Darkwind, What exactly is a "fuffy bunny"? Should I add this to the list of derogatory comments or what? Even if it was, I wish no ill will, but courtesy is always appreciated.

"Shake" Thanks Darkwind. I've unfortunately come to expect the worst given the vehemence with which some disagree with my beliefs. Not everyone will agree, but everyone can, and should be decent to one another.

Chauncy, it looks like we're not going to agree any time soon, but so be it. If the evidence that you speak of was so strong would Christianity be as wide spread as you yourself admit? A long time ago, we, as a species believed that the Earth was flat, indeed to this day, a very few still do, but discoveries, genuine scientific discoveries for which there is no reasonable doubt have proven to the masses that the world is not flat. Do you see my point? If, as you say this evidence is to be found throughout our history, then the only way that it would'nt be accepted by the masses is if it were questionable. Also, when it comes to advocating ignorence is'nt that exactly what you're doing when you reject the Bible as blindly as you say that I follow it? And to accuse me of selling humans short simply by pointing out that our creator is more powerful than us, while your own scientific belief system has us as nothing more than glorified animals, who only became sentient by chance is tad bit hypocritical do'nt you think? As far as putting "the onus of derogatory disputation" at your door (Nice phrasing by the way) I believe that you do this all too well on your own without any help from me, and I must add that you do'nt know what I think, whethor it be thinking that something will become true once it's in print or anything else for that matter. If, as you say, your way is to allow future discoveries to dictate fact from fiction, then how can you discount all of the past discoveries, as well as those of the present and the future that support the truthfullness of the Bible? Are you being honest with yourself? I know that it's tempting to pick one way and just stick with it regardless of outside influences like facts that do'nt line up with what you already believe, but we owe it to ourselves to do so. And lest you accuse me of being guilty of this as well, let me just say that whether you believe it or not, if you, or anyone else, could prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bible is'nt true, or that Christianity was a false religion, then I'd change in a heartbeat. It would be easier anyway. Now you can call this a lack of faith(As you suggested before,none too subtly)if you want, I call it being intellectally honest, and not deceiving myself intentionally. Is the "pondering" that you speak of all that you would miss if you became a Christian? We ponder all the time. We do'nt claim to have all of the answers, we just know who does and we put our faith in him. Blind faith is no more required by my beliefs than yours. The true question would be, "Is one of us intentionally fooling ourselves?" As I said before, if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again, but..when you speak with complete certainty that you're correct and that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong then how can someone escape the fact that it is you who are being close minded? As far as absolutely "proving" the existence of God, or conversely dis-proving his existence, I think that we both know that we're at a stalemate there. An individual just has to gather as much evidence as they can for themselves, and then reach a well thought out conclusion. I too once stubbornly refused to accept God and he loved me enough to keep me around until I actually looked into the matter rather than just blindly dismissing it, which is oh so easy to do. I do hope that this message is received with the same love with which it is sent. I'm not trying to belittle anyone, or hurt anyones feelings. I simply believe that the Bible is true.

Okay Chauncy, you asked for it, so I hope you're at least ready to do some research as far as the Bible is concerned. I present it in good will knowing full well that you yourself had, and continue to have, access to much of this information, as you've complained on another thread about not being able to get past all of the Christian evidence sites on the net. I'm also aware that you'll either dismiss this evidence in its entirety or simply reply in a "Yes but..." fashion that the Bible has'nt been proven Completly true; so, in the spirit of forthrightnous let me just say flat out that no, the Bible has not been, and probably cannot be totally proven true until we get to find out personally on the other side. That is what faith is all about, the hope for things unseen. Faith can be increased although, and a well reasoned faith is by no means discouraged in the scriptures. As a matter of fact they say that a Christian should be ready to give non-believers an explanation for the hope that is within them. So get ready. This is by no means an exhaustive list of evidences, just a few to get you started.

1)The city of Jericho which was excavated in the 20th century. Archaeologists found not only confirmation that its destruction occured at the exact time that the Bible indicates that it did; namely in the spring just before the harvest(Joshua 2:6, 3:15, not to mention that Israel celebrated the Passover just before the conquest of Jericho, Joshua 5:10)but that it had not been a long siege, as large quantities of grain were found. The Bible informs us that the city was taken within seven days (Joshua 6:15)which did not allow its inhabitants time to flee before its destruction. In addition, carbon 14 tests on the organic material place the destruction at about 1400 B.C, which agrees with the internal chronology of the Bible which would place its conquest at about 1406 B.C. The archaeologists also discovered that there were indeed houses built between the inner and outer walls of the city(Note the position of Rahab's house on the city wall, Joshua 2:15)


2)The Temptation Seal, found amidst ancient Babylonian tablets and presently in the British Museum depicts the Garden of Eden. In its center is a tree, with a man on the right, and a woman on the left plucking fruit while an erect serpent appears to be whispering behind her.


3)The Adam and Eve Seal depicts a naked man and woman walking as if utterly downcast and brokenhearted followed closely by a serpent. This seal was found in 1932 by E.A Speiser near the bottom of the Tepe Gawra mound 12 miles north of Nineveh. Speiser dated the seal at about 3500 B.C. and called it "strongly suggestive of the Adam and Eve story". It is presently at the University of Pennsylvania Museum in Philadelphia.


4)A stele (Or monument) discovered at the site of Ur in ancient Babylon depicts the various activities of Ur-Nammu, who was the King of Ur from 2044-2007 B.C. According to the stele, he began construction of a great tower. According to a clay tablet unearthed at the same site by George Smith of the British Museum, the erection of the tower offended the gods who "threw down what they had built. They scattered them abroad and made strange their speech" This is, of course quite similiar to the Tower of Babel account found in Genesis 11:1-9.


5)Archaeologists including the afforementioned E.A. Speiser, S.N. Kramer of the University of Pennsylvania, and Oxford cuneiformist Oliver Gurney have found evidence that the ancient Sumerians believed that there was a time when all mankind spoke the same language, and that at a paticular time, the God of Wisdom confounded their speech.


6)One of the many argaeological scholars who began his studies convinced that the Bible was legendary but later became very consevative in his approach to the Biblical narratives, was William F. Albright whose change of viewpoint was the result of many years of archaeological discoveries dis-confirming the hypothesis that the Bible was legend. For example, Genesis 14:5,6 refers to a number of cities by way of which the four Eastern Kings came against Sodom. These cities were so far east of the ordinary trade route that Albright once considered it evidence of the legendary character of Genesis 14; however, in 1929 he discovered in Hauran and along the eastern border of Gilead and Moab a series of tells (Artificial mounds formed by the accumulated debris of the buildings and walls of cities;the Hebrew spelling is tell, the Arabic spelling tel)of cities that flourished about 2000 B.C. demonstrating that it was a well settled area, and a trade route between Damascus, Edom, and Sinai.


7)The Biblical account of Sodom and Gomorrah has been corroborated by surface surveys undertaken on the east side of the Dead Sea, which has revealed a series of five ancient cities dating back to the Middle Bronze era. There is strong evidence that various layers of the earth were disrupted and hurled high in the air. Because much of this material was bituminous pitch, these five cities were covered with it. The layers of sedimentary rock at these sites were molded together by intense heat, as is evident on the top of nearby Jebel Usdum (Mount Sodom). Geologists have hypothesized that an oil basin beneath the Dead Sea ignited and erupted, causing a rain of fire and debris upon these cities.


8)A limestone plaque 14 by 13 inches from the Second Temple Period written in Hebrew script and discovered by E.L. Sukenik in 1931 in a Russian monastery on the Mount of Olives which says "Hither were brought the bones of Uzziah, King of Judah, not to opened!" Although Uzziah was a leper, someone apparantly did'nt follow this advice, for the remains of the King were not found. You can read more about Uzziah in 2 Chronicles Chapter 26.


9)The Dead Sea Scrolls which contain fragments of every book of the Old Testament (With the exception of Esther) are the oldest group of Old Testament manuscripts ever found. The Isaiah Scroll specifically, found relatively intact, is 1000 years older than any previously known copy of Isaiah.

And finally..., (For Now),


10)The historical accounts of Josephus, (37 A.D.-100 A.D) a Jewish historian taken prisoner by the Roman Empire in the great Jewish revolt of 66-70 A.D. He served three emporers, namely Vespasian, Titus, and Domitian. Josephus wrote of Jesus that he was "a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was (The) Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him are not extinct at this day".


I trust that this sampling of evidences is enough to show a reasonable individual that Christianity can be a well reasoned faith. I apologize for the extreme length of this post, but when a challenge is made for evidence and you know that there's an abundance of it, it takes a little space to get the point across.


Chauncy, I'm not going to respond to anything else in your previous post at this time, (As this has proven to be my longest post yet.) but I would ask you if you could elucidate us as to your beliefs on the origin of man if evolution is not something that you would subscribe to.

My thanks to all who've shown the intellectual fortitude and patience that it's taken to get this far, and I give you my word, I'll try to keep them shorter in the future. Just remember that the evidence is out there for all who care to look. Don't give up, it's worth it.


P.S. Thanks for the suggestion Chauncy, I hope that this post was easier to read.

Todd said:

I personally believe that there is too much poop in the world for their to be a god.

But everyone is entitled top believe whatever they want. Though it annoys me when people say that and then they have all these crappy stereotypes about smaller religions such as paganism. But as i said , you can believe whatever you want.


Blimey , my reply seems flippin short compared 2 every1 elses.

So is it written in the Book of Moe that the Big Bang=Explosive Diarrhea?

Moonbaby, I'm not sure if your short but not very sweet post was directed at myself or Chauncy, though it probably was meant for me considering where you seem to be coming from. If we're honest with ourselves, then don't we have to admit that any of us could be part of the fearfully ignorant masses who've been duped? I KNOW that that is a true statement.

aquatus 1 I'm sorry for not responding to the post that you quoted if it was directed towards me. I simply did'nt see it. My faith came from a wide variety of sources, primarilly research into the truthfullness of the Bible. You asked if there was something to this faith not involving a third party. This will be hard for others who do not have faith in God to accept, but I have had many personal "proofs" given me by God. Although these "proofs" were not sought in a challenging way, but with humility, they had the overall effect of increasing my faith. As a matter of fact when I was looking into the truthfullness of the Bible I was told that I should pray to the God that I was'nt sure that I believed in to help me find the answers that I sought.

The Bible says that "the Lord is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him". It also says "Seek and ye shall find". I found that not only were both of these statements true, but that there has'nt been any convincing evidence that the Bible was anything less than it's believed to be by those of faith in Gods omnipotence, simply his revealed word, and will for mankind.

god must be real, or some higher being that we draw our powers from. Or else where would we draw magic from? Even if we call it by a diffrent name almost everyone thinks there is a higher being

aquatus 1 At least we both know where it is that we currently stand, and where we put our faith, but in a "never say never" vain I would just caution against making lifelong proclamations. You put your faith in science exclusively because it makes the most sense to you, just as I put my faith in God exclusively because that makes the most sense to me. But just as I would not close the door to future discoveries that could, in theory, change my beliefs, I think that you should allow yourself room to change your own mind if something should occur that would alter your current opinion. If any of us "stick our feet in cement" so to speak on any of our beliefs, then we're in grave danger of becoming like those who insisted that the world was flat, that rocks did not fall from the sky, and that the Earth was the center of the universe. We paint ourselves into that very same corner if we insist, even against real evidence to the contrary that OUR WAY IS RIGHT, and EVERYONE ELSE MUST BE WRONG. That's all I'm saying, is don't close that door completely, especially since science is all about discoveries.

Not a problem. As soon as I get some hard evidence, I'll reconsider my opinion. ;-)

Honestly I dont give the sh** about wether or not theres a god anymore, with athiesm comes peace. that and I bow down and worship no one or no thing.

There's not one. God died. Now I rule all.

Darkwind, sorry that this one probably is'nt the best one out there but it's the best I could do on short notice( Not on your part, I've just got some other stuff going on)





http://sciencenews.org/articles/20030301/timeline.asp









That's The Adam and Eve Seal, I'll get back to you with The Temptation Seal..

http://www.hope.edu/bandstra/RTOT/CH1/CH1_1A2B.HTM

For Darkwind and anyone else that's interested. This is a link to the site where the previously mentioned Temptation Seal is to be found.

Take care

If you want to know if God is real, or if He is the
true God of the Bible, then please go to the Challenge
topic, where I challenge YOU to disproove whatever I say.
First I need one negative statment about God, then I will
begin the explaination.

That has been done thousands of times here, ending with neither side giving the other any credit, and it grows more and more offensive as time goes on. This thread has gone on for 12 pages (amazingly) and it should continue here until it is locked.

Well, first of all, NOOB here!!!! Well, second, I absolutely believe in God. Come on, when I look at everything around me (not buildings, natural settings), looking at the perfection of the Universe, I think: "This can't be a coincidence, there MUST be something behind this". And so I got to God.
I was also raised in a Catholic family, so I guess that's where it all began. But the real switch on the subject was in September of 2003, where I went on a school trip to Italy (celebrating its 20th aniversary, what a lucky dude I am) and saw the Pope. Believe me, seeing how weak he was and he was still standing there and speaking to the people in 5 different languages and... well, you know what he has done. There definitely was a force supporting him, there are forces that escape the material world. You just have to see him to realise that.
And science has helped on my faith, believe it or not, again seeing how it all fits in God's love plan. Science is NOT opposed to faith, because science answers the "how" on things, while faith explains the "who". Oh!, and I was forgetting everything about exorcisms and Satan.

Well, guess there's only one thing I have left to say.... I LOVE YOU GOD, THANKS FOR EVERYTHING

Sorry for my bad English though

I have tons to say, and i think it can all be said in one simple sentence. I don't believe in god, i believe in myself.

Yay for thread necromancy.

I believe in gods because I have heard the music of John Coltrane and the music of Beethoven. There is absolutely no way that the sounds created by those individuals came solely from a human by himself. The more I learn about music, the I feel that way. I have long felt that the creator is within all of us, and works through all of us in different ways and degrees.

I know someone's going to come and say what I'm talking about is absurdly subjective, and that divine inspiration such as I'm suggesting is completely groundless and illogical or something to that effect. But I challenge any human person to really focus on and study the works of either of those musicians and then come tell me that you can still find nothing in their work that seems beyond human comprehension. I speak especially of the final (avantgarde) periods of both.

These two composers changed the way I hear music, and changed the way I experience my life. There are other reasons why I believe in gods. But none are as important for me as this.

Rise from the dead thread~

You make a good point. Music can be a very religious experience, any kind of music, especially trance or eurodance, at least for me. Though emo music as well as older The Cure and Depeche Mode can also put me in that zone.

ok well I'm pagan, so I believe in more then one god/desses, but I also accept the fact that I may be wrong, with all the religions out there everyone has a 0.02% chance of being right, this is including atheists. the reason I don't believe in God, because of the inaccuracy's in the bible, I believe the bible tells good stories, and has some good typical morals, but after going to Sunday school and even a church camp one summer, I just found it to be non-sense(no offense just my opinion) But me having a belief doesn't mean I don't accept some scientific facts, so I guess I'm religious but have a very open mind to new ideas.