I'm thinking humans in general...they can tweek your memory to create missing time, at least i've heard of.

This is quite possible but I dont know if this could be done in mass scale, If so boy they would be sure really advanced.

//////////////////////////
Sorry Guys! I'm gonna pass on this one!!!

Sheesh!

HOWEVER! The point of the subject starting this whole thread -- I bid my KUDOS as it seemed to open and scatter from a literal Pandora's Box of potpourri nonsense taken with "tongue in cheek"!

By the by -- I long ago threw my "brick" into the Puerto Rican Trench, along with my marriage license as BOTH being a lost cause (back in '87).

I CANNOT blame aliens for this -- just ..... irreconcilable CHAOS!!

From Gryph's Lair

hey gryghon good to see you back

Aliens....Demons.....

Aliens can't posses bodies like Demons..

Demons can't ride UFO's like Aliens..

nope

////////////////////////
PLEASE be very careful and OBJECTIVE about this and ask yourself WHY you were given this message.

The Age of the "Contactees" has come and gone and we KNOW a lot of this was disinformation and media claptrap to deter SERIOUS research.

I am very wary of those who say: "God told me ....." -- because I would ask them: "TO DO WHAT?" and "WHY?".

I remain OBJECTIVE in respect to your posting -- but I am also very CAUTIOUS that there are some serious things missing from its intent.

There are some things considered VERY SERIOUS in this world of UNKNOWNS -- and the LAST thing we need is more chaotic confusion disuading us from a path we wish to take to know the REAL TRUTH!

I grow very weary of "traps" to take us from this very path.

From the Gryphon's Lair

If you are going to discuss a christian concept like demons, you have to take into account that in the first days, demons did infact walk the earth, with bodies. They were the Nephilum, The Giants, the "Heros of old". And they interbread with humamity to the point that God destroyed the polluted genepool with a flood, and kept only one pure lineage: Noah.

It makes sense that demonic forces have interaction with the physical, and could very well be the pilots of the UFO's we see. Perhaps the Nephilum (The DNA of which was unfortunately preserved in the polluted gene of Noah's wives and his sone's wives) advanced much faster than us because of their divine knowledge and left earth. Or perhaps, when God said he cast the fallen ones out of the upper reaches of heaven, they were cast into the reaches of space.

Well stated!

wow....so god visited you eh? what did he look like?

No, God didn't create evil, lucifer did with his rebellion. Evil was born that day.

How do you know it wasn't real?

God gave us free will to choose Him and when the fallen angels rebelled, they created evil. Period, then they influenced mankind to choose evil.

In christianity, God created lucifer... and as you people keep preaching, God knows everything, past, present and future, so God created lucifer knowing full well that lucifer would become evil...



If god truely knows everything, past present and future, then there is no freewill. He would have created us knowing full well what choices in life we would have made. To us, thered only be an illusion of free will, but to god, he would have created us knowing that some of us would be christian, and some not.

[quote=Hailo_hellFIRE,Dec 3 2004, 12:33 AM]
Aliens....Demons.....

Aliens can't posses bodies like Demons..


LOL! Ever heard of implants?



Demons can't ride UFO's like Aliens..

nope


LOL! What do you think lives inside those cloned bodies of the greys? They have no reproduction organs and they are all clones, that's why they all look alike. Except there's only so many times you can keep making a clone of a clone which is why they are so frail and they are seeking human DNA.

Exactly!! Plus I find it suspicious that the greys have no reproduction organs and "reproduce" by cloning. And they all look alike, like cookies from a cookie cutter.

If god truely knows everything, past present and future, then there is no freewill. He would have created us knowing full well what choices in life we would have made. To us, thered only be an illusion of free will, but to god, he would have created us knowing that some of us would be christian, and some not.

This sounds locical, but isn't. God sets limitation for himself. He is all knowing, and all present, but he refuses to interfere with out descisions. Sure, he already knows what they will be, but they are ours to make, and he cannot affect them. This is why he crated the human mind with the ability to not believe in him.

How can you say what God sees having no knowledge of the Living God? You knowledge only come from your imagination of what he might be.

In christianity, God created lucifer... and as you people keep preaching, God knows everything, past, present and future, so God created lucifer knowing full well that lucifer would become evil...

Go created Lucifer as an arch angel. He was beatiful, and second in power only to god. At the time of this creation, there was no rebelion against god. When Lucifer fell, Lucifer created a rebellion against god. Did god know this would happen? Yes. But he wanted lucifer to be something more than a robot. He was a worshipper. And a true worshipper cannot worship if he is bound to do so.

You see, God would never create an instant rebellion against himself. What he would create, hoewever, is a being with an image of self. That being, with an image of self, has a certain level of creativity it's self.

Yup, it was all a means to an end. God wanted to create higher living beings with free will to choose to serve Him because they want to, not because they are like robots and have no choice. He knew going in that that free choice would mean someone would choose rebellion or evil. That goes along with free choice. Lucifer rebelled and created evil, God allowed it because it goes along with free choice. God allows humanity to freely choose Him or to choose evil. Once the choosing has been done, what is God left with? A group of higher beings who chose Him and freely serve Him because they want to. Those who choose evil go with their god that made evil, lucifer. God knew that when He created angels and humans with a free will to choose Him, that that free will could lead to some not choosing Him, and lead to evil. When it's all over and the dust is cleared, God will have a loyal loving group of beings who worship Him because they want to, not because they are robots, then God will do away with evil forever, once the choice has been made.

Yes, but, dont you see? If he sees the future, wouldnt he know how we'll end up? He cant create a race which will suprise him, can he?



I've got a friend who talks to the christian god. I have another who talks to the muslim god. I have friends who talk to the pagan gods. They all say their god told them they're right and the others are hallucinating



Yes, and you're more qualified to talk about him because he's a close personal friend of yours. Hell, you guys go to bars together on friday nights dont you?



So instead of creating him so that he wont turn against god, he created him so that he would turn against god.



And a true worshipper cannot worship if he is made not to...



Hey, I've got a question, and I'm curious what your answer will be. Can god do everything?

[quote=Stellar,Dec 4 2004, 06:20 PM]
[quote]
If god truely knows everything, past present and future, then there is no freewill. He would have created us knowing full well what choices in life we would have made. To us, thered only be an illusion of free will, but to god, he would have created us knowing that some of us would be christian, and some not.
[right][snapback]385983[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


There is free will, if not, we'd all serve God right now, mindlessly and without thinking about it, it would just be an automatic response. We would know no other way. How can you argue there is no free will when you are exercising your free will now by choosing not to serve God. LOL! The mere fact that you are questioning free will proves that there is free will!

No, we could also all not believe in god, or we could have fractions of the population believing in the christian god, others another god, and others no god. If you're to take christianity as true, then when god was creating humanity, he knew exactly who would become christian, and who wouldnt. He created us so that you would end up christian, and I would end up an atheist, and so on.

It all comes down to this... If god can see the future, then that means the future is set in stone, and no one can change it, hence, there is no free will. He "programmed" us to make certain decisions... only not all the same.



No, because if I'm to believe that the christian god exists, he made me, and he knew that I would end up not believing in him, hence, he created me an atheist. That destiny was fixed for me, and freewill is only an illusion for me.

You seem to get confused about what free will is. Not having free will does not mean that we would all believe in your god...

It all comes down to this... If god can see the future, then that means the future is set in stone, and no one can change it, hence, there is no free will. He "programmed" us to make certain decisions... only not all the same.

Sure, the future is set in stone from GODS eyes. But noit from mans. Remember that man exists on a forward time line. God exists on no time line.



No, because if I'm to believe that the christian god exists, he made me, and he knew that I would end up not believing in him, hence, he created me an atheist. That destiny was fixed for me, and freewill is only an illusion for me.

So, the instant you were born, you were an Atheist, even before you were toilet trained? What if you had been born into a christian family? God doesn't control every aspect of our world. He observes it. He set it into motion. And it is only your own mind that fixes your destiny. God gives you the chance at this very moment to turn to him. If you don't, that is the choice of your own free will. I made the choice of going from being a drug addict to serving Him. For me, I used to think he created me a drug addict. But it was my own folley that created my habbits. When I turned to him, he set me free.

You seem to get confused about what free will is. Not having free will does not mean that we would all believe in your god...

It would only mean one of two things: Everyone would believe in him. Or, No one would believe in him.

[quote=Stellar,Dec 4 2004, 07:08 PM]
Yes, but, dont you see? If he sees the future, wouldnt he know how we'll end up? He cant create a race which will suprise him, can he?



Exactly, nothing surprises Him.




I've got a friend who talks to the christian god. I have another who talks to the muslim god. I have friends who talk to the pagan gods. They all say their god told them they're right and the others are hallucinating


LOL! I have no doubt that they are all right! If you seek God He will talk to you, if you seek demons they will talk to you too, and of course the demons will claim they are right and all others are wrong or hallucinating!! LOL!




So instead of creating him so that he wont turn against god, he created him so that he would turn against god.


No, God created him with the ability to choose to serve God or not. If God had made him so that he won't turn against God, had made him only to serve God, lucifer would not have had free will.



And a true worshipper cannot worship if he is made not to...


Which is why we all have free will.





Hey, I've got a question, and I'm curious what your answer will be. Can god do everything?



The question is not can He but will He? God can do everything except those things He willingly limits Himself from doing. He can make Himself forget things, like forgetting our sins for those who repented for example. God does not look upon evil, not because He can't, but because He doesn't want to.

Thank you, you just proved my point. Free will is therefor an illusion... we think we have free will, but we dont.



I was born into a christian family. I was christian, but now am atheist. The thing is, since god knows everything, he knew that I would be born to this family and that I would become an atheist.



Impossible. If god knows everything, then he knows how the world would be at each instant, and he knows the destinies of every one of us. We only believe we make out own destiny... but god would have created us and knew exactly how we'd turn out, and our destiny.



But he knows that I either will or wont. I dont, because as I was saying, freewill is therefor an illusion... but god knows. If god knows I'm gonna turn christian tommorow, then theres no way I will remain an atheist or become a member of any other religion. Unless... did god make a mistake? Is he hallucinating?



And if god knows everything, then he knew when he created humanity, that when it comes down to you, you will be a drug addict and end up serving him and think that he set you free. To you, you think it was your own choice, and theres the aspect of the free will illusion...



No, you're generalising. Theres no such thing as a collective free will. It would be down to the individual. The individual would either believe him, or wont... so the large scale gets another option: Everyone would believe in him. No one would belive in him. Or, some would believe in him.



Exactly, therefor he knew exactly how his creation would end up, right?



So you're saying that Allah is a true god too?



And god, knowing everything, would know if he would end up serving god or not. Right?



If we all have free will, then god either doesnt exist, or god doesnt know our future.



No... my question is very much can he. So. Can he?



Is that your final answer?

[quote=Stellar,Dec 4 2004, 07:13 PM]
[quote]
No, we could also all not believe in god, or we could have fractions of the population believing in the christian god, others another god, and others no god. If you're to take christianity as true, then when god was creating humanity, he knew exactly who would become christian, and who wouldnt. He created us so that you would end up christian, and I would end up an atheist, and so on.


No, that's not true. You're thinking about it as fi God has the limited mind of the human. A human could not unbiasely create beings with a free will while at the same time knowing exactly who would serve him and who wouldn't. God doesn't have a human mind. How do you know God didn't voluntarily make Himself forget what He knew all of us the fallen angels and humans would do at the moment He created us? While at the same time way in the back of His infinate mind He knew full well what the total outcome of this all would be? Having full knowlege of what we would all do and at the same time creating us without the conscious knowlege and creating us all unbiasedly? You don't know what God's mind can do. God's mind is not limited to human logic.



It all comes down to this... If god can see the future, then that means the future is set in stone, and no one can change it, hence, there is no free will. He "programmed" us to make certain decisions... only not all the same.


No, no that's not true. The past present and future are not set in stone. He didn't program any of us to do anything.


No, because if I'm to believe that the christian god exists, he made me, and he knew that I would end up not believing in him, hence, he created me an atheist. That destiny was fixed for me, and freewill is only an illusion for me.


No, no not true. You are basing God's intentions and ability according to a human mind's ability God is not human and doesn't have a human mind. He could know everything and at the same time know nothing by temporarily forgetting. You don't know what God's mind can do.

You can't apply a human form of logic and reasoning to a mind of God the creater. Just because it makes sense to you is because if we were talking about a human mind a human would not be capable of creating people with a free will at the same time knowing all they will ever do, but God doesn't have a human mind.

Oh, yes, cuz... we all know the human mind is capable of such extreemly complicated calculations and is capable of seeing into the future.

Hell, we're not even talking about gods mind now, we're talking about whether god knows everything, or he doesnt. If he knows everything, then theres no freewill.



Are you equating God to a human now?



I know that. We're not even talking about his mind.



So you're saying that God doesnt know everything... at least not any more...?



So he's schitzophrenic?



Then how are you qualified to tell me what your god is like?



Then he doesnt know everything, nor CAN he know everything.



No, I'm not. As I mentioned above, humans are not capable of seeing the future...



Above you just said that the future is not set in stone, so therefor god cant know everything.

AND

So how can you talk to me about god? How can you now tell me that god is loving and caring, and not lying?

EDIT: Thought this was something I wrote, but it seems you just forgot to color it blue:



Im not arguing with you about that. Infact, you just said that God doesnt have a human mind, so he's capable of far more than us mere humans... I never argued against that...

[quote=Stellar,Dec 4 2004, 07:37 PM]
[quote]
[quote]LOL! I have no doubt that they are all right! If you seek God He will talk to you, if you seek demons they will talk to you too, and of course the demons will claim they are right and all others are wrong or hallucinating!! LOL!
[/quote]

So you're saying that Allah is a true god too?


Yes, I'm saying he is a god, but not the God. The fallen angels were gods. The first commandment says "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me."



[quote]No, God created him with the ability to choose to serve God or not. [/quote]

And god, knowing everything, would know if he would end up serving god or not. Right?


He knew lucifer would fall, yes.




If we all have free will, then god either doesnt exist, or god doesnt know our future.


Why would you say that? You are thinking as if God has the limited ability that the human mind has. You can't apply human logic to God's mind because God's mind is way infinately beyond our scope of understanding. You are applying these logical linears strings of thinking as if God is playing this all with the limited mind of a human. God sees and knows things we probably won't know till we die and yet these things factor into the equasion of what and why He does what He does, yet you are trying to define God's mind according to our knowlege and reasoning.



Is that your final answer?



God can do everything except what He willingly limits Himself from doing.

And what if those people said that Allah told them that he was the true god, and your god was just a liar?



So he knew lucifer would become evil, right?



As I have so numerously mentioned, a human is not capable of what I just said god could be able to do.

If the future is set in stone, and he knows the future, then he knows exactly what the future for us will be, therefor he didnt create us free, he created us with the illusion of freewill, but theres no way we can truely decide for ourselves because he made us to decide a certain way.



What he willingly limits himself from doing is not a factor here. If he didnt limit himself from doing anything, could he do everything?

hey INSIGHT....your avatar shows that you are against symbols of the fascit scenario...do you have insight of the future freedom?....what is it?

If your god created evil then it is also good because he creates only good....even if it is a lesson...


If God created man to follow demons, then in gods eyes demons are also good right?

But I don't see good and evil. I see the one creator learning from his created mistakes and evolving to new creations....

And I am an atheist heretic.

[quote=Stellar,Dec 4 2004, 07:55 PM]
[quote]No, that's not true. You're thinking about it as fi God has the limited mind of the human.
[/quote]

Oh, yes, cuz... we all know the human mind is capable of such extreemly complicated calculations and is capable of seeing into the future.

Hell, we're not even talking about gods mind now, we're talking about whether god knows everything, or he doesnt. If he knows everything, then theres no freewill.


You are coming up with your conclusions based on the human mind. You are saying if God knows everything and can do everything, then when He created mankind He couldn't have given us free will because you know the human mind cannot create something with full knowlege of what the things will do and still give it a free will. Since God can do everything then He is capapble of knowiing everything we will do and still creating us with free will and not predisposed to do what He knows we will do.






[quote]A human could not unbiasely create beings with a free will while at the same time knowing exactly who would serve him and who wouldn't.
[/quote]

Are you equating God to a human now?


No, you are, whether you are aware of it or not. You are limiting what God can do based on how you know the human mind works. You're thinking of how it would be if a human knew the past present & future before creating humanity and how a human would unconsciously create the person predisposed to do what we already know they will do. God is capable of knowing all and still creating us without any leanings towards the choices we will make.


I know that. We're not even talking about his mind.


You are not talking about His mind but you don't realize that you are judging His actions and abilities as if He had a human mind. Like saying we can't have free will if God knows all. Why do you come to that conclusion? Because you know that with humans it's impossible to create humans without a predisposition towards the choices you know they will make. That's how you come to that conclusion. Based on how you know the human mind operates.




[quote]How do you know God didn't voluntarily make Himself forget what He knew all of us the fallen angels and humans would do at the moment He created us?
[/quote]

So you're saying that God doesnt know everything... at least not any more...?


He always does know everything, even when you forget you know, it's just in a different part of your brain but it's still assesable like through hypnosis or something in humans. Of course God doesn't have to hypnotise Himself to remember something.




[quote]While at the same time way in the back of His infinate mind He knew full well what the total outcome of this all would be?
[/quote]

So he's schitzophrenic?


No, there's the Godhead you're forgetting about.



Then how are you qualified to tell me what your god is like?


I'm not telling you how His mind works, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't work like a human mind and giving examples of it. I'm not saying this is how it is, I'm saying how do you know it's not like this?




[quote]No, no that's not true. The past present and future are not set in stone.  He didn't program any of us to do anything.
[/quote]

Then he doesnt know everything, nor CAN he know everything.


See there you go thinking His mind is like a human mind again! You can't imagine knowing what isn't set in stone so you figure God can't either. Not set in stone refers to different deminsions which represents possible choices. God can see and know every single scenerio for every choice possible & imaginable, therefore no matter what you choose, He has seen it and knows it, yet you still have freedom to choose out of the numerous choices possible.




[quote]You are basing God's intentions and ability according to a human mind's ability
[/quote]

No, I'm not. As I mentioned above, humans are not capable of seeing the future...


Right, but you are determining God's ability based upon how you think it will be if a human knew the future.




[quote]He could know everything and at the same time know nothing by temporarily forgetting. You don't know what God's mind can do.
[/quote]

Above you just said that the future is not set in stone, so therefor god cant know everything.


Yes He can, where every choice possible represents a different dimension and God sees and has seen every deminsion for every possible choice of actions a person can take, then no matter what you choose to do, God has seen it, the whole scenerio. And you still have free choice to choose whichever.




AND

So how can you talk to me about god? How can you now tell me that god is loving and caring, and not lying?


What?? LOL!




EDIT: Thought this was something I wrote, but it seems you just forgot to color it blue:

[quote]You can't apply a human form of logic and reasoning to a mind of God the creater. Just because it makes sense to you is because if we were talking about a human mind a human would not be capable of creating people with a free will at the same time knowing all they will ever do, but God doesn't have a human mind.
[/quote]

Im not arguing with you about that. Infact, you just said that God doesnt have a human mind, so he's capable of far more than us mere humans... I never argued against that...



You don't realize that you are assigning human shortcomings to God's mind and actions when you try to say free will can't exist if He knows everything and stuff like that.

[quote=Stellar,Dec 4 2004, 08:02 PM]
[quote]Yes, I'm saying he is a god, but not the God.
[/quote]

And what if those people said that Allah told them that he was the true god, and your god was just a liar?


God proves Himself to those who truely seek Him.




[quote]He knew lucifer would fall, yes.
[/quote]

So he knew lucifer would become evil, right?


Yes, that's what free choice is.




[quote]Why would you say that? You are thinking as if God has the limited ability that the human mind has.
[/quote]

As I have so numerously mentioned, a human is not capable of what I just said god could be able to do.

If the future is set in stone, and he knows the future, then he knows exactly what the future for us will be, therefor he didnt create us free, he created us with the illusion of freewill, but theres no way we can truely decide for ourselves because he made us to decide a certain way.


No, not at all. We have free will because God knows exactly what the future will be because He knows the outcome of every choice possible, He has seen it all, so no matter which one we choose, He has seen it, and yet we still have the choice.




[quote]God can do everything except what He willingly limits Himself from doing.
[/quote]

What he willingly limits himself from doing is not a factor here. If he didnt limit himself from doing anything, could he do everything?


Yes He can.

I'm not basing anything on the human mind. I'm basing it on what people say God can do. (everything)



You're not understanding what Im saying. The human mind not creating something with full knowledge of what the things will do and still give it free will is not a factor at all.

Theres 2 different things here that I'm arguing actually. 1. If god can see our future, then that means that the future cannot be changed, hence, we have no free will. We cannot change it.
2. If god only calculates the future (think of a programmer reading his code and figuring out what it'll do) then he does not truely see into the future.... he only calculates it. This would mean that god cant do everything, because he cant see into the future. He would, however, still know what his creation would do, and unless he doesnt have an infinite mind like you say he does, he would be able to know what we'd do just the same as seeing into our future, hence, he created us to suit him.



If he is capable of knowing everything, then he created us knowing how we'd turn up... hence he wanted the world to be the way it is. So, in essence, he created humanity just to destroy it at various parts in our past. Hmm...

Oh, and about your "he can do everything so he can know everything and give us free will"...
Can god create a mountain that he cant lift?



Lets try a new approach... Arent you doing the same? Not only do you believe god can do everything, you believe in a book that was written by humans...



Can god create a mountain he cant lift?



No, thats nothing like what I'm saying. Jeez. Im getting tired of repeating myself. If the future is set in stone, then theres no free will, because we're bound to the decisions we're going to make. We cant decide to make a different decision. Impossible. We have to make a certain one.



So what you mean to tell me is like this. I know 1+1 is 2. When I see a math problem asking what 1+1 is, I dont need to go back in my memory and remember how I did it in the 1st grade... because I know 1+1 is 2.



Godhead?



You're telling me he can do everything. If you say that what I say is erroneous because I dont know how gods mind works, then you are erroneous in saying that he knows and can do all, because you dont know how gods mind works neither.



See, there you go with your signature responce because you dont know what else to say.



But since the future is set in stone, it is "written" that you will make a certain choice. You cannot change that. Hence, freewill does not exist. We only suffer from the illusion of freewill.



In that case, I'm still right, cuz god doesnt know which choice you're gonna make, and therefor he can only make calculations and not see the future.



What about it? You dont know how gods mind works, so how do you know he is loving and carying and not just lying to you?



They said they truely sought him. I guess they've just proved your religion wrong and theirs right? I mean... whenever I've heard a christian with a "vision" from god in one of their dreams, the come here and say its proof that their god is right and all the other ones are wrong...



Nope, because he knew his creation would become evil, and he still created it, so not only did he willingly create lucifer to decide to oppose him, he created evil willingly. And it is not free choice, since it was already "written" that lucifer was going to oppose him.



Thats not seeing the future. Seeing the future would be knowing exactly which choices we'd make. Hell, predicting the future without error would let him know exactly which choice everyone takes. If this is all he can do, then he cant do everything.



So, my question stands... Can god create a mountain so heavy that he cant lift?

Oh such innocence...that expresses the maggot giant comparrison between human and godly mind.

Stellar,
First and foremost, this is not an attack, only a theory on how the Almighty would "see" the future based on modern known physics. I'm sure everyone is familiar with the theory of a butterfly flapping its wings on one side of the earth can cause a tsunami on the other side after a series of chain reactions. If this theory is true, then the Almighty knowing all current knowledge, would be able to predict the future by figuring out all the "if this then this" scenarios. Only just a theory though.

I'm anxiously awaiting your replies.

The only other possibility I can come up with is that being the master of all, time would not even be a considerable obstacle, even though time is relative. It would be something we probably couldn't conceive if this theory is true.

Ive already accounted for that. If he's able to figure out what we'll do, but cant, in essence, see the future, then that means not only that he cant do everything, it means that he's subject to time just as we are. Anyway, if he calculates the future, then he still knows everything that is going to happen, and thus he made us to be the way we are. He made me to be an atheist, and others to be religious... And he's expecting us to suprise him?

God wants you to think of gnomes, and how they add sparkle and jive to our dreary lives.

Snuffs!

Free will stellar FREE WILL . You seal your own fate and thats final. Like I have said in other threads The story is written from start to finish and its your free will that will decide what side you land on, plain and simple. You are merly a pawn in a grand game for the peices and them peices are you. our ego wants us to be the reason for it all but it is not all about us we are just a part of the whole. The fight is between good and evil Good kicked out evil and evil got mad and wanted revenge and so took it out on something good liked and loved to pay good back for getting kicked out. so the one causing all this evil here is not good but the evil one thats pissed at the good one . All that evil does is just that evil ,hate anger jelousy greed murder ect. and good is all the opposite, it so plain to see. Think for a sec, what good comes out of hate or greed or any of the bad things I wrote? and what evil comes out of something good. The bible has taken the heat for how people have read it from the start, The bible hasn't changed but the people that read it has and so have there ideas. so in other works don't be mad at the game be mad at the players , The games still the same its just the players that have changed right.This is god speaking" So all you kids get along on both side or I'll turn off the switch and you'll all have to get out of the pool" hehehehe. peace all lol.

I agree...Those who really want to do instead of talk about it will know that you don't need to be a hindu or buddhist but you can prepare yourself by actually doing the learning they have preservesd for the ones who have chosen themselves to put mind in sync with your god...i.e. erasing the emotional weaknesses and fears and aversions and desires and tuning mind and body for the tommorow...do you think your god left you without excersises to cleanse you from this society or your personal evil...do this if you know...then you will need no book to tell you right from wrong or what you should or should not do....you will know...is that not the same as being with god???????

Perhaps not but at least it is on the path without human concepts or words to slow you down...

Yes I do seal my own fate... because, if god exists... I'm forced to. He made me seal this fate. By creating me, he chose for me which fate I'd seal.

I like it , But its better to have lived then to have never lived at all. Oh and how is it that the children tell the parents what to do? Many houses that children live in has rules,and in them houses there are children that dont listen to the rules and are kick out. When they have learned to listen to the rules there parents welcome them home with open arms. The rules are not always there for the kid to know but it is there to help them grow up to be a better human and when that child grows up they to learn the rules and pass them on to there chilldren. All parents should love there children but sadly this is not true and cause of that we have children that grow not knowing these rules or love. This is no fault of there own but they suffer for it. GOD is love and all things that are love is of GOD. Evil is hate and all things that are hate is of evil. The things in your heart and how you choose to unleash it on to the world is your free will.The rest is just us/yourself fooling yourself. Good is good and bad is bad it cant be both and if you try to make one the other you are chasing your tail around a tree. peace to you all and keep an open mind. One more thing, How can you hurt someone you love with out having a bad/evil thought first.

Im not saying otherwise. I'm saying that if the christian god exists, and is what he is claimed to be, then I have no free will.



Yes well... I guess thats fair. The parent telling his child to, lets say, go outside in the dark... and then punishing him for doing just that.



Hmm... so god does have bad/evil thoughts...

I dont see how you get to the conclusion that GOD has a evil side. No where in the bible does it say you have no free will. To the statement "
Yes well... I guess thats fair. The parent telling his child to, lets say, go outside in the dark... and then punishing him for doing just that." If your talking about a human parent then any parent that tells there child to go into the dark is doing evil or just ignorant and may not be doing it from a loving place and if your talking about GOD then God dont tell you to do evil. I don't think you understand what I am saying about the free will thing. The bible and its agenda is doing what it will do regaurdless if you/we do, The part thats important to use is on what side you want to be hence the free will thing again. Its your free will to believe or not believe and its also you free will to do good or bad and in the end its you that seals your own fate. because you didn't belive doesn't change a thing or drain GOD's power it just drains yours as an human. Dont get me wrong ,ok I see the world religions take and abuse this belief system for there personal gains at the cost of many turning away from something that would improve there lifes. That being said, this doesn't take anything away from GOD or make GOD wrong or evil it just makes humans less then for not having GOD in there life. I have asked tons of people why they dont belive in GOD and I see that alot of people don't belive or have turned away because of not what was in the book but because of what people have taught them about the book, just like you have said "Im not saying otherwise. I'm saying that if the christian god exists, and is what he is claimed to be, then I have no free will." and with that there is no where in the bible that says you don't have that "free will" and so there is where the problem is. The misunderstanding of what its all about.

perhaps free will led him to this belief ?

Gee...I do consider flooding the earth and killing all those people to be god hurting them...



No it doesnt. Btw, does it say somewhere in the bible that god can do *everything*?



Aside from the numerous claims of god telling someone to kill their sister or someone else... Yes god is telling me to do evil. Whether it is something as simple as not believing, to mass murder, he is making us do it. Why? Because he created us. Since he knows everything, then he knew his creation would commit this murder. Its like me, opening up some programming language and writing down this command: "MoveEntity human,x,y,z+10" and then getting mad because it moved 10 units on the Z axis.

Also, if that human entity was concious, it might believe that it chose to move 10 units on its Z axis... but as you see, it didnt. It was forced to do it.



No, you see, I'm not saying the bible says that we have no free will. What I am doing is like:
If A=B and B=C, then A=C.

Yes I do seal my own fate... because, if god exists... I'm forced to.

Actually, God only created two humans. It was their own descisions to created more through reproduction. God didn't breathe you into being, your parents did.



He made me seal this fate. By creating me, he chose for me which fate I'd seal.

Blaming God for your problems without accounting for Lucifer? By creating you, he chose for you that you would have the ability to choose for yourself. God does not make choices for us. He says he "set the world in motion". He doesn't say "He actively controls every single event in the world". If he did, there would be no pain or suffering.

The logic of saying that in God's action of creating the humans forced you to accept a certain fate is faulty. Even now you have choice over your future. Remember, just because God cans ee the future doesn't mean he controls the future.


Can God microwave a burrito so hot that even he can't eat it? This is a human concept. God is not a human. Asking this question seeks to place human ideas and fetter around God's functionality.

But I guess the short answer is yes, God can limit himself. And because he has infinite wisdom, he could never be caught off guard by any limitation he put on himself.

Oh the issue of floods and fires from the sky, it was the people that was doing evil that was punished and not the righteous as I understand it. Now the killing of people for GOD Im not to sure what to say, I would think it would have to be looked at case by case so... But what ever the reason it was probably a fight between good and evil and the person that did it was just used as a tool to do it. The people that were asked to do something for GOD by GOD had the ability to say no if they'd like but did not and thats why they are mentioned in the bible. They took that free will and did as they where asked. I think all is knowing by GOD and this story is going to be played out the way Gods states. Your destiny is not written in stone and it says so in the bible eg. (para-phased) you where grafted in to the tree as a wild olive branch and can be grafted out and throwing in to the fire so that shows me that you have free will and have the choose to do what is right and wrong.Lets say,If you have kids and have seen them about to do something wrong you know what will come of this wrong and how they will be hurt by it. You can teach them and warn them but you can't stop them from doing it. So is that not knowing all but you are giving them the choose to make for themselves?. The problem with the bible is that it is hard to tell if it is being read right because each school of thought has there own ideas on what it means and there lies the problem for believers and nonbelievers the book has been interpreted in so many ways that it has clouded the minds of both believers and the ones that don't. I just think in a nut shell there is something that has started the whole thing and that is the one I call GOD. Something had to create the atom and that thing had to be aware and conscious. We could go around and around and i'm willing to do this but out side of turning this into a bible study group and micro managing this, thats what it will become. Don't get this wrong I'm really enjoying this conversationso lets keep it going if you'd like, opening our minds

Well said Insight, I like it and well put, It is hard to condense all that is to be said in a post that will not tire out the reader or make them not want to read it.

quote=Stellar,Dec 5 2004, 09:04 AM]

Theres 2 different things here that I'm arguing actually. 1. If god can see our future, then that means that the future cannot be changed, hence, we have no free will. We cannot change it.


God has seen into our future and the future can be changed, He can simply see everything we will do/did before the change then what we did/will after the change, He can see every stage, not just the end result like we do, remember there are different dimensions for every choice we make or made. .



2. If god only calculates the future (think of a programmer reading his code and figuring out what it'll do) then he does not truely see into the future.... he only calculates it. This would mean that god cant do everything, because he cant see into the future.


He sees it, He sees all deminsions.




He would, however, still know what his creation would do, and unless he doesnt have an infinite mind like you say he does, he would be able to know what we'd do just the same as seeing into our future, hence, he created us to suit him.


If you mean by setting parameters well, if He didn't there would be chaos! LOL! Of course He created us to suite Him like He did all creation, I mean He didn't create us with natural wings to fly like birds, so if that's creating us to suite Him, then yeah okay. There had to be perameters or there would be chaos, there has to be order.



If he is capable of knowing everything, then he created us knowing how we'd turn up...


He created us knowing how we'd turn up and that's why He already had a plan for our redemption before creating us, before the foundations of the world.



hence he wanted the world to be the way it is.


No, He created us dispite how He knew we would be not because that's how He wanted it. It was something He was willing to put up with as the cost of our having free will.




So, in essence, he created humanity just to destroy it at various parts in our past. Hmm...


No, He created us with a choice knowing that choice would mean some would not choose Him and that most would.



Oh, and about your "he can do everything so he can know everything and give us free will"...
Can god create a mountain that he cant lift?


ROFL!! Silly man! If He wanted to He could. God the Father could create a mountain too heavy for God the Son to lift if He or They chose to. The Godhead can do everything. One part of the Godhead can willingly limit Himself while the other parts of the Godhead may choose not to. He can not have the ability to lift it and can still lift it at the same time. LOL! So stop with those silly questions! LOL!


Lets try a new approach... Arent you doing the same? Not only do you believe god can do everything, you believe in a book that was written by humans...


But inspired by God.



No, thats nothing like what I'm saying. Jeez. Im getting tired of repeating myself. If the future is set in stone, then theres no free will, because we're bound to the decisions we're going to make. We cant decide to make a different decision. Impossible. We have to make a certain one.


I never said the future is set in stone! Why do you make me repeat myself?





Godhead?


Yes, God the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit.


You're telling me he can do everything. If you say that what I say is erroneous because I dont know how gods mind works, then you are erroneous in saying that he knows and can do all, because you dont know how gods mind works neither.


Well I'm going by what God said in His word, you are just going by your guessing.



But since the future is set in stone, it is "written" that you will make a certain choice. You cannot change that. Hence, freewill does not exist. We only suffer from the illusion of freewill.


The future is not set in stone.



In that case, I'm still right, cuz god doesnt know which choice you're gonna make, and therefor he can only make calculations and not see the future.


He does know what choices we will make because He has seen it and it's not written in stone.



What about it? You dont know how gods mind works, so how do you know he is loving and carying and not just lying to you?


I'm going by what He says in His word, where as you are going by your own guesses.



They said they truely sought him. I guess they've just proved your religion wrong and theirs right?


No, maybe they thought they truely sought Him.




Nope, because he knew his creation would become evil, and he still created it, so not only did he willingly create lucifer to decide to oppose him, he created evil willingly.


You're trying to change words to suite you. God created Lucifer with free choice. He did not create him to oppose Him. God did not create evil, lucifer did..



And it is not free choice, since it was already "written" that lucifer was going to oppose him.


It is free choice, God can write about what He knows will/did happen. It doesn't mean choice is not involved. It is written in history books what people did that doesn't measn they didn't freely choose their actions.



Thats not seeing the future. Seeing the future would be knowing exactly which choices we'd make. Hell, predicting the future without error would let him know exactly which choice everyone takes. If this is all he can do, then he cant do everything.


He sees the future, has seen the future, will see the future. Past, present, & future all all the same to Him, He lives outside time.


So, my question stands... Can god create a mountain so heavy that he cant lift?


I already said yes, if He/They choose to.

Exactly! God lives outside time, so He seesthings without time being a factor. He said "I am that I am" It's always the present for Him. Everything we do, did, will do is the present for Him, something our minds cannot comprehend.