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saucy
Disclaimer!!! THIS IS NOT A CREATION VS. EVOLUTION DEBATE, BUT A THREAD TO HELP ME FURTHER UNDERSTAND YOUR IDEA OF EVOLUTION. PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION IF YOU KNOW, BUT DO NOT BASH ANYONE OR CALL ANYONE IGNORANT BECAUSE THEY DON'T "KNOW" WHAT YOU "KNOW". YOUR HELP IS APPRECHIATED!

Like I said, not to turn this into a religious debate, I have a serious question about neanderthals. How intelligent were they actually? Were they able to travel? They have found bones in Africa and in Australia. I'm not sure where else, but if they found them in Australia, how did they get there? I know it may seem like I'm using this point to try and prove evolution didn't happen, but instead I am taking scientific proof and asking a question to further understand the theory. Any answer will be apprechiated.
Falco Rex
From what I understand the Neanderthals were on the same intelligence scale as us but were less adaptable to new situations.
Druidus
Although we may never know for certain, it is believed that neanderthal had fire before us. They were more intelligent then us, we suspect. Their are three theories as to their demise. Interbreeding with humans, in which we became one species instead of two distinct ones. Wars between the humans and the neanderthals, which may have wiped them out. Or, an extreme catastrophe in which they had no time to adapt or get away from, while we did. I personally believe that the first one and the second one are the true ones. Some clans we married, some clans we fought.
The Gryphon
Ditto what Falco said, I think evidence supports an unadaptability to change and though they may ahve been smart they weren't problem solvers like homo sapien.
saucy
But smart and capable enought to travel across the Indian ocean to Australia? Boats weren't made (or at least thought to be made) until way past their time/ They didn't have the tools or know how or probably didn't even know that wood could float on water and if they did, how did they create a boat good enough to travel across the ocean? These weren't men remember? They were halfway between man and the ape-like species we evolved from.
Angelfish
maybe there were ummm....whatever the neanderthals evolved from in what would become australia when there was only one continent(sp?) and they stayed there through when it started breaking away..and...ummm...does that make any sense?
I'm probably waaay off here though
**uneducatedness**
Falco Rex
The Neanderthals weren't ape-men Saucy. They were almost the same as we were except for thicker bones, a sloping brow and a heavier jaw. If they were halfway between ape and human science would have used them a to fill in the missing link long ago..
I think they were more likely a case of convergent evolution. Also, I don't recall hearing about Neanderthals in Australia, although I could be wrong..
saucy
see, that's the question I have! If neanderthals just have larger bones and heavier jaw, they are just a different version of man, not proof of evolution! I'm really confused. The question is because they have found these bones in Australia and Africa and there's no proof they had the intelligence to boat over there.

Angelfish, it's alright that you don't have an education, you're still young yet and have a lot to learn. According to the scientists, that did happen, but not as early as 1/2 a million years ago. They say it started to break billions of years ago or so.
Falco Rex
Well, like I said it's a case for convergent Evolution. That two species can branch off in different directions from a similar background. We have no real way to know exactly HOW intelligent the Neanderthals may have been or what happened to them. They might just have had low birth rates for all I know. But consider that the polynesians reached the South-Pacific Islands in extremely simple canoes and boats and you'll see that even the most rudimentary skill with tools would get you to Australia. Basic tool-use doesn't necessarily imply that they had the brain capacity to deal with our ancestors in the long run.
Moonfairie
Remember the continent at first were all together ? I think that when this large mainland break in continent, that the specie we evolve from was disperse in all the continent. And when one specie evolved the others evolved to ! That would explain that they found those bones in Autralia and in Africa.
wunarmdscissor
Are you sure theyve found them in australia?

Ive never heard of that?

Theyve found loads of bones in europe
saucy
yeah, I was doing research on evolution in high school and came across this site that talks about finding bones in Australia and that means evolution couldn't have happened. It talks about how one is supposedly in an early stage of evolution, but dated younger than ones found in africa that are further along in the evolution cycle, if that makes any sense at all. I'm not using it as a case against evolution, just saying that's what the article was about. They found bones in australia!
Druidus
I have found bones in northern canada too. Chicken bones, lemming bones, caribou bones. Anyone can find bones grin2.gif . Seriously though, there are so many species of prehuman that those bones could have been anyone of them, or even a hoax. We have trouble even now classifying prehuman bones.
Falco Rex
Allright Saucy, I found what you were talking about. The remains they found in Australia were called the Mungo Man. He was not a Neanderthal but a convergant species of Hominid that most likely evolved in Asia. I don't know how that would prove how evolution didn't happen but we won't start on that again..
However even with crude boats sailing to Australia from Asia is possible, if not exactly safe..
Chauncy
QUOTE
maybe there were ummm....whatever the neanderthals evolved from in what would become australia when there was only one continent(sp?) and they stayed there through when it started breaking away..and...ummm...does that make any sense?
I'm probably waaay off here though
**uneducatedness**


Pangea......they could have walked to Australia.

Eskimos in Northern Canada are believed to be Mongoloids that walked from upper Asia across an old land bridged that joined the Yukon.
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF4/494.html

Pangea!
user posted image
Stellar
QUOTE (saucy @ Jun 2 2004, 05:26 PM)
yeah, I was doing research on evolution in high school and came across this site that talks about finding bones in Australia and that means evolution couldn't have happened. It talks about how one is supposedly in an early stage of evolution, but dated younger than ones found in africa that are further along in the evolution cycle, if that makes any sense at all. I'm not using it as a case against evolution, just saying that's what the article was about. They found bones in australia!

Im sure that if this disproved evolution, evolution would be considered by science as disproven, which it is not, so that doesnt disprove evolution. Did your science book say it disproved evolution or did you just understand it that way btw?
Erikl
wund is correct.
Neanderthals only lived in Euro-asia and north africa. They didn't live in Australia, nor did they travel to eastern Asia (only western asia).
And to prove how similiar they were to humans, one can look at the Australian aborigines, who evolved physically to look like Neanderthals - thick eye bridges, heavy jaw, long and flat skull, and wide forehead. And don't get the wrong idea - gentically they are ofcourse modern humans (Homo Sapiens), but the harsh enviroment in the last 50,000 of their life in Australia caused them to develop Neanderthal phenotipes.

Here are three skulls, the one in the far right is a Neanderthal skull, the one in the middle is of an averege man, and the one in the far left is of an Australian Aborigine.
The Gryphon
Those skulls alone are proof that mankind is made of different lines of evolution. The bible doesn't explain well man's creation either, like where did Cain and Able get their wives? My view is the bible is an explanation of creation of, and to, one line of peoples. They also believe that they are the chosen or true race of man. The other peoples they came across, and married into, were considered lower beings in their view. A little shallow if you ask me. whistling2.gif
cloudedmoon
QUOTE
see, that's the question I have! If neanderthals just have larger bones and heavier jaw, they are just a different version of man, not proof of evolution!


Neanderthals were an evolutionary dead end. At one time there were many humanoids living at the same time not all them became homo-sapians. Why are you using Neanderthals as proof for evolution. Viruses are a much better example. They evolve much faster than animals. That is why many anti-biotic don't work any more. Bugs are also good examples. If you spray a bunch of roaches some will live. (take my word on that, I live in Florida) The one that live are resistent and pass that on to their off spring. After a while that spray will not work will not kill your roaches. That my dear is evolution. The thing is as much as Fundies would like it to be, evolution is not a theory. In science it is a proven fact.
Here are some sites that might help.
http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/news/sty/2001/aph...hid_sidebar.htm
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html
I think the idea of creationism belittles the complexity of creation.
Good luck. I see the fundies have pretty much taken over the internet.
Stellar
Cloudedmoon: Evolution is proven to exist... but the evolution of Man and other complex animals has not yet been proven 100% enough to convince creationists.
saucy
I see Chauncy, Australia was connected to the southern part of Africa and part of Antarctica, so I can see how they were able to move into Australia. You would think that the continents far below the equator and about the arctic region would be able to produce the species of chimps or apes or whatever they were and was able to survive and breed and evolve in that climate.

Cloudedmoon, bugs, viruses and the such don't evolve, they adapt into their environment. Every species have to adapt. We have not seen the evolution of any speices in the last couple thousand years of recorded history. THIS IS NOT A DEBATE AGAINST OR FOR EVOLUTION, BUT SINCE IT WAS BROUGHT UP, I'M GONNA MAKE A POINT.

It looks to me like if modern day humans have differing sizes of skulls, it wouldn't make it likely that if a skull was found underground and it was a different size than current day humans than it wouldn't prove evolution happened. The species as a whole evolves together.
Stellar
Saucy, adaptation such as what viruses and bugs do IS evolution. Evolution is basically adapting to the environment. It doesnt necessarily have to be an extra limb to be evolution. And there are new species that have appeared within the last 100 years, and I have mentioned them in about 3 other creationism vs evolution threads.
Erikl
QUOTE (The Gryphon @ Jun 3 2004, 02:23 AM)
They also believe that they are the chosen or true race of man. The other peoples they came across, and married into, were considered lower beings in their view. A little shallow if you ask me. whistling2.gif

Did you even read the Bible?
Although I'm not a Creationist (I believe in Evolution), I am familiar with the scriptures, and what you just wrote is rubbish.

The bible claims to explain the origins of all mankind. It also states that all mankind are equal, as they are all the sons of the same parents (Adam and Eve. The Hebrew word for "human" is Ben-Adam or Bat-Adam ("son of Adam" or "daugher of Adam"), which emphesize the equality of all humans.
The Bible also claim that after the great flood, only Noah and his three sons and their wives survived, and so we are all the sons of Noah.
It claims that humanity is divided into three lines, originating from three brothers:
Shem, Ham and Japhet.

As for "chosen people" - you simply don't understand what that means. This is a mistranslation from Hebrew, because many Hebrew have dualistic meaning. There are other mistranslation, like the word Armeggedon, which actually should be read as Har-Meggido (Mount Meggido).
Anyway, the original term is not "chosen people", as a better people than others, it means they were chosen to do something - "selected people". The Jews according to the Bible were chosen to spread the message of God as the only true god.
And if you ask me - 2 billion Christians, and 1.2 billion Muslims, is a pretty well-done job, wouldn't you say? wink2.gif

P.S
Judaism also do not compell non Jews to become Jewish. According to Judaism, all humans are compelled to follow only the 7 laws of Noah, because we are all children of Noah. The Jews, when they were chosen to do the specific job of spreading God's message, took on themselves many more laws, 613 to be exact, that came with the job. So you Noahides got of the hook this time grin2.gif ...
Erikl
And here is a picture of some Aborigines:
Erikl
And here is another image of the above Aborigne skull vs. averege man:
saucy
My idea of evolution is one species evolving into another different species. Adapting to the environment is not evolution. The reason why some people are dark in color is because of their environment. Africa and South America, around the equator where it's the warmest, are where you can find the darker people. The middle east, Mexico, just off the equator, Spain, people are dark, but not as dark. Europe, Asia, North America, people are lighter skinned. That's adaptation. People adapting to their environments. It's not a case of different species. Species have appeared? I honestly don't remember you saying anything about them, but that doesn't mean evolution. It just means we found a new species we haven't found before. Never have we seen one species evolve into a whole different species.
Chauncy
QUOTE
it means they were chosen to do something - "selected people".


I get the impression from scripture that there was a lot of preserving going on with specific bloodlines, and there was also a desire to hunt and eradicate this bloodline.

The exodus through the desert is an example of this preservation, and only the offspring born through out the journey were allowed into the new land.

I believe this bloodline that was preserved, was the same bloodline Hitler tried to eradicate, and it is the preservation of this bloodline that led to a lot of the persecution felt by the Jews throughout history.

Does this ring true or am I way off here?
Erikl
Chauncy, this is not true.
Judaism accept any one who convert to Judaism as if he was born as a Jew.
The Torah specifically says that we should treat any convert as if his family was Jewish for generations, because we (Jews) were all converts when we took on ourselves the Torah in Mt. Sinai.
On the other hand, Rabbis are obligated to reject people who want ot convert, at least three times, and inquire that man or woman why he want to convert. Also, the process of conversion is not easy and takes time.
The reason for this is that gentiles (non-Jews) are not obligated to become Jews. The Torah says that they need only to obey the 7 Noahide laws in order to get the same benefits as a Jew will get after he dies.
This is very important: as oppose to Islam or Christianity, Jews do not believe that all others should convert to their religion in order to go to heaven in the afterlife.

This is why from a religious point of view, non-Jews have easy life if they follow the Torah, and they will benefit the same as a Jew.
Chauncy
QUOTE
Judaism accept any one who convert to Judaism as if he was born as a Jew


I understand this.....but was it like this in the days of the Biblical patriarches.

I understand 'Jewishness' as being not only a religion but a cultural identity.

Weren't potential converts to Christianity in the NT obliged to convert to Judaism before being baptized?
cloudedmoon
QUOTE
My idea of evolution is one species evolving into another different species. Adapting to the environment is not evolution


Take it you have a PhD in biology. Your "IDEA" has nothing to do with scientific method. Science is a way to understand world around using steps to prove theories. This is scientific method. I you wish to base science on religion then I would not go into science as a career. Go into the clergy and then you can say what you want with out worring about truth

QUOTE
  The scientific method is the best way yet discovered for winnowing the truth from lies and delusion. The simple version looks something like this:
1. Observe some aspect of the universe.
2. Invent a tentative description, called a hypothesis, that is consistent with what you have observed.
3. Use the hypothesis to make predictions.
4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations and modify the hypothesis in the light of your results.
5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no discrepancies between theory and experiment and/or observation.
When consistency is obtained the hypothesis becomes a theory and provides a coherent set of propositions which explain a class of phenomena. A theory is then a framework within which observations are explained and predictions are made.

http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Note..._www/node5.html



I have questions about what is happening in our educational system today.
Erikl
QUOTE
I understand this.....but was it like this in the days of the Biblical patriarches.


Yes, it is a very ancient policy. It is a law wrriten in the Torah, not an Oral law.


QUOTE
I understand 'Jewishness' as being not only a religion but a cultural identity.

Yes, this is correct. Jewishness is a non-exclusive ethnic group - meaning that in order to become part of the Jewish ethnicity, you can join by converting to Judaism.
But this is not the other way around - a Jew cannot "un-Jew" himself. A jew who converted to Christianity or Islam is still considered a full fledge jew according to Jewish law.

QUOTE
Weren't potential converts to Christianity in the NT obliged to convert to Judaism before being baptized?

Before Paul's reforms, Christianity was a Jewish sect, and is still called in Hebrew "Noztrim", after their desciple - Jesus of Nazarath.
There is still a tiny Jewish sect called Talmidi Judaism, who follow Jesus as a prophet, not as a Messiah. You can read about it HERE.
saucy
Stellar, evolution has never been proven to exist, but you can keep telling yourself that it has. Never have we seen evolution happen and we have not seen evolution in the bones. Most of the bones found can and have been explained by other means. Why are scientists so quick to jump all over a tooth or jawbone and without looking at it twice. They find a bone and go to the press with it saying it's the skull of early man, but forty years later its found to be nothing more than the knee cap of an elephant, not even a skull at all. In a lot of cases, scientists have tried to prove evolution with a single tooth. It looks to me that scientists are desperate to prove it exists, but cannot and have not. That's why they keep looking and changing their theories to revolve around what they have found. The idea that the theories keep changing show that evolution has not been proven 100%.

FOR THE LAST TIME, THIS IS NOT A RELIGIOUS DEBATE ON EVOLUTION VS. CREATION OR TO PROVE WHO'S RIGHT OR WRONG. I JUST HAD A QUESTION AND NOW IT'S ANSWERED. YOU WANT TO DEBATE THIS FURTHER, THEN GO TO MY SITE, BUT I ASK THAT THE MODS NOW CLOSE THIS THREAD BECAUSE THE MEANING HAS BEEN ANSWERED. THANK YOU.
Chauncy
I've often tried to understand why the Jews have had so much grief through-out history, why are they a target? Is it because they don't believe Jesus to be the messiah?

Also this may sound like a case of ignorance on my part, but why do ethnic Jews have different facial features than others?
Druidus
Saucy, I know that you term evolution as one species changing into another, but exactly how do you think it works? By just one day one species has a child and it comes out as a completely new species? A series of adaptations will bring about an overall change, even if only on the genetic level, in a population. That is evolution. Viruses evolve all the time! That's why there are so many different strains.

Adapting to ones environment is a prelude to evolution. If the environment continually changes, you too, will change with it, although over generations.

Perhaps DNA testing should be done an the australian aborigines, in order to see how closely related they are to the neanderthal.
cloudedmoon
QUOTE
Disclaimer!!! THIS IS NOT A CREATION VS. EVOLUTION DEBATE, BUT A THREAD TO HELP ME FURTHER UNDERSTAND YOUR IDEA OF EVOLUTION. PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION IF YOU KNOW, BUT DO NOT BASH ANYONE OR CALL ANYONE IGNORANT BECAUSE THEY DON'T "KNOW" WHAT YOU "KNOW". YOUR HELP IS APPRECHIATED!



YOU ARE A FRAUD! ohmy.gif I followed the link on the bottom of your post. I thought you were a student. You are not! You have a big post on it about creationism. You are an administrator on that site. You had no intention of real study. You are a fundie. thumbdown.gif You should be ashamed of yourself. I am a Pagan and I would never use fraud to promote my religion. As a matter of fact we don't promote our faith at all. Know wonder our faith is growing. People want to get away from the deceit and lies of christanity.

This is her post on the other site.

QUOTE
The Scientific Case for Creation and the case for the Worldwide Flood being the cause of the fossil record.




The apostle Peter predicted the abandonment of the belief in the worldwide flood when he said...

"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:3-7


EVOLUTION HAS NEVER BEEN OBSERVED!



Falco Rex
HAHA! Saucy is a guy! laugh.gif Also we are well aware that he is a fundie and we've all gone a few rounds with him on it. He was actually trying to keep this thread relatively free of religious overtones in comparison to some of his other threads.
Don't get too down on him he's a pretty good guy overall.
He's just presenting things as he understands them. If he's wrong the onus is on us to set him straight..
Erikl
QUOTE
I've often tried to understand why the Jews have had so much grief through-out history, why are they a target? Is it because they don't believe Jesus to be the messiah?

Belief in Jesus had nothing to do with anti-semitism.
Anti-Semitism existed long before Jesus was born - back in the time of the slavery in Egypt they were persecuted (remember Pharoes order to kill all the Israelite first born kids?), and in the time of Greek rule in Eretz Israel.
I believe the reason for this was that Jews never gave up their own culture. It pissed many, and won the admiration of some (Julius Caeser and Great Alexander admired the Jews for their long-lasting culture). Eventually the hatred became part of some religion's culture, who after hundreds of years of hatred toward a group of people saw it as an integrated part of their culture and religion.


QUOTE
Also this may sound like a case of ignorance on my part, but why do ethnic Jews have different facial features than others?

Why do Poles have different facial features than others? why do Arabs have different facial features?
Jews are mainly descendants of middle-eastern Judeans, so ofcourse they will look different than non-Judean people.
But this is somewhat not true - most Jews look like their surrounding neighbor populations, although genetically they are closer to Arabs, Assyrians, and other middle-eastern people (this was discovered in the 90s of the 20th century).
A Polish Jew looks like a Christian Pole. An Arab Jew looks like a Muslim Arab.
In Europe it is a bit complicated - Jews migrated in all of Europe, and so if you want to see the sum of all Europeans facial features, look at Ashkenazic Jews - they are part German, part Polish, part Russian, part Spanish, part Italian, part French, part Scandinavian, part Celtic, etc..
The genetic research revealed that although Ashkenazic Jews share the same genes with other Jews and with middle-eastern people through the Y-Chromosome, they share samiliar genes with their surrouding local populations through the mitachondrial DNA (that is - through matrilineal line).

The stereotype of a hooked-nosed Jew with dark skin and dark hair and dark eyes is ofcourse not true: I myself have red hair, blue eyes, pale skin and a straight nose.
Chauncy
Hey Falco is absolutely correctamundo!!!

Saucy is a good guy, he is just a little confused. As Falco said we try to correct him as we see fit. I like having saucy here.

But being the swell people we are, we will battle 'Saucology' as much as necessary.
This we pledge!



p.s. Ozmiester coined the term 'Saucology' not me....but I like it original.gif
wunarmdscissor
so much for this not becomin a boring religious debate lol lol lol lol
Chauncy
QUOTE
I believe the reason for this was that Jews never gave up their own culture. It pissed many, and won the admiration of some


So they were persecuted for not assimilating with surronding groups, holding on to tradition. This I believe confirms the idea of preservation I mentioned. Jesus I believe mentioned that the old ways (OT) didn't apply to his era as in the customs and rites.

This refusal to let go of their culture is shown in the denial of Jesus as the messiah, isn't it ?
wunarmdscissor
Heres a serious question?

What mysteriously evil force Hijacks perfectly good threads and turns them into fire and brimstone threads?????


Now theres an unexplained mystery.
wunarmdscissor
And we cant even blame seraphina for this one laugh.gif
saucy
You guys are forgetting the fact that being jewish is a religion, not a race of people. Why they have different facial features, I do not know, but not all jews look alike.

I am a student, not of exactly of biology, but I am studying how we all started, including evolution and to me, evolution doesn't make any sense. I simply had a question about evolution, without the religious tone to them like Falco Rex mentioned. I'm trying to keep all religious debates to my site, because they are looked down upon here because they get out of hand. I am religious and I'm a student and I'm trying to make everything make sense for me.

My site has room for every kind of discussion and I was thinking about creating a post for paganism as well. I'm trying to learn what I can and not all of my site is christian in nature. I put creation vs. evolution there for people to debate the topic, to debate the evidence presented. Sorry if you are not happy with the content of my forum. There is no money-back guarantee for those not satisfied.
wunarmdscissor
and by the way neanderthals did NOT die out.


How insulting.

You'll insult a few members who post regularly here on this very forum grin2.gif
wunarmdscissor
Look everyone just chill out or ill get some of the neanderthals in to sort you all out. devil.gif
Chauncy
I realize what your saying wunarmdscissor, but there is some learning going on here and that is priceless.

We can move this back on topic through the present discussion, I plan to anyhow.original.gif
saucy
oh yeah, and if the cross on my avatar didn't tip you off that i'm religious, then I don't know what you thought about me.
wunarmdscissor
Its annoying when someon hijacks a thread an turns it into a completley different subject devoid of any point and with no ending, which in turn makes the thread go ROUND an ROUND in bloody circles.
wunarmdscissor
No no it wont move on lol.

Itll turn into.

"burn in hell you non-believer"

rply

"ding dong you foolish bible basher, i have a degree in uiryjbskugfwiu so im far too intelligent to believe in all that bible nonesense"

grin2.gif
wunarmdscissor
I mean there was a thread about why they renamed marathon bars to become snickers bars.

EVEN that turned religoious.

Someon claimed god did it.
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