LOL!!!!!! Good post!

God didn't make you choose anything. If someone made you choose something it wasn't God.

LOL! Exactly Moe! His own resistence to believe in God proves there's free will.

quote=Stellar,Dec 7 2004, 08:51 PM]

Gee...I do consider flooding the earth and killing all those people to be god hurting them...


No that was God destroying evil, not commiting evil, what He did was an act of love for humanity.



Aside from the numerous claims of god telling someone to kill their sister or someone else... Yes god is telling me to do evil. Whether it is something as simple as not believing, to mass murder, he is making us do it. Why? Because he created us. Since he knows everything, then he knew his creation would commit this murder. Its like me, opening up some programming language and writing down this command: "MoveEntity human,x,y,z+10" and then getting mad because it moved 10 units on the Z axis.


You are worng, your thinking is messed up.


No, you see, I'm not saying the bible says that we have no free will. What I am doing is like:
If A=B and B=C, then A=C.
[right][snapback]391622[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


And your mistake is assuming that A=B in the first place.

Please. If god knows everything, then he knew what the result of his creation would be, he'd know exactly what they'd do, and how they'd do it... He knows that, and he still created Adam and Eve, which indicates that they were created to make the choice to have children, the choice that would eventually lead to my birth.



Not actively. Since he knows everything, he would have known how his creation would turn out, and he still created it knowing full well that he made it so that it would end up the way it is. He may not be playing a part in it any more, but he was in the beginning, if you believe in him and think he can do everything.



It isnt faulty. Right now, I have a choice over my future. Since God can see my future, though, that means that the future is written in stone. I will end up making a certain decision, I cant not make it. Then theres also the fact that since he knows everything, he knows which choices I'll make if he creates the current version of humanity. Im incapable of not making those choices infact, otherwise that'll mean that he made an error.



So, you're admitting he cant do everything? If he created a mountain he cant lift... he cant do something, he cant lift the mountain. If he cant create a mountain he cant lift, then he still cant do something.



So are you implying he cant see which choices we'll make?



Can he see which choices we'll make?



You see... if he knows everything, then he knows what would become of the version of humans he would create. Since he still created us, knowing full well how we'd end up, its like saying "Ok. Go ahead. Be that way."



So... he created humanity to kill humanity?



Thats the exact same thing I said.



So he is incapable of making the perfect world *and* giving us free will? I thought he could do EVERYTHING!



If he created us, he is responsible for the "programming." He not only makes it possible to not choose him, he also makes it so that some of us would not choose him... and then he punishes us for it.



Ahh, so basically, give 2 answers at the same time in an effort not to think about the question? If god can do it, then that means theres a certain weight he cant lift. If god cant do it, then that means he cant do something also.



But written by humans. Humans lie, and humans make mistakes...



If the future is not set in stone, then god cant see the future, he can only calculate it, thus, god cant do everything.



Can you quote a verse where it says god can do everything?



I forget what this was in reference to :S



I am not changing any words, I am meerly pointing out that god cant do everything. If he can do everything, he can see how his creation would turn out once its created (and therefor, if he wants, he can change that creation to avoid what will happen). Since he can do that, he knew that lucifer would oppose him and create evil, and god still created him that way, hence, god knowingly created the creature that created evil. Not only did he create the creature, he, thus, created evil. Where does it say otherwise?



Again, refer to my programming example. Lets say I'm programming a game, and I write down the line "MoveEntity human,0,0,10" which is a command to move the human 10 units along the z axis. Once I start the program, it has no choice, because I created it to do just that.



So that means that its already decided which choices we'd all make!



Then I've proven my point. God *cant* do *everything*



How do you get that kind of explenation from that quote?



He did. Refer to my programming example.



How so? If god exists, that automatically means that if there was no free will, we'd all believe in him?? Its just as easy for god to make it so that no one believes him, or only some believe him, yet there will still be no free will involved!



By killing everything, including the children and babies? Not to mention, he could have destroyed evil without killing everything, since, you know, he's god, and he can supposedly do everything.



Your thinking is messed up. Maybe you should try and put up an argument instead of simply saying "You're wrong! I'm right!"
Least I'm trying to explain my position to you. All you have to add is this crap.



Ahh, so, if A=1, B=1, A does not = B?

Please. If god knows everything, then he knew what the result of his creation would be, he'd know exactly what they'd do, and how they'd do it... He knows that, and he still created Adam and Eve, which indicates that they were created to make the choice to have children, the choice that would eventually lead to my birth.

Yes, he knew the result of his creation. Which meant he knew there would be many many righteous people who love him and were good people. God had a reason for everything. And Yes, God created adam and eve with the ABILITY to chose. But he did not make the choice for them.




Not actively. Since he knows everything, he would have known how his creation would turn out, and he still created it knowing full well that he made it so that it would end up the way it is. He may not be playing a part in it any more, but he was in the beginning, if you believe in him and think he can do everything.

God created the world and man as perfect things. He didn't intend for any of it to become evil or fallen. that was part of Lucifer's plan. Saying God knew what would happen doesn't change this.

It isnt faulty. Right now, I have a choice over my future. Since God can see my future, though, that means that the future is written in stone.

Not at all. Our universe functions on many different levels. Paralell descisions of universes you could say. God has not written our fates in stone. But he does percieve every descision we have the ability to make, and what that descision would lead to. Nothing is written in stone.


I will end up making a certain decision, I cant not make it.

There is absolutely no logic int hat statement.


Then theres also the fact that since he knows everything, he knows which choices I'll make if he creates the current version of humanity. Im incapable of not making those choices infact, otherwise that'll mean that he made an error.

You are beginning to make less and less sense every time you speak. I guess you are looking for anyway you can to discount God, and no longer respond to reason. Oh well. Like I said before, God knows what choices we will make, BUT HE DOES NOT MAKE THEM FOR US! Does that make sense now that we have all said it for the 50th time?


So, you're admitting he cant do everything?

Not at all. He can do everything. Which means in omnipotence, he can limit his power in infinite wisdom. Only a truely omnipotent being could limit himself. And only a truely omnipotent being could revoke those limitations.

If he created a mountain he cant lift... he cant do something, he cant lift the mountain. If he cant create a mountain he cant lift, then he still cant do something.

This statement makes no sense. You obviously totally ignored everything I posted. Oh well.


So are you implying he cant see which choices we'll make?

Nope. he see's our choices. But we choose them. There is a difference between seeing a choice, and choosing a choice.


You see... if he knows everything, then he knows what would become of the version of humans he would create. Since he still created us, knowing full well how we'd end up, its like saying "Ok. Go ahead. Be that way."

Yep. He did that so we would have free will. He gave us the capacity to turn against him, so his followers would have a genuine relationship with him. God doesn't want our lives to be difficult, which is why he gave us instructions on how to live. We don't have to follow them, however, and can seek our own insctructions.

So... he created humanity to kill humanity?

He did not create humanity with the prediposition for murder. He created the first humans perfect. They had no knowledge of evil, until they disobeyed God, which, in effect, became what evil is. This act came through out sin, and deception. Lucifer has had an incredible influence on this earth. Lucifer decieved Eve into eating the fruit, which makes Lucifer the father of all lies. If God stopped Lucifer from doing that, he wouldn't be letting EVE have free will.



So he is incapable of making the perfect world *and* giving us free will? I thought he could do EVERYTHING!

Just because God can do anything doesn't mean he will. He could make me the most powerful being on earth if he wanted to, but that doesn't mean he ever ever will.

If he created us, he is responsible for the "programming." He not only makes it possible to not choose him, he also makes it so that some of us would not choose him... and then he punishes us for it.

No. We punish ourselves. God told us how to live, because if we didn't live like that, matter would turn against us, as would Lucifer. He was trying to protect us. Giving us reason. If life had no consequance for our actions, no one would ever need God,m and that would also defeat the purpose of free will: we have to have clear choices to make to even choose them.



But written by humans. Humans lie, and humans make mistakes...

You have no idea what inspired by God means do you?


If the future is not set in stone, then god cant see the future, he can only calculate it, thus, god cant do everything.

At this point, you are only hearing what you want to hear, and no longer respond to reason or explination. This post is done.

Yes, actually, he did. In creating them, he created the way they think, and made them so that, presented with the oppertunity to eat the apple, they would.



If he didnt intend it, how come he created it this way? You mean to tell me it was a suprise to god?



So that means god cant see the decisions we'll make?



Learn logic before telling me theres no logic in that statement.



Oh yes. Im the one not listening to reason. Im the one comming here telling you guys that you're all wrong cuz god told me so.



Nope, sorry, you're not gonna weasel your way out of that one. Not talking about god limiting himself, can or cant god create a mountain even he cant lift?



It makes perfect sense. You dont want to admit that god, if he exists, cant do everything.



If he sees the choice, then that means not only that the future is written in stone, but also means he knew how we'd end up from the beginning, and yet, he still created us...



Sure, he gave us the capacity, he also created me to turn atheist, and you to believe whatever you believe.



Yet, since god made Eve, he structured how she'd think, which means that he knew and made it so that, presented with the situation that she was (and he knew that situation would be presented), she'd choose to eat the apple.



Well then he's gotta stop claiming "I was trying to make the perfect world!"



Yes.



How would that defeat the purpose of free will any more than it is already so?



You mean to tell me, god took away they're free will, so that they cant decide for themselves how to interpret what he said and also how to write it down?



At a point long ago, no, scratch that. You ALWAYS hear what you want to hear. I really couldnt care less if you dont respond anymore, hell, I'd prefer it.

You aren't even making any sense or progress with your posts anymore. You take every answer and turn it into a question in which the original answer explains. It's a constant loop, going around and around and around.


Just like talking to my obstinate little brother when he gets something stuck in his head.

All you do is talk in circles, and I think most everyone can see it now.

Speaks loads about your comprehension skills.



No, it doesnt.



Thats cuz all I hear comming is "No. You're wrong. God gave us free will. He did not make our choices for us."

Wow, what a thought up answer that is! Afterall, I'm not simply saying "No. YOU're wrong. God did not give us free will. He made all our choices for us." I'm trying to back myself up logically too... yet no one seems to want to argue on that level.



If you dont like talking to me, why do you keep doing it?

Well, the reason for that is.....

Blah blah blah blah bla bla blah blah

Well, the reason for that is.....

Blah blah blah blah bla bla blah blah

Well, the reason for that is.....

Blah blah blah blah bla bla blah blah

Wait, am I talking in circles here?

I've given you countless logical arguments. Countless. It's not my fault if you can't/don't want to/are too stupid to see them.

And I have countered your those illogical arguments, countless times. Its not my fault you cant/dont want to/are to stupid to/are to scared to/all of the previous mentioned, to see my point.

So Stellar, this grasshopper walks into a bar.....

lol

Boys and girls this is one of the oldest arguements in the world. I really don't think that we are going to solve it here in this forum but we just might have our minds opened to a new Idea and thats all i'm hoping for. So lets not get all pissy or mad at each other ok. Hell just think if we did solve the problem to the question at hand what would we do with it lol. SO lets keep expanding our minds and having some fun,'cause life is way to short to be living it mad.

Oh, P.S. GOD rocks hehehehe.

*salutes Ninj*

.....close this thread! close this thread!

I to think we kinda got of topic here alright but its hard to stay on one topic with out bringing other things it to it. Its like trying to talk about lets say cars and only talking about tires.

This seems like a good idea, this thread has no longer any purpose, as the arguements presented are going round in circles with no sight of conclusion.