Why do some religious people (christians in particular) feel the need to object/counter science at every instant? I've seen far too many christians attempt to gain followers through lies and deception and spreading misconceptions of science, sometimes knowingly, sometimes not, just to get followers? These are the ones I'm talking about in particular. Why do they feel the need to challenge science all the time and try to pull away people from science, sometimes successfully (depending the persons knowledge and understanding of science) just to get them to side with christianity? Why cant they accept that their belief is a belief only, and if they're gonna keep trying to convert/spread the word, they can portray it as it is and for what its not---science. I cant understand why some people do this, can anyone explain?

Because God hates us Stellar, He really does.

Seriously though, I would say it comes from the believer's personal insecurities about their religion and life in general. What it comes down to is that it's their problem, being made into ours.

By us and ours I of course mean the people annoyed by the people in your question.

I give 2-1 this baby gets shut down mighty quick.

The answer to your questions are in the bible actually. It would take more time to respond with verses and such than I am really willing to take, but I have studied the bible for some time to figure out the same things.

It's all in there. It doesn't make sense to me, but it's there.

Theres no reason for it to get shut down. I'm trying to figure out their reasons. Theres no flame war or anything, it would be unfair to shut it down. It would be like shutting down a thread about "Why do people get abducted"

I would have to say that, in certain mindsets, this is a case where the ends justify the means. If they truly believe that your only options are heaven and hell, then they will do whatever it takes to get you into heaven, confident that God will forgiven them for ther lies because they either got more people on His side, or because they had such good intentions.

As a Christian who believes that there's no conflict between the truths of science and the historical truth of The Bible I feel that I'm qualified to not just confirm that it is with the best intentions for the eternal destiny of the non-believer that our evangelistic (At least in my case, I can't speak for everyone) efforts are made, but deny completely the allegation that "lies" are somehow knowingly spread in an "The end justifies the means" scenario. God tells us that to lie is to sin, and you don't have to be a Christian to recognise that sin is bad. We (As Christians) could not do good by lying any more than we could do good through murder. The kind of thinking that's involved here is that if we as Christians could somehow "sucker" you non-believers into signing on the dotted-line so to speak,if we could "fleece" you into buying into our beliefs, then somehow that would be a good thing.

To say that this is'nt the case would be an understatement of Biblical proportions.


What is in question when it comes to science in general, where belief in God comes into the picture, is that whethor or not non-believers would like to admit it, there are many points in science where you have to decide one way or another which particular kind of evidence you're going to accept as "fact". This is where personal beliefs come in. If for example you are of the opinion that God does not exist and that The Bible is full of lies, then you most likely won't accept evidence scientific or otherwise, which goes against these personal biases. When faced with evidence which supports the truthfullness of The Bible you will in all likelihood write it off as a "fabrication" and then proceed to find every single like minded person who agrees with your personal biases in order to support your rejection of said evidence. Not only is this intellectually dishonest, but if we as believers are correct then it will be devestating to you personally in the most eternal sense. I honestly believe that this is why this occurs so often, because the stakes are so high.

I do hope that we can have an honest exchange of ideas here, trying our level best to keep emotions (At least the negative ones) and rancor out of it as much as possible. It's obvious that we don't agree where The Bible is concerned, let's just try to do so in as decent and as kind a way as we can, for I'd like to be able to "speak the truth in love" as Gods word instructs me to do.

Well wishes and prayers to all.

Short answer:
1. science public school textbooks and scientist do not tell the truth or even allow for the rational intellectual challenge of creation science vs evolution science
the state and scientist lie, not the churches.

2. Christianity is the only religion with a resurrection and the proof for it.

3. Ignorant and unreasonable members may be found in all religions.

4. Creation, the flood, the resurrection, and more are enough empirical evidence to show that Christianity is not only belief, but belief supported by facts.

5. all religions require a step of faith, beyond the facts.

6. Science is not God, but may lead people to God.

7. Christians who fear science and philosophy may be ignorant or willfully ignorant of those subjects.

Edit; removed redundant quote

I don't see any of these so called facts. All i can see is that they're written in a big heavy book called "the bible"...What proof is that?

If the truth of The Bible is not evident upon reading it, then futher searching into history and discoveries, for example the archaeological type might be in order.

One really easy way to do this would be to type Christian Evidences into a search engine and then check out the results. They're out there, all you have to do is look for them and then be honest enough with yourself to not totally dismiss that evidence out of hand based on personal feelings against the subject matter.

Take care all.

I think you really have to ask what your definition of evidence is if your going to make comments like that.

The bible is what it is, a religious text upon which Christianity is based, it is not a historical textbook.

It should be seen as a reference for leading a good and honest life, it's stories are all important ones we can learn many things from but by no means is the bible an accurate account of historical events.

I consider myself as christian... I do have to admit, that when christians are handled as a group in topics here, and the way atheists or ppl from other religions are descriping christians, it creeps me out. I've never seen myself like that.

I can give you a fair and true answer not being a Christian.


I sometimes feel the need to put down, dis-prove and dis-credit religion every time i see someone post omething religious? Why?

Because it goes against my beliefs.

That's why christians try to dis-credit science with their god mumbo-gumbo all the time.

I am always open and very interested in hearing about other people's ideas on science... however I still stand fast in my Religious beliefs on creation.

I have seen no scientific proof of evolution.. just as non-believers can say they have seen no proof of creationism.

I believe that everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe. I feel I am lucky to have a strong faith in God and the belief of creation.

I as a Christian love to share my beliefs with others... I feel it is the truth and want to at least get my message across. If people choose not to believe that is their choice and their right.

Just like people... scientists... teachers.. who-ever... sharing their beliefs on evolution or other science... it is my choice to believe or not believe.

I try not to "push" my beliefs on others... but I am very open about what I believe and try to share with who ever i can.

~Nxt2Hvn

We christians believe that God created all things that exist.
We christians believe that God formed all dimensions and
they all have their purpose.
We christians believe that there is a heaven and hell. and
people choose where they would like to go. Science has
attempted to reject and disaproove of the idea of GOD and
the Bible. However, scientist NOW find that there is a strong
possibility that there is an outer force which triggered all existance.
We christians believe that GOD made science and physics.
However, your modern "idea" has put science in a box! You think
that God is impossible. We christians believe that all people who
reject God will be judged. I'm just writing the truth. This is really
what we believe. And I am a chirstian. But God commanded me
and all christians to love everyone. So, it is not a "point the finger"
method which we use to convert people. We also do not wish to blow
people up like the Muslims. We christians will not fall away from our
faith because something inside of us is a witness that tells us that this
is real. Some of my non-christian friends say that GOD is just something
in people's minds. Well, I do not want to argue about people's beliefs
because I cannot argue anyone to believe anything. It is YOUR choice.

Well, I'm a Christian, but I also believe in science. The only thing I disagree on with science is the evolution thing. But, that's just me. I mean, I don't disargree that we, as well as everything else on earth, has evolved over time, I just don't think we came from monkeys, that's all. The reason for my belief in this, is that species that evolve over time, the thing that they evolve into is the only one still around, the other disapears, and monkeys are still around to this day. I don't know the truth though, no one really does, but it's just my belief.

***I do believe in stem stell research as well. Cloning on the other hand...well, it depends on what kind. Reproductive no, therapeudic, yes. Cloning cells, and eventually organs to help in transplant surgeries and such is ment to help human kind, cloning sheep, and eventualy humans I think is is not right or necessary. But again, only my opinion.****

A book written by a bunch of dudes a couple thousand years ago.

I can write a book.

Infact, i think i will. And i'm going to make up a character called Hogo, who will be the son of Golo, the god of my story. And in a thousand years all will worship Hogo and Golo.

Sound silly huh.
Well, there ya go.

It's nice to see so many of faith here. It evens things out.

I think that all of us of faith are in agreement that while we try to share our knowledge with others who do not have faith; that ultimately it's up to them to decide what to believe,which is both the simplest, yet most difficult parts of having faith.

Your analogy was quite interesting odinsgrl and I must agree that, in the days before I became a Christian, I too was a bit put off by the pressure that some Christians exert (Albeit unknowingly in many cases) in their attempts to explain the importance of The Bible and doing Gods will. However I understand more now why a Christian tries so hard. If I may be permitted to add to your "salesman" analogy, imagine now that the salesman felt that for a CERTAINTY something horrible would happen to you UNLESS you bought something. Now while some salespeople might have the attitude (once armed with this conviction) that it's better you than them, the more caring ones would probably try everything that they could think (That would'nt cause them to lose their job) to get you to make a purchase. I realize that this might be a little abstract, but I think that you get the idea. Christians who are perhaps "tryng too hard" might just be doing so out of love and concern.

BurnSide you've already revealed that in all honesty (Points for that! ) you're not being objective and in point of fact seem to have a particularly blunt edged axe to grind when it comes to The Bible in general and Christianity in particular.
The "bunch of dudes" as you stated so eloquently wrote many books over thousands of years, that as a collected work known worldwide as The Bible has never been disproven though there are numerous ways that one SHOULD be able to do so IF it were a work of fiction. WHY has'nt it been proven a work of fiction after all this time despite the fevered efforts of those like yourself who've invested an awful lot of their time TRYING to dis-prove something that they ACT like is nothing but lies? BECAUSE IT'S TRUE.

A little respect for the beliefs and convictions of others is not too much to ask of anyone. And yes, this does go both ways.

Take care all.

Again... this smug, superior attitude.....

Tell me, how SHOULD we be able to prove that its a work of fiction? We obviously cant get the writers and interrogate them. But if its the truth... its not been proven yet either, so claiming you know that its true is just deluding yourself.

Stellar I'm sorry if my explaining my beliefs strikes you as smug and superior, that's not my intention at all, and I'm sorry that you take it that way.

As far as The Bible not being proven yet, well if you mean 100% proven then I agree with you, that's where the faith comes in. But if what you're suggesting is that there's no proof to back up the historical accuracy of the biblical accounts then I could'nt Dis-agree with you more strongly. There's alot of evidence out there that points towards the truth of the scriptures and I think that you know that, or at least suspect it. Why not look into it yourself?

What were you talking about with the whole killing of non-believers thing? You lost me on that one.

Anyway, take care.

oo, i want some of this evidence please.

It seems that I have unconsiously started my own crusade to increase ppl's awareness. Allow me to sum up my point in this thread:

I think, you can't address christians as a group, not in a question like this. You could ask, why christians believe in Jesus, for that you could get general christian answer, when attitude towards science is not depending on christianity. Christians come in so many different packages
The question Stellar originally asked could get a variety of different answers depending from which christian church or group the specific christian comes from. There's presbyterians, baptists, catholics, orthodox, lutherian, protestants, adventists etc etc..... Their views might be quite different despite having the same base for religion. For example it might be a good question to ask why amish are against technological developement (they are christian), but then again it would be funny to get an answer thru internet
So, back to my point, if you really would like an answer, you should be more specific when posing the question. Like you see, with the current one you only get a debate if christians are fanatics or not... blaah.. enough already

I do see your point Stellar, I just don't think there's an answer to this question.

PS. Now I've used the word christian so many times, that I can't probably attend any religious convo for the rest of the month.. lol, not with the straight christian face anyway.

Yes. Faith cannot be prooven. But the Bible says that
to christians, faith is the evidence of things not seen.
Only christians who have the Holy Spirit within them can
have faith like this. A faith which trusts in something no matter what.

Of course! So there's no NEED to prove anything!! HOW CONVIENIENT!!

No. This is only for christianity.
And you can only experience it if you are one.

So, you're born christian, like it or lump it?

Are you familiar with the term "Born again"?
Yes. Thats it! Not a physical rebirth but a spiritual,
which you do not believe in obviously.

Actually i am.

My step-father, after divorcing my mother, became a 'born-again christian'. He found faith at the ass-end of the universe after breaking every rule the bible teaches.

BurnSide I'm going to give you a couple, even though I know that;

1) It probably would'nt make a differance with you if I multiplied it by a factor of ten.

2) You're just looking for something to argue about.

However I will still offer some of the kinds of evidences that are both numerous and easy to find because Christians care about non-believers whether or not non-believers would care to admit it or not, and because there are many out there who may read this, who may be honest with themselves and the evidence, and I'd like to encourage the search for truth for those of an honest heart.

* A stone inscription found at Tel Dan in 1993 by Avraham Biran confirms that King David was an actual historical person.

* A latin inscription found in 1961 at Theater in Caesarea tells us of Pontius Pilate, prefect of Judea who built a temple for Tiberius; thus proving the historical reality of another person whose involvement in biblical events (which were historical as well) was already believed by Bible believers to be true.


And finally, for now.....


* The works of Roman historians such as Tacitus, Josephus, Lucian, Pliny the Younger, and Suetonius all confirm the historical reality of Jesus, The Christ (Contrary to much popular thinking, this was not his last name, but was actually a title of sorts; it means messiah, or annointed one.)


I hope that these are enough to peak the interest of anyone who's willing to give The Bible a fighting chance in their hearts and minds, and to show that there is no reason why a modern day Christian can't have a well reasoned faith.

Don't take anyones word for anything on face value alone. If you suspect that something might be true (Or even if not, what have you got to lose?) then by all means look into it and find out for yourself. I think that the truth speaks alot more powerfully anyway if it's not clouded by the opinions of others.

My prayers are with you all.

Todd, thank you for your answer. Do you have sources on that? I'd like to have a closer read up on them, never having heard of them before.

I am not simply looking for something to argue about. My beliefs are something i feel just as strongly as yours and i am generally interested in any real evidence that can be gained as to truth in the Bible and jesus.

BurnSide is a Debate Organiser from Canada.
Yep... But really, I'll practice what I preach, and thats the
last time I'm gonna write to BurnSide about my faith.
Other than that, I think that this generaton will know the answers
soon.

I'm sorry Norman i don't understand that post.

What does me being a debate organiser, or the fact that i live in canada, have to do with anything?

Why will this generation know the answers? Especially since religion is down in this generation from the last almost 30%.

The Bible predicted things a long time ago that will take
place soon, and YOU will know the truth. But then......
I am afraid it will be too late.

Sweeet, looking forward to it.
Since the bible predicted it it must be true! Yay Judgement Day here we come!

Take a note directly out of the bible.

Because of the actions of a few human beings, god decided the earth was ready for re-starting. So he drowned everyone on earth, religious and not.

The world is in a much more dire state now than it was then. What makes the christians here feel that they will be saved, instead of just swept away and horribly killed off like last time?

Judgment day was comming for them too you know....

But why is the historical validity of the bible any more proof that it is true then the historical validity of the Greek Mythology?