This will be a formal debate 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2, depending on how much interest there is in the topic.

Marijuana. The weed. The green. Very recently it's been made legal for medicinal purposes and it's legal for those prescribed to smoke it. But should it be made legal for everyone to enjoy, or is it a harmful drug that should be kept away from the people?

The first two people will be entered into the debate, and if there's more interest then we'll have 2 vs 2. I will flip a coin to determine who will be debating for what side.

If you have any questions, don't hesitate to send me a message.

Happy debating.

I'd quite like to have a go at this one if I may, although being my first debate I wouldn't mind having another person involved with me

I'd love to be apart of this one, but I don't want to be the one trying to lie to win. Seriously, how am I suppose to win a debate if I'm not pro-pot on this one?

Damn coin!

If anyone wants to use my posts from the other thread, go ahead.

Thanks for the interest guys!
I'm gonna just give it another day or so just to see if anyone else is interested, and then we'll do the flip.

I wanna play too! I'm pretty much neutral on this one, so either side will do..

I'll go for it... I'm for legalization of weed, but I can debate the other way around also...

Sorry shaun, you were just a little to late on this one. I've removed your post because it contained information i want to keep inside the debate. Maybe next time? There's also a topic in general discussion which deals with the legalisation of MJ. Maybe you'd like to check that out.


Okay, the debaters are set.

The results of the coin toss are:
Mentalcase and Arben: You will be debating why legalisation of Marijuana is a GOOD thing.
thebarman and Falco Rex, you will be against that arguement, debating that legalisation is BAD.

Each member in the debate is to give an introductory post for their side, followed by four body posts and a conclusion. Team mates may communicate via PMs. Let's keep it fun and civil.

Ok I think I'll start. This is my first debate so please bare with me here

Why should Marijuana be legal?

Freedom

I am speaking from a U.S. point of view here, since its where I live. The government is the one who ultimately chooses what is legal and what is not, however they have to apply the same standards for all products in which they consider to be legal or illegal.
Alcohol kills thousands of people every year and yet it's still legal. Tabacco causes lung cancer, and is filled with many other cancer causing agents that poses a much bigger threat than weed does. The government does not have a right to tell a person what will harm him/her, because the person in question has to make the ultimate decision. A person has a right to choose what they will consume, and with laws and regulations in place- weed will be a much lesser hassle we have to deal with.

Money Saving

Every year governments spend billions of dollars for the "war on drugs" which seem to come out of the tax-payers pay check. All the money that is being wasted to track these people down, pay for their food, drinks, etc. when we could actually have a surplus from weed.
The government could legalize weed and tax it heavly like they do tabacco these days. The street value of weed will go down, and ultimatly at least part of the crimes that happen over drugs will drop. People will not have to kill each other for large amounts of weed nor do they have to fear of being in jail for smoking it.
If they wish to sell the drug in which they grow, then that should be legal and even though it might cut back on buying from regular stores it will still save alot of money because we don't have to house hundreds of inmates.

Education is the way to go

If you wish to keep drugs such as weed from childrens hands then education is the best way to go. From real experience, these days it's actually much easier to get weed rather than alcohol because alcohol is regulated and the government has some control over it.
I believe a young person will much better learn a lesson through a nice speech or a great demonstraton, rather than having been locked up for 24 hours or so in a jail cell. A few teens might get scared, however the majority will go back in the street and again consume the drug.
We should also learn that we tried to prohibit alcohol and that obviously didn't work, since it is legal now. We should learn from our experiences and instead of banning we should be regulating. With all the money we save from "war on drugs" which deal with weed, we can fund that money to educational programs that will make a true difference.

Religious, etc

I believe that some religious folks from Hinduism, Buddhims, Rastafarians, and other religions use weed for special occasions just like Christians use wine for special occasions. If that is so then the governement is going against it's first amendment which states that the government cannot prohibit the free exercise of religion.

As many times discussed weed can be used for medical purposes which helps stimulate apetite and relieve nausea in cancer and AIDS patients.

Cannabis can be used for makings of rope, cloth, paper, and fuel and the examples shown constitues that weed should be legal rather than banned.

Introductory post

The case AGAINST the legalisation of Marijuana

Health Issues

Everyone knows the dangers of smoking tobacco, however smoking with cannabis increases the concentration of the chemicals that cause cancer and other smoking related illnesses.
Making cannabis available legally will undoubtedly encourage smoking among people who would otherwise not have considered starting. This obviously poses a health risk, causing greater strain on an already overstreached health system (In the UK anyway).

Along with the physical harm smoking marijuana can cause, some mental health issues can be raised. Common problems include paranoia and anxiety but in some (all beit extreme) cases has induced pshycotic states resulting an hospital treatment. Links have also been made between the use of cannabis and illnesses such as schizophrenia.

Like smoking, frequented use of cannabis causes sperm depletion in men and suppreses ovulation in women, using "weed" while pregnant tends to make babies lower in weight and have developmental problems.

Social Issues

Regular use of marajuana causes short term memory loss and lack of motivation. While the "relaxed" state of mind may be the intention of the user, the Government would not want to be seen as encouraging this lethargic attitude towards life.
Driving while "stoned" is also a risk, for the Government to legalise cannabis they would have to implement new laws stating when and where its consumption is legal. A simple breathaliser test cannot detect if a person has been taking marijuana which could encourage people to drive while under the influence.

Although certainly not in all cases, smoking a joint will be the first "illegal" substance a person can try. It has been argued that cannabis acts as a stepping stone towards harder drugs, and those that have taken the risk of taking one may then risk taking another.

Legal Issues

If the government believes it a good idea to tax and control the use of cannabis, where would they stop? Everyone knows drugs like cocaine, herion, ecstacy are far more dangerous, but using the arguement that alcohol and tobacco cause more deaths than cannabis smoking can also apply here.

The government, whether we like it or not, is responsible for our safety, maybe we should all ask ourselves -

Would a world without marajuana really be that bad?

Sorry to throw this in here guys, Mentalcase is unable to take part in this debate for reasons against his will. As such, while we're still on the introductory posts i will once again throw this debate OPEN to anyone who wants to take Mentalcase's place since he has not yet posted.

SO, we're looking for ONE more person to join Arben in debating that MJ legalisation is a GOOD THING.

In the meantime Falco Rex can go ahead with his opener.

sign me up burnside =P

Should Marijuana be legalised? Of course not; and with the help of my partner I hope to prove just this. Why should we let yet another mind altering drug hit the stores legally? I think maybe it's time we grew as a race; and any drug stands in the way of this happening.
Of course drugs in general have been a problem throughout history. but never before has there been the level of production and distribution that we see today. Add this to a World Culture who refuses to just suck it up and feel bad once in awhile and you arrive at a problem with serious consequences..
Want to..ummm..expand your mind? Why read a book or study art when you can get high and stare at things? Got a backache? Don't take it easy for a bit. Take the most powerful painkiller you can find. And so on and so forth...
Marijuana all by itself may not seem so bad, but it's just one of many things people use for the avoidance of reality that's endemic to our quick fix culture..
Given that; Why on Earth should it be made even more readily available?
We already lose many lives to alcohol and tobacco, our two legal drugs. And by lost lives I don't just mean death. How much time is lost in a drunken stupor by people every year? And how much money is wasted on cigarettes that could be put to far better use? So why add to that load with yet another "Legal Temporary Solution?"
We shouldn't; seems the obvious answer...

Very good. hunterkiller2001, you'll be debating with Arben on the case for the legalisation. You'll start with the last intro post and talk with your partner via PMs on if you like. Thank you for stepping in.

Sorry about the interuption there guys. looking good so far.

Opening:
Legalizing MJ would be one of the best moves a country could make..

--Most of the cancer causing agents are not in majiuana in it's "natural" form. Other drugs, and chemicals are usually mixed in by dealers to get the buyer more addicted.
Under federal guidelines, the amount of preseratives, and other chemical additives would be reduced to meet under FDA guidelines.. Meaning, the weed would be less dangerous.


--Natural MJ is not a "gateway" drug that many people make it out to be. When laced with cocaine, MJ becomes very addictive, and WILL lead the person to try harder drugs. But i assure you.. Walking into your local gas station and buying a joint will NOT make you go out and buy crack.

--Community Assistance: The tobacco industry donates Millions of dollars to help with education, and communities every year. Not to mention the increased revenue from MJ sales. You may pay a bit more then you would on the street, but those taxes would be going back to the community.

-- Federal warnings and education. The surgeon general and the government pay millions of dollars a year (funded from cigarette tax) to educate the public about the risks of smoking. Don't think for a second that they wouldn't do it for weed.

-- Crime rates would be cut in half. Do you know in 2002 Out of 13,741,438 total arrests, drug related arrests totaled 1,538,813 (US only)? Source Of that, over 50% was related to MJ (trafficking or possesion ONLY)?!?! Think of the money wasted on police, jail, courts.. Think of the Task forces designed to combat drugs.. and they spend a vast majority of thier time hunting down weed.. WEED, not cocaine, not heroin.. But weed... a relativly harmless drug in comparision.

-- Speaking of wasted resources.. consider the 2290 terrorist arrests made in the same year.. on a WORLD scale.

Crime rates cut down? Police with more time to stop serious crime? I doubt it highly. All we'd see is a shift in what type of crimes people were being arrested for.
For one thing, when have criminals ever stood idly by while thier money source dried up?
There's still a fairly thriving black market for cigarrettes and alcohol, just because many people don't want to pay the high taxes that comes with anything that's subject to geovernment regulation. People would still buy from the man on the corner just to get a lower price. And this MJ would still probably still be filled with chemicals and cut..
And ask yourself what new dangerous designer drug might hit the streets to replace weed if it was made legit? Crime is like nature. It abhors a vacuum. Something always fills the gap..
As to the cops having more time to fight crime..well. How many drunk-driving related accidents and deaths are there every year? Now add to that load a whole host of now legal MJ smokers; some of whom won't handle traffic well at all. Far from being able to watch for terrorist related activities the Police will be spending twice as much time filling out accident reports as before. And unlike Alcohol, there's not even a good way to tell how much MJ a person has smoked and how long ago. The same goes for setting a legal limit on it, as smoking it effects many people completely differently. So does alcohol to an extent, but at least with that it's possible to set a general "Too Much" level based on blood content and time. With weed you have no such safety net..
Again I say, "Why add to the problems we already have just so marijuana smokers can feel validated?" If you really want to start clearing up societal problems you have to find a way to keep people off drugs; not adding to the list of those they can legally have..

Ok we're looking for a post from the Arben/Hunterkiller side now.

oh.. ok..

this 2 v 2 thing is to confusing..

to build on Arben's post, Cocaine use has remained stable since 1991, while MJ use has increased. source

One would think if MJ was really the gateway drug you make it out to be, these statisics would rise and fall together.

I need to sift through a lot of data now..

It's amazing. enter Marijuana into google, and get a few million arrest records..

Easily explainable. cocaine usage is dependant on cocaine availibility; and since coke is gone after much harder by Drug Task forces lately the sources are drying up. New sources are always found though. I'd expect to see an increase fairly soon..
That on it's own neither proves nor disproves whether Marijuana is a gateway drug or not.

I would like to apologize to all the participants in this discussion for my absence. I have been quite busy this past week or so, and will make my case either tomorrow or Monday

Still waiting for that post Arben..

Sorry Burnside.......

________________________________________________________________________

Okay, I believe there is too much time being spent on the "gateway" drug issue and we need to focus a little more on some different issues as well. However for those interested in persuing the issue of the gateway drug, here's a website and a research team that conduct a experiment on the theory and came up with it's own theories also.

http://www.rand.org/publications/RB/RB6010/

What I want to cover is deaths related to products that are legal such as tobacco and alcohol versus deaths related to marijuana. The following site gives statics and the source that the statics were found, which clearly shows that alcohol and tobacco cause much more damage to human life then marijuana would. There is even more aspirin deaths which can be bought at any store, then there is marijuana related deaths.

http://www.cannabis.com/untoldstory/hemp_9.shtml

How can a government ban a product which has not shown to result in deaths, and legalize a product which causes 100,000+ deaths every year?
Shouldn't all product be looked at with the same rules and guidelines?

This is all the time I have for now, and again I would like to apologize for my absence...

-Arben

Here's something interesting from your link..
Three facts start it off. These are facts that aren't debateable at all no matter how much you'd like to dance around them.
1. Marijuana users are many times more likely than non-users to progress to hard-drug use
2. Almost all who have used both Marijuana and hard-drugs used Marijuana first.
3. The greater the frequency of Marijuana use, the reater the likelihood of using hard drugs later.
The rest of the link is an attempt tp explain things in a way that's favorable to people who want legalization. Let's face it. No matter if their explanation is correct or not the facts remain what they are. Marijuana and harder drugs tend to go together like peanut butter and jelly. Whether that's because of the drug itself or because of the mindset of the people who use it is irrelevant to this debate. The fact remains that people who use Marijuana often get into harder things.
..and yes alcohol and tobacco cause many more deaths than weed ever has and it's a terrible thing. But why should this be a reason to legalize Pot? It's like saying we're going to attack Iraq because terrorists from saudi Arabia bombed us..Oops. That already happened! All kidding aside; you can see where that kind of logic leads.
I agree with you actually. All products should be looked at with the same rules and guidelines. But if anything we should be taking a harder look at alcohol and tobacco rather than legalizing Marijuana. Although some would like to lull you in with the "It's Harmless" argument; let's not forget for a minute that it's still a mood altering drug..
The let's legalize it because alcohol and tobacco are legal argument always reminds me of somebodys' youngest child whining because the older siblings get to do other things that they don't. And just like with that; oftentimes there's a good reason for things being the way they are. Like I've said before; with the cornucopia of legal drugs we have already there's really no reason to allow more. Especially one that's almost completely recreational in nature, and backed by such dodgy "Facts" and "Studies" of it's uses..

We're looking for a post from the Hunterkiller/Arben side again.

Didn't want to have this thread closed, so just wanted to post and say that I will make my argument later tonight.
Cable connections and Florida hurricanes don't match that well.......

-Arben

PurplePeopleEater, i'm afraid to say i've had to delete your post, as informative and long as it was. Formal Debates are for the people who signed up for the debate, you cannot jump in to them and comments outside those of the debaters will be deleted.



This debate will be closed very soon anyway due to the absence of Falco Rex from the site as well as lack of interest as of late from the posters.

Hey I'm still interested, just waiting for a reply from arben/hunterkiller. I can make my conclusion post if that helps bring things to a close, it's about time this one went to the judges.

Good idea. I don't think there are many more ideas that can be brought to the game at this point, plus the debate can't really continue without Falco Rex. Post you conclusion posts, and this will be passed to the judges as of friday reguardess of who still needs to post.

You do not seem to accept any other explanation to the facts or statements made by the governments of several nations to explain their reasoning for banning marijuana.

I read a article about a week ago which stated that a large majority of marijuana busts are for small possessions and over 70 percent of the cases are dismissed by the judge. So now we have a great deal of money being spent to catch the people who use the drug, money to keep the guy/girl in jail for the night or however long and for the case itself.

I highly doubt that that is worth the trouble when the grand total deaths resulting from marijuana to date is "0" and and over the counter products such as Advil has the death toll in triple digits. Heck even caffeine is more dangerous than marijuana ever was or probably ever will be.

The fact is that I don't believe marijuana is responsible for the people who wonder off to other drugs while using weed, but instead they do it simply because they want to. Marijuana doesn't send anyone to other drugs, but people themselves act irresponsible and get hooked on the drugs without the help of weed.

-Arben

P.S. Will post a conclusion after thebarman......

Sorry kikuchiyo, formal debates are for the debaters who signed up only, all other comments are not allowed as they can affect the formal debate. I've deleted your post. Please remember in the future that you can only participate in a formal debate if you signed up for the debate.

I said that I will make my conclusion after thebarman, however the thread closes tomorrow and I want to make sure I have a conclusion

I certainly do not believe that Marijuana is an "evil" nor as "harmful" as many public officials claim it is. It is less harmful than many products out there today which are very much legal and pose a bigger threat to today's society.

Many critics claim that marijuana has over 300-400 cancer causing chemicals, however even caffeine contains over 1,500 of those chemicals and it is consumed everyday by individuals without doing major harms to their body. Furthermore, a 1997 UCLA study concluded that: "Findings from the long-term study of heavy, habitual marijuana smokers argue against the concept that continuing heavy use of marijuana is a significant risk factor for the development of chronic lung disease." "Neither the continuing nor the intermittent marijuana smokers exhibited any significantly different rates of decline in lung function as compared with those individuals who never smoked marijuana. No differences were noted between even quite heavy marijuana smoking and nonsmoking of marijuana."
The health risks are minimum when using marijuana, however the government(U.S.) still uses the excuse that it poses a health risk to individuals and that is one of the reasons for it not being legal. Looking at many studies proves the government wrong, and it does not make sense to use such a tactic over and over again for the support of marijuana prohibition.

Now let's go to the kids and the streets. Keeping marijuana illegal does not keep it out of the streets nor out the hands of children and teenagers. Dealers will try to sell the product to anyone, so what stops them from selling it to the kids?
Do you think a well regulated drug will keep the product away from kids better or a product which is on the streets and sold by someone who has no other intention other than making that $5 or $6 bucks for a nickel or that $10-$11 for that dime?
The dealer has a much higher chance of selling the drug to a minor than someone working behind the counter of a Shell's or 7 Eleven store. The risks concerning the children are higher in my opinion when marijuana is banned rather than legalized because when or if it is legalized, regulations will be in place to stop the distribution to minors.

Also I believe that this a worthless war against a harmless product and it is a war that no nation is going to win, unless they give death penalties to all the offenders. There are much more worse things we need to worry about, and we need to spend our money on more dangerous things rather than spending $15 billion trying to stop the popularity or the rise of marijuana.

I believe I had my say and thanks to my opponents for their patience during my absence and best of luck to you.

-Arben

Alright. While this was a fantastic debate from all sides, it's high-time it was passed along to the judges. Thank you all for taking part in the debate, it will be a tough one to judge for sure!!



JUDGES:
This will be a tough one to judge since you are judging FOUR people instead of the usual TWO.
Judge them all and them when three judges have posted their individual scores for the debaters, i will average the scores up and get a final average team score.

Very good debating! Well done all of you. This is tough!

Debater/ HunterKiller2001
Relevancy: 8
Countering: 7
Style: 7
Persuasiveness:8
Total: 30

Debater/ Arben
Relevancy:9
Countering:8
Style:8
Persuasiveness:9
Total: 34

Debater/ Barman
Relevancy: 9
Countering:9
Style:9
Persuasiveness:9
Total:36

Debater/ Falco

Relevancy:10
Countering:9
Style:9
Persuasiveness:9
Total:37

Debater - HunterKiller2001
Relevancy: 8
Countering: 7
Style: 6
Persuasiveness:7
Total: 28

Debater - Arben
Relevancy:8
Countering:8
Style:7
Persuasiveness:7
Total: 30

Debater - Barman
Relevancy: 9
Countering:9
Style:8
Persuasiveness:9
Total:35

Debater - Falco

Relevancy:9
Countering:9
Style:8
Persuasiveness:9
Total:35

Debater - HunterKiller2001
Relevancy: 8
Countering: 7
Style: 7
Persuasiveness:7
Total: 29

Debater - Arben
Relevancy:8
Countering:8
Style:7
Persuasiveness:8
Total: 31

Debater - Barman
Relevancy: 9
Countering:8
Style:8
Persuasiveness:9
Total:34

Debater - Falco

Relevancy:9
Countering:9
Style:9
Persuasiveness:9
Total:36

Fantastic! The results are in!
Here are your individual scores:

HunterKiller scores a wonderful 29!
Arben scores a beautiful 32!
Falco Rex scores an Incredible 36!
Barman scores an amazing 35!

And your team scores are:

Team Hunterkiller/Arben, you have scored together a whopping 31!!
Team Barman/Falco Rex takes the cake with an astounding team score of 36 points!! The best we've ever had to be sure.

Congratulations, and thank you all for taking part.