As per the title this topic is mostly ment to be between Myself and Falco, examining, contrasting and compairing our two theological standpoints. Its not ment as a proper debate as for the most part we probably won't be on opposing sides and there won't be an argument, however there will, hopefully, be an examination of the internal logical coherency of both PoV's
Whilst occassional 'peanuts from the gallery' are welcome on matters of logic (Not YOUR logic, but rather does each of the participents statements have an internal logic that holds with what they have posted to date in this thread! Feel free to point out contradictions if the other person misses it). Also this is an examination of the theological views of the two protaganists, for the perpouses of this thread YOUR theology is of no interest.... you want to push your theological position? Do so elsewhere. If you want to discuss a point raised here from your PoV feel free to start a second thread (I'm hoping there will be several such general open threads generated during this), THIS thread is predominantly concerned with the PoV's of Falco and myself.
So, how to kick this off? Falco, I suggest we both give a general overview of what brought us to our current position followed by a description in broad terms of the nature of our theological stance..... ending with a "How do you explain 'X' in regard to your PoV" question for the other side.
Being mostly raised in the Catholic area's of Glasgow I was basicaly 'force fed' that belief system from day one. However there where aspects of it that didn't sit right and also experiences that weren't explained by their doctrins. Age seven became a turning point, the blatent hypocracy of the church was simply too much.
A friends father was a drunkard and a wife beater, each Saturday he'd go to confession, admit his 'sins', say his hail marys and be absolved of the responcibility for his actions.... then go to the pub, get tanked, go home and beat his wife and kids black and blue again...... I knew the church was well aware of it, but he was a good catholic and didn't need to change his ways because each week they would absolve him of it and he had no reason to change... why when he would be 'forgiven' regardless!
Even at age seven, this was beyond the amount of hypocracy I could stomach, I decided there was something fundamentaly flawed in such a system and turned my back on the church..... This caused somewhat a theological void, I had questions but no longer accepted the dogma I was brought up with as an answer.... So I began the search for my own answers.
First point of call was science and to this day I have and abiding interest, especialy quantum physics..... however I was still having experiences that science couldn't (And still can't) answer. Over the thirty or so years since then I've walked a number of paths, both eastern and western, discounting those parts which are unscientific whilst examining the rest. Where I've found something I couldn't explain I've studied it to the point I could understand from my own PoV how its working (Sometimes thats accepting that paths viewpoint on it, sometimes working out how I believe it to be functioning)
I've walked many paths Buhdist, Taoist, Druid, even was a sanyasin for a while (Their active meditation techniques where a great help). Looked into but not followed others OTO, Golden Dawn, Satanism, Spiritualism. And underwent three formal initiations Shaman, Wiccan, Cabbalist.... No single path has given me all the answers and all the organised forms of 'worship' tend to have the same drawback.... where you have an organisation, people are drawn to it for the apparent power over others that an organisation automaticaly brings.
So here I am, rapidly aproaching the big Four oh-oh and walking no-ones path but my own. I do use the lable 'Pagan' in its loosest and most generalised form as its close enough in situations where going into great detail isn't an option.
In broad terms, theology isn't about dogma or rhetoric or following some book written 10K years ago/ 2K years ago/Early 1960's/yesterday nor following what someone else tells you to follow. Theology is about your relationship with the divine in whatever form you touch it, the answers aren't out here, if you are looking out here then you are getting it wrong, the answers are already there you just have to look long enough and deep enough inside yourself in order to find them.
And finaly, If I'm going to be asking the first question, lets make it the big one......
Falco, please explain in the terms of your theology the nature of the Divine (God, gaea, energy of the universe, However you percieve it)
Full Version: Fenris Vs Falco: Theologys examined
Keep walking your own path, Fenris.
You're like me....we're both about the same age.....I've never subscribed to Christianity's (or for that matter, any religion's) dogmas, right from the time I was a small child. Anyway, for a start, I asked too many pointed (and embarassing) questions
. I may have a certain affinity to various aspects of a belief system, but I don't subscribe to any religion in particular. I can think for myself, I don't need someone else to do it for me, plus I'm intelligent enough (I hope) to be able to find the answers I seek.
The logic of your path will come from your journey along it.....it may not fit anyone else's logic.....it may even offend some people's belief systems, but that's their problem, not yours. They will need to deal with it themselves.
So long as you find those answers you're seeking, that is all that's required. If anyone else becomes interested in your personal philosophies, good.....if not, then that's good as well. Each person has their own path to follow. Even if it's not a good path and they get led up the "garden path", so to speak. We all learn from our experiences (hopefully).
You're like me....we're both about the same age.....I've never subscribed to Christianity's (or for that matter, any religion's) dogmas, right from the time I was a small child. Anyway, for a start, I asked too many pointed (and embarassing) questions
. I may have a certain affinity to various aspects of a belief system, but I don't subscribe to any religion in particular. I can think for myself, I don't need someone else to do it for me, plus I'm intelligent enough (I hope) to be able to find the answers I seek. The logic of your path will come from your journey along it.....it may not fit anyone else's logic.....it may even offend some people's belief systems, but that's their problem, not yours. They will need to deal with it themselves.
So long as you find those answers you're seeking, that is all that's required. If anyone else becomes interested in your personal philosophies, good.....if not, then that's good as well. Each person has their own path to follow. Even if it's not a good path and they get led up the "garden path", so to speak. We all learn from our experiences (hopefully).
I guess I preface my answer with a brief introduction since it ties in with what I believe. I was raised in a home where religion was of minimal importance. My Father was a Baptist that never really got any answers to his questions about Theology from the church, so in his adulthood he has become lapsed. My Mother is Jewish and German and a Holocaust survivor. Although she's never been forthcoming about what she experienced there whatever happened altered her view on religion forever..
Thusly, I was raised without being forced to go to church or without any preconceived notions of what God might be. I too have tried various Religions, the two main ones for me being Evangelical Christianity and Judaism.
Although I enjoyed both of them to an extent they both felt somehow incomplete for me. Mostly it was the fact that to be accepted in them you are forced to fight scientific fact that bears itself out in laboratory conditions. Why would a sensible school of thought argue with things that are known to be true? That bothered me to quite a bit. If they want me to believe that,what other falsehoods might I be forced to swallow?
Although disillusioned with various religions I find that I still believe in a higher power. So for the past few years I've tried to examine my thoughts and beliefs on what God might be. Although my thoughts are by no means fully formed here's how I perceive God as of today...
I believe there is one God who is an energy or force that is the embodiment of sentient thought in the universe. God represents the something more we always refer to when we speak of conscience or the soul or higher thoughts. I believe there is only one God but that he has worn many faces throughout time. Whether it was Marduk or Athena or El it seems that something was performing miracles and giving signs long before the Worlds' current dominant theology was locked into place. I doubt highly that a God or whole Pantheon of them would just dissappear because the state didn't allow them to be worshipped. Rather I believe that the Gods of old and God as he currently exists are just an aspect of the total Divine Force and that God can be thought of or worshipped in whatever form that people can best comprehend him in. The Ancient Romans had a term for it. Divine Genius. I think that term sums it up best for me. God is more of a Spiritual Force or energy for me than a physical being.
That's merely a bare skeleton of my belief but I think it's enough of a frame work to begin with..
So Fenris, I would ask of you the same question. What is God to You?
Thusly, I was raised without being forced to go to church or without any preconceived notions of what God might be. I too have tried various Religions, the two main ones for me being Evangelical Christianity and Judaism.
Although I enjoyed both of them to an extent they both felt somehow incomplete for me. Mostly it was the fact that to be accepted in them you are forced to fight scientific fact that bears itself out in laboratory conditions. Why would a sensible school of thought argue with things that are known to be true? That bothered me to quite a bit. If they want me to believe that,what other falsehoods might I be forced to swallow?
Although disillusioned with various religions I find that I still believe in a higher power. So for the past few years I've tried to examine my thoughts and beliefs on what God might be. Although my thoughts are by no means fully formed here's how I perceive God as of today...
I believe there is one God who is an energy or force that is the embodiment of sentient thought in the universe. God represents the something more we always refer to when we speak of conscience or the soul or higher thoughts. I believe there is only one God but that he has worn many faces throughout time. Whether it was Marduk or Athena or El it seems that something was performing miracles and giving signs long before the Worlds' current dominant theology was locked into place. I doubt highly that a God or whole Pantheon of them would just dissappear because the state didn't allow them to be worshipped. Rather I believe that the Gods of old and God as he currently exists are just an aspect of the total Divine Force and that God can be thought of or worshipped in whatever form that people can best comprehend him in. The Ancient Romans had a term for it. Divine Genius. I think that term sums it up best for me. God is more of a Spiritual Force or energy for me than a physical being.
That's merely a bare skeleton of my belief but I think it's enough of a frame work to begin with..
So Fenris, I would ask of you the same question. What is God to You?
Hmmmm we are not so far apart on this, there are diffrences but far more points of simularity.
Here is 'divinity' from my PoV..........
There is an energy out there that for want of a better lable I think of as 'divinity', it isn't inteligent in the way we recognise inteligence, it isn't some kind of omnipotent puppetmaster, nor is it a celestial 'father figure' who can pat us on the head and take away the responsibility for having done negative crap. It doesn't 'love' us or try to 'look after us' in any way we would recognise, not in its base form. It is simply a force of nature that follows its own set of rules (That we haven't figured all of them out) much like a storm is a force of nature that follows rules.
however, that divine energy can be used/molded by the will of inteligent beings (All life is ALSO part of that energy!). This is the root of all the myriad gods and goddesses that human beings have interacted with throughout the ages. When the first caveman tried to understand the world around him and decided there where forces beyond his reach... that first metaphysical thought started the first god archetype. Another caveman contemplated and tried to understand the concept and in some places he agreed, in others he disagreed (And possibly clubbed the first guy over the head with a rock for being a heritic *g*).... and so on through the ages, those things that agree making the archetypes stronger and those that don't agree, if enough people believe then a new archetype evolves.
Those archetypes are the basis of all the gods, goddesses, etc that we have interacted with, but it isn't until we personaly interact with them that they become 'real'. No longer just an archetype, but an archetype viewed through who we are and how we understand the world. A mix of ourselves and what has gone before.
That doesn't detract from their value though, divinity as an energy is infinate and as finite beings we can never truely understand anything infinate except in the most abstract of terms, its just too big, it doesn't fit into our finite understanding. So breaking it down into chunks that we CAN relate to, anthropomorphising bits so we can interact and communicate, helps us not only understand bits of divinity but also (Because what we deal with is formed through who we are as well as the archetypal template) helps us understand ourselves. The danger comes when we forget the limitations of 'god' and get bogged down in dogma and ignorance, letting others tell us what we 'should believe' rather than learning who we are and where we fit into the whole.
OK, basing the next question on what you have there.......
Given we both recognise the multi-faceted nature of the divine, in which of its forms do you personalty relate to it and in what manner do you do so? do you 'worship' it? Use it as a kind of tool? Treat it like "Buddy Divinity" just another aspect of you life? Totaly ignore it? Point your fingre and laugh at it? What?
Here is 'divinity' from my PoV..........
There is an energy out there that for want of a better lable I think of as 'divinity', it isn't inteligent in the way we recognise inteligence, it isn't some kind of omnipotent puppetmaster, nor is it a celestial 'father figure' who can pat us on the head and take away the responsibility for having done negative crap. It doesn't 'love' us or try to 'look after us' in any way we would recognise, not in its base form. It is simply a force of nature that follows its own set of rules (That we haven't figured all of them out) much like a storm is a force of nature that follows rules.
however, that divine energy can be used/molded by the will of inteligent beings (All life is ALSO part of that energy!). This is the root of all the myriad gods and goddesses that human beings have interacted with throughout the ages. When the first caveman tried to understand the world around him and decided there where forces beyond his reach... that first metaphysical thought started the first god archetype. Another caveman contemplated and tried to understand the concept and in some places he agreed, in others he disagreed (And possibly clubbed the first guy over the head with a rock for being a heritic *g*).... and so on through the ages, those things that agree making the archetypes stronger and those that don't agree, if enough people believe then a new archetype evolves.
Those archetypes are the basis of all the gods, goddesses, etc that we have interacted with, but it isn't until we personaly interact with them that they become 'real'. No longer just an archetype, but an archetype viewed through who we are and how we understand the world. A mix of ourselves and what has gone before.
That doesn't detract from their value though, divinity as an energy is infinate and as finite beings we can never truely understand anything infinate except in the most abstract of terms, its just too big, it doesn't fit into our finite understanding. So breaking it down into chunks that we CAN relate to, anthropomorphising bits so we can interact and communicate, helps us not only understand bits of divinity but also (Because what we deal with is formed through who we are as well as the archetypal template) helps us understand ourselves. The danger comes when we forget the limitations of 'god' and get bogged down in dogma and ignorance, letting others tell us what we 'should believe' rather than learning who we are and where we fit into the whole.
OK, basing the next question on what you have there.......
Given we both recognise the multi-faceted nature of the divine, in which of its forms do you personalty relate to it and in what manner do you do so? do you 'worship' it? Use it as a kind of tool? Treat it like "Buddy Divinity" just another aspect of you life? Totaly ignore it? Point your fingre and laugh at it? What?
Wow what a great thread......why wasn't I invited. 
.....jjk
After reading these Pov's so far I can't help but come away feeling that what is being described by each of you gentlemen is the power or force of nature. This is how I percieve this power.....I personally do not like to use the human invented word 'God'.....for I feel these Gods are a personification of this nature force.
Specific examples of Gods in many cultures in my opinion may represent 'visitors' of some kind.
It makes me feel good to see that neither of you gemtlemen subscribe to a final Judgement or damnation or salvation as reward or punishment.
I was wondering if these concepts enter into your beliefs or not?
.....jjkAfter reading these Pov's so far I can't help but come away feeling that what is being described by each of you gentlemen is the power or force of nature. This is how I percieve this power.....I personally do not like to use the human invented word 'God'.....for I feel these Gods are a personification of this nature force.
Specific examples of Gods in many cultures in my opinion may represent 'visitors' of some kind.
It makes me feel good to see that neither of you gemtlemen subscribe to a final Judgement or damnation or salvation as reward or punishment.
I was wondering if these concepts enter into your beliefs or not?
I guess the short answer is that I don't relate to it on a day to day basis.It's enough for me just know that it's there. I don't engage in regular active worship the way most would recognize it. On occasion, when I have a quiet moment I like to meditate on the nature of God Him/Her?Itself, and hope that by reaching a higher level of understanding that I will grow closer to God myself. Although I never pray to ask for anything or follow a set prayer routine.
I've already been given free will and sentient thought, to ask for more than that seems selfish somehow..
Every once in a while I'll throw a friendly greeting into my meditation routine. It may sound silly, but it can't hurt to be nice..
However there have been times when it seems that force has chosen to interact with me. I don't mean I have visions or speak with Angels or anything like that. But every single time in my life that events have been totally out of control and everything was about to hit the wall, I've been saved at the last minute by something or other. And it's usually something I've had nothing to do with. This has happened far too many times for me to chalk it up to good luck..
I'm also aware that this may just be Hubris on my part, but It just doesn't feel like it...
I still wouldn't take this to mean God loves me, at least not in the way we humans define it. Insofar as I can understand the nature of it at all, I think Gods' version of emotional response would be far different than ours. It would have to be if you were omnipotent pure energy. I definitely don't see God as my buddy. If I'm really being saved, I'm sure it's to some end I can only guess at. Or maybe for no purpose at all but random interference to bolster my beliefs..
I hate to sound like a Parrot, but Your question was a good one, so I'll send it back to you..
Also you mentioned that you believe Gods' energy can be influenced by beings with intelligent thought. You seem to mean mean that our thoughts turn God into physical beings for us. But do you believe it possible that we can use some of Gods' energy for ourselves personally? And if so, how? I'm wondering because there are some who have claimed to have worked miracles in Gods name. I'm wondering how miraculous healing and such fits into your theology.
I've already been given free will and sentient thought, to ask for more than that seems selfish somehow..
Every once in a while I'll throw a friendly greeting into my meditation routine. It may sound silly, but it can't hurt to be nice..
However there have been times when it seems that force has chosen to interact with me. I don't mean I have visions or speak with Angels or anything like that. But every single time in my life that events have been totally out of control and everything was about to hit the wall, I've been saved at the last minute by something or other. And it's usually something I've had nothing to do with. This has happened far too many times for me to chalk it up to good luck..
I'm also aware that this may just be Hubris on my part, but It just doesn't feel like it...
I still wouldn't take this to mean God loves me, at least not in the way we humans define it. Insofar as I can understand the nature of it at all, I think Gods' version of emotional response would be far different than ours. It would have to be if you were omnipotent pure energy. I definitely don't see God as my buddy. If I'm really being saved, I'm sure it's to some end I can only guess at. Or maybe for no purpose at all but random interference to bolster my beliefs..
I hate to sound like a Parrot, but Your question was a good one, so I'll send it back to you..
Also you mentioned that you believe Gods' energy can be influenced by beings with intelligent thought. You seem to mean mean that our thoughts turn God into physical beings for us. But do you believe it possible that we can use some of Gods' energy for ourselves personally? And if so, how? I'm wondering because there are some who have claimed to have worked miracles in Gods name. I'm wondering how miraculous healing and such fits into your theology.
To respond to Chauncy. No I don't believe in final judgement of the soul or final reward. At least not at this basic a level of existence. I think we simply move on to something else. People speak of the afterlife, but who can say that it's the only one? There may well be levels of existence even beyond that..
Perhaps eventually there's a Final of some sort but I don't think it happens at the end of this life..
Perhaps eventually there's a Final of some sort but I don't think it happens at the end of this life..
I can definitely say with confidence that the PoV’s so far are very indicative of humans that are in tune with the world and what it means to be human.
When I ponder the ultimate power or force of nature I do not connect it to the idea of a God personified as such, I ponder it as an energy or frequency. Unfortunately the persona of a ‘God’ , regardless of culture, has become for me a lazy depiction. Where as the mind set one submits to in order to put faith in this persona, actually prevents one from seeing the intricacies of this force and thus never becoming in tune with it.
This nature force in my opinion is universal and Earth and all her inhabitants are but a small example of the wonders it has instigated. Our seemingly inescapable isolation in this universe has allowed us to become complacent where many think that humans are the universal standard.
As far as death is concerned I believe we still exist in this universal scheme of things. We develop an energy during our existence. This energy continues after death in what ever manner it did here, where as someone of a negative nature will continue as such, as with a positive person.
This positive/negative scheme of things exists in nature right down to the very atoms. I know we were spawned from the same force that spawned atoms, so logically I conclude that we follow the same pattern, in life and in death.
I have felt the good/positive energy in life, I’ve maintained this energy throughout my years hear, and I’m confident in knowing that I will continue in this positive/good energy state when I die. Therefore I accept death and anticipate the opportunity to maintain my positive energy in the natural scheme of things.
When I ponder the ultimate power or force of nature I do not connect it to the idea of a God personified as such, I ponder it as an energy or frequency. Unfortunately the persona of a ‘God’ , regardless of culture, has become for me a lazy depiction. Where as the mind set one submits to in order to put faith in this persona, actually prevents one from seeing the intricacies of this force and thus never becoming in tune with it.
This nature force in my opinion is universal and Earth and all her inhabitants are but a small example of the wonders it has instigated. Our seemingly inescapable isolation in this universe has allowed us to become complacent where many think that humans are the universal standard.
As far as death is concerned I believe we still exist in this universal scheme of things. We develop an energy during our existence. This energy continues after death in what ever manner it did here, where as someone of a negative nature will continue as such, as with a positive person.
This positive/negative scheme of things exists in nature right down to the very atoms. I know we were spawned from the same force that spawned atoms, so logically I conclude that we follow the same pattern, in life and in death.
I have felt the good/positive energy in life, I’ve maintained this energy throughout my years hear, and I’m confident in knowing that I will continue in this positive/good energy state when I die. Therefore I accept death and anticipate the opportunity to maintain my positive energy in the natural scheme of things.
| QUOTE |
| The viewpoints encompassed within the pantheistic community are necessarily diverse, but the central ideas of the universe being an all-encompassing unity, a common purpose, and the sanctity of both nature and its natural laws are found throughout. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism
Sounds to me Fenris, Falco Rex and Chauncy you all believe in some form of pantheism, is that correct?(and i dont mean the hindu kind)
Nice addition to the question there Falco, that makes for a VERY big question (especialy given I'm going to answer both Chauncy and Venomshocker here also as, to me, the three questions are closely linked). So grab a coffee, this could get long and convoluted 
Firstly, Venomshocker. The answer to that is both yes and no! On one level ALL the gods from those of the first proto thologic caveman (Who tended to focus on natural events.... thunder became personified because they couldn't understand/explain it any other way and so on through an ever increacing pantheon) through Sumarian, Greek, Egyptian... right upto The Christian god, Allah ect... all exist, in that enough people have believed in them to create an archetype of that diety which has a form of existance in isolation. Any of these archetypes can be accessed and worked with by someone with an affinity for that particular one. I have worked with MANY such archetypes and accnowledge that they all do indeed come from the same source.... thats the yes bit!
However, I accnowledge them as constructs. Before there was sentient life that needed to impose such mechanisms onto the energy of the universe in an attempt to understand it (And to understand themselves) there was nothing that any of us could have called a god. Just the basic, non-sentient energy. It doesn't make them any less real to those interacting with them, but it does limit them... there is no such thing as omnipitence or omnipowerful and they are created by finite minds.... anything finite will always have some limits (Else it wouldn't be finite!)
So whilst I can access a pantheistic range of diety forms in my search for understanding, I am always aware that they are not the totality of the divine and that the true nature of the divine is just energy and whilst respected is not something to be 'worshiped'. You don't worship a hurricane or a bolt of lightning.... divine energy is just as natural as those.
Falco, as you no doubt see, part of the answer to you is in the above and don't worry about sounding silly. There is always going to be some folks that consider your PoV silly simply because it disagrees with theirs. Thats why I stated what I did in the initial post, this thread is examining OUR silly ideas.... they can take their silly idea's to another thread
But to elaborate. Whilst I acknowledge that the truth of divinity is nothing more than energy, energy is difficult to relate to, you can't ask it things and it can't respond..... So I do use the anthropomorphic archetypes and work with 'god/dess' forms. Not to 'worship' as stated its a bit pointless 'worshiping' energy. Mostly I use the forms meditationaly in examinig aspects of myself to better undertand me... Invoking an archetype which typifies the aspect of myself and trying to understand it.... basicaly useing the archetype to better communicate with my subconsious. No they don't manifest physicaly and good, can you imagine having to get the shovel out to clear up after a ganesha invokation (Ganesh - Indian Elephant headed diety) 
But they can sometimes have a phyical effect. I've had several people that have been in the same building whilst I've been working claim to have felt the aspects presence.... some only generic 'something' but several have been able to identify the exact aspect I was working with at the time.
Your addition of "But do you believe it possible that we can use some of Gods' energy for ourselves personally?" Opens up another big can of worms.... that of magic or miricals.
and the basic answer is that yes we can, most of us do every day. Its natural and anyone can do it... in fact everyone DOES do it, even those who don't believe in magic. Before people start jumping on their high horse over this I best explain how I see it as working.
It involves the 'arrow of time' (CF Stephen Hawkins) Now is the point of action, the past is a single fixed line, the future splays out like a web, each set of possibilitys leading off from the now..... The point of now moves forward and as it reaches each set of possibilitys, one of the happens and is set into the line of the past as now moves forward again, the other possibilitys being lost..... 'Now' is the point where we open the box to find if the cat is alive!
Where magic comes in is in making certain of those possibilitys more or less likely to be the one realised. The universe itself is not sentient, it doesn't care if it rain now or if it waits the ten minutes whilst you walk home.... you care and you have WILL, your will, if focused, CAN make it more likely that you get the outcome you want (In that case, reaching home without getting soaked)
As you can see, magic would be just about impossible to 'proove' as ANY individual occurance COULD simply be co-incidence. All 'I' say is that I tried X, Y happened and that X and Y may or may not be related...... however, the reason for my belief is in the question "How many co-incidences does it take to stop being a co-incidence?". Apart from in one aspect of my health I am considered 'lucky', if I need something it usualy turns up.... short of money... sudden tax refund. Looking for something in particular.... find the last one in the shop misplaced and behind something else... quite often at a budget price.... all co-incidences
People around me, co-incidentaly, tend to recover from illness or operations rather quickly too...... none of this is proof, but it does lead to belief!
Thats all it takes, applied will. We all do that every day.... in the form of 'working magic', prayer or even simple hope... it all can have a bearing on which possibility is actualised.
Phew! Hope that rable made sense
Finaly to Chauncy. From reading what I've written so far it should be obvious that I don't believe in the existance of anything that COULD pass 'final judgement' unless you count passing judgement on yourself.
Falco, you touch on how you view "miraculous healing and such" as you put it but could you clarify a bit. You seem to believe you have something of the like at work in your life but wheren't clear on the matter.
As for the actual next question, I'm going to bounce of Chauncy's one and ask....
We are born, we live our life, we die..... In your theological PoV... what next (If anything)?
Firstly, Venomshocker. The answer to that is both yes and no! On one level ALL the gods from those of the first proto thologic caveman (Who tended to focus on natural events.... thunder became personified because they couldn't understand/explain it any other way and so on through an ever increacing pantheon) through Sumarian, Greek, Egyptian... right upto The Christian god, Allah ect... all exist, in that enough people have believed in them to create an archetype of that diety which has a form of existance in isolation. Any of these archetypes can be accessed and worked with by someone with an affinity for that particular one. I have worked with MANY such archetypes and accnowledge that they all do indeed come from the same source.... thats the yes bit!
However, I accnowledge them as constructs. Before there was sentient life that needed to impose such mechanisms onto the energy of the universe in an attempt to understand it (And to understand themselves) there was nothing that any of us could have called a god. Just the basic, non-sentient energy. It doesn't make them any less real to those interacting with them, but it does limit them... there is no such thing as omnipitence or omnipowerful and they are created by finite minds.... anything finite will always have some limits (Else it wouldn't be finite!)
So whilst I can access a pantheistic range of diety forms in my search for understanding, I am always aware that they are not the totality of the divine and that the true nature of the divine is just energy and whilst respected is not something to be 'worshiped'. You don't worship a hurricane or a bolt of lightning.... divine energy is just as natural as those.
Falco, as you no doubt see, part of the answer to you is in the above and don't worry about sounding silly. There is always going to be some folks that consider your PoV silly simply because it disagrees with theirs. Thats why I stated what I did in the initial post, this thread is examining OUR silly ideas.... they can take their silly idea's to another thread
But to elaborate. Whilst I acknowledge that the truth of divinity is nothing more than energy, energy is difficult to relate to, you can't ask it things and it can't respond..... So I do use the anthropomorphic archetypes and work with 'god/dess' forms. Not to 'worship' as stated its a bit pointless 'worshiping' energy. Mostly I use the forms meditationaly in examinig aspects of myself to better undertand me... Invoking an archetype which typifies the aspect of myself and trying to understand it.... basicaly useing the archetype to better communicate with my subconsious. No they don't manifest physicaly and good, can you imagine having to get the shovel out to clear up after a ganesha invokation (Ganesh - Indian Elephant headed diety)
But they can sometimes have a phyical effect. I've had several people that have been in the same building whilst I've been working claim to have felt the aspects presence.... some only generic 'something' but several have been able to identify the exact aspect I was working with at the time.Your addition of "But do you believe it possible that we can use some of Gods' energy for ourselves personally?" Opens up another big can of worms.... that of magic or miricals.
and the basic answer is that yes we can, most of us do every day. Its natural and anyone can do it... in fact everyone DOES do it, even those who don't believe in magic. Before people start jumping on their high horse over this I best explain how I see it as working.
It involves the 'arrow of time' (CF Stephen Hawkins) Now is the point of action, the past is a single fixed line, the future splays out like a web, each set of possibilitys leading off from the now..... The point of now moves forward and as it reaches each set of possibilitys, one of the happens and is set into the line of the past as now moves forward again, the other possibilitys being lost..... 'Now' is the point where we open the box to find if the cat is alive!
Where magic comes in is in making certain of those possibilitys more or less likely to be the one realised. The universe itself is not sentient, it doesn't care if it rain now or if it waits the ten minutes whilst you walk home.... you care and you have WILL, your will, if focused, CAN make it more likely that you get the outcome you want (In that case, reaching home without getting soaked)
As you can see, magic would be just about impossible to 'proove' as ANY individual occurance COULD simply be co-incidence. All 'I' say is that I tried X, Y happened and that X and Y may or may not be related...... however, the reason for my belief is in the question "How many co-incidences does it take to stop being a co-incidence?". Apart from in one aspect of my health I am considered 'lucky', if I need something it usualy turns up.... short of money... sudden tax refund. Looking for something in particular.... find the last one in the shop misplaced and behind something else... quite often at a budget price.... all co-incidences
People around me, co-incidentaly, tend to recover from illness or operations rather quickly too...... none of this is proof, but it does lead to belief!
Thats all it takes, applied will. We all do that every day.... in the form of 'working magic', prayer or even simple hope... it all can have a bearing on which possibility is actualised.
Phew! Hope that rable made sense
Finaly to Chauncy. From reading what I've written so far it should be obvious that I don't believe in the existance of anything that COULD pass 'final judgement' unless you count passing judgement on yourself.
Falco, you touch on how you view "miraculous healing and such" as you put it but could you clarify a bit. You seem to believe you have something of the like at work in your life but wheren't clear on the matter.
As for the actual next question, I'm going to bounce of Chauncy's one and ask....
We are born, we live our life, we die..... In your theological PoV... what next (If anything)?
| QUOTE (Chauncy @ Jun 9 2004, 05:19 PM) |
| Wow what a great thread......why wasn't I invited. .....jjk |
Oh and Chauncy....
This thread happened because I spotted a few things Falco said about his beliefs and thought he'd be an interesting person to discuss theology with, nothing stopping you approaching someone and starting a similar thread. I just find it workes best with two main protaganists (And the occassional peanut from the gallery besides) but would enjoy if several pairs of people started such threads in a similar constructive vein rather than the typical level of "But the bible says...." answered by "Your an idiot!". If such other threads do start then I'll enjoy reading and, where appropriate, will throw a few 'peanuts' myself
Actually I wanted Chauncy to post his view on God here. He asked me about a day before you did to start the same basic thread as we have. I was unsure at the time whether I wanted to put my views out there for everyone to see, but after some thought I was ready to do so and so accepted your challenge. Given that, I asked him to post his view here, since I didn't want to start a seperate thread with him going over the same things I'm saying here..
About 20 minutes after that, Snuffypuffer started his God thread and I felt very foolish..
The fault was mine and I apologize to you Fenris if it went against what you wanted to see here..
So, in my next post, I'll get back to the business at hand and answer your questions, but what happens after Death is one of the most difficult questions ever, and it will take a few hours to think how to word my reply...
About 20 minutes after that, Snuffypuffer started his God thread and I felt very foolish..
The fault was mine and I apologize to you Fenris if it went against what you wanted to see here..
So, in my next post, I'll get back to the business at hand and answer your questions, but what happens after Death is one of the most difficult questions ever, and it will take a few hours to think how to word my reply...
Falco and Fenris I posted some of my beliefs in the post above Venomshocker's.
I can and will elaborate more per any questions. I'm enjoying this thread very much.
I also took the oppurtunity to post on the newly formed God thread.
Have edited so below and see Im's that I have sent
I can and will elaborate more per any questions. I'm enjoying this thread very much.
I also took the oppurtunity to post on the newly formed God thread.
Have edited so below and see Im's that I have sent
Chauncy and Venomshocker I have sent you both Im's about these last number of posts...
This is a debate.... not and flame war or an I did/ you didn't if you feel the need to talk about it start another thread...
Thanks for listening
This is a debate.... not and flame war or an I did/ you didn't if you feel the need to talk about it start another thread...
Thanks for listening
Please let's not threadjack in the name of Semantics. It's not really the name of something that's important here. If the ideas expressed here resemble Pantheism in some form that's fine. I've never bothered to really put a name to what I believe myself..
Falco, no problems at all, I just found in the past that things run smoother with two MAIN participants and others adding bits from the sidelines, Chauncys contribution has been both welcome and constructive and I see no problem in continuing as we have been.
As for whatever was deleted, as I understand the term a Pantheist believes all gods are one god, whilst I believe all gods are constructs and the energy behind them does not conform to anything you could lable 'god' hope that clears up any confusion, If Venom wants to go into it further he is welcome to start another thread with his PoV and I will answer any relevant points there rather than break the flow of this current thread.
As for whatever was deleted, as I understand the term a Pantheist believes all gods are one god, whilst I believe all gods are constructs and the energy behind them does not conform to anything you could lable 'god' hope that clears up any confusion, If Venom wants to go into it further he is welcome to start another thread with his PoV and I will answer any relevant points there rather than break the flow of this current thread.
As I stated in my previous post about my beliefs I have overcome the need to personify this natural energy of our universe. Rising above this personified notion is difficult for many since the only reference we have for understanding is that which we have become accustume to.
Falco had mentioned that he at times likes to meditate or concentrate on the nature of this energy. I too try to focus on this energy as an attempt to become more in tune with it. I essentially want to tap right into this very frequency. Its kind of neat that the more often you attempt this the more equipped you are to do it again.
I feel that you can do this concentration not only in a meditation sense but in everyday life. Whether it be figuring out a problem or trying to relate to another, I feel that being in tune with this energy will better equip us in any endeavor.
Falco had mentioned that he at times likes to meditate or concentrate on the nature of this energy. I too try to focus on this energy as an attempt to become more in tune with it. I essentially want to tap right into this very frequency. Its kind of neat that the more often you attempt this the more equipped you are to do it again.
I feel that you can do this concentration not only in a meditation sense but in everyday life. Whether it be figuring out a problem or trying to relate to another, I feel that being in tune with this energy will better equip us in any endeavor.
Allright then, back on topic..
I believe that after you die your "soul" for lack of a better term splits into two parts. The first part, which is the basic life energy that everyone posesses, is reabsorbed by "God" or whatever you feel comfortable calling the Divine Force..
The second part, which consists of our memories and personalities and whatever makes each one of us uniquely us, travels to what some would term the Afterlife..
Just what the Afterlife is seems to vary with the individual, at least based on the Near Death Experiences I've heard about. Everyone seems to see what they expect..
That is why I suggested there may be multiple levels to the Afterlife. It seems unlikely to me that our minds can create an entire World after death, but I do think that our minds, recently freed from our bodies, may need time to adjust to a new state of being. Therefore maybe we create a dream afterlife of sorts until we've adjusted to the point where we're ready to take the next step into the world beyond.As to what that may be I can't even speculate at this point. Of course OBEs' may be merely dreams in the first place and we're merely absorbed into the Universe and that's it, but, if as you said, Your mere will can effect the physical world, it seems unlikely to me that something so strong would just cease to exist.
And yes I have had an incident where it seemed like I was miraculously healed. I don't know if that actually was the case as the Body can do some amazing things on it's own. But the change from severely injured to just about normal was so abrupt that it was shocking..
My next question for you is a bit of a light-weight, but I'm curious just the same..If you can work with your will to help cause physical effects, some might call that magic. Given that, is there really a light and dark side to that like some Wiccans have told me? If we're not judged by some Higher power, why would we be negatively ffected by using so-called Black Magic? It would seem that individual interpretation of what was positive and negative would be the most important thing in this case.
EDIT
I'm not trying to get us to discuss the nature of morality here either. I think we covered every possible angle of that on Snuffys' thread. I just mean, if your own morality allows for killing with no justification, and you could somehow work your will to make that happen, why would it come back to haunt you? Your perception of the act would be all that matters from a mystical sense, wouldn't it?
I believe that after you die your "soul" for lack of a better term splits into two parts. The first part, which is the basic life energy that everyone posesses, is reabsorbed by "God" or whatever you feel comfortable calling the Divine Force..
The second part, which consists of our memories and personalities and whatever makes each one of us uniquely us, travels to what some would term the Afterlife..
Just what the Afterlife is seems to vary with the individual, at least based on the Near Death Experiences I've heard about. Everyone seems to see what they expect..
That is why I suggested there may be multiple levels to the Afterlife. It seems unlikely to me that our minds can create an entire World after death, but I do think that our minds, recently freed from our bodies, may need time to adjust to a new state of being. Therefore maybe we create a dream afterlife of sorts until we've adjusted to the point where we're ready to take the next step into the world beyond.As to what that may be I can't even speculate at this point. Of course OBEs' may be merely dreams in the first place and we're merely absorbed into the Universe and that's it, but, if as you said, Your mere will can effect the physical world, it seems unlikely to me that something so strong would just cease to exist.
And yes I have had an incident where it seemed like I was miraculously healed. I don't know if that actually was the case as the Body can do some amazing things on it's own. But the change from severely injured to just about normal was so abrupt that it was shocking..
My next question for you is a bit of a light-weight, but I'm curious just the same..If you can work with your will to help cause physical effects, some might call that magic. Given that, is there really a light and dark side to that like some Wiccans have told me? If we're not judged by some Higher power, why would we be negatively ffected by using so-called Black Magic? It would seem that individual interpretation of what was positive and negative would be the most important thing in this case.
EDIT
I'm not trying to get us to discuss the nature of morality here either. I think we covered every possible angle of that on Snuffys' thread. I just mean, if your own morality allows for killing with no justification, and you could somehow work your will to make that happen, why would it come back to haunt you? Your perception of the act would be all that matters from a mystical sense, wouldn't it?
I believe in death we do continue.
From the second we are born we start to absorb energies through experiences and interactions. Throughout our lives we continue to absorb these energies that ultimately become our own personal energy signature. When our bodies cease to work this energy is released.
From this point of release I believe we have many roads to choose from, just like in life. Sometimes as Falco pointed out it takes time to adapt to this new state of being, I believe that sometimes the attachement to our old existence is too strong and thus an individual may choose to stay amongst the non-released energies....almost as if they are in a stage of denial, or have not absorbed enough energy through out life to exist else where.
While we are living we can, and some people most definitely do, harness that energy we have absorbed. The harnessing of this energy and the application of it can be directed at a wounded body or heart or mind, thus occurences of healing. Some do this at will some do it unintentionally.
As far as this harnessing and directing of energy is concerned. It can be done in a negative way as well. Some people are subject to and absorb negative energy. Some of them can harness and direct this negative energy just the same as those can with positive energy.
These negative energy users are so because I believe that they were subject to negative force enough that they further choose to keep on absorbing it and seek it out. Now the danger I believe is when someone of this negative energy becomes aware and in tune with it, and then they are able to harness it just as effectively as their positive counter parts.
All the ancient works of magic and such whether they be for good use or bad, are simply instructions on how to harness and increase indeed maintain this energy and use it to its full potential. We choose how to direct this energy.
To elaborate a little, I also believe that there is ALSO a central energy woven through out the universe that is not designated positive or negative. To tap into this energy force one could use it to however they saw fit....positively or negatively.
From the second we are born we start to absorb energies through experiences and interactions. Throughout our lives we continue to absorb these energies that ultimately become our own personal energy signature. When our bodies cease to work this energy is released.
From this point of release I believe we have many roads to choose from, just like in life. Sometimes as Falco pointed out it takes time to adapt to this new state of being, I believe that sometimes the attachement to our old existence is too strong and thus an individual may choose to stay amongst the non-released energies....almost as if they are in a stage of denial, or have not absorbed enough energy through out life to exist else where.
While we are living we can, and some people most definitely do, harness that energy we have absorbed. The harnessing of this energy and the application of it can be directed at a wounded body or heart or mind, thus occurences of healing. Some do this at will some do it unintentionally.
As far as this harnessing and directing of energy is concerned. It can be done in a negative way as well. Some people are subject to and absorb negative energy. Some of them can harness and direct this negative energy just the same as those can with positive energy.
These negative energy users are so because I believe that they were subject to negative force enough that they further choose to keep on absorbing it and seek it out. Now the danger I believe is when someone of this negative energy becomes aware and in tune with it, and then they are able to harness it just as effectively as their positive counter parts.
All the ancient works of magic and such whether they be for good use or bad, are simply instructions on how to harness and increase indeed maintain this energy and use it to its full potential. We choose how to direct this energy.
To elaborate a little, I also believe that there is ALSO a central energy woven through out the universe that is not designated positive or negative. To tap into this energy force one could use it to however they saw fit....positively or negatively.
It isn't a moral issue realy, but more one that borders on science. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction..... thats the scientific quote, but in dealing with energy/magic it seems to be a greater opposite reaction, at least thats what I've percieved.
Now I don't adhere to to the christian formed lables of 'good' and 'bad' actions with all the moralistic overtones, but rather positive (benificial) and negative (Harmful) with no moralistic conotations.
When your intent is negative, the way you effect the energy is similarly negative, so when the energys balance out and you get the 'opposite' reaction, your likely to experience a build up of negativity that will effect events around and to you in a negative way...... Of course if your using positive energys, it can work to your advantage with the opposite effect being a benificial one.
You may note a distinct simerlarity in effect as Karma and you'd be right!
HOWEVER, the very fact that whatever "Wiccans" you were talking to where using terms such as light and dark in relation to 'magic' makes me strongly doubt they are reliable sorces of information... rather what many of us refer to as 'fluffy bunnies'.
OK next question, a subject dear to many of this forums members......
Ghosts, poltergeists and things that go bump in the night.... from your PoV of the way the universe works, what are they and how do they occur?
Now I don't adhere to to the christian formed lables of 'good' and 'bad' actions with all the moralistic overtones, but rather positive (benificial) and negative (Harmful) with no moralistic conotations.
When your intent is negative, the way you effect the energy is similarly negative, so when the energys balance out and you get the 'opposite' reaction, your likely to experience a build up of negativity that will effect events around and to you in a negative way...... Of course if your using positive energys, it can work to your advantage with the opposite effect being a benificial one.
You may note a distinct simerlarity in effect as Karma and you'd be right!
HOWEVER, the very fact that whatever "Wiccans" you were talking to where using terms such as light and dark in relation to 'magic' makes me strongly doubt they are reliable sorces of information... rather what many of us refer to as 'fluffy bunnies'.
OK next question, a subject dear to many of this forums members......
Ghosts, poltergeists and things that go bump in the night.... from your PoV of the way the universe works, what are they and how do they occur?
To compleat the set I'll also answer my own question Re:Death as it certainly looks like an issue where, whilst there are again some points of simerlarity, there are significant diffrences.
We all seem to agree that part of what makes a living being is a portion of the divine energy, a divine spark if you will (I don't use the lable 'soul' as that carrys to much distracting baggage about the nature of that 'spark') but that isn't all we are, we have personality and memory.... those three aspects inhabit the body and voila you have a living being.....
The body is simply a shell, a vehical for the person. It is 'MY body' a posession and on death its served its perpouse and can decompose back into the food chain.
The divine spark, returns to source becomes once more part of the general energy of the divine nature of the universe (It may later be once more part of a person, but that is a new person and has no firm connection to the last one, the spark does not carry memory)
So we are left with the personality and memory.... Here I refer to the Kabbalistic Akashic records.... in essence this is our collective subconsious and it is this that the personality and memory become a part of when the spark leaves them behind to rejoin the main divine energy.
They no longer constitute a person, the spark of life has left, what is left is static and unchanging, like a file on a hard drive. It can be accessed by those with an affinity with that personality, giving rise to the likes of 'spirit mediums', spirit guides and past life memorys.
I do find it interesting that both Falco and myself have indipendently formulated a splitting off effect of the divine aspect
We all seem to agree that part of what makes a living being is a portion of the divine energy, a divine spark if you will (I don't use the lable 'soul' as that carrys to much distracting baggage about the nature of that 'spark') but that isn't all we are, we have personality and memory.... those three aspects inhabit the body and voila you have a living being.....
The body is simply a shell, a vehical for the person. It is 'MY body' a posession and on death its served its perpouse and can decompose back into the food chain.
The divine spark, returns to source becomes once more part of the general energy of the divine nature of the universe (It may later be once more part of a person, but that is a new person and has no firm connection to the last one, the spark does not carry memory)
So we are left with the personality and memory.... Here I refer to the Kabbalistic Akashic records.... in essence this is our collective subconsious and it is this that the personality and memory become a part of when the spark leaves them behind to rejoin the main divine energy.
They no longer constitute a person, the spark of life has left, what is left is static and unchanging, like a file on a hard drive. It can be accessed by those with an affinity with that personality, giving rise to the likes of 'spirit mediums', spirit guides and past life memorys.
I do find it interesting that both Falco and myself have indipendently formulated a splitting off effect of the divine aspect
Fenris,
I like your way of thinking. Let me ask a question though so I can kind of dumb it down to my level. You believe in an energy force that has no personality, no wants, no needs, no feelings, etc? And if that's correct, you believe in evolution?
I like your way of thinking. Let me ask a question though so I can kind of dumb it down to my level
. You believe in an energy force that has no personality, no wants, no needs, no feelings, etc? And if that's correct, you believe in evolution?
| QUOTE (MoonBaby @ Jun 10 2004, 10:38 PM) |
| Fenris, I like your way of thinking. Let me ask a question though so I can kind of dumb it down to my level . You believe in an energy force that has no personality, no wants, no needs, no feelings, etc? And if that's correct, you believe in evolution? |
Correct. Whilst the energy does follow certain 'rules' it is not sentient, has no will, no personality, simply a force of nature (Or I suppose 'supernature' in that it is beyod current sciences ability to test it to work out its 'rules')
As for evolution, absolutely you CAN'T justifiably claim even a passing aquaintance with science and NOT believe in evolution!
| QUOTE |
| do find it interesting that both Falco and myself have indipendently formulated a splitting off effect of the divine aspect. |
Thats interesting you guys came to that conclusion. There seems to be evidence of this across all world religons. I find this idea fascinating, and heres some more info on it from this guys PoV.
http://www.divisiontheory.com
Thanks for the link Venomshocker. I once read a quote that said the problem with Philosophy is that whenever you think you've discovered something profound, you find out the Greeks already thought of it 3000 years ago. This seems to be the case with Religion too..
Now, Ghosts and Spirits! At last some light mental exercise. As several of these types of phenomenon seem to differ, I'll deal with them individually..
1. Poltergeists- I think poltergeists are not spirits at all. They appear to be a form of destructive energy that centers around a person. The fact that they manifest almost exclusively around teenagers and people prone to high emotional states leads me to believe that it is these people themselves generating this force subconciously. Or perhaps they are merely tapping into the Divine Well as it were..
2. Playbacks- The famous sightings of ghosts that always do the same thing or follow a set path of travel have often been explained as a moment caught in time replaying itself. It seems that for whatever reasons that some things are "Recorded" somehow, and are played back years later like a ghostly movie. I have no idea how to explain this in regards to physics, but I'm sure it can be done by someone more knowledgable than myself. The fact that these "Ghosts" have no intelligence and no purpose other than to repeat the same act over and over makes me think that they also are not spirits in the traditional sense.
3. Most other Ghosts including Dead Relatives, House haunters, Historical Ghosts,et al...
- I believe that almost every one of these can be explained by a number of things. Wishful thinking, sleep paralysis, paranoia or fear, the power of suggestion, hallucination and mental illness to name just a few...
And finally we come to the final type that doesn't seem to fit any of these categories..
4. Thought Forms- I remember reading once about how some Tibetan and Nepalese Lamas are able to create semi-physical beings purely from thought. These beings had only rudimentary intelligence but had thier own will. The Lamas controlled thier actions as a meditation exercise for themselves. If they lost control of the spirit they had made it was free to act however they pleased, and those actions were not necessarily good and could sometimes be mischievious or downright evil. However, invariably these beings only existed temporarily and disappeared when whatever energy they had been invested with was used up. To me, an unconsciously created thought that wasn't bound to anyone that had the ability to control it could explain any number of so-called "Ghosts."
I find it interesting, now that I think about it, that Tibetan thought forms sound much like the Aspects of different Gods Fenris reffered to. I wonder if that's working along the same lines?
So, as you see, superstition and things that go bump in the night don't play a large role in my version of Theology, as most of it can be explained by Physics or Psychology and what can't seems to be a product of our own energies..
You mentioned previously that your Theology incorporated Wicca, Shamanism and the Qabbala. What aspects of each have you taken for your own? Or have you incorporated all three belief systems in thier entirety?
That's probably a short answer question. If it is feel free to expound on a subject of your choice if you feel your post will be too short..
Now, Ghosts and Spirits! At last some light mental exercise. As several of these types of phenomenon seem to differ, I'll deal with them individually..
1. Poltergeists- I think poltergeists are not spirits at all. They appear to be a form of destructive energy that centers around a person. The fact that they manifest almost exclusively around teenagers and people prone to high emotional states leads me to believe that it is these people themselves generating this force subconciously. Or perhaps they are merely tapping into the Divine Well as it were..
2. Playbacks- The famous sightings of ghosts that always do the same thing or follow a set path of travel have often been explained as a moment caught in time replaying itself. It seems that for whatever reasons that some things are "Recorded" somehow, and are played back years later like a ghostly movie. I have no idea how to explain this in regards to physics, but I'm sure it can be done by someone more knowledgable than myself. The fact that these "Ghosts" have no intelligence and no purpose other than to repeat the same act over and over makes me think that they also are not spirits in the traditional sense.
3. Most other Ghosts including Dead Relatives, House haunters, Historical Ghosts,et al...
- I believe that almost every one of these can be explained by a number of things. Wishful thinking, sleep paralysis, paranoia or fear, the power of suggestion, hallucination and mental illness to name just a few...
And finally we come to the final type that doesn't seem to fit any of these categories..
4. Thought Forms- I remember reading once about how some Tibetan and Nepalese Lamas are able to create semi-physical beings purely from thought. These beings had only rudimentary intelligence but had thier own will. The Lamas controlled thier actions as a meditation exercise for themselves. If they lost control of the spirit they had made it was free to act however they pleased, and those actions were not necessarily good and could sometimes be mischievious or downright evil. However, invariably these beings only existed temporarily and disappeared when whatever energy they had been invested with was used up. To me, an unconsciously created thought that wasn't bound to anyone that had the ability to control it could explain any number of so-called "Ghosts."
I find it interesting, now that I think about it, that Tibetan thought forms sound much like the Aspects of different Gods Fenris reffered to. I wonder if that's working along the same lines?
So, as you see, superstition and things that go bump in the night don't play a large role in my version of Theology, as most of it can be explained by Physics or Psychology and what can't seems to be a product of our own energies..
You mentioned previously that your Theology incorporated Wicca, Shamanism and the Qabbala. What aspects of each have you taken for your own? Or have you incorporated all three belief systems in thier entirety?
That's probably a short answer question. If it is feel free to expound on a subject of your choice if you feel your post will be too short..
| QUOTE |
| I find it interesting, now that I think about it, that Tibetan thought forms sound much like the Aspects of different Gods Fenris reffered to. I wonder if that's working along the same lines? |
Very much along the same lines, the main diffrence between a 'standard' thought form and a god/dess aspect is the inclusion of the archetype from the akashic records/collective subconsious. As I see it there are many diffrent types of 'thought form' all using the same base principles, the Tibetan ones you reffrence and the aspects, to me, are but two of them.
| QUOTE |
| You mentioned previously that your Theology incorporated Wicca, Shamanism and the Qabbala. What aspects of each have you taken for your own? Or have you incorporated all three belief systems in thier entirety? |
Its difficult to deal with them in isolation as they where part of the path that brought me to where I am now, and the reasons they where the right choise at the time are as important to undertanding their impact as the tenets of each themself. So, a description of what brought me to this point....
Warning, some of it isn't pleasent!
Even going back to my earliest memorys around age 2, there are events that defy standard scientific analysis. Out of body experiences, finding myself riding as 'passenger' in an animal in the local area, other forms of 'remote viewing', limited spontanious pre-cog, being visited and talked to by my grandfather some few hours after he had actualy died........
Now the only theological influence in my enviroment was Catholic christianity.... and that simply didn't have any answers for what I was experiencing. One particularly blinkered individual even mentioned 'demonic possession' which I instinctivly knew was not the case.
After turning my back on the church at age 7, I started looking for my own answers, it took a number of years but eventualy I fell in with a gentleman who not only seemed to understand the experiences and relate similar experiences of his own (And when he did so i could 'feel' the truth of it, I 'knew' he was relating actual experiences that mirrored those of my own) and moreover he was able to help me consiously invoke several of the experiences in a more controlled manner where I could study them and learn from them. It was he who initiated me as a shaman.
He did have several shortfalls as a teacher however, namely I was being taught how to invoke the innate abilitys and then go with the flow, follow them and learn from them but not control them...... Then teenage hit with a vengence. A year or two after parting ways with him (He moved and we lost touch) Events in my life turned me into a very angry young man...... You can probably guess just how destructive the combination of that mind set and those abilitys are, especialy in refrence to what I later discovered about the 'equal and opposite reaction' of negative energy.... Anger and no control ment a great deal of negativity in my enviroment. Many people suffered a great deal of unfortunate 'co-incidences' not least myself.
Approaching late teenage I had developed into nothing more than a violent nasty animal and self destructive to boot (Alchoholism and exteame risk taking). Its said that when you can't go any lower, you face a chose.... I was there and the choise was this.... I realised I was someone whom I dispised and I either had to find a way to change that person..... or finish it because continuing as that person became something I was not prepaired to do.
Luckaly I had continued looking for answers even as the rest of my life was flushing itself down the toilet.... at that point I was examining aspects of eastern religion, and in that I was able to find enough inner peace to be able to work on myself. I went cold-turkey on the booze for a full year until I was sure I could control it rather than it controlling me and started developing anger management techniques....... of course this automaticaly lessened the amount of negativity I was throwing out and corespondingly the amount of negative impact on my life also lessened!
Most of the work during this time was medative, self exploratory and working on internal energys to redirect anger into a less negative responce pattern (I started verbaly exploding when annoyed rather than automaticaly hospitalising the person who made me angry).
This continued with gradual improvement both in the quality of life and stability, I was slowly but surely becomming someone I could tolerate and even, in some aspects, someone I saw I could eventualy like.... I was moving in the right direction
At the time one of the groups of people I was frequently interacting with was authors and I ended up corresponding breifly with one who was a wiccan. Who I'd read seemed sanitised and fluffy, but what he was saying was more real and made sense, I felt drawn to learn more so he organised an introduction to a lady a couple of hours away from where I lived. An innitiate of his who had hived off and formed her own coven....
Now I had started to develop a little self control on a personal level, but during my year and a day neophyting I began to realise how little control I had in my working and with my energys. She had her faults (Ego) but was a GREAT teacher, my learning curve went through the roof in all sorts of ways, especialy in control and understanding..... finaly I was starting to find the answers I'd been seeking, I began to understand not just how to do what I was doing but also the whys and, in some cases, the why nots. Whilst I would intuitivly take the easiest method in achieving the goal I had set, she taught me that the easiest way is not always the best way. I stopped the last of the negative enery projection and used the effect to my own benifit, invoking possitive energys.
My HPS (High priestess) was also a cabbalah innitiate and a couple of year in, I was asking questions and examining areas that wicca doesn't much touch on.... I was running out of lables to explain what I was doing and experiencing. Thats when she introduced me the the Kabbalah. The whole thing is steeped in Judeo-Christian symbolism and rhetoric but there are very useful tools in there. The Cabbalistic 'tree of life' is quite frankly one of the most versitile tools I have encountered to date. It not only provides a way to lable and therefore discuss the entire range of theological and metaphysical experience, but also a great structure for deep meditation.
Eventualy however I'd exhausted what I could learn from her, I'd learned to work with a group..... only to find I worked better alone. I learned to use 'working tools' .... only to find I didn't need them. I learnt to work with many god/dess forms... only to see through them to the raw energy of the universe at their core. I realised it was time to spread my wings and fly alone... only to find that as in most organisations, her ego didn't want to relinquish her percieved control..... I left anyhow.
So apart from the roles they played in my life, what do I currently take from each?
I am a shaman in the way I innately work, instinctual. I am a wiccan in the amount of care and control I apply to that working and I am a Cabbalist in the way I understand and can discuss that working!
Here's a question that may require some thought.... In what way does your theology , your beliefs manifest in your everyday life.... is it something you take time out to 'do' or is it integrated into the way you live?
I don't want to butt in too much, so I'll be brief. Guys, I am thoroughly enjoying this thread! I share many ideas with both of you and I'm looking forward to reading more of your discussion!
I am writing because I have a question for you, Fenris. In a previous post, you asked this question:
I share many ideas with both of you and I'm looking forward to reading more of your discussion!I am writing because I have a question for you, Fenris. In a previous post, you asked this question:
| QUOTE (Fenris) |
| Ghosts, poltergeists and things that go bump in the night.... from your PoV of the way the universe works, what are they and how do they occur? |
If you don't mind, I'd like for you to answer your own question. Thanks!
This may sound strange, but I find that my beliefs effect me more in thier absence than thier presence. To clarify a bit, If God doesn't watch me ,judge me, or punish me, then it is up to me to do these things myself. Therefore I try to perform no action that I would condemn myself. If there is no real judgement at the end of life then the responsibility of judging my worth and actions falls upon me while I'm alive.
Although I do believe in Karma I think it's as random a force as God. We all know there's some who don't get what they deserve in life. I don't want to rely on randomness to judge whether my actions merit punishment or not.
In short I place the responsibility of what I am firmly on my own shoulders. Living up to your own standards can be an incredibly difficult thing at times, but I do the best I can with it.
To use some alliteration, If I'm truly the captain of my own ship, it's up to me to run the kind of ship I'd like to sail on. When I fail to live life as I'd like to there's no Higher Power to confess to or ask forgiveness so it seems best to me to not need absolution in the first place..
There's nothing I really "Do" as part of an everyday religious routine except for occasional meditation like I've mentioned. Although these peaceful moments are getting few and far between as my son gets older I really don't feel I'm lacking in any way because of it.
I realize that the above views sound Atheistic in tone, but really they aren't. I just believe that since "God" provided us with free will and higher thought, he/she/it wouldn't interrupt our gifts by imposing judgement or Dogma upon us. It would make the original gift worthless..
I hope that made some sense to you readers out there..
I'll ask another fairly easy question of you Fenris,since you'll no doubt want to reply to Permakid as well. I believe you mentioned in another thread that you had two sons. How does your belief effect them,if at all? Do you educate them on your views, or are you content that they find thier own center alone? And how do your beliefs effect the way you bring them up?
Although I do believe in Karma I think it's as random a force as God. We all know there's some who don't get what they deserve in life. I don't want to rely on randomness to judge whether my actions merit punishment or not.
In short I place the responsibility of what I am firmly on my own shoulders. Living up to your own standards can be an incredibly difficult thing at times, but I do the best I can with it.
To use some alliteration, If I'm truly the captain of my own ship, it's up to me to run the kind of ship I'd like to sail on. When I fail to live life as I'd like to there's no Higher Power to confess to or ask forgiveness so it seems best to me to not need absolution in the first place..
There's nothing I really "Do" as part of an everyday religious routine except for occasional meditation like I've mentioned. Although these peaceful moments are getting few and far between as my son gets older I really don't feel I'm lacking in any way because of it.
I realize that the above views sound Atheistic in tone, but really they aren't. I just believe that since "God" provided us with free will and higher thought, he/she/it wouldn't interrupt our gifts by imposing judgement or Dogma upon us. It would make the original gift worthless..
I hope that made some sense to you readers out there..
I'll ask another fairly easy question of you Fenris,since you'll no doubt want to reply to Permakid as well. I believe you mentioned in another thread that you had two sons. How does your belief effect them,if at all? Do you educate them on your views, or are you content that they find thier own center alone? And how do your beliefs effect the way you bring them up?
Falco
| QUOTE |
| Although I do believe in Karma I think it's as random a force as God. We all know there's some who don't get what they deserve in life. I don't want to rely on randomness to judge whether my actions merit punishment or not. |
I like this idea of random Karma. It has been an observation of mine that the reason why what goes around comes around is because it was put out there in the first place. Where as when someone fills their life with negative actions they then create a world around them of negativity. Therefore they end up living in a negative environment and this is why it comes back to them negatively.
This is why it is always beneficial to fill our lives with this good/positive energy, so we exist in a positive environment as will those that co-exist with us.
Fenris
| QUOTE |
| Approaching late teenage I had developed into nothing more than a violent nasty animal and self destructive to boot (Alchoholism and exteame risk taking). |
I realize that we all make mistakes, would you be of the notion that the most positive thing you can do with your mistakes is gain wisdom from them. Where as in hindsight once you've realized your errors that the next step is to correct them, as you did, then finally gain from them. In essence the negative energy we create for ourselves can in fact be turned into a positive strength.
I feel that this should be the path in every aspect of life. I never get scared of failure this way because I know that I will rise up stronger and wiser. Bring it on I say!!
Permakid asked:
| QUOTE |
| I am writing because I have a question for you, Fenris. In a previous post, you asked this question: |
Not dis-similar to Falco on the subject of ghosts, there are several types that people use this lable for and from my PoV several causes of the phenomina.
Poltergeists, tend to apear around some teenagers and is almost certainly some form of uncontrolled telekenetic activity. Sometimes when the teen says "I never touched the vase, it just jumped off the table and smashed all by its self".... they are sort of telling the truth.
As for visual events, and ghosts that you can in some way interact with its a combination of two things (And dependent on how much each is present will determine the actions/capabilitys of the apparent ghost).
Firstly, as any scientist that has worked with electro-magnetic fields can proove, if you surround an object that is receptive with a flow of energy (Such as a coil on insulated wire round an iron bar) you can imprint the object with that energy dispite there having been no direct contact (The wire is insulated, so the energy doesn't actualy contact the object, yet if the charge is high enough and applied for long enough the metal in imprinted and begins to show that change by acting as a magnet)......
What has this got to do with ghosts? Everything! It shows energy can and does get imprinted on objects..... Apart from our bodys, what are we? Our thoughts, memorys, personality all work in energy impulses in the brain (They can even measure the impulses and tell you what sort of thing you are thinking from what part of the brain the energy is most active in!)
If we are in one place for long enough doing the same thing.... OR we have a traumatic event that releases a large enough burst of energy then we can imprint that on the surrounding objects..... That imprint can later be picked up by those receptive to doing so. Now we don't actualy 'see' objects.... our eyes see them and send impulses to the brain where we 'decode' the signal and 'see' the image. What often happens is that people pick up the imprint, but it isn't through any of our normal senses.... so it routes through a part of the brain that can make some kind of sence of whats being picked up.... your eyes aren't seeing the signal but the same part of the brain that allows you to see is doing the translation.... so you effectivly see the ghost. It also explains why some will see the ghost, others only get a 'chill down the spine' (They can sense the imprint but their brain don't know how to make sense of it!) and others get nothing at all.
Usualy these are just images, non interactive snapshots of events long ago that where imprinted on the surroundings. Remember I said there are two elements to ghosts, this is the second and rarer one but it is the cause of ALL the 'worst case senarios! Occassionaly receptive people will unwittingly empower them, turning them into thought forms where upon they can display an interactive nature.... but it isn't the imprint that is doing it.... rather the receptive person.... take them from the enviroment of somehow stop them empowering the thought form and the interactive nature stops, just leaving the base imprint again.
And pre-empting the question, yep I've seen and dealt with all the phenomenon I described, it is those experiences on which I base what I believe of the subject. In short I don't believe in 'ghosts' and so I tell any that I meet
Falco asked:
| QUOTE |
| you mentioned in another thread that you had two sons. How does your belief effect them,if at all? Do you educate them on your views, or are you content that they find thier own center alone? And how do your beliefs effect the way you bring them up? |
A bit tricky in that one as neither lives with me. The first I was very young and she wasn't(and her husband thinks its his son.... thankfully he can't count (Or doesn't want to)) I had nothing to do with his upbringing and no contact since he was born.
With my youngest his mother and I where together for around four years before she decided to find herself a better meal ticket and ripped our family apart.... But I did raise him for that time so my answer is based on that...
Given my beliefs are that everyone needs must find and walk their own path, wherever that path takes them, I don't have much Dogma to instil in a child of mine. He was encouraged to communicate and question. The few occassions he asked about other religions (Prompted by meeting kids from diffrent religions at Kindergarten) I found open minded people of those religions for him to ask.
I took the view that if he was old enough to form the question then he was old enough for some level of honest answer, it occassionaly took a bit of work from both of us to find words he could grasp and concepts he could understand but we would keep going till he was satisfied he had is question answered..... A lot of it began, "I don't know if there is any answer, but I can tell you what daddy believes... as you get older you can try and find your own answer OK"
I guess the main diffrence was that he was brought up with a healthy sense of reality..... For instance, he knew that what turned up on his plate at meal times where parts of the pigs, sheep, fish, ducks etc that he saw elsewhere. He was always told as much of the truth as he could grasp and given the oppertunity to make up his own mind.
Chauncy asked:
| QUOTE |
| would you be of the notion that the most positive thing you can do with your mistakes is gain wisdom from them |
If you don't learn from your mistakes then your doomed to repeat them! There are many unpleasent things in my past (Some that makes the things I've mentioned so far look like a rose garden!) but if I was in a position to go back and change any of it.... I wouldn't, as the rocky road which I've walked led me to being who I am today.... and I happen to like who I am now
"That which does not destroy us, only serves to make us stronger" Is something my Grandmother used to say and is SO right..... the weakest, shallowest, most nieve and bland people I've ever met have lived in spoiled protected enviroments and the biggest adversity they had to overcome was a paper cut from all the money they parent gave them..... with nothing to challenge you, you don't learn as fast!
OK Falco..... here is a hypotetical situation for you (Only sort of hypothetical as I had it happen to me) a young person (Say around 20) has known you for a while and seems more than a little impressed with the way you view the univers. You know they have been seeking the next step on their path.... they aproach you and ask "Teach me"...... how do you respond?
| QUOTE |
| OK Falco..... here is a hypotetical situation for you (Only sort of hypothetical as I had it happen to me) a young person (Say around 20) has known you for a while and seems more than a little impressed with the way you view the univers. You know they have been seeking the next step on their path.... they aproach you and ask "Teach me"...... how do you respond? |
They will learn by the example you set for them. Let them learn by being around you. Unless you're spiritually mature enough to know how to go about teaching them, you will do them more harm than good.
The world doesn't need anymore gurus, it's screwd up enough now as it is. It's precisely why religious ideology/dogma has done more to hurt people than show them how to live their lives.
They will find their own path. No one can show it for them. Don't be afraid to proffer any feelings and philosophy you may have, but don't make it sound like instructions on the how-to and wherefor of life. Let them decide what to take in or reject. Just be their friend......in reality that's all you need to do.
Spiritual mentoring (or any form for that matter) takes great maturity and even more onerous responsibility......not only to the person whom you're the mentor to, but also to yourself. The interaction runs both ways and you can't escape that.
Ozmeister covered my feelings on the subject pretty well. The only things I can add is that first I'd tell that person that being a teacher implies that I have facts to teach. All I have is theories and suppositions..
But to get a little further into it, I would have to know that person fairly well before I wanted to "Teach" my views to them. If you read my reply about how my theology effects my everyday life you'll realize just how easily it could be twisted to justify doing whatever you want, whenever you want. I'd want to know this hypothetical person well enough already to determine that they had at least some leaning towards responsibility and integrity.
My views on theology don't seem to me to be ideal for public consumption, and they definitely aren't for the lowest common denominator type..
Well, you've stated already that this has happened to you. So how did you handle the situation?
But to get a little further into it, I would have to know that person fairly well before I wanted to "Teach" my views to them. If you read my reply about how my theology effects my everyday life you'll realize just how easily it could be twisted to justify doing whatever you want, whenever you want. I'd want to know this hypothetical person well enough already to determine that they had at least some leaning towards responsibility and integrity.
My views on theology don't seem to me to be ideal for public consumption, and they definitely aren't for the lowest common denominator type..
Well, you've stated already that this has happened to you. So how did you handle the situation?
Its happened a couple of times and both times (Albeit in diffrent ways) I've pointed out that they where looking for answers in the wrong place. Nobody else knows your relationship with the divine but yourself, in 'following' another you are mearly hiding from yourself, you may get distracted by the bell's and whistles of paraphanalia, ritual and organisation but unless you work within yourself you won't make any real theological progress, and that what realy counts when in comes to religion.
All to many people seek out a 'teacher' because they want to do anything except look honestly within themselves.... afraid of what they may find!
Plus the fact that I'm not a teacher..... I've done it when I've had to. I've been an assistant lecturor handling a class of ESM adults on the mundain side.... and had responcibilitys to teach the then current crop of neophites during my time with the coven.... and when I have to, I do a reasonably good job..... but I'm not a natural teacher, I'm not drawn to do so, I don't enjoy doing so (OK watching the faces of the Neo's when I was hammering home the traps and pitfalls of specific intent in 'magic' was sorta fun
).
All to many people seek out a 'teacher' because they want to do anything except look honestly within themselves.... afraid of what they may find!
Plus the fact that I'm not a teacher..... I've done it when I've had to. I've been an assistant lecturor handling a class of ESM adults on the mundain side.... and had responcibilitys to teach the then current crop of neophites during my time with the coven.... and when I have to, I do a reasonably good job..... but I'm not a natural teacher, I'm not drawn to do so, I don't enjoy doing so (OK watching the faces of the Neo's when I was hammering home the traps and pitfalls of specific intent in 'magic' was sorta fun
). | QUOTE |
| My views on theology don't seem to me to be ideal for public consumption, and they definitely aren't for the lowest common denominator type.. |
It was precisely the fact that you where obviously seeking your own answers rather than sheep-like following anothers dogma that made me think this would be a worthwhile excersie
OK.... for his next trick, Falco will create the universe!.... erm... well rather, hopefully he will explain his views on the how and why of the universes origins
| QUOTE |
| Nobody else knows your relationship with the divine but yourself, in 'following' another you are mearly hiding from yourself, you may get distracted by the bell's and whistles of paraphanalia, ritual and organisation but unless you work within yourself you won't make any real theological progress, and that what realy counts when in comes to religion. |
Ah, man, that is an awsome statment.
I reallly,really have to say I agree with you on that. That quote is goin down in my books.
Well put.
There's really not too much I can say on the creation of the universe,not having been there myself. Of the various theories I've heard so far I believe the Big Bang holds up pretty well.
If you want to give God any credit at all for this you might say that it was a divine spark that touched off the original explosion although it's not like you could set that opinion in stone.
Something had to get everything going however. I've yet to hear a satisfactory theory from science on what that may have been. When Mysticism fails we must turn to science, and when science fails we must turn back Mysticism. The Universe seems beautifully circular that way.
In time I'm sure scientists will be able to prove the hows and whys of the Universes' origins, and when they do I'll be happy enough to believe them. Until they do, "God started it off" is a good enough explanation for my limited mind.
Perhaps this wasn't a very good answer and if not I apoligize...
I tend to keep my thoughts pragmatic if I can. I can speculate on life after death and such because someday I'll die and find out if my theories bear out or not, but there's nothing I can do to witness the Universe being born so I don't spend too much time worrying about the whys of it..
I'm going to boomerang your question back at you. Since I had such a feeble post this time around I'd like to see your view on it, it's got to be better..
If you want to give God any credit at all for this you might say that it was a divine spark that touched off the original explosion although it's not like you could set that opinion in stone.
Something had to get everything going however. I've yet to hear a satisfactory theory from science on what that may have been. When Mysticism fails we must turn to science, and when science fails we must turn back Mysticism. The Universe seems beautifully circular that way.
In time I'm sure scientists will be able to prove the hows and whys of the Universes' origins, and when they do I'll be happy enough to believe them. Until they do, "God started it off" is a good enough explanation for my limited mind.
Perhaps this wasn't a very good answer and if not I apoligize...
I tend to keep my thoughts pragmatic if I can. I can speculate on life after death and such because someday I'll die and find out if my theories bear out or not, but there's nothing I can do to witness the Universe being born so I don't spend too much time worrying about the whys of it..
I'm going to boomerang your question back at you. Since I had such a feeble post this time around I'd like to see your view on it, it's got to be better..
The more I look at the beauty of the universe and the laws which govern it, the more I come to see that there is an intelligence behind it all. That doesn't mean the intelligence is necessarily interventionist or anything like what you read in most religious texts (which I think are explanations based in ignorance for the most part....as they have been, and are presently conceived). What it means is that this intelligence created (for want of a better word) this reality in order to experience existence as it is perceived here, and to evolve and grow. It is the fundamental guiding principle (or thought, if you will) behind it all. It knew what was needed to create a living reality, so it set about defining the parameters which would allow that to occur. It then let nature take its course, so far as the material aspects of the universe are concerned. Now that intelligence is present in everything......it is nature, but it's also more than nature. It's self awareness is evident in life itself. It's sentience is evident in all entities that are aware of their self awareness.......humans for example.
God is greater than the sum of all the parts, but the parts are all God, nevertheless. Of its sentience, though no one part can be God, they can know what it is to be like God.
God is greater than the sum of all the parts, but the parts are all God, nevertheless. Of its sentience, though no one part can be God, they can know what it is to be like God.
Quite similar to Ozmeister except in one important respect.... I see no signs of inteligent thought behind it, just natural (Or super-nature) laws at work. It goes something like this....
I am an infinate energy source, my natural state is to try to be as pure an energy form as I can be.... but I have this irritating bit of matter that is part of my make up..... to work with matter, I need enough matter to work with and if I start without enough then this builds up a strain in the natural system of how I work.... that strain triggers me to convert some of my infinate energy into more matter (So I will have enough to work with).....
Thus the material univers experiences a "BIG BANG" (Note, this is a natural reaction, not a 'thought')
Now my energy, in the material world, is the energy of life and thought. So part of the 'laws' that govern the universe I create is that where possible life will develop and that life will tend toward evolving into creatures which can not only live, but also think.
Over billions upon billions of years (Which is like an eyeblink to me... I am eternal and infinate) bacteria grows to algea, to plants, to multi-celled organisms, that hunt each other leading to evasions behaviour, which requires better hunters, which means creatures evolve which are better able to 'out think' how to catch their prey and better hunted who can out think and avoid those hunters and so on, all the time raising the inteligence bar..... until creatures develop who are intelligent enough to break out of that cycle.... at this level they are intelligent to start thinking on a metaphysical level!
Physics tell us that energy can not be created, nor destroyed, just changed in form...... thinking and living, are part of the energy of the universe itself. The higher level you think and work at, the greater rate you transfer eaten matter back into life energy.
This is supported by the fact that the universe slowly gets less dense over time.... now this could also be explained by an expanding universe, or by there being less matter in the universe... probably IMO both are true. (There is also a pun in there about the more you think, the less dense you are, but I haven't had enough coffee yet )
Now eventualy, you get to the stage where a great majority of the matter has been returned to its 'pure' energy state..... however you loose the amount for matter needed to sustain life in the material world, the system collapses. You run out of thinking beings able to work on the last of the matter!
Again I am an an infinate energy source, my natural state is to try to be as pure an energy form as I can be.... but I have this irritating bit of matter that is part of my make up..... to work with matter, I need enough matter to work with...........
Etc. It has no memory and is not inteligent, it can not think one its own, it simply reacts according to the laws which govern it...... its this process being the meta-physical process behind the recuring big bang and expanding-contracting univers theory.
Its very much a 'work in progress', less my 'belief' than a best guess so far based on those things I do believe and I'll continue to question that best guess till I find a fundamental flaw in it where upon I'll modify it according to what I find.
People who believe in 'God' tend to say "We where put here for a purpose" I agree we do have a purpuse (Though we happen naturaly rather than 'being put').... that perpose is to THINK as its the one thing that the divine can't do for itself.
I seem to have been mostly choosing the directions the discussion goes in, to avoid becoming some sort of unelected 'chairman', I'll pass the question setting baton on this occassion and see where Falco wants to lead us
I am an infinate energy source, my natural state is to try to be as pure an energy form as I can be.... but I have this irritating bit of matter that is part of my make up..... to work with matter, I need enough matter to work with and if I start without enough then this builds up a strain in the natural system of how I work.... that strain triggers me to convert some of my infinate energy into more matter (So I will have enough to work with).....
Thus the material univers experiences a "BIG BANG" (Note, this is a natural reaction, not a 'thought')
Now my energy, in the material world, is the energy of life and thought. So part of the 'laws' that govern the universe I create is that where possible life will develop and that life will tend toward evolving into creatures which can not only live, but also think.
Over billions upon billions of years (Which is like an eyeblink to me... I am eternal and infinate) bacteria grows to algea, to plants, to multi-celled organisms, that hunt each other leading to evasions behaviour, which requires better hunters, which means creatures evolve which are better able to 'out think' how to catch their prey and better hunted who can out think and avoid those hunters and so on, all the time raising the inteligence bar..... until creatures develop who are intelligent enough to break out of that cycle.... at this level they are intelligent to start thinking on a metaphysical level!
Physics tell us that energy can not be created, nor destroyed, just changed in form...... thinking and living, are part of the energy of the universe itself. The higher level you think and work at, the greater rate you transfer eaten matter back into life energy.
This is supported by the fact that the universe slowly gets less dense over time.... now this could also be explained by an expanding universe, or by there being less matter in the universe... probably IMO both are true. (There is also a pun in there about the more you think, the less dense you are, but I haven't had enough coffee yet
)Now eventualy, you get to the stage where a great majority of the matter has been returned to its 'pure' energy state..... however you loose the amount for matter needed to sustain life in the material world, the system collapses. You run out of thinking beings able to work on the last of the matter!
Again I am an an infinate energy source, my natural state is to try to be as pure an energy form as I can be.... but I have this irritating bit of matter that is part of my make up..... to work with matter, I need enough matter to work with...........
Etc. It has no memory and is not inteligent, it can not think one its own, it simply reacts according to the laws which govern it...... its this process being the meta-physical process behind the recuring big bang and expanding-contracting univers theory.
Its very much a 'work in progress', less my 'belief' than a best guess so far based on those things I do believe and I'll continue to question that best guess till I find a fundamental flaw in it where upon I'll modify it according to what I find.
People who believe in 'God' tend to say "We where put here for a purpose" I agree we do have a purpuse (Though we happen naturaly rather than 'being put').... that perpose is to THINK as its the one thing that the divine can't do for itself.
I seem to have been mostly choosing the directions the discussion goes in, to avoid becoming some sort of unelected 'chairman', I'll pass the question setting baton on this occassion and see where Falco wants to lead us
The intelligence behind it all can be seen, if you know where to look and recognise it as such. Although it really depends on what you define as intelligence. However, you need to drop all preconceived notions of what intelligence is and look at it with a fresh mind.
The laws which govern the physical structure of the Universe at both quantum and higher levels are too contrived and elegant to be something like random fluctuations made by an unthinking force or energy. The matter and energy which create this Universe are so precisely balanced and finely tuned as to its characteristics that it implies a consciousness, sentience is there. We may never be able to fathom or understand what that is, but it is there.
Given the nature of quantum mechanics, the chances of an universe occuring which has all the prerequisites for life, as ours does, is virtually nil. Why??.....because there is an infinite number of possible universes which can form from all the possible random quantum energy fluctuations. Most of which will have characteristics far from the optimum for life.....in fact most will be lifeless because in each universe there is an infinite set of possible characteristics whcih it can take on. However, whilst the possibilities for life bearing universes is slim, it's not zero and given the infinite numbers of universes and possibilities, there will be a very large number of universes which will have life in them. Now, you might say, well you've just shot your original premise in the foot. With all that infinity of possibilities, that life is here is due to random processes.....non intelligent ones.
But here's the clanger......given all that infinitesimal possible randomness, what was the function that set those possibilities in a life bearing universe such as ours to be so finely tuned, that even the slightest variation of those characteristics whcih make it up would render it lifeless......possible even matterless. Why, in experiment after experiment, does it appear that the mind is intimately connected to the fundamental workings of the universe at a subatomic level.....that the observer and the observed are not only connected causally but also experientially. Though it appears to be disconnected at a macroscale, this is an illusion, but it is one which is real and has measurable effects and consequences. What causes that apparent disconnection??. Why is the force of gravity so precisely balanced in its strength when compared to the other fundamental forces of nature such that if that balance was different by 1 part in 100 trillion, we wouldn't be here to talk about this. Why is a proton exactly 1836 times heavier than an electron. It could just as easily been 200 or 2000 times an electron's weight. Why can a simple mathematical equation (a fractal) generate all the repeatable patterns that we see in nature (snowflakes for example). How come we're even here to talk about this.....the Big Bang predicates that equal amounts of matter and antimatter should be produced on the breaking of the symmetry of the false vacuum that preceded Inflation (from the energy that was present in spacetime). There appears to have been 1,000,001 particles of matter for every 1,000,000 antimatter.
I could go on here, but I won't. Too much rambling as it is. However in my mind and experience, things are just a wee bit too contrived and convenient to be the result of a completely random and thoughtless act. As for paranormal forces (supernatural if you will), they don't exist. All forces, no matter what their origin, are a part of the order of things. It's only our (very) limited understanding of them which causes us to lable them as being "paranormal", "supernatural" etc. Even God is a part of the order of things.....we just don't see that because our "vision" is limited.
The laws which govern the physical structure of the Universe at both quantum and higher levels are too contrived and elegant to be something like random fluctuations made by an unthinking force or energy. The matter and energy which create this Universe are so precisely balanced and finely tuned as to its characteristics that it implies a consciousness, sentience is there. We may never be able to fathom or understand what that is, but it is there.
Given the nature of quantum mechanics, the chances of an universe occuring which has all the prerequisites for life, as ours does, is virtually nil. Why??.....because there is an infinite number of possible universes which can form from all the possible random quantum energy fluctuations. Most of which will have characteristics far from the optimum for life.....in fact most will be lifeless because in each universe there is an infinite set of possible characteristics whcih it can take on. However, whilst the possibilities for life bearing universes is slim, it's not zero and given the infinite numbers of universes and possibilities, there will be a very large number of universes which will have life in them. Now, you might say, well you've just shot your original premise in the foot. With all that infinity of possibilities, that life is here is due to random processes.....non intelligent ones.
But here's the clanger......given all that infinitesimal possible randomness, what was the function that set those possibilities in a life bearing universe such as ours to be so finely tuned, that even the slightest variation of those characteristics whcih make it up would render it lifeless......possible even matterless. Why, in experiment after experiment, does it appear that the mind is intimately connected to the fundamental workings of the universe at a subatomic level.....that the observer and the observed are not only connected causally but also experientially. Though it appears to be disconnected at a macroscale, this is an illusion, but it is one which is real and has measurable effects and consequences. What causes that apparent disconnection??. Why is the force of gravity so precisely balanced in its strength when compared to the other fundamental forces of nature such that if that balance was different by 1 part in 100 trillion, we wouldn't be here to talk about this. Why is a proton exactly 1836 times heavier than an electron. It could just as easily been 200 or 2000 times an electron's weight. Why can a simple mathematical equation (a fractal) generate all the repeatable patterns that we see in nature (snowflakes for example). How come we're even here to talk about this.....the Big Bang predicates that equal amounts of matter and antimatter should be produced on the breaking of the symmetry of the false vacuum that preceded Inflation (from the energy that was present in spacetime). There appears to have been 1,000,001 particles of matter for every 1,000,000 antimatter.
I could go on here, but I won't. Too much rambling as it is. However in my mind and experience, things are just a wee bit too contrived and convenient to be the result of a completely random and thoughtless act. As for paranormal forces (supernatural if you will), they don't exist. All forces, no matter what their origin, are a part of the order of things. It's only our (very) limited understanding of them which causes us to lable them as being "paranormal", "supernatural" etc. Even God is a part of the order of things.....we just don't see that because our "vision" is limited.
| QUOTE |
| The intelligence behind it all can be seen, if you know where to look and recognise it as such. |
And I can equaly state that people who ascribe inteligence to such a natural system are guilty of projection and wishful thinking. I look and I see beauty, but no inteligence..... and I've looked pretty darn hard.
Its your opinion, fine, but don't try to make it a statement of fact because it most certainly isn't.
You say that the chances of it all working are remote.... I see that it works that way because its the only way it can work. Space in a bloody big place, the number of chances for things to develop toward life (IMO a natural drive of the basic, un-inteligent laws of the universe) on one planet or another are too many to count. Even if it is only possible in a fraction of one percent, how many millions upon millions of stars are there for that to be applied to? We only think this star is remerkable because its the one we evolved at, it could have just as easily been any number of other stars and it would have made little diffrence. If we had evolved orbiting a diffrent star we would have no doubt thought that equaly as remarkable and some would claim it so remarkable that it 'prooved' inteligent thought' behind the force of the universe.... they would be just as wrong as to what constitutes 'proof'
| QUOTE |
| The laws which govern the physical structure of the Universe at both quantum and higher levels are too contrived and elegant to be something like random fluctuations made by an unthinking force or energy. The matter and energy which create this Universe are so precisely balanced and finely tuned as to its characteristics that it implies a consciousness, sentience is there. We may never be able to fathom or understand what that is, but it is there. |
In what respect is this physical structure "too contrived"? One thing I've noticed with randomness is that the more random a system is, the more variables and the more 'ingredients' if you will, actually increase the odds of a specific result.
I would assume then that there is a specific point where randomness reaches a point of complexity that pattern actually forms randomly.
As far as earth or any life bearing planet is concerned these are as a result of this chaos produced pattern. Thats why we look for planets that revovle around Suns, it would be a logical conclusion in my opinion that these Sun orbiting planets have been rendered so by this chaos induced pattern and is really not subject to any theological interpretation but seems more like the environment that our theology exists in......in my opinion.
"Sasselov's team is not alone. Since 1995, teams of astronomers across the country have detected about 100 large planets zipping around stars in far-distant solar systems. The discoveries are the result of new, indirect methods that sense planets by carefully observing their stars." http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/Dai...nets030224.html
Wow, that was an incredible explanation Ozmeister. Wow!!
That pretty much sums up alot of what I believe also. Incredible.
Fenris, and Chauncy. The possibilites of a life sustaining planet in a universe so large as ours, are intriguing. In fact I believe, ther is life outside our planet.
But the fact still remains, and its not about what are the chances of a life sustaining planet. Its more about what are the chances, of matter/energy that make everything up even existing. This precludes, whether there are possibilities of life sustaing planets in our universe or not. And I must agree with Ozmeister on this, the more you study this, and the more you look into it, the more contrived it seems.
That pretty much sums up alot of what I believe also. Incredible.
Fenris, and Chauncy. The possibilites of a life sustaining planet in a universe so large as ours, are intriguing. In fact I believe, ther is life outside our planet.
But the fact still remains, and its not about what are the chances of a life sustaining planet. Its more about what are the chances, of matter/energy that make everything up even existing. This precludes, whether there are possibilities of life sustaing planets in our universe or not. And I must agree with Ozmeister on this, the more you study this, and the more you look into it, the more contrived it seems.
I see nothing contrived about it... but having diffrent opinions on the matter is fine The world would be a boring place if we where all the same.
People once thought that eclipses where proof of an angry god.... but we now see the very rational, non-intelegent reasons for it... Life evolved as it did because thats the way it can and nature tends toward creating life.... no thought, just the effect it has.
And yes, I believe that given the magnitude of the universe it is inconsevable to me that there wouldn't be life on other planets. In fact it's highly unlikely that we evolved first (Some race has to be, but its a one chance in billions that its us). However I don't believe we have been visited by them..... You travel hundreds of light years and discover alien life on a distant planet.... So you scare a few yokles and fly off again?!?!?!? I don't think so.
The world would be a boring place if we where all the same.People once thought that eclipses where proof of an angry god.... but we now see the very rational, non-intelegent reasons for it... Life evolved as it did because thats the way it can and nature tends toward creating life.... no thought, just the effect it has.
And yes, I believe that given the magnitude of the universe it is inconsevable to me that there wouldn't be life on other planets. In fact it's highly unlikely that we evolved first (Some race has to be, but its a one chance in billions that its us). However I don't believe we have been visited by them..... You travel hundreds of light years and discover alien life on a distant planet.... So you scare a few yokles and fly off again?!?!?!? I don't think so.
| QUOTE |
| But the fact still remains, and its not about what are the chances of a life sustaining planet. Its more about what are the chances, of matter/energy that make everything up even existing. This precludes, whether there are possibilities of life sustaing planets in our universe or not. |
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the matter/energy even existing. I mean we are here right. This fact and this fact alone make it entirely probable of life elsewhere as far as I'm concerned.
Now if you mean that life was created here and that was the end of this life rendering energy, then I would have to say that energy cannott be destroied so it must be somewhere.....it would seem also that since life is still created here on earth then this energy must still be active.
I may be misunderstanding what you mean though.
I rather like the direction this thread is headed in now so I'd rather not shift the focus away to some other subject..
I tend to agree with Ozmeister and Venomshocker. Even zero speculation publications like Smithsonian are running articles on how the Universe seems to have a sentient purpose to the way it works.
While I agree with Chauncy to some extent in the fact that randomness will produce complex laws and patterns given time, randomness cannot sustain that pattern. If it were true randomness the patterns would constantly change and the laws of physics could re-invent themselves over time. As it is, even though things change they always work within the patterns that already exist. There really is nothing new under the sun. Science makes new discoveries all the time about the nature of the Universe and yet these discoveries only seem to add to our knowledge without changing the basis of existence itself..
While I don't think whatever the force we call "God" has an intelligence the way we percieve it.It certainly seems to me that there is indeed a "blueprint" of sorts behind it all...
I tend to agree with Ozmeister and Venomshocker. Even zero speculation publications like Smithsonian are running articles on how the Universe seems to have a sentient purpose to the way it works.
While I agree with Chauncy to some extent in the fact that randomness will produce complex laws and patterns given time, randomness cannot sustain that pattern. If it were true randomness the patterns would constantly change and the laws of physics could re-invent themselves over time. As it is, even though things change they always work within the patterns that already exist. There really is nothing new under the sun. Science makes new discoveries all the time about the nature of the Universe and yet these discoveries only seem to add to our knowledge without changing the basis of existence itself..
While I don't think whatever the force we call "God" has an intelligence the way we percieve it.It certainly seems to me that there is indeed a "blueprint" of sorts behind it all...
| QUOTE |
| randomness cannot sustain that pattern |
I feel that there is no need to sustain the pattern once it comes about. Through all the random chaos a pattern is produced, say DNA, now once that DNA is produced as the pattern from chaos, it will continue on it's own.
If it does continue or not, is totally random after the pattern is created. So if it fails to continue then another pattern, theoretically, could be produced as a result of chaos and any other variables left from the previous pattern.
| QUOTE |
| If it were true randomness the patterns would constantly change and the laws of physics could re-invent themselves over time. |
There is I believe a basic formula that our universe obides, these patterns that bring life are a result of this formula. I see the product of this formula being the chaos or randomness and the patterns being a product of the product.
The basic formula I see as unchanging.
That confuses me a bit, would you care to elaborate? It seems we both believe the Universe follows a basic pattern and yet from there we've veered off in opposite directions.
You seem to take the stance that the Universe developed it's pattern randomly and yet the pattern it set abides in perpetuity. It seems like a paradox, although I may have misunderstood you..
It just seems to me that if things really were random we'd see more examples of that in nature itself, and yet almost everything can be charted, graphed and categorized to the point where almost nothing seems like coincidence, although that may well just be human nature at work..
You seem to take the stance that the Universe developed it's pattern randomly and yet the pattern it set abides in perpetuity. It seems like a paradox, although I may have misunderstood you..
It just seems to me that if things really were random we'd see more examples of that in nature itself, and yet almost everything can be charted, graphed and categorized to the point where almost nothing seems like coincidence, although that may well just be human nature at work..
[QUOTE]You seem to take the stance that the Universe developed it's pattern randomly and yet the pattern it set abides in perpetuity. It seems like a paradox, although I may have misunderstood you.. [QUOTE]
We do actually see a lot of pattern as a result of chaos, to elaborate further on my last post (after re-reading I realized its vagueness) the Earth and its atmosphere are a pattern that emerged from chaos. Within the atmosphere of the earth is sparked another chaotic system, thats why weather and earthquake and psychic forcasting is so difficult, yet within this system we have a lot of patterns emerging as a result.
Like ice falling through the atmosphere and being rendered snowflakes, everyone a pattern from chaos but random patterns, where as no two are the same.
Now this chaotic system within the earths atmosphere employs infinite variables all colliding together to produce the pattern of the snowflakes. Its not intentional or designed it is as a result of....
Now there is a perpetual regeneration here where new random variables are produced as a result of chaos, we can view these as either patterns or more chaos......example: Humans are a result of chaos, humans create pollution, pollution affects the Earths atmosphere, so there are new variables for earths atmosphere as a result of the random patterns created from the Earths original chaos...
I see the universe expanding as a result of more variables being created as a result of random patterns creating more and more random patterns. The possiblities are endless as with the universe.
Who knows what chaotic variables were around a hundred trillion years ago....we live in the variables that exist today. What we see and witness is only the variables acting in the basic or fundamental environment in which they spawned.
I guess I would say that the universe is self sustaining whether we are here or not.
We do actually see a lot of pattern as a result of chaos, to elaborate further on my last post (after re-reading I realized its vagueness) the Earth and its atmosphere are a pattern that emerged from chaos. Within the atmosphere of the earth is sparked another chaotic system, thats why weather and earthquake and psychic forcasting is so difficult, yet within this system we have a lot of patterns emerging as a result.
Like ice falling through the atmosphere and being rendered snowflakes, everyone a pattern from chaos but random patterns, where as no two are the same.
Now this chaotic system within the earths atmosphere employs infinite variables all colliding together to produce the pattern of the snowflakes. Its not intentional or designed it is as a result of....
Now there is a perpetual regeneration here where new random variables are produced as a result of chaos, we can view these as either patterns or more chaos......example: Humans are a result of chaos, humans create pollution, pollution affects the Earths atmosphere, so there are new variables for earths atmosphere as a result of the random patterns created from the Earths original chaos...
I see the universe expanding as a result of more variables being created as a result of random patterns creating more and more random patterns. The possiblities are endless as with the universe.
Who knows what chaotic variables were around a hundred trillion years ago....we live in the variables that exist today. What we see and witness is only the variables acting in the basic or fundamental environment in which they spawned.
I guess I would say that the universe is self sustaining whether we are here or not.
What I meant by contrived is the exact nature of the physical characteristics and the mathematical functions which the laws are based upon. Given the nature of the quantum, those natural laws (including gravity) could've had any value at all. Given that the Universe is as finely balanced as it is, there has to be a reason for that. Like I previously mentioned, some factor appears to be allowing the Universe to behave the way it does, because the probability of it turning out otherwise is far greater than it having turned out the way it did. Many other universes wouldn't be like ours simply because of the probabilities they can exhibit.
Even in chaos, there now appears to be an implicate order. If everything was truly random, especially when at a quantum level, nothing would exist but a pure field of energy. Nothing would form because there would be no base upon which it could form.....no variations in that energy field. It would be 100% isotropic, completely smooth and without change.
Even in chaos, there now appears to be an implicate order. If everything was truly random, especially when at a quantum level, nothing would exist but a pure field of energy. Nothing would form because there would be no base upon which it could form.....no variations in that energy field. It would be 100% isotropic, completely smooth and without change.
| QUOTE |
| And I can equaly state that people who ascribe inteligence to such a natural system are guilty of projection and wishful thinking. I look and I see beauty, but no inteligence..... and I've looked pretty darn hard. Its your opinion, fine, but don't try to make it a statement of fact because it most certainly isn't. |
BTW Fenris, it's not just an opinion of mine.....it's the considered reasoning of a great many scientists as well....especially those dealing in cosmology, quantum physics etc. So far as the intelligence goes, projection and wishful thinking are entirely a function of the understanding of what is there and what the understanding (definition) of that intelligence might be. As I said before, you have to really look at this with a fresh mind. Intelligence, God, Higher Mind....whatever you want to call it, is not some anthropomorphic entity sitting on a chair in amongst the clouds, or even a mind as we would define it. We can only describe what it might be using the language that we have, and that makes understanding it difficult to start because I feel that language as we know it can't even begin to touch this. The only way to describe it is to call it an intelligence. It appears to be thought like in nature, but what it truly is I doubt we will be able to quantify scientifically.
Thank you Mr. Chauncy that's much more clear and I can see how you arrived at your conclusion. I'm going to have to stick to my guns also though. I had to do some lengthy research on Abiogenesis for my How we started debate on the debates board(So it really bugged me when the competition backed out) and one of the things I found the most fascinating is that even randomness has rules to follow..
Although it may be random that electricity would occur in just the right amount of charge and in just the right environment to stimulate the first life to change; the reactions that happened during that change were governed by the laws of chemistry and were anything but random. If anything chaos and order seem to work hand and hand with each other. To me this suggests an even greater order that we can barely begin to comprehend..
All that said my special areas of knowledge are history and zoology. I'm only beginning to get interested in physics and such lately, so there may be concepts that I haven't yet grasped that will change my mind sometime in the future..
My favorite part about learning things is that you're never really "done."
Although it may be random that electricity would occur in just the right amount of charge and in just the right environment to stimulate the first life to change; the reactions that happened during that change were governed by the laws of chemistry and were anything but random. If anything chaos and order seem to work hand and hand with each other. To me this suggests an even greater order that we can barely begin to comprehend..
All that said my special areas of knowledge are history and zoology. I'm only beginning to get interested in physics and such lately, so there may be concepts that I haven't yet grasped that will change my mind sometime in the future..
My favorite part about learning things is that you're never really "done."
Maybe the word 'contingent' would better explain my belief as well....where as things are possible to happen but not certain to happen.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.