sooo you think it's ridiculous for a few to believe in what ever they want to believe?
as they would have to believe what you believe in?
...

i'm just poking the mind, don't take it seriously

If what they believe is that stupid, yes

Don't get me wrong, generally, I'm willing to give people's various eccentricities a great deal of patience...but there are limits. The claim that prompted me to undertake this little excursion was, in particular, ridiculously stupid

Respect for a person's beliefs doesn't extend into inane arguments and ludicrous, unsubstantiated claims.



Ah…such a utopia….I can only dream

And of course the statement was "You would" not "I have" or "its possible"..... and she didnt...so they were proved false right?

pokin' the mind

kikuchiyo...I didn't mean for any of my comments to be taken personally...Just that the whole business of looking for ghosts in a cemetary would be pointless. The dead are in hallow ground and RIP.
Most (if not all) reports of hauntings relate to the so-called 'spirit entity' not being at rest, being lost or even (remaining) in the world of the living because of a unfinished business or strong connections with somebody alive.

Vimjams

Probably because it's an interesting one and has done more to highlight the negative and narrow-minded ideals of skeptics. Regardless of a person's individual beliefs in the paranormal respect should always be given, seems that the skpetics, or at least a few of them lack in decent human standards and would rather mock those of us who genuinely believe some of these phenomena to be real.

Perfectly put.

Mr P, I don't mock people who believe in ghosts and the paranormal, I just mock the ones who have silly reasons for doing so

"Go to a graveyard and you'll see floating red lights! They're demon eyes! Raaar!"

I didn't say you did. Show me where I mention your little self in my previous post.

Mr P, I'm not going to get back into a knock down drag out fight with you suffice to say it's quite obvious you were attempting a very thinly veiled reference to me, given your previous accusations to me earlier in this thread and others.

If you weren't, clear a misunderstanding...though I doubt it's any great stretch of the imagination to understand how I could come to that conclusion

Miss S. From reading many of your previous posts on this and many other threads and from what I have heard you are not one who likes to listen to others opinions. You drag any serious issue in to a thread of silly annoyances and posting emoticons like they're going out of fashion. Your attitude to differing opinions is one of sarcasm and ridicule. You are not willing to listen to people and their beliefs, nor do you show any modicum of respect. I have made a post on what I believe has been a general attitude in this thread regarding those of us with a serious and thoughful approach to paranormal phenomena. I have not mentioned you nor was my post supposed to refer to you. It was a general remark, but as usual your pathetic and narrow minded attitude has to take center stage and derail a thread in to a post fight. Grow up and learn to respect people and realise that we don't all share the same opinions or beliefs.

I know we don't...as I said, such a utopia as a world where everyone fought like me is, as of yet, way too far out of reach

Did I say "fought"...I meant "thought" My my, slip of the tongue

Thought? You don't think, you presume, you assume and then you ridicule.

Take a few things a little more seriously in life and perhaps you'll learn something, as for me avoiding threads with a sarcastic and silly approach seems a sensible option.

Yes you are right , it is an interesting thread. The reason why it has gone on so long is probably because its not the normal 'I saw a Ghost' where everyone says 'ooh and ahh' and all believe the person then end of the subject. This has opened up a topic where people need to 'THINK' instead.



Utter rubbish. Its you that is seeing this negative and narrow-minded. Why is it that a thread such as this with something other than 'oh yes it has to be paranormal,' makes believers angry? Is it because deep down inside you know that what has been said is actually rather relevant?

There is more truth in this thread than a thread that is based on a paranormal experience. Why is this? Because there is scientific and academic proof to back it up. I have yet to see anything within these categories that reflect the paranormal in the same light.

Open your eyes.

how sarcasm and mockery can be seen as relevant is beyond me.

Oops! Think you got that wrong! We are not the ones presuming or assuming anything. Think thats more the believers avenue of thought. There is basic facts of life that hold up our arguments.

And all facts of life are known, nothing left to be discovered?

Thanks Lottie in the meantime...

Mr P, allow me to educate you on the history of this thread...

- I post what is, indeed, a sarcastic reply to another member’s ridiculous claims. Most people understand it as the attempt at humor that it is, pay their compliments to it, and leave it be.

- A few posts later you enter, accuse me of narrow mindedness and other such things.

- I explain to you the circumstances surrounding the conversation that led to this experiment.

- You get angry, and continue with a belligerent series of posts about how I'm a typical, narrow minded, non-believer. You go on to challenge me to explain what you deem your paranormal encounter.

- I do

- You get angry, reject my perfectly reasonable explanation with a series of arguments that have about as much weight behind them as a midget boxer's left hook, and then leave.

- Thread continues as normal

- You come in later, further insult myself and skeptics in general, and now here we are again.

Every post you've made so far in this topic has been somehow offensive to either myself directly, or indirectly through an attack on skeptics Are you honestly trying to take the morale high ground now?

I would suggest it is YOU that needs to grow up, start acting your age, and find something better to do with your free time, than waste mine

Then tell me...Why is it that there is no factual evidence and no proof that the 'paranormal' is real? Its not because I or Sera or anyone who is sceptical is narrow minded but believers instead. You cannot draw any nearer to finding out the truth when you have no logical scope to allow you to do this is the first place.

Agree to disagree. No amount of proof will ever sway the haredened skeptics and I personally don't feel obliged to.

Mr P, currently you have no proof with which to sway us If it were to ever come to light, then I guarentee you would be able to change our minds...

That's the lovely thing about drawing your opinion from science...what you believe is determined entirerly by the evidence provided. New evidence means new opinions.

The unfortunate part of drawing your belief entirerly from faith, be they religious, paranormal, or whatnot, is that evidence tends be utterly ingored in place of "gut feelings" and other suppositions.

This is it. I am not a hardened sceptic! From my other posts you will see that I have in fact looked into this for a long time. Its the people who believe and will not and cannot except that the likelyhood of ghosts and spirits are actually rather slim especially when science has shown otherwise.

Looked in to it? I've researched paranormal phenomena for over 20 years. I've written a book on it. Do you think that I choose to believe just because? It isn't a faith, nor is it religious bound, I choose to believe because I have seeb so much "evidence" dismissed at the turn of a hat with absolutely no logical or "scientific" explanation.

The reverse is also true, Mr P I've seen countless people dismiss logical and scientific explanations at the drop of a hat, for no reason whatsoever than because they simply don't want to believe anything except what they've convinced themselves of.

Heck, I sat here and watched you do it yourself. I offered an explanation, a valid and reasonable one, and you simply dismissed it, insisted on your own paranormal scenario.

At the very least, our logic comes from a lab instead of our own emotions. There's no opinion or personal investment in proving the paranormal false....it just happens to be what the facts point towards.

Incidentally, that'll have to be my last post for a while, as I'm off to work now have fun children

Right, so you offer an explanation and that's that, sorted?

Had your scenario stayed on course and actually reflected my account accurately then I would have said thank you for your theory/explanation but I believe what happened to be real. You didn't though, now did you, hmmmm. You added your own little cliches and made my story totally unrecognisable.

Yes and look where that 20 years has got you. No-where. Whatever kind of evidence you may have accumulated has not been seen in the Academic circles as anything significant enough to prove otherwise. Why? There are many reasons especially when it comes down to good old Physiology of the human body
but more than that because no-one ever has caught a ghost/spirit and looked at its physical make-up to determine that what people see, feel or experience is anything to do with ghosts and spirits.

You may have seen evidence but in a scientific community that is not good enough. You need more than just your experience. Of course there is a scientific and logical explanation for every event based on as I have mentioned Physiology, Physics, chemistry and biology.

Science and the believers will never agree, I am under no dellusions about that.



Like I said before, I am not out to prove conclusivly to the skeptics that paranormal phenomena are genuine. Why bother? It's never going to happen. But what about the reports and evidence that skeptical organisations get and fail badly to explain with their science and logic? I guess these must be put down as, " I don't know, but I'm sure there will be a scientific explanation someday".

All paranormal events are explainable and its normally to do with a scientific or psychological explanation. That is why these sceptical organisations dismiss this supposed 'evidence' because there is no conclusive evidence of ghosts/spirits to support the claims.

I have to praise you, phenomenon, you are totally correct in what you say about the paranormal.

I think some people are in 'the dark ages' when it comes to the paranormal_ particularly_ those that haven't experienced it.

Wow Babs I didn't know you were the authority on the paranormal! You obvioulsy know something that scientists, philosophers, mathmaticians and everyone else don't know about .



Actually I would say ghosts and spirits are in the dark ages. They are myth and legend and tales from way back. It just so happens here in the 21st century people are not so easily influenced by 'blind faith' anymore.

phenomenon...I am totally with you in respect of the so-called sceptics operating on this board. Looking at past and present posts I can see that there is definitely a ltitle clique of them who have been putting people down for quite some time.
For a while I thought this board was going the same way as 'blackvault' and the 'clique' dominating and controlling the course of the discussions. It's good to see your posts.

If people have a strong and valid belief in the paranormal...They are going to have to voice that belief a lot louder than they have been doing so far.

Vimjams

Well, at least you can express your opinion

Vimjams

No they are not, and that's my point.



And there my friends speaks the voice of a very inexperienced and kowledgeless individual who has probably never bothered to really study phenomena to any degree. There is plenty out there if you would just open your eyes.

Glad to see you sorted the quote tag out, tricky little thing aint it.

This is my take on Seraphina too. I am in total agreement here. She 'does' need to grow up.

Lottie..."Blind faith" I'm not talking about faith.

Well in my opinion it takes two to have a slanging match...but anyway...

Science may not be able to explain such things, but that would be because after the first experience the conditions are no longer the same. Therefore arguements for or against are pretty pointless as is trying to get evidense it didnt happen. However science discovers things that have effect on the human mind everyday, that we would never have suspected to have had n impact....for example:

"Ghosts may have a scientific explanation after all _ and it is not all in the mind. New research into a real-life haunting has revealed that all the classic signs of ghosts can be explained as the result of very low frequency sound waves trapped inside buildings.

Capable of being triggered by nothing more than the wind passing over walls, the sound waves cannot be heard. But scientific tests have revealed that they have effects on the human body that can account for the wraith-like appearance of ghosts and even the feelings of cold and terror that accompany them.

The explanation emerged after a chance discovery by a university academic who found himself involved in a haunting in a laboratory. AE One night as Vic Tandy worked alone he began sweating despite feeling cold and then he noticed a figure in the room. ``The hair was standing up on the back of my neck _ I was terrified.''

The explanation emerged the following morning. Mr Tandy, a fencing enthusiast, had left a foil clamped in a vice. ``When I returned, I noticed that the free end of the blade was frantically vibrating up and down.''

A trained engineer, he realised that the blade might be receiving energy from very low frequency sound waves filling the laboratory _ so low that they could not be heard.

Tests duly revealed the existence of a ``standing wave'' trapped in the lab which reached a peak in intensity next to his desk. ``It turned out to be caused by a new extraction fan ... When the fan's mounting was altered, the ghost left with the standing wave.''

Working with Dr Tony Lawrence of the university's school of health, he has now discovered the significance of this rate of vibration. In research published in the latest issue of the Journal of the Society for Psychical Research they reveal that ``infra-sound'' around this frequency has been linked to a whole host of physiological effects _ including breathlessness, shivering and feelings of fear.

While acoustic experts have known about the health effects of infra-sound, until now no one has made the link to ghosts. Mr Tandy said that he has since come across two more ``hauntings'' where low-frequency sound may be to blame. "

From an editorial in The Age a few years back....


I say would should be looking further into the human mind/brain.... Because I believe this has more to do with these sort of things then we can see....

If you ever bothered to study where Ghosts and Spirits originated from, you will see that indeed they go back many hundreds of years! The Paranormal is nothing more than a money making scam. Come on be honest here...the only reason you are bothered by the FACTS is that you are trying to make money out of it.

Basically you do not have any proof, neither does anyone else. After all this 'serious' study, why is it that there is still nothing to show of their existence? Because it does not exist, not in the typical ghost/ spirit way. And this is why your desperate attempts of trying to belittle me are just very very funny.

If you were serious about this then you would want as much input and scientic basis for your studies as much as using mediums. Why is it that these groups always shy away from the suggestion of a scientific input? Because you know that science will always justify the experiences a person is having.

Thanks for your concer regarding the quotes by the way.

My dear, I have already stated that I have a book published which covers a vast array of paranormal & unexplained phenomena. I think it is you who should try some research, not me. I have 20 years of solid research and experince behind me, how about you? I guess you have very little at the most.



I am most certainly not desperate nor do I try to belittle you, you have done a good job of that yourself. You have shown absolutely no knowledge whatsoever and have tried to put a point across with no knowledge, this shows you up badly.

Learn my dear and then maybe we will be on an equal plain as far as topical debate is concerned.

I am trying to discuss in a reasonable manner, you and seraphina make that increasingly difficult.

Very interesting, Subtemperate. I think I have come across something like this in my readings. You say that this infra-sound has been the cause of several hauntings, but as I recall it hasn't been seen to have been the cause of 'all' hauntings. Do you have any more info on this?

What about things in the environment that move... or materialize_ out of thin air?

Babs, I might actually have been offended, if this comment hadn't come from a person who's universally regarded as a complete moron across the entire forum



Mr P, I believe it is in fact YOU who have more frequently resorted to childishness, it is YOU who have been extremely rude, especially in regards to Lottie knowledge on this subject...something that she does, in fact, seem to be far more rational about than you.

Quite honestly, the sheer arrogance you've shown in this thread is amazing...it really makes me wish I hadn't started this in the first place. What began as a joke has just turned into some kind of blind, high and mighty crusade against the scientific minded

Sorry you feel that way. It was an honest opinion from two people here. You are as arrogant as your brother. Grow up. (You are more interested in your ego than you are at getting at the truth).

More infot for babs...


"Research has previously proven that exposure to low frequency sound can cause a variety of physiological effects, many of them adverse ones, such as shivering, anxiety and breathlessness. These responses can lead a person to think that some unseen danger is imminent, or feel like he is being watched. Infrasound might even cause hallucinations. Tests at NASA have shown that the human eyeball has a resonant frequency of 18 cycles a second, and will vibrate in sympathy with infrasound waves that have a similar frequency. Under these conditions, there would be a "smearing of vision" that is capable of making someone see evanescent hallucinations in the periphery of their visual field. This effect is reminiscent of the theories of neurologist Michael Persinger, who has suggested that electromagnetic waves can interfere with brain activity and lead people to think they see ghosts or aliens.

To back up his personal observations, Tandy has investigated other sites of reported hauntings, and he claims to have found two more in which infrasound may account for the "presence" of ghosts. One was a building where a wind tunnel in the basement was running during the sighting. Of course, the classical haunted house is an old abandoned mansion without so much as electrical wiring, let alone heavy industrial equipment. But infrasound can still be generated without power -- a standing wave could be caused by wind blowing past a cracked window in a long, narrow corridor, which sounds like a suitably creepy setting. This type of low-frequency sound generation is similar in principle to the deep tooting sound a glass bottle makes when you blow across the top of it.

So it just might be that subsonic sound waves have put the spook in a lot of traditionally spooky places. And what's more, in some cases it may have even been put there on purpose. Archaeologists have discovered that a number of Neolithic tombs in England and Ireland were seemingly constructed so as to make sounds bounce off walls with the intentional effect of being, well, scary. The tombs uniformly create this acoustic environment through the familiar recipe of a long, narrow entryway with an opening to the outside at one end. The ancient architects of these tombs may not have understood infrasound frequencies and Helmholtz resonance, but spookiness was a desirable feature for a tomb, for the purpose of instilling reverence for the dead and discouraging grave-robbers. Through trial and error, they might have struck upon the most sonically foreboding design possible, and stuck with it."

"OK kids, quite your arguing or I will turn this forum right around and go home. Don't think I wont do it too..."

Be nice to each other. No name calling, it is uncalled for.

Actually, I've already asked Saru to do just that....

I started this thread as a bit of fun for crying out loud....not some venue for Mr P to bumble on in and start some campaign against the scientific world If he takes the fact that I explained away his "experience" that personally, then he can settle it elsewhere...I didn't make this thread for it to degenerate into a flame war.

Honest to god, wish I hadn't bothered.

I have shown a level of logic and competence that seems to be sadly lacking in some area's of your posts. You cannot even seem to reason with logic and this is a very poor basis when you are suggesting that you are attempting to understand the paranormal.



It seems to be that you cannot come to grips with the fact that there are people out there who are looking at the paranormal in a scientic way and that in reality we are drawing together more evidence as to the fact that these things do not exist.

As for your book (and I am sure its great and I would be interested to look at it) without the belief of others in the paranormal your book would not be generating an interest hence there is alot riding on the fact that one needs to try and rubbish logical scepticism.

That was terrific, Subtemperate. Fantastic info. What do you think about materialization and 'moving objects' in an environment? What does Tandy say about this? Is he still researching?

Well, phenomenon, you are being accused of being 'materialistic', now_ by the scientific 'materialistic' mind, no less.

Wow, what the heck was this topic about..anyway? Oh, yeah, Sera at the graveyard.

Well, at least someone came back with some interesting pictures of their adventure. Perhaps there will be more experimentation coming up.

Im not sure babs, this is the latest info i can find on him....

From

http://iccoventry.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news...ll&siteid=50003

"Ghostbuster Vic Tandy has been called in to try to solve the mystery of one of Britain's most haunted places.

The university lecturer visited the creepy vaults and chambers under Edinburgh's South Bridge to see if he could detect any ghostly going-ons.

Mr Tandy, of Warwick, uses an instrument to measure infrasound - a low frequency sound which causes a reaction in people that someinterpret as a supernatural experience.

He says if some people are in a "scary environment" and feel infrasound they believe they have encountered something or someone from beyond the grave.

On his first visit to the vaults he recorded disappointing results, with none of the rooms showing any signs of activity and no-one feeling anything ghostly.

Vehicles are one of the main contributors to infrasound and the poor results were put down to the fact that the bridge above was temporarily closed.

He had been hoping to find results similar to the huge infrasound peak of 18.9Hz he detected while investigating a 14th-century cellar beneath the tourist information building in Bayley Lane, Coventry.

On his second visit to Edinburgh however, things took a more ghostly turn.

Mr Tandy said: "We were in the vault's most haunted room and all of a sudden I started to feel a cold chill.

"I was wearing a jacket, fleece, pullover and shirt and at first did not realise the significance of it.

"I started to feel a bit twitchy and then the penny dropped. I became aware that the photographer with us was becoming increasingly anxious and jumpy.

"I took some more readings and noticed a 100 fold increase in power around the 20Hz region - the area I am interested in particularly

"We heard some bangs and the photographer was quite frightened."

The readings were attributed to a an electrical generator which had been turned on shortly before the group started feeling the spooky sensations.

The poor readings from the most haunted room were also blamed on the fact that the infrasound could not resonate because of a hole that had recently been madein its ceiling.

Mr Tandy added: "This was a really interesting experiment for me to do. I would like to go back again when the bridge is open as I am sure there will be more infra-sound and more spooky reactions."
"

Thanks for posting this Sub. I have been looking at this in the past, it is very interesting.