The following is an excpert from the book Conversations With God - Book 2.
This is what God has to say about Religon:
Because it is not good for you. Understand that in order for organized religion to succeed, it has to make people believe they need it. In order for people to put
faith in something else, they must first lose faith in themselves. So the first task of organized religion is to make you lose faith in yourself. The second task is to make you see that it has the answers you do not. And the third and most important task is to make you accept its answers without question.
If you question, you start to think! If you think, you start to go back to that Source Within. Religion can't have you do that, because you're liable to come up with an answer different from what it has contrived. So religion must make you doubt your Self; must make you doubt your own ability to think straight.
The problem for religion is that very often this backfires-for if you cannot accept without doubt your own thoughts, how can you not doubt the new ideas
about God which religion has given you?
Pretty soon, you even doubt My existence-which, ironically, you never doubted before. When you were living by your intuitive knowing, you may not have had Me all figured out, but you definitely knew I was there! It is religion which has created agnostics.
Any clear thinker who looks at what religion has done must assume religion has no God! For it is religion which has filled the hearts of men with fear of God,
where once man loved That Which Is in all its splendor . It is religion which has ordered men to bow down before God, where once man rose up in joyful out-
reach. It is religion which has burdened man with worries about God's wrath, where once man sought God to lighten his burden! It is religion which told man to be ashamed of his body and its most natural functions, where once man celebrated those functions as the greatest gifts of life! It is religion which taught you that you must have an intermediary in order to reach God, where once you
thought yourself to be reaching God by the simple living of your life in goodness and in truth. And it is religion which commanded humans to adore God, where once humans adored God because it was impossible not to!
Everywhere religion has gone it has created dis-unity which is the opposite of God.
Religion has separated man from God, man from man, man from woman-some religions actually telling man that he is above woman, even as it claims God is
above man-thus setting the stage for the greatest travesties ever foisted upon half the human race. I tell you this: God is not above man, and man is not above woman-that is not the "natural order of things"-but it is the way everyone who had power (namely, men) wished it was when they formed their male-worship religions, systematically editing out half the material from their final version of the "holy scriptures" and twisting the rest to fit the mold of their male model of the world.
It is religion which insists to this very day that women are somehow less, somehow second-class spiritual citizens, somehow not "suited" to teach the Word of God, preach the Word of God, or minister to the people. Like children, you are still arguing over which gender is ordained by Me to be My priests! I tell you this:
You are all priests. Every single one of you. There is no one person or class of people more "suited" to do My work than any other. But so many of your men are just like your nations. Power hungry .They do not like to share power, merely
exercise it. And they have constructed the same kind of God. A power hungry God. A God who does not like to share power but merely exercise it. Yet I tell you this: God's greatest gift is the sharing of God's power.
I would have you be like Me.
Full Version: Religon
Too bad Mr. Walsch wasn't around when the bible was being put together. I would have liked that part.
Then again, it would have been left out anyway.
Then again, it would have been left out anyway.
| QUOTE (aquatus1 @ Jul 12 2004, 04:16 PM) |
| Then again, it would have been left out anyway. |
It is pretty tough to control people that don't fear you...
oh goody gooddy goody
TNO, Obviously you are drunk. Do not copy a whole post when there are so few replies. Your comment will still have the same drunken value.
TNO, Obviously you are drunk. Do not copy a whole post when there are so few replies. Your comment will still have the same drunken value.
I really liked reading this piece. I hate how single-minded organised religions have become. That's why I don't go to services often. . . . or ever, really. It's why I didn't fit in in Catholic school. I'm too much of a free-thinker.
| QUOTE |
| It is not good for you. Understand that in order for organized religion to succeed, it has to make people believe they need it. In order for people to put faith in something else, they must first lose faith in themselves. So the first task of organized religion is to make you lose faith in yourself. The second task is to make you see that it has the answers you do not. And the third and most important task is to make you accept its answers without question. |
That is one of the most true statements I have ever heard. What I don't understand is why and how organized religion came about in the first place.
That was beautifully written. I need to check out these books. 
Interesting. We ultimately are gods, as told by "God"? Then all is definitely relative. Relativity leads to ambiguity when not travelling near the speed of light. Ambiguity leads to a lack of social and moral cohesion. After all the ivory towers have fallen due to lack of mortar, all is left is dust. Anarchy rules. Any path will do so long as you take the journey.
How can this be? Soooo little variation in the fundemental fabric of the universe and the universe is chaos and anarchy. How can something work philisophically in the world or people and relations, and go whack in the physical world?
How can this be? Soooo little variation in the fundemental fabric of the universe and the universe is chaos and anarchy. How can something work philisophically in the world or people and relations, and go whack in the physical world?
Venomshocker,
Those 3 books changed my life a few years ago. They're wonderful! Thanks for taking the time to post what he said again, it was cool reading that part again
Those 3 books changed my life a few years ago. They're wonderful! Thanks for taking the time to post what he said again, it was cool reading that part again
Venomshocker, Interesting post. I will have to check these books out and investigate a little further.
Simple point. Man created religion. Religion will be the destruction of man.
SC
Simple point. Man created religion. Religion will be the destruction of man.
SC
I've only read half of the second book, and so far I have disagreed with nothing that was said. That kind of a god is one that I wouldn't mind having "run" everything. I'd like to sit down with her/him/it/whatever, have a couple drinks, smoke a bowl and just bs about life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. I'm telling you, if this guy wasn't really talking to God, then he is very wise, has a good way of looking at things and puts them in a manner anyone could understand. It's been impossible, so far, for me to argue with anything that was written. 
God says wee doggy!!!
That sounds like a Pagan God, I got to put those books to be next on my reading list. Thanks for the insight.
| QUOTE (Venomshocker @ Jul 12 2004, 10:13 PM) |
| The following is an excpert from the book Conversations With God - Book 2. This is what God has to say about Religon: ... In order for people to put faith in something else, they must first lose faith in themselves... ... And the third and most important task is to make you accept its answers without question... |
Hmm.. I guess I have to disagree to most mailings here. First of all, the kind of a religion, that this points to, has to be pretty fundamentalist, I guess it's targeted at catholic church. Church is not a religion, people, who call themselves priests, don't define it either. Priests are nothing but employees hired by church.
Since people aren't as easily brain-washed as many would like to think, religion which can't take the pressure of people questioning it, won's stand for long.
"either-or" thinking just simply doesn't apply here.
I don't understand also why it's necessary to lose the faith in your self? Is the world really so individualistic and people so uncertain about them selves, that looking anywhere else than in your own belly-button will make you lose the sense of personality? Over all I'd like to think, that more than answers, religions give guidelines. It's always ones own choice to follow them or not. Questioning and re-evaluating is not only necessary, but built in human nature.
I choose to keep as well my religion, as the freedom of questioning it.
Mrs Asterix
I don't find the author of this book to be profound in any sense. Yeah, on one level I don't agree with his ideas because I'm a Christian. That's to be expected.
But the thing is that his thinking is flawed on so many levels that one doesn't have to be a Christian to see through this nonsense. First, I love how people will say in one breath, "You must be free from the shackles of religion because religion is all about power-mongering and attempts to dominate you!" And then in the next breath they say, "I know the REAL DEAL behind it all!" Well, how do we know that this guy knows what's up? It's a question of epistemology. Using Christianity as an example of religion (probably the main one he's railing against), at least the contributors to the biblical literature claimed to be getting their ideas from God, and they weren't operating on their own steam (whether you agree with them or not). If this guy is warning us of dangers of religion, may we all be reminded of how some folks go on a mountian somewhere by themselves and come up with some ideas about god(s), establish a dogma (which just means "teaching", by the by), persuade people to follow them, and then make the people submit to them in every way. He speaks against "organized religion" (as is the fashion currently), but at least organization with accountability can ensure that some would-be Moses coming down from a mystical high won't establish himself as the "god" of some oppressive fringe group.
Also, this guy is against the organized aspect of religion because many folks are all about navel-gazing when it comes to religion/spirituality right now. In fact, that's one of the main differences between what's termed "religion" and what's called "spirituality" right now: Religion involves organization and structure of some sort. Spirituality need not involve either--not because of some utopian freedom, but because the popular spirituality of our time is self-centered and inward. Basically, folks want to do exactly what they want to do however they'd like to do it, and don't want anyone to tell them anything about it. This is not higher thought or reasoning, and it is not spiritual enlightenment.
Lastly, this guy takes the coward's way out by doing the typical "Religion has only led to bloodshed/persecution/fanaticism/blah, blah, blah... I'm fine with pointing out the destruction that religious people (even from my own religion) have brought about--that's just historically responsible. But we bear EQUAL responsibility in documenting the great things that--yes--ORGANIZED religion has brought about. Many adherents of organized religions have done great things for the sake of humanity, and they couldn't have accomplished them without the organized aspect of their religions. This foolishness of reducing religions like Christianity, Islam, and Judaism to the instances in history when misguided and perverted people have twisted them for destructive ends must end.
I don't really agree with this anti-organized relligion statement. I think the author failed to recognize the nature of religions, or in fact, the nature of human society. In an utopian world, we can have every single individual to have their own religion. However it is not the case in our world.
People who are not organized are going to be crushed by those who are. Just take a look at what happened with the small indigenous religions all over the world. The important thing is to keep the major religions to be responsible with their own actions.
As far as religious leaders are concerned, yes, we do need them. Not every single one of us has the time to study the entire bible. The problem is that a lot of priests today use their position to enrich themselves. It is very important for religious leaders to realize their role in the society, to form the foundation of morality of the people. Only with that, a healthy society can be found.
People who are not organized are going to be crushed by those who are. Just take a look at what happened with the small indigenous religions all over the world. The important thing is to keep the major religions to be responsible with their own actions.
As far as religious leaders are concerned, yes, we do need them. Not every single one of us has the time to study the entire bible. The problem is that a lot of priests today use their position to enrich themselves. It is very important for religious leaders to realize their role in the society, to form the foundation of morality of the people. Only with that, a healthy society can be found.
And what infact is the nature of religions according to you?
| QUOTE |
| And what infact is the nature of religions according to you? |
I'm afraid you will have to do your own search in order to understand that
No no, I want to know what it is according to you. You cant argue that in the past, the nature of religion was to recruite followers and controle them, and attack threats to it.
well.. yeah.. you're going into it... but why shouold we recruit followers and control them? And why should we attack the threats? what's the reason behind it? Why is the need to establish an organized religion?
Why recruit followers? To make the church stronger. Same reason the army recruits soldiers. Why should they attack threats? I dont necessairily mean physical threats, but also ideological threats, like oppressing and/or killing people with different ideologies than the church, because the church interprets for their "god" and claims to know what is right and what is wrong. Why was there a need to establish an organized religion? I guess none of us really know what started organized religion, but I'm willing to bet that it started with the idea of getting power, either thats what caused it, or thats what it became soon after it being created.
You're pretty much correct. But why do we want power? Can you now answer what the nature of religion is?
In the past, people wanted power so they could have better lives and for the exileration of it.
God says be good little boys and girls. 
| QUOTE |
| Using Christianity as an example of religion (probably the main one he's railing against), at least the contributors to the biblical literature claimed to be getting their ideas from God, and they weren't operating on their own steam (whether you agree with them or not). |
Actually the author of the book is not railing against christianity, in particular. Just against institutionalized, ritualized,/organized religon. Where the focus on God has long been perverted and twisted to meet the needs and wants of some powerful men.
If you would read the book Conversations with God you would be wise to take the small excerpt Ive quoted in Context with the rest of the book. And I will tell you ahead of the time the book speaks highly of "spiritual leaders" such as Jesus and Buddha.
And yes, the author does claim to be God-inspired, and no hes not gathering a cult of followers behind him, instead IF you would read the book hes trying to inspire people to learn more about themselves and God, by entering a relationship with him FREE of the ideologies and constraints put down by alot of organized religons.
I see where you're getting at Venomshocker. Let me put down my conclusion: So, according to the author, it's ok to believe in god, but thru finding the individual relationship, not thru organized religion.
What do you yourself think? What about the basic human need for group, belonging into something? In the older times when communities were tighter, families bigger, you always belonged into something. Nowdays the whole meaning of the family has changed, we no longer even know as much as our neighbours first name, not even mentioning the sense of togetherness. For many, organizations are taking this place, and when mixing religion into this it means relying on church and the congregation.
Fundamentalist approach may deprive the individual search of god, true, but in most cases it's not like that.
The crimes of the different churches in the past are undeniable, organised religions have used peoples beliefs, and driven them into massacres and wars. We should never forget these. To be able to learn from the past, you have to know it. This is not the case nowdays, and the blame was never on the religion, but on the people that used it to gain power. For most following an organised religion is about something else, and quite often based on individual search.
What do you yourself think? What about the basic human need for group, belonging into something? In the older times when communities were tighter, families bigger, you always belonged into something. Nowdays the whole meaning of the family has changed, we no longer even know as much as our neighbours first name, not even mentioning the sense of togetherness. For many, organizations are taking this place, and when mixing religion into this it means relying on church and the congregation.
Fundamentalist approach may deprive the individual search of god, true, but in most cases it's not like that.
The crimes of the different churches in the past are undeniable, organised religions have used peoples beliefs, and driven them into massacres and wars. We should never forget these. To be able to learn from the past, you have to know it. This is not the case nowdays, and the blame was never on the religion, but on the people that used it to gain power. For most following an organised religion is about something else, and quite often based on individual search.
I don't and obviously can't speak for all religion with 'God' but for christianity Jesus mentioned somewhere (the verse is there 
) that whenever two or three of the believers gather together in His name He will be among them. That's the basic ideology of the 'church'. Christianity is like the cross, the vertical element being relationship between God & man and the horizontal one for fellowship between bros and sis. Will corporate crap and corruption come up in running the organization as it gets bigger? Of course, also forseen by Jesus in his speech regarding the bad servants that will beat up others he's put in charged with. Does the corruption makes the act of gathering of believers between the same faith meaningless? That's up to everone's understanding and choice.
) that whenever two or three of the believers gather together in His name He will be among them. That's the basic ideology of the 'church'. Christianity is like the cross, the vertical element being relationship between God & man and the horizontal one for fellowship between bros and sis. Will corporate crap and corruption come up in running the organization as it gets bigger? Of course, also forseen by Jesus in his speech regarding the bad servants that will beat up others he's put in charged with. Does the corruption makes the act of gathering of believers between the same faith meaningless? That's up to everone's understanding and choice.
| QUOTE |
| In the past, people wanted power so they could have better lives and for the exileration of it. |
In general people wants power. Is it the reason for creating religion? it is obvious that it is one of the reason for religions to be what it is. But it is not the whole story.
Islam has the best preserved account on its creation. The Quran, as they believed, is written by Muhammad's servant as dictated by Muhammad himself when he was in trance.
A lot of religions began with a contact with the spirit world, or God, theophany, in this altered consciousness state. A well known example is the dream quest among Native Americans, where youths are expected to fast and stay in the forest until they recieve a revelation on what they are supposed to do in life. In the Shamanism, this experience is limited to the Shamans, and they will asume the role of religious leaders. Major religions tend to revolve around the experience of one individual. The science behind this altered consciousness state is still an unexplored teritory.
After the revelation, the next problem is to gain followers. This is not just about power. While Muhammad became a powerful man, Jesus and Buddha were not. In fact Buddha and Paul lost their power, and most shamans live in much worse condition than their followers. The same is true for most Catholic priests and Buddhist monks today.
In the bible Jesus recruited the apostles simply by calling them. It doesn't make too much sense isn't it? Well, Buddha's first followers are his "partners" in his quest for enlightenment. However, in both cases, they attracted the crowds by their teachings. Even in the muhammad's case, the power came later. So what do you think makes people want to join religions?
| QUOTE (Q-La @ Jul 18 2004, 10:18 AM) |
| Jesus mentioned somewhere (the verse is there ) that whenever two or three of the believers gather together in His name He will be among them. |
It is interesting that Jesus said "two or three", and not just "one". Relligions have a social dimension.
| QUOTE |
| That's the basic ideology of the 'church'. Christianity is like the cross, the vertical element being relationship between God & man and the horizontal one for fellowship between bros and sis. |
Just to make things clear. We got the ideology first (when Jesus teached about the most important commandements), and then, we got the cross (when the Romans and the religious leaders of the time were pissed off wtih Jesus). The connection between the two were invented much later
| QUOTE |
| Will corporate crap and corruption come up in running the organization as it gets bigger? Of course, also forseen by Jesus in his speech regarding the bad servants that will beat up others he's put in charged with. |
And Jesus did not foresee anything in this case. His speech is about the Judaism at his time, which i can imagine is not much different that Christianity today. This meaning can be seen from Mark 11 (before the parable)
"And as he was walking in the temple, the chief priests and the scribes and the elders came to him ..."
and Mark 12:
"And he began to speak to them in parables ... <the parable here> ... and they tried to arrest him, but feared the multitude, for they perceived that he had told the parable against them"
I don't think Jesus expected his battle against organized religions will end up with the largest organized religion on earth
| QUOTE |
| So, according to the author, it's ok to believe in god, but thru finding the individual relationship, not thru organized religion. What do you yourself think? What about the basic human need for group, belonging into something? |
I think your missing the point here. The author claims the statment in my first post comes from God himself. The book is set up in a question/answer dialogue format, I just quoted what GOD himself was saying about religon.
The only way you truly can have a relationship with God is directly with him, NOT through someone else. God is willing to speak to each individual completely on their own. Its a 1-on-1 relationship. God does not Gossip, and tell other people his will for you.
And yes if you would read the book, God does want want people coming together to discuss him. In this way we as humans can learn more about God. I think you need to differentiate and understand that the relationship between God and man, and man with man are on two different levels, spiritually speaking. Neither one is wrong, or in the relative sense better than the other, its just a different type of relationship in each case.
| QUOTE (Venomshocker @ Jul 18 2004, 08:31 PM) |
| I think your missing the point here. The author claims the statment in my first post comes from God himself. The book is set up in a question/answer dialogue format, I just quoted what GOD himself was saying about religon. |
Ok, since it's what god says... and yep, I did miss the point, and seems that I still do. From what I've seen I don't think that reading the book would help much. Anyways, it's nice that people wonder about this stuff, and I think it's been a good thread.
Mrs Asterix
| QUOTE |
| Why recruit followers? To make the church stronger. Same reason the army recruits soldiers. Why should they attack threats? I dont necessairily mean physical threats, but also ideological threats, like oppressing and/or killing people with different ideologies than the church, because the church interprets for their "god" and claims to know what is right and what is wrong. Why was there a need to establish an organized religion? I guess none of us really know what started organized religion, but I'm willing to bet that it started with the idea of getting power, either thats what caused it, or thats what it became soon after it being created. |
Stellar,
So let me get this straight: People just start organized religions to oppress others? Someone just says, "I think those folks need some oppressin'! Let's go do it for gawd [god]!" I think this is a highly simplistic way of looking at any religion.
Many ask, "Why would someone start a religion?" as if people are starting religions from the bottom up: the Freudian/Fuerbachian idea of humans creating god(s) out of an internal drive of some sort. This is a naturalistic assumption, though. How about this: God reveals Himself and begins His own religion. Because God loves humans, the needs of human beings are met. So it's not human need that conjures up God; instead, our very needs are indicative of fact that we need God and the kind of God-centered community that will nurture us (I guess you could call this "religion"). Also, all religions have rituals in which the participants re-inact important parts of their religious histories, and they have stories (meta-narratives) that undergird their religions. Gathering together to celebrate events in religious history and to tell/pass on the narratives integral to the religion are highly important and have very little to do with oppressing people or bringing them under control.
As far as Chrisitianity goes, we don't share the gospel with people (what you call "recruiting") to make the church more powerful, as if we're trying to get more folks together for some kind of battle or something. We share the gospel because it is Christ's mandate that we tell other people of God's love for them through Jesus so that they will have an opportunity to freely give their lives to Jesus. Many may not like or believe in Christianity, but this is the purpose behind evangelism.
I'm interested, what do you base your Christians-as-army-recruiters portrait on?
| QUOTE |
| I'm interested, what do you base your Christians-as-army-recruiters portrait on? |
I can't help.. imagine Jesus with his index finger pointed at you, saying "I Want You" ...
Oh.. and you must also remember that Zoroastrianism, supposedly the precursor of Monotheism, is an exclusive religion. If you're not born from or mary a follower, then you can't enter the religion. How is that for gaining power?
| QUOTE (trublvr @ Jul 18 2004, 11:20 PM) |
| |
| QUOTE |
So let me get this straight: People just start organized religions to oppress others? Someone just says, "I think those folks need some oppressin'! Let's go do it for gawd [god]!" I think this is a highly simplistic way of looking at any religion. |
No, they were started because of some dilusion and then believe that they need to oppress what they see as "threats" to their religion, ie: disbelievers... and some religions might have been just to get followers and have power... kind of what i think Rael is doing now . Either way, at some point in organised religions past, power played a big factor, and all the church wanted was power, power, power. Keep in mind we're talking about in the past.
| QUOTE |
How about this: God reveals Himself and begins His own religion. Because God loves humans, the needs of human beings are met. So it's not human need that conjures up God; instead, our very needs are indicative of fact that we need God and the kind of God-centered community that will nurture us (I guess you could call this "religion"). |
How bout no. You have even less backing that up than I have backing my version up.
| QUOTE |
Also, all religions have rituals in which the participants re-inact important parts of their religious histories, and they have stories (meta-narratives) that undergird their religions. Gathering together to celebrate events in religious history and to tell/pass on the narratives integral to the religion are highly important and have very little to do with oppressing people or bringing them under control. |
What does that have to do with anything, really? A murderer can watch TV and that has nothing to do with him killing people... I dont know what you're trying to say with that.
| QUOTE |
As far as Chrisitianity goes, we don't share the gospel with people (what you call "recruiting") to make the church more powerful, as if we're trying to get more folks together for some kind of battle or something. We share the gospel because it is Christ's mandate that we tell other people of God's love for them through Jesus so that they will have an opportunity to freely give their lives to Jesus. Many may not like or believe in Christianity, but this is the purpose behind evangelism. |
Maybe not any more, but what did christianity do in the new world to the indians for example? Recruiting, and opressing those who did not accept. And, assuming that Christianity was purposly created so that someone gains power, the sharing of the gospel because its Christs mandate thing would just fit with recruiting to give the church more power... and people wouldnt even know that they were doing that.
| QUOTE |
I'm interested, what do you base your Christians-as-army-recruiters portrait on? |
How the christians treat(ed) others...
Religion is bad. Religion lies to get people to join their church. My grandma told me a story of how a nun at her catholic church told her that her mom was going to hell just because she wasn't catholic. She still believed in God and prayed and was saved, but she was still going to hell. That's not Jesus' teachings. Many people get it mixed it, especially athiests who hear these stories. If you actually pay attention to what Jesus actually says, then maybe people wouldn't be so turned off to Christianity.
| QUOTE (saucy @ Jul 19 2004, 01:40 AM) |
| Religion is bad. Religion lies to get people to join their church. My grandma told me a story of how a nun at her catholic church told her that her mom was going to hell just because she wasn't catholic. She still believed in God and prayed and was saved, but she was still going to hell. That's not Jesus' teachings. Many people get it mixed it, especially athiests who hear these stories. If you actually pay attention to what Jesus actually says, then maybe people wouldn't be so turned off to Christianity. |
No no no Saucy, its mentality like yours that assumes that anyone who doesnt think like you doesnt know enough or learnt wrong. I'm just saying that I see a great possibility that lot of religion, if nto even the beginnings of organised religion, had a great deal to do with power. You cant deny that the church was trying to convert indians in the new world and opressing the ones that didnt convert.
| QUOTE (PsychicPenguin @ Jul 18 2004, 12:39 PM) | ||
|
Can someone either confirm or deny everything Jesus ever "mentioned" was written 200 years after he mentioned it ???
Also I'm led to believe if Jesus ever did actually write anything himself, not a written word of his has ever been found. Is this true ???
| QUOTE (oy- @ Jul 18 2004, 09:19 PM) |
| Also I'm led to believe if Jesus ever did actually write anything himself, not a written word of his has ever been found. Is this true ??? |
There are the supposed "Q" documents that were rumored to have been penned by Jesus himself. Nothing has ever been found, and it is just a rumor as far as I know.
The Apocripha are books that were written at the same time as the other books of the bible but did not get added(cannonized) to the final bible. There is some interesting stuff there that I am glad I read.
| QUOTE |
| You cant deny that the church was trying to convert indians in the new world and opressing the ones that didnt convert. |
Without a doubt the conversion of Native Americans was to gain power over them. It went way beyond converting; their children were taken from them and put into Indian Schools. There they were not allowed to speak their native tongue or practice their religions or they would be beaten. They were taught white man's ways and the christian faith. When they were returned to their parents they couldn't even speak to each other. This is a shame our country will never live down and it is the christian mandate to convert all people that is responsible for this.
Everyone has their own Path to follow. In my faith there is no conversion, you are expected to find your own Path with meditation and study. If you want to join a group and have a priest/priestess tell you want to do that is ok. If you want to be solitary that is fine. You want to be a christian that is fine, that is your Path.
I have heard the christian message loud and clear, and I pass. I have the right to do that so far.
Stellar,
while we all agree that people use relligions for money and power, it is certainly not the reason behind its creation. As i said earlier, a lot of religion founders and early leaders were not powerful at all. Religion is much more complex than an instrument for money and power.
Saucy,
while we all agree that people use relligions for money and power, it is certainly not the reason behind its creation. As i said earlier, a lot of religion founders and early leaders were not powerful at all. Religion is much more complex than an instrument for money and power.
Saucy,
| QUOTE |
| grandma told me a story of how a nun at her catholic church told her that her mom was going to hell just because she wasn't catholic. |
please disregard anything that the catholic curch did before the 1960s. Modern catholicism has otaly different ideas
| QUOTE |
There are the supposed "Q" documents that were rumored to have been penned by Jesus himself. Nothing has ever been found, and it is just a rumor as far as I know. |
Actually when you read the bible, it is often written that Jesus teached from the Gospel, or from the Word. According to muslim interpretation, it refers to the original Gospel given to Jesus in the same way that the Quran was given to Muhammad.
| QUOTE (PsychicPenguin @ Jul 19 2004, 01:56 PM) |
| while we all agree that people use relligions for money and power, it is certainly not the reason behind its creation. As i said earlier, a lot of religion founders and early leaders were not powerful at all. Religion is much more complex than an instrument for money and power. |
Matter of fact huh?
Seriously, I find it funny when people claim to know stuff liek this. You have no way of knowing what reason it was created for, same with me. Dont pretend that you know what it certainly wasnt created for.
| QUOTE (Stellar @ Jul 19 2004, 03:06 PM) |
| Matter of fact huh? Seriously, I find it funny when people claim to know stuff liek this. You have no way of knowing what reason it was created for, same with me. Dont pretend that you know what it certainly wasnt created for. |
Stellar,
The story of Sidharta Gaotama cleary tells about a prince who gave up his power for religion. The same goes with Paul. The use of Christianity for power did not began until Constantine was arround.
Muhammad might be the only one who became really powerful because of his teaching, but even in his case, the power came much later. Both Muhammad and Martin Luther jeopardized their well-established position in the society by creating a new faith, and both of them almost get killed because if their ideas.
Religion is bad.
But who said that Christianity is a religion?
It is still a debate wether it is a religion or fact.
But who said that Christianity is a religion?
It is still a debate wether it is a religion or fact.
| QUOTE (Norman @ Jul 19 2004, 08:58 AM) |
| It is still a debate wether it is a religion or fact. |
Huh?
I might be missing something but that is like saying that it is a debate whether television is an electronic device or a simile...
| QUOTE |
| But who said that Christianity is a religion? |
Well by definition, many have including dictionary.com:
re·li·gion n.
Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
| QUOTE |
| Religion is bad. But who said that Christianity is a religion? It is still a debate wether it is a religion or fact. |
Hello, Hellooo, Is there anybody in there. Then that means that my faith is a fact, too. All this time I have been calling it a religion. We might as well throw in Hindism, Islam, Shamenism, Jewdism, ..... etc. Any religion is a fact for these that believe in it. BUT it is still a religion.
| QUOTE (PsychicPenguin @ Jul 19 2004, 04:58 PM) | ||
Stellar, The story of Sidharta Gaotama cleary tells about a prince who gave up his power for religion. The same goes with Paul. The use of Christianity for power did not began until Constantine was arround. Muhammad might be the only one who became really powerful because of his teaching, but even in his case, the power came much later. Both Muhammad and Martin Luther jeopardized their well-established position in the society by creating a new faith, and both of them almost get killed because if their ideas. |
Im not saying every religion is created for power, but power usually comes into play sooner or later. Either way, why were we arguing about this anyway lol?
| QUOTE (Norman @ Jul 19 2004, 04:58 PM) |
| It is still a debate wether it is a religion or fact. |
A debate being run by who? The fanatic little chilish christians who can not accept that theres no hard core scientific proof of their religion? I have never seen so many people from other religions whine about science and history as much as some of these christians. How can it be a debate? IT SIMPLY CAN NOT BE FACT because the Bible and Faith isnt enough to make it FACT. The people that think theres enough to make christianity fact need to grow up and accept reality.
*Note* I am not calling all christians childish and all that.
| QUOTE |
| Either way, why were we arguing about this anyway lol? |
to find the nature of religions
| QUOTE |
| IT SIMPLY CAN NOT BE FACT because the Bible and Faith isnt enough to make it FACT. |
unfortunately.. this is also debateable
anyway, what is the proper relationship between "religion" and "fact" ? Aren't religions supposed to contain facts? No matter how absurd do you think the bible is, it does contain a wealth of informations.
edited for mispelled (did i spell mispelled correctly?)
isnt religion just the beliefs of others years and years ago. i think we should find our own truths out. believe our own experiences and then decide what to believe. i think we close our mind off when we follow strict regiment religions. i have both christians and muslims in my family, in recent years my family members from both religions have began searching for their own truths, using their divine experiences with God. many of my family members are now becoming more spiritually aware, and i embrace that. they are learning about spiritual healing etc, i think this shows that the religions they were following did not feel true to them. i think as years goes by, religion will begin to crumble as people become less satisfied with the teachings. my muslim family live in Iran, a very strict islamic country, but my family are starting to question their faith, much like my christian relatives. i am really glad they are having spiritual experiences that have made them question their official religion. i feel we all have more in common now. religion divides people, but luckily it didnt divide my family to the extent that they are prejudice of other religions. and now i see them being more open minded, i feel we are living in an age of spiritual awakening. i hope so anyway, because religion has spilt too much blood to date.
To each his own, I respect what others believe for the simple fact that it makes them feel better, but what I believe is what is here and what is going on......nature and mother earth! Sometimes we have to look at what is happening right at our feet rather than in our minds. Did we forget that we are made up of this planet in which we currently reside on and can't she pull the plug on life as we know it or even altogether?
Some things are uncontrollable, so why waste time worring about it.... hey we might not have it tommorrow.
Some things are uncontrollable, so why waste time worring about it.... hey we might not have it tommorrow.
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