facts. |
As previously stated it is not possible for our intellect as humans to discern all the facts.
What we do know is that having a sound understanding of the principles of the universe does little to calm a hurting heart. Knowing the ins and outs of evolutionary theory does little to change the pain and sorrow of a grieving mother who has lost her child. Believing that the Bang was Big and without Conscious attention does little to change the chronic alchoholic into a productive member of society.
| QUOTE |
| What we do know is that having a sound understanding of the principles of the universe does little to calm a hurting heart. Knowing the ins and outs of evolutionary theory does little to change the pain and sorrow of a grieving mother who has lost her child. Believing that the Bang was Big and without Conscious attention does little to change the chronic alchoholic into a productive member of society. |
Pack your bags we're going on a guilt trip?
OR are you saying that your whole reason for attacking the science that exists to day is founded on the fact that it doesn't sugar-coat life or set your heart at ease.....see I thought you thought your beliefs were founded in scientific concrete....my mistake I suppose.
| QUOTE |
| OR are you saying that your whole reason for attacking the science that exists to day is founded on the fact that it doesn't sugar-coat life or set your heart at ease.....see I thought you thought your beliefs were founded in scientific concrete....my mistake I suppose. |
What attack?
My premise is thus: A. We haven't the mental apptitude to understand how matter arrived from a Universe previously containing no matter.
and
B. We haven't the mental apptitude to understand how God arrived from a Universe previously containing no God and no matter.
therefore
C. A conclusive understanding of the beginning of the Universe is not possible.
therefore
D. Bickering over creation/evolution is just that........bickering.
because in the end
E. Life does need to be 'sugar coated' my friend. If you don't think so you just haven't lived long enough.
The next time you attempt to comfort a grieving family member or friend just
tell them that birds came from dinosaurs and that will make them feel much better.
| QUOTE (joc @ May 19 2004, 04:56 AM) |
| What we do know is that having a sound understanding of the principles of the universe does little to calm a hurting heart. Knowing the ins and outs of evolutionary theory does little to change the pain and sorrow of a grieving mother who has lost her child. Believing that the Bang was Big and without Conscious attention does little to change the chronic alchoholic into a productive member of society. |
So? Just because they want to believe in God and think its easier to doesnt make it right.
| QUOTE |
| The next time you attempt to comfort a grieving family member or friend just tell them that birds came from dinosaurs and that will make them feel much better. |
How bout I tell them that everything is going to be ok. I as part of your family and because I love you will offer as much strength as necessary to help over come this tragedy. That the best thing we can do for the deceased is remember them for the joy they gave us and do so with a smile on our face.....raise my glass and say "This dead relative was one Helluva guy"!!!!
| QUOTE |
| The next time you attempt to comfort a grieving family member or friend just tell them that birds came from dinosaurs and that will make them feel much better. |
what a moronic comment
| QUOTE |
| How bout I tell them that everything is going to be ok. I as part of your family and because I love you will offer as much strength as necessary to help over come this tragedy. That the best thing we can do for the deceased is remember them for the joy they gave us and do so with a smile on our face.....raise my glass and say "This dead relative was one Helluva guy"!!!! |
You go guy!
Hey is that you holding the glass? Geez for a moment I thought you had swiped a picture of me. Is that really you?
| QUOTE | ||
The next time you attempt to comfort a grieving family member or friend just tell them that birds came from dinosaurs and that will make them feel much better.
|
Not when taken in context Bathory.
| QUOTE |
| Hey is that you holding the glass? |
No thats not me....a deceased relative perhaps
I threw a pic up in the Rogues gallery if you dare peer into the eyes of the Confessor(old Joe Walsh tune).
| QUOTE |
| Not when taken in context Bathory |
well it was taken in context, its on par with your alcoholics comment
Been thinkin' about this on and off whilst no one replies to my Unicorn posts.
I pondered the point sitting on the Underground going to a job interview. Proving God/Jesus exists is well nigh impossible, thought I. Pondering some more I wondered if there was indeed proof, moved my bag to let a chap sit down next to me.
A priest.
Someone trying to tell me something perhaps? Not enough to convince me and most other people, true enough, but food enough for thought.
I pondered the point sitting on the Underground going to a job interview. Proving God/Jesus exists is well nigh impossible, thought I. Pondering some more I wondered if there was indeed proof, moved my bag to let a chap sit down next to me.
A priest.
Someone trying to tell me something perhaps? Not enough to convince me and most other people, true enough, but food enough for thought.
I too had a run in with a priest the other day.Actually I run into this priest quite regularly for he takes the same walking route as I. Many a day we have engaged in the philosophical,political, ethical, and nonsensical.
A few weeks back we were walking together and there was this little girl in her front yard with a cardboard box. She promptly and quite eagerly called to the priest "Mr. Priest could you come and bless my new kittens?"
The Priest walks over and equally as eager commends the girl for raising, thus far, a nice looking bunch of kittens. The little girl looks up and says "Thats because they are Christian kittens" the priest says "Well if they are christian kittens they will grow to be big and strong". The priest knowing full well my beliefs and also knowing how I arrived at them grabs me by the arm and says lets continue walking.
A few weeks pass and again we find ourselves on the same route with the same conversation and once again we encounter this little girl and her kittens, only this time there is no cardboard box for the kittens are running around the yard on their own accord.
The priest says "How are your christian kittens doing?" The girl quickly replies " They aren't Christian kittens anymore father." The priest says " Well once a Christian always a Christian, if they were Christian kitties a few weeks ago then they are still!!"
The girl looks up and says "No father they were Christian kittiens a few weeks ago but not anymore!!!"
She looks at the priest with the obvious intention of elucidation and says. " Father they were Christians kittiens a few weeks ago but not anymore because their eyes are open now"!!
A few weeks back we were walking together and there was this little girl in her front yard with a cardboard box. She promptly and quite eagerly called to the priest "Mr. Priest could you come and bless my new kittens?"
The Priest walks over and equally as eager commends the girl for raising, thus far, a nice looking bunch of kittens. The little girl looks up and says "Thats because they are Christian kittens" the priest says "Well if they are christian kittens they will grow to be big and strong". The priest knowing full well my beliefs and also knowing how I arrived at them grabs me by the arm and says lets continue walking.
A few weeks pass and again we find ourselves on the same route with the same conversation and once again we encounter this little girl and her kittens, only this time there is no cardboard box for the kittens are running around the yard on their own accord.
The priest says "How are your christian kittens doing?" The girl quickly replies " They aren't Christian kittens anymore father." The priest says " Well once a Christian always a Christian, if they were Christian kitties a few weeks ago then they are still!!"
The girl looks up and says "No father they were Christian kittiens a few weeks ago but not anymore!!!"
She looks at the priest with the obvious intention of elucidation and says. " Father they were Christians kittiens a few weeks ago but not anymore because their eyes are open now"!!
heh....I don't know which is more charming...the story, or the impossibly cute picture 
| QUOTE |
| I don't know which is more charming...the story, or the impossibly cute picture |
Would you say then my analagy rings true?.......elaborate if you like.....analagy is a good method of elaboration.....give it a whirl!
I believe what you mean is that religion is the result of having no real knowledge about the world. Back in the swirling mists of time, when man had no way of explaining their existance, why it rained, what caused thunder and lightning, or indeed had any answer to any of the millions of questions they may have had, the existance of God was simply assumed.
The act of the kittens opening their eyes was them becoming aware of the world...of looking for the truth for themselves, and learning what was really going on around them. In a world where we're able to explain just about everything and anything, religion is neither needed, nor all that likely at all.
Although forgive me if I'm reading too much of a metaphor into it You might also have just been making a sarcastic comment.
The act of the kittens opening their eyes was them becoming aware of the world...of looking for the truth for themselves, and learning what was really going on around them. In a world where we're able to explain just about everything and anything, religion is neither needed, nor all that likely at all.
Although forgive me if I'm reading too much of a metaphor into it
You might also have just been making a sarcastic comment.
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| Back in the swirling mists of time, when man had no way of explaining their existance, why it rained, what caused thunder and lightning, or indeed had any answer to any of the millions of questions they may have had, the existance of God was simply assumed. |
It also seems that there was an integration of sorts....where as man had the predisposition to accredit a higher power to natural things, and somewhere along the line this fact was utilized indeed exploited. I wonder by whom, and why, and I also wonder if they are still doing this exploiting but with a different tool other than religion?
If you wish to continue this thread as a repository then I am going to have to insist on quite a lot more tolerance of other peoples views .
Also Joc and Bathory if your not actually making a comment aimed atleast in the vicinity of the topic of the thread, try much harder to avoid posting it .
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| If you wish to continue this thread as a repository then I am going to have to insist on quite a lot more tolerance of other peoples views . |
I understand where your coming from, and indeed appreciate your concerns.
It would seem though that this topic is a very important one. The idea of religion in our culture is something that makes-up the very thread of our culture. The weave is pronounced right down to the very fabric of any individual psyche.
To figure out why this is is important. In order to figure out why, we must discuss. There will be no figuring out or learning with the presupposition of God. Where as a certain level of objectivity is needed. To try and aid in this quest for truth with a reiteration of the Glory of God seems propagandist in nature.
Maybe instead of possibly closing the thread a change in Title may be in order?
Yes Chauncy , the thread appears to be an important one , but the forum itself is even more important , If it appears that we show any preference toward or against a particular religion then it's not good for the forum as a whole , is it .
Lets face it if your story had of ended with the words ' Father they were Pagan/jewish/muslim/Wiccan kittiens a few weeks ago but not anymore because their eyes are open now"!!
We would have a lot of offended people on the board , and not an inch of that appeard to have much to do with the actuall topic at hand .
The Forum should be a place were
Christians, wiccans ,pagans ,jews , and Muslim a like should feel comfortable posting . And as such If a thread appears to be heading in the wrong direction I will (at least the first time ) give people a friendly reminder to get back on topic .
The title is fine . Infact if this space is used for exactly what it's supposed to be used for there won't be a problem .
Lets face it if your story had of ended with the words ' Father they were Pagan/jewish/muslim/Wiccan kittiens a few weeks ago but not anymore because their eyes are open now"!!
We would have a lot of offended people on the board , and not an inch of that appeard to have much to do with the actuall topic at hand .
The Forum should be a place were
Christians, wiccans ,pagans ,jews , and Muslim a like should feel comfortable posting . And as such If a thread appears to be heading in the wrong direction I will (at least the first time ) give people a friendly reminder to get back on topic .
The title is fine . Infact if this space is used for exactly what it's supposed to be used for there won't be a problem .
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| The title is fine . Infact if this space is used for exactly what it's supposed to be used for there won't be a problem |
I dig it!
And will for now on make concessions to show this fact. Indeed the forum as a whole is more important then any individual thread.
I can, and as you pointed out, should accomplish the same thing through discussion as apposed to assertion.
In light of my behaviour I will assume a self imposed 'time out' from this topic
Good topic I am also a Christian....
Chauncy,
There is one other issue you'll want to consider, while the cute 'kitten' analogy did help make your point, falsely attributing the incident to your own personal experience is disingenuous at best, worst, it diminishes the validity of anything you have to offer in the future. Attention to detail and proper accreditation helps build a solid argument, improprieties detract from it.
ORIGINAL SOURCE
There is one other issue you'll want to consider, while the cute 'kitten' analogy did help make your point, falsely attributing the incident to your own personal experience is disingenuous at best, worst, it diminishes the validity of anything you have to offer in the future. Attention to detail and proper accreditation helps build a solid argument, improprieties detract from it.
ORIGINAL SOURCE
i can't beleive how ignorant most people.
i'd like to state that i was brought up in a catholic family, but have no belief in a god or a creator, or anything else along those lines.
i see religeon as a mainstream acceptable cult.
i don't want to sound like some sort of anti religeon fanatic, because i'm not.
it's just the evidence against a god or a creator is adding up.
i find it really frustrating engaging in discussion with people on either side of the jesus argument.
sorry to go on their...
just my 2cents.
cheers.
i'd like to state that i was brought up in a catholic family, but have no belief in a god or a creator, or anything else along those lines.
i see religeon as a mainstream acceptable cult.
i don't want to sound like some sort of anti religeon fanatic, because i'm not.
it's just the evidence against a god or a creator is adding up.
i find it really frustrating engaging in discussion with people on either side of the jesus argument.
sorry to go on their...
just my 2cents.
cheers.
| QUOTE |
| There is one other issue you'll want to consider, while the cute 'kitten' analogy did help make your point, falsely attributing the incident to your own personal experience is disingenuous at best, worst, it diminishes the validity of anything you have to offer in the future. Attention to detail and proper accreditation helps build a solid argument, improprieties detract from it |
The priest to which I referred is very much real, as with our conversations.
The analagy I also shared with this priest to which a lengthy discussion ensued.
So the analagy, the priest, the girl, the kittens, the point, is all very much apart of my real experiences.
Also that joke/analagy has been kicking around for many years, pre-internet that is. The source you cited is by no means the origins of such. I will attempt to discover the factual origins of the joke/analagy.
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