Would that be the section that begins with this statement?

Nate,

Researching things on-line isn't going to get you too far. The internet is good for abstracts and general direction, but not for true study. What you need to do is search for the universities with paranatural research departments, and see if they have a link to their thesis archives. Chances are that they will not (few universities, and none come to mind, have their studies open to public access). What you will need to do is get the reference number of the study you are looking for and contact the university, or if it available as a research item with your public library, ask them for help. They will be able to get you the specific study you request. There might be a charge, anywhere from $10 to $50.

The reason for all this is basically to winnow out the casual seeker. Universities do not like to waste their graduate student's time with frivolous requests, so they make sure that only people familiar with the research process are able to request their studies. Also, be advised that the studies will consist of formulas, statistics, and imperical data. It won't be in a narrative format, as it is on the internet and in most books. This is data crunching at the academic level.

Aquatus-
Im a little confused with the problem that you and others have with people who claim to have special abillities. Is it the fact that they are making these claims or is it that they dont want to prove it when asked to?
-Just curious

Both.
It's dumb to make such a clam, and it's dumb to make such a claim without backing it up at all.


I found a Genie yesterday. I rubbed the lamp, out popped a Genie, and granted me three wishes.
Anakim, you HAVE to believe me and this story. Otherwise, you'll be a hypocrite, believing one outrageous claim but not another.

But there is a very big difference in your example and whats going on. Noone is telling you that you have to belive in what you are reading and noone expects you to.
Do you understand were im coming from or no?

It's been posted that it exists, and we are saying it doesn't.

If you don't want to back up the fact that it exists, don't post that it does. Quite simple really.

why not? This is a public forum with a section on psychic phenomena.

Yes, this is a public forum.

And as such, we have the right to share our view of such things in any forums publicly posted. Our view is such, your view is such. You post your view, you back it up. We post our view, we back it up. Therefore people reading the public forum is entitled to 2 different opinions, both the person posting that these things exist with no proof, and the person posting these things don't exist, asking for proof. That way people reading can make up their own minds as of the subject.
So is the nature of PUBLIC forums.

As i said, don't like it, post in a non-public forum. Simple.

The problem is you attack whether a person is posting a personal point of view or just ask questions on a point of view. It makes no sence.
Ex. If I posted that last night i lifted my car with tk but posted no proof of the event would i be wrong in posting it here?

Yes.
That would be lying. I do not give liars the time of day, and the only thing i've seen, in my personal opinion, is lies from the people boasting such claims.

Mr. Gonzo, you need a banner. Oh, and you're completely on the mark.

Gonzo-
you make it sound like we are debating wether its real or not. We arent even trying to change your beliefs let alone debate the subject. Yet still there is so much hostility coming from Burnside and people like him and only because we choose not to prove an ability that we can care less whether others belive in or not. Does that make kuch sence to you?

[edit] decided it was a pointless post.

Lol! Burnside you sound like some kind of avenging angel of the forum. Is it realy that seriouse to you? Do our claims realy mean that much to a skeptic such as your self? Its funny how random posts by a bunch of people you dont know can get so far underneath your skin.

I guess you're right about that Anakim.

I think we shall depart here, my point has been made, and there are others that want to make points.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.



One thing:
Yeah, i showed alot of hostility, but that doesn't mean i have judged you or anyone claiming these abilities or whatever as bad, wrong, negative in anyway. From your other posts, you're chill. I just wont believe in the impossible so lightly.

I agree! No hard feelings!

I see your point but we're not making claims we are discussing things that we can do or things that have happened to us, with others who have had similar experiences or whom ever wishes to listen. Thats it!

Unfortunately extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence, so if people do make such claims they have to accept some hardline questions and skepticism. However I will say that for every blind believer in all things paranormal there is the arch skeptic who, despite declaiming a desire to find proof, has so invested in traditional scientific/materialistic world veiws that no amount of proof or evidence would ever suffice.

It seems the hardliners from both sides of this polarity are so emotionally bound to one particular outlook that any genuine investigation is doomed to be hijacked by one or the other. Psi and related areas have been scientifically investigated and despite claims that no proof has ever been found this statement is slightly disingenious as plenty of evidence suggestive of it's possibility has, for those who cry that we need absolute proof then I nod to the theory of relativity or the theory of evolution, neither are proof either just theories, backed up by observable evidence, yet they are generally accepted by the mainstream while psi research that falls into the same category is rejected outright, this is the kind of bias that afflicts such research from the outset no wonder it never gains ground. Randi's reputation has been continually plagued by concerns and claims that he tried to willfully influence results, this has compromised his credibility and therefore his claims cannot be accepted as proof of anything.

i dont understand why fluffybunny and burnside have to be so negative and close-minded. this site is unexplained mysteries so dont bring the rest of us down who enjoy this stuff. (by the way i dont have psychic powers but im interested in tapping into them)

what if people like you dont belive in a cure for cancer with the same passion you dont believe in psychic abilities??? open up your mind a little and explore. your close-mind is only generating negative energy. but if your happy in your own safe little world, thats fine.

I took myself out of this after explaining myself fully so please don't drag me into it again. It is not me or fluffy or any of us who are close-minded, we have said MANY MANY MANY times we would believe if ONE shed of prove was presented to us. As it is, it has not been proven. Therefore, there is nothing to believe.

Your arguement is a little silly, there is no cure for cancer, one does not currently exist and therefore there is nothing to believe in. Once cancer is cured and a treatment created, it will then exist undeniably.

Lastly, Unexplained-Mysteries is NOT for people to claim that they have super powers, it's about mysteries that cannot be explained. We skeptics are doing alot more for Unexplained-Mysteries than people who claim us false. We look to science to EXPLAIN these mysteries, we don't close ourselves off and choose to simply blindly believe in things with no proof, or without giving proof.

End rant.

And the point of point out that quote was what exactly?

It's better than saying 'i believe it because i feel it's real'.

hahahaha

you still didint answer my question::::::::

That question wasn't there when i posted. It was just a quote.

I'll read it over. Hold up.

haha

We've posted our opinions on those sites. They do not give any scientific proof whatsoever, and psipog.net admits to not having any scientific proof. Read aquatus post, it pretty much covered it.

correct. but then how do you expect us to prove it?

well... perhaps we have accomplished spinning the psi wheel, rolling pencils, etc... but there would only be one problem to that, science cant explain how that works, and how that can happen.... meaning we cant either.. But ideas, theories, Ways, these are all subjectives to finding a clue on how it all works in its own ways. So yes, people can be sitting in frustration for hours on analyzing the data of how it is all supposed to be. As for parapsychologists thats what they do. And still they come up with nothing, even though all of the proof is right in front of them. They can get any telekinetic infront of the world to levitate a chair. but thats still not proof. proof to scientists, is simply understanding how it all works... and yet that cant be defined. So as in a way, skeptics like such. have the right to question me, and others on this forum. And i totally understand that.

But its importent to know that 40 years ago, if you happen to have lived back then and told some of the people that "did you know that in forty years medicine will change the world! meaning: doctors will be able to make people unconsciencs! Doctors will be able to transplant breasts, and nose jobs... and will have cures for diseases they dont have for cures now!" and things like that, people there will crack up at you right in front of your face! they will think your crazy! "hey, did you know in forty years new communication will have technology such as cell phones!"
"There programming television will have color! yes color i tell you!" People will be like "what are you crazy!" But take a look, 40 years past and what do we have? exactly what those people have said and told. Its just the same thing! Maybe in the future we will discover machines that exactly tell us how our brain-left and right- function. That way parapsychologists will be confused no more! because that very system will tell you how the psychic inside of us works!

Im sure 40 years ago nobody knew how they eat, drink, breath, smell, see! all of these things! 40 years ago People saw in the eyes of western science! Anything that didint fit there point of view in that world they either said it was a fake-or-fraud. They never happend to believe any thing they thought was not real... were they afraid? or was it because they simply didint want to... either way, they were wrong...

They were wrong when it came to all of that technology stuff! They were wrong when it came to all of that medicine stuff! And i know that they are also and will be wrong about all of this "paranatural" stuff as you guys call it!

many of you are'nt used to seeing stuff that isint normal... i explained alot about that in my website: my telekinesis website: freewebs.com/tameer
under the (people vs. psychics section) if your very much into the eyes of the western world then i recomend you check it out!

.......*sigh*.......

This was a bit over a decade ago, when I was an avid believer and vocal defender of the paranatural realm. The psi-wheel was no challenge to me. I could make that baby spin, stop, and even flip completely off the head of the pin on demand. I was all set to be the one who brough the field of paranormal study the respectability it deserved.

So I went to my physics professor and made my pitch. A self-study program, dedicated to the investigation of several different phenomena of paranatural nature. When he asked who my test subject would be, I proudly declared "Myself." At his raised eyebrow, I explained my powers.

He looked at me quietly for a little while. Then he spoke.

"You got your ID card on you?"

A little confused, I handed it over, he took it and stared intently at my picture. I watched, a little uncomfortably.

With a flip of his wrists, he sent the card spinning in mid-air. My ID card, which only seconds before had been secured in my pocket, was now hovering as it spun around itself, about six inches below both his hands. I watched in amazement as he guided the card through the air with the merest motion of his hand, first waving it around his right hand, then sending it flying to his left hand, all the while never touching, never getting within six inches of the hovering card. He even sat quietly as he sent the card a full 180 degrees around his back, only to catch it as it passed around to his front again. He handed it back to me.

"That was incredible." I couldn't think of any other way to describe it. I was in awe. Here I was all happy because I could spin a little piece of paper, and this guy was turning my ID card into a remote control UFO.

"That...was science." He replied simply. He then sat me down and explained exatcly how I was to go about setting up an experiment.

It was all about stripping away the variables. I made a list of all the possible causes that could be responsible for moving the paper: Air, heat, vibrations, sunlight, anything that i could think of. Slowly, I designed tests for all of them. I created a wind barrier by placing my psi wheel in a plastic plate with a small sheet of water, so that when I placed a large tumbler over it, the edge was submerged. The water also acted as a heat sink, removing another variable. I also did the tests in a darkened room. I even went as far as placing everything one a four inch foam pad that I secured.

Slowly but surely, all the variables were stripped away. And slowly, but surely, the wheel stopped turning, till finally, when I had a psiwheel that was shielded from the wind, heat, sunlight, and vibrations, would turn at all. Not from me, anyway. It still occasionally turned, but the duplicate that I had as a control turned as well, without the benifit of my focus on it.

I repeated tests such as these all summer. I learned more and more about methodology and research, as well as statistics and numbers, and finally realized, as I re-read all my original books and sources, that the science behind them was lacking. Things that i had ferverently believed in before now had glaring inconsistencies that I had never been aware of. Slowly, I realized that I had been deceiving myself all those years, searching for something that was greater than anyone else had, convinced that there had to be something more to this mundane world than what I saw.

And there is. And it is science. 11 dimensions. Infinite universes. Worlds within worlds within worlds. I still miss believing in the paranatural. If someone was able to spin the psiwheel after having eliminated the variables and set a control, then I would feel my interest rekindled. But, after ten years of searching, I have seen nothing more than the same claim cropping up time and time again. One gets discouraged. I still have hope that proof will be found. But I will forever be a skeptic.

And if anyone comes to me and claims they have power to spin a wheel, I will simply smile, and ask for their ID card. It is, after all, science.

Would this Randi guy find someway to prove that you're a fake even if you tell him that he can choose whatever place he wants to, whatever time and perform Telekinesis infront of him, lets say levitate a rock, and try to make you out as some cheap skate???

If so many people have been claming to be capable of a certain decree of power wouldn't some scientist get interested eventually and try to prove them right.

So far all i have been able to figure out is that scientists who don't believe are the only ones who have been trying to do the proving, i'm damn sure that some expert qualified person would want to get really involved in this subject and do their best to find out about it.

Firstly the last I heard about it was that Randi has completely removed himself from the testing process, so people couldn't use him as an excuse for failure.
You would tell them what you can do and how and his testing panel would work something out with you to remove all variables that might be trickery. It's a completely scientific process and still none have passed muster.
Although many of those tested have cried foul and whined intensely about their failure to pass; upon further investigations they've all been proven frauds. Either deliberately or through self delusion..
As to your second post. It doesn't matter if the scientists doing testing on psychic abilities believe in them or don't. The scientific method exists to weed out personal beliefs from the experiment at hand. If the studies so far have shown up inconclusive or false that should tell you something..

Why don't the experts have a television show or write a book to make people shut the fact that they can do stuff. Surely they would have been extremely annoyed at how many paople have shown up only top be proved or prove themselves wrong.

Can anyone explain the clasic psi ball away. If so let me no.

People do try. But few want to hear it. Even I have to admit that it's much more fun to believe in wondrous abilities; but sadly the evidence given so far doesn't seem to support it..
Besides that; despite what you hear; many scientists have a genuine interest in these kinds of things, and actually want to investigate them. So why discourage potential test subjects. If they're false, the data will show it. And up to this point it has..

If the evidence so far proves wrong how come people are experiencing all the side effects of making a psi ball. Read the Psi ball guide and see what i mean

As for Psi-Balls. Do you know the term, Psychosomatic? I can make my hands feel all tingly right now by concentrating on them and convincing myself I've formed an energy ball. Does that mean there's actually something there?
Unless it actually does something physical it's safe to assume what you have may well be nothing more than a physical sensation induced by your mind..
The same way hypochondriacs feel phantom pains and illnesses..

Sounds like nothing more than a vivid imagination. When I was a little Snuffs, I imagined there were little green men who'd come into my room every night, and I could kill them by blinking my eyes really fast. Where they really there? Of course not, but my imagination was so overactive that I convinced myself that they were real. This is what these psi-balls remind me of.

mainly why its good to try psi with a partner .

i'd like to see some kind of proof(i.e. your teachers report, or other such documents), like the title says "Prove it!"
till then im just gonna sit here and hold my breath

Janiel, don't hold your breath mate, it's hard to prove something that doesn't exist, as has been demostrated here.

Jan?...Jan!?...I think he passed out! Get some cold water, quick!

okay well then it seems as if nobody understood anything in my recent post. Even though thats the most i could possibly have cared for trying to put you guys to your senses. as it may seem, psi esp all of such do not exist, then one day it will be you guys who will know the truth of psychic phenomenon. Because i already do.

And you may well be right. But we are not talking about technological predictions here. Claiming that our technological progress is an indicator of our imminent discovery of paranatural phenomena is a disastrous turn of logic. Why not the imminent discovery of the Greek pantheon of Gods instead? Why should it be paranatural phenomena?

Devices already exists that allow us to study the human mind, the decades old fallacy that we only use 10% of the mind has never been true, and with today's technology, neurology can answer almost any question on the working of the mind you would care to ask.

Again, subjective opinion will never be considered evidence. Evidence which you presented as proof positive was claimed by the presenters themselves not to be considered proof at all. You want to proclaim the "Truth" of your word? Go right ahead. But don't expect others not to point out the incredible lapses of logic in your arguments. It is all about credibility, and you have shown nothing that would lead a person to believe you are an authority in this matter.

HHmmm, but is a cynical little cabal, ready to pounce on anyone who doesn't speak the party mantra any better than hysterical fourteen year olds proclaiming outrageous psychic talents. I don't think either side serves the purposes of a forum to discuss things weird and paranormal. The a priori dismissal I've read several times here that such things don't exist proves each case is already prejudged as worthless and not to be taken seriously but something has not been proven is not the same as something can't be proven because it doesn't exist. That's not a true sense of enquiry scientific or otherwise. My experience on other boards and some of the so called skeptics there is that they came to veiw such places as no better than some on line Bedlam where they could come and make fun of the fools and idiots. Fine if you create your own sight for the purpose, dissapointing if you need to hijack another and create a culture of inhibition. I hope that doesn't happen here because within a short time no ones going to bother posting anything of interest and you can all sit around congratulating yourselves on banishing the darkness of superstition, within another month you'll be bored titless.

On the other side of the coin people who make claims of being able to astral project or induce OOBEs to order really do have to put their money where there mouth is when challenged and not become petulant or defensive when proof is asked for, you're only setting yourself up for a fall, having said that anyone who wishes to try is welcome to visit here and tell me three items that are sitting on my shelf unit in the lounge. For myself the one OOBE that has intrigued me so far is from the poster who experienced them spontaneously in childhood and has been unable to replicate them since, from reading the post it obviously had a profound effect on them and even if examined and speculated on retrospectively is far more of an improvement on the can/cant back and forth arguments.

On the contrary, I hardly think I'm sinister or ready to pounce. I have a genuine curiosity about all this, but so far any serious inquiry into it has yielded nothing but anger, arm-waving, and outright refusal to answer..
I don't think asking for at least a willingness to try and show proof is so much. Until we've heard from someone who's willing to discuss these matters rationally, what can we do besides butt heads constantly?