Exactly, my arguement all along. You shot yourself in the foot there.

As for being a moron, there ya go again Miss S, shouting the odds. You can't help youself, can you?

I see that as being a big point for most in this little slapping contest..... Including yourself Phenomenon.

Very interesting. But Tandy hasn't gone onto other paranormal happenings with this infra-sound stuff. Remember that spooky show on cable that took families to alledgedly haunted castles around the world? The people had those same reactions_ and that's all that ever happened. It was a disapointment to me, we didn't see anything. They felt something, heard something and their senses did the rest. Of course, when you are locked in a castle all night that, in itself, would get anxious feelings blown out of proportion.

This still doesn't offer any more research into moving objects and materialization. You know things that appear out of the blue, drop from the sky 'into your lap sort of deal'. Bringing material objects into existence or interacting with objects in the environment_moving things and destroying stuff. And what about the other paranormal talents such as pre-cognition, esp etc.? Granted, they haven't been proven, but that's not to say they don't exist. Scientists can't get a handle on these things. How does Tandy's research or experiment bring light to these experiences? It doesn't. All are paranormal stuff, though.

This is interesting and others have come up with similar data on sound waves being at the bottom of some of these paranormal happenings_ and I go for this, however, on a limited basis, it is a physical property. This does explain the part that Tandy is talking about, though, but only about that particular part.

Let's see, this is a physical property bringing on physiological reactions... such as anxiety, breathlessness, hallucinations, etc. _and that's it, right?

This is interesting_ no doubt about it. I'll see if I can find some more data on this.

This is sketchy, but a few years back didn't TLC run a show where they found that bombarding a person with and Electromagnetic field can cause reactions similar to paranormal sightings? Things like the feeling of being watched, sensing things that they could not see... It seemed similar to the infrasound issues if I recall correctly...Does that ring a bell for anyone?

Come on Seraphina…You started this thread in an attempt to make some people look foolish. Your experiment appears to have been half hearted and not scientific at all. Now you are wishing this thread closed to escape looking foolish yourself.
One can find other threads on this board where you have attacked a person for their beliefs and then weaselled out of the argument by resorting to name-calling or simply 'cutting' it short.
When I said you were a “sad little girl” (in another thread) I did so in response to your silly argument: Not as an insult to you (just a response)

I may not agree with Babs on things she has written…But you are wrong (and typically rude) to call her a “moron” because she does not buckle under your assault.

Ghosts, as the phenomenon is identified, are real. Large numbers of people regularly witness these events. And I have said, I have myself seen and felt such things (vividly) and no amount of cynicism is going to convince me I am hallucinating, lying or falling to a misunderstanding…No matter how clever that contrary argument (pretends) to be.

Vimjams

Yes, yes. I saw that documentary on cable. It was very interesting. I remember differing opinions on what brought on the paranormal happenings in that woman's house.

vim is on the assault ! duck!

Well said vimjams.

I was thinking about that show and the stories that have run on infrasound...I which causes which?

Do infrasound/EM fields cause people to sense things and see ghosts or do ghosts casue infrasound and EM fields?

Well put fluffy , that's allways been my take on things.

Now I'm a believer and I am a believer for a reason , but I am also an individual believer (and moderator), who has a real problem with gross generalisations like . The entire scientific community or All you believers or even yes all you skeptics .

Forgive me if I am wrong but is it not the job of the scientist to observe and learn , I will agree that on occasion those people who claim to support the scientific arguement tend to go in to an experience with allready biased opinions toward that subject ..

What!! losely vieled , no I actually mean Sera , I admire her knowledge and her logical responses in most cases . But to make my point clear , the whole tag team (Seraphina and Stellar) responses that have crept into experiences posted by recent members would be considered biased and pre-assumed .

Still the next person to issue an insult , gets a personal message from me .

Lottie...I'd like to know what sort of evidence this is...Evidence of something that does not exist ? That's a phenomenon in itself.
I think you are actually refering to...A gathering of like-minded opinions.

Vimjams

Fluffy, the human brain has been known to see and feel all sorts of thing from electromagnetic pulse.

"The human brain also has it's own emissions of extra-low-frequency (ELF) electromagnetic waves at a frequency between 1 and 30 hertz"

Think of it as putting a mobile phone up to a radio why its sending a call or message.

"We can use TMS to prevent people from seeing a visual stimulus or make it hard for them to speak", he says. They can also make people move their limbs without any voluntary control. Some of the first studies showed that applying TMS to the brain's temporal lobes, the regions just above the eyebrows, altered the mood of volunteers. When they stimulated the area above the right eyebrow, the volunteer experienced euphoric happiness. When they targeted the left temporal lobe, the subject lapsed into apathy and sadness. "

Even to a point they think it has this much hold over us:

"Recently, in early 2002, researchers at the Centre of the Mind in Sydney, Australia successfully used TMS to increase creativity in a group of 17 volunteers. The team used brief, low-frequency signals to recreate the same "brain weather" observed in autistic savants (creative geniuses like Dustin Hoffman's character in Rain Man). Within 15 minutes, the subjects were drawing better than they ever could before. "


And Vimjams, I feel Lottie means "evidense that the stimuli interpreted as paranormal actually has some logical scientific reason"

What about intelligent agencies or agents that interact with people and the environment?...ghosts or spirits. We aren't getting into this.

Ok...ill try for more info...

"The name Poltergeist is derived from the German meaning "noisy ghost". The phenomena is probably an electromagnetic "hot spot" that manifests itself in the form of sound via tapping, knocking, footsteps etc. Objects, some quite heavy can be seen to move or levitate. Other objects can appear out of thin air, these are known as teleports. Electrical equipment and lights can be switched on and light bulbs can pop.
THE POLTERGEIST MACHINE
John Hutchinson an inventor from British Columbia, Canada has been investigating electromagnetic fields. In his house he powered up several electrical machines such as Tesla coils, van der Graff generators, signal generators etc. After a short period of time the combined effects of the equipment produced some very strange phenomena. Metal objects distorted and broke, some became white hot but did not burn adjacent materials; objects levitated and moved around, a yoghurt pot levitated and its contents left the pot and hovered above it; fires broke out on a concrete floor where there was no combustible material; water spun around in containers; lights appeared in the air then disappeared. All these phenomena are characteristic of poltergeist activity and were generated from a range of electric equipment powered only by mains electricity. It would appear that the interactivity of the electromagnetic fields generated by the equipment at high voltages and a range of frequencies resulted in classic poltergeist activity."

I'd hate to be his neighbor...Oy.



Does that explain poltergeist activity or explain away poltergeist activity? Looking at this from the point of view of someone who has done little reading towards the scientific explanation of poltergeist activity, it seems to me that being able to reproduce a phenomena does not mean that the technique used (EMF in this case) is the only way to reproduce that particular effect...

I am trying to come up with an analogy to explain myself better, but I am too tired and ma drawing a blank...

I've read about this stuff before. We still aren't talking about intelligent interaction. There are paranormal experiences that are obviously directed by someone or something and these intelligences interact with people in the environment. I agree with 'phenomenon' when he said that the paranormal has been proven.... or proven to individuals. I disagree with Lottie when she says, "....we are drawing together more evidence that these things do not exist". The paranormal field is growing _parapsychology is a big deal today. Just look at the name of this forum.

Still this is fascinating, the info you are presenting.

Thankyou...

Whilst I dont really care either way, proof is just proof till its shown to be false. Years ago they believed some people to be witches and burned them..... They thought they had proof. Today we have come along way from such thinking, but the basic idea is that until we as humans can disprove something we don't seem to want to acknowledge the possibility we are wrong.

I dont have any opinions, just stating my own observations.

That's an excellent point, one I have made several times before. Science seems to think that by re-creating some paranormal effect/phenomenon they have explained it away and that is that. The same has been done with Crop Circles, the only problem is they have never actually covered every single aspect of the phenomenon. The same can be said with poltergeist activity. There are simply too many effects/symptoms attached to these phenomena for the tests to totally resolve it.

When one of these tests can create the effect of an object totally unconnected to a property suddenly appearing in a house then I may rethink my opinions.

It's no good creating 80% of a phenomenon, you have to create the entire spread and then maybe you can say that it is indeed scientific and totally logical.

Fluffy writes:

Yes, I agree. Just because you can reproduce a response such as this doesn't mean that that is how it is produced in all instances. Or just because you can trigger a reaction a certain way doesn't mean that there aren't other ways (and things ) out there to do it.

Subtemperate...'teleport'. What exactly is that? I know something falls out of the air, but have they explained how this happens?

You know different ages gave us different names for the phenomenon people encountered such as witches, ghosts, 'the fairies', etc., but these names just go with the people and the times_ there is still the underlying phenemena out there.

phenomenon...You know what I find ironic....the fact that you have studied the paranormal for 20 years and written a book (about the subject) and Seraphina hasn't even been on this planet for 20 years. She talks like 'Whistler's Mother', but is only 19.

And Lottie....asking me about being an 'expert on the paranormal'? I never said I was an expert I have an intense personal interest in the paranormal as my husband and myself have had paranormal experiences, but I have never claimed to be an expert. However I do think someone who has experienced this world is in a much better position to talk about it than someone who hasn't. Lottie seems like someone who is...."On the outside...scratchin' at the door."

That would depend on wether a person spent twenty years studying something, or spent a year studying it, twenty times in a row.

Hey aquatus ...I was going to pm you and ask you to come on this thread, I have a few questions to ask you. What is teleportation and have they figured out how it works? You know_ materialization and de-materialization, how does that work?

Also, have you heard about the infra-sound theory Tandy has discovered?...and how does infra-sound work with or how is it different than electro-magnetic fields?

And here I thought this thread was dead.

Aquatus...I am suprised at you!

Vimjams

Babs..... I can study something for twenty years, I could write a book on it. That does not make me an expert, or automatically correct. Some have studied the war, and said that the holocaust never happened. Just because they studied for a lifetime, and published their findings does not make the correct.

Discounting someone because of inexperience is naive, as sometimes it takes someone from far away to see the big picture. Personal insults over someones right to have an opinion I believe say more about those saying them, then of those the comment is made about.

Well, teleportation is the transferrance of the exact properties of a given object to another location with the original object being destroyed in the process. It is the destruction of the original that differentiates teleportation from replication. Back in 1993, scientists were first able to replicate the spin forces of a photon onto another, and this is generally considered to be the first time teleportation was achieved. For a long time, teleportation was thought to be impossible due to a certain aspect of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, which does not allow us to observe all the aspects of a quantum body without affecting it, eventually altering it completely and never being able to record all the properties at one go (if we cannot record all the data, we cannot replicate it). This, however, has been recently overcome with a very tricky by-pass maneuver that has shown itself to be both reliable and repeatable in the information it gathers. Teleportation in the quantum realm is now do-able, though still a subject with much research still left to be done. Teleportation in the macro world is another animal altogether, and while there are no fundamental laws that prohibit its occurence, there is the matter of the energy requirements involved. Considering that it would take the energy of several Hiroshima sized bombs to create a single gram of mass, the energy to replicate a human would be immense, and currently far beyond our ability to generate.

I am a little hesitant to comment on Vic Tandy's work. Not that I find anything wrong with it, or that there are any allegations of hoax or fraud, but I couldn't help but notice that the only information available on it anywhere is what comes from the single page of Coventry University's website. The majority of the web sites simply copy this page word-for-word, and others just paraphrase it. Like I said, it is hardly evidence of foul play, but a single source with no references has always been a red flag in my book.

I all cases, back in the forties, when movie theaters were experimenting with new ways to titillate the viewing audience, a flurry of special effects were incorporated into movies (3-d, shock-o-vision, rumble-vision, etc...). One of these special effects was the low frequency sound generator. This machine, unsurprisingly, generated a low frequency sound which, while inaudible, caused the physical sensation of tremors in the stomach muscles. Played during horror movies, the effect of this invisible, unimaginable, feeling of touch without substance caused many a young thing to shriek with terror. The posters proudly proclaimed it to be "So scary you will mess your pants!"; an exagerrated claim which, unfortunately, still exist today in the form of "brown noise", a mythical frequency that causes your bowels to loosen. Ultra-sound, ultimately, causes effects by physically affecting the body, in the sense that it causes your muscles to tremble, your inner ear to shake, and even your eyeballs to twitch. The best example of this is the amazing 3-foot, 1000 watt sound cannon on board Navy ships, used against civilians (mostly Greenpeacers) whom we don't want to shoot (mostly), but don't want to allow too close to the carriers either. A blast from this cannon acts much like a death ray, in that it can be aimed very precisely and one can track small boats with it, causing those on-board to frequently loose their lunches.

Electromagnetic frequencies, on the other hand, interfere directly with the neural chemistry of the brain. Neurons fire when there is a 20 millivolt difference between the neuron and the external environment. Normally, this occurs due to the transferrance of K/NA through the cell membrane. Electro-magnetic frequencies, on the other hand, can also shift this delicate balance directly, causing neurons to fire in an abnormal manner. The mind defends itself by temporarily isolating the sections of the mind that are behaving erratically. This leads to senses of detachment, of mysterious presences, and in certain cases, even hallucinations. Researchers working on this used a special electromagnetic wand and wave it over certain parts of their skull, recording the effects (if this seems somewhat unscientific...well, it is, but this is very new ground to cover, and the ground0rules haven't quite been layed down yet.)

That's a quick overview. If you need details, I may or may not be able to help, but feel free to ask.

If you want to go for personal insults look at Sera's insults. Wish you would have said that when she called me a moron (after I gave her an honest opinion).

.....Maybe you are a little biased, Subtemperate?


I know that. I think we all know that. That's not what I said, perhaps you should read my post again.

Here I thought this thread was dead; Seraphina, the starter of the thread, has 'fled the thread'; the opponents have all left, but maybe there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

Pot. Kettle. Black.



Far more more likely she just found a better use of her time.

Actually Babs I do remember a Moderator making a post requesting people in this thread to stop making childish remarks about each other. Since then i can only see one person who has contiued to insult another..... so I am reacting to that.

I have not insultd you, nor have I even said you were the one at fault, I merely made an observation, and if you read my quote Bab's... It is general, and makes no mention of names.

I am biased, but I can admit it, and I keep it out of my posts, something some people could learn from.

aquatus... Do you think most hauntings could be electro-magnetic frequencies in the environment? You say 'mysterious visitors' and hallucinations are produced by electro-magnetic frequencies, how about teleportation in this environment or materialization? Can that happen? People talk about hauntings where objects just drop out of thin air...

Well, this is the point where we can't make generalizations anymore. These things have to be checked out on a case by case basis. For instance, if we have a haunting at a power shop, then all the materials present for an electromagnetic phenomena are present. That would be the first thing that I would check out as a possible cause. Proper investigations are done from the evidence up; you can't go into one thinking you know the solution. Your best bet is to assume the negative: an intentional deception. By making this assumption, you are free to analyze all the present evidence without a conclusion. Contrary to popular belief, a hoax is not a conclusion to an investigation. An investigation makes up much more than that. You have to have an explanation of the phenomena, the materials and situations needed for it to occur, and the logical connection that ties them all together. Assuming the negative is a handy little technique that gives you the latitude to investigate all possibilities equally, ironically enough. This is why assuming foul play is a favorite technique of police investigators. It allows them to check into everyones motivations, materials (and access) and their connection to each other. You have probably seen or heard about investigators treating everyone like criminals. Know you know why they do it.

As far as ghostly teleportations...to be frank, no, I do not believe it is possible. I have neither read of any case nor been present at any phenomena that would lead me to believe that any paranormal phenomena is capable of generating the massive amount of energy that would, by sheer necessity of construction, be required to manipulate atoms on the quantum level. I personally consider these stories nothing more than the modern day equivalents of the "ghost passenger leaves a glove/scarf/book" type of urban legend.

aquatus...How about interacting with objects in the environment? (You know like moving things) What is your view on this_ could electro-magnetic frequencies move objects or do you have another theory?

Hey Talon. A little bird told me you might pop up on this thread. Now here's another 'unbiased' chap.

Hey, weren't you on that graveyard expedition with Seraphina, too?

Babs if you are reffering to me with

"Now here's another 'unbiased' chap."

I suggest you reread my post where I have stated I am biased....

Possibly, though no natural sources of electro-magnetic radiation come to mind that could affect non-metallic objects. Maybe things like empty soda cans or such, but even then there would be enough power for a person to be able to locate the source fairly easily. When you are talking about interacting with non-metallic objects, then you are dealing with enormous amounts of power. The electromagnetic generator they use to cancel out gravity and levitate a two gram tree frog into the air is a massive 2 ton device that drinks electricity by the bucketful.

When you talk about objects moving during paranormal phenomena, my cynical self tends to turn a skeptical eye on the people present at the time. I cannot emphasize enough how essential it is to begin at the beginning, not at the conclusion. If a person claims that a pencil teleported into the room or a lamp flew threw the air, my first step is not "Ah, paranormal phenomena! How did this happen?", but rather "Ah, an unsubtantiated claim! Did it happen in the first place?". I am not going to waste time and energy trying to explain an event that might well not have existed to begin with.

NO, I'm talking real events. The first thing I think about is the 'negative' as you suggested, but don't we all think that way? First, you try to find the 'mundane' or ordinary cause of an event; you never jump to paranormal conclusions.

So, you are saying science hasn't discovered a way, yet, for non-metallic objects to be moved? Do you think it will be possible?

Think outside the 'scientist' box for a second...what if you found that is true that non-metallic objects were being moved? How do you think this could happen?

Unfortunately, not very many 'paranormal investigators' think this way. I would go as far as to say that the people who do are limited to professional or experienced investigators. It is simply a human condition to want an answer, and to work for it. Unfortunately, the easiest path to that is to have a conclusion beforehand. It is all well and good to think that you are talking about real events, but do you think they are real because you have researched them, or because you have read about it and accepted it as being true? Have you found the corroborating evidence that the stories occured as told? That would be the first step in assuming the negative.



The closest science has gotten to moving non-metallic objects with electromagnetic force is by negating gravity, so only in a circular fashion that requires very high amounts of power. I personally do not believe it will be possible due to the effects of the quantum world not being able to be translated into the macro world, but connections have been made before and it is entirely possible that my prediction is wrong about that.



Not to put too fine a point on it, but even if I were faced with clear, unavoidable proof of the paranormal, even if I accepted it with all my heart and soul and shouted out my belief from the rooftops for the world to hear, I would still limit myself intentionally to the 'scientist box'.

See, the problem with not doing so is that anything that I say, no matter how scientific it sounds, will be nothing more than mere speculation. Without proof of existance of the phenomena, without imperical evidence or logical reasoning, saying that non-metallic objects are moved by ghosts is just as valid as saying that they are moved by electromagnetic forces or even by photon fields from ancient martian prank machines on the moon.

I am not all that interested in possibilities. Possibilities are a dime a dozen, and anybody with an open-mind can come up with fifty of them at a go. What I am interested in are solutions, and the best way that they can be found is through scientific methodology. It is currently the only system for exploration and verification that can review evidence objectively and submits interpretation to peer review to limit the effects of subjectivity.

But how can we ever get anywhere if we don't think about the possiblities?

In science, you come up with a possibility. Yes, one that is plausible and has already been identified as a strong possibility. It is then tested to see whether this possibility, or hypothesis, is correct.

Of course, if I'm wrong about that, correct me.

How can we work anything out if we haven't got things to choose from and test?

I do agree though that these possibilities can't just be remotely possible but be fairly possible. There's no point in testing whether it's done by martians if it's even more likely that it was done by people who have the means and motive.

I'm going to stop saying possible/possibility now...



Potholer

Ah, and you put your finger right on the problem here. There is a difference in approach between an investigation and scientific research. To many wannabe scientists go to the site of a paranormal event and start spouting pseudoscientific theories under the guise of "Were are researching scientifically." Bollocks. They are conducting an investigation, not research. An investigation does not begin with possibilities, but with clues and evidence. The conclusion comes from the logical path that they present. Scientific research, on the other hand, does begin with a hypothesis. A hypothesis is the possibility that you have chosen to test for validity. By the time that you have reached this stage of your research, you have a very well defined phenomena that you are investigating. You have precisely measured and quantifiable numbers to work with. You have limited the amount of variables to the greatest extent possible. None of this is true with an investigation. Investigations, by their very nature, are full of gaps and holes that have to be filled in from the bottom up.

Treating an investigation like research will lead you nowhere. You simply do not have the data that you need to verify your hypothesis. If you approach a crop circle, for instance, as if you were researching the UFO phenomena, then what you are trying to do is confirm the UFO hypothesis with the data from the field. Unfortunately, the data is nowhere near as accurate and well-defined as it needs to be in order to be used for research. Instead of deciding on a single hypothesis, you need to look at the evidence and follow where it takes you, no matter how unusual (paranormal) or dull (real life) the conclusion may be.

That was very well put aquatus, thanks for clearing that up .

So, really, the problem that is faced with the skeptics and believers is that both groups are trying to prove something - either that a phenomenon isn't paranormal or that it is - and therefore it isn't unbiased research as it should be but somewhat biased investigation.

What do you think?



Potholer

Right, except I feel the need to expand just a bit more. And here is where I am going to show my admittedly biased interpretation of events.

Skeptics are generally not trying to prove anything. The only thing they have a vested interest in is scientific methodology. They will try to protect the integrity of that in the same way that believers will protect their beliefs in UFOs or ghosts. If a believer claims that "I think that ghosts did this.", a skeptic can either nod agreeably or state a different opinion. If a believer, however, claims "It has been scientifically proven that ghosts did this.", then at that point the skeptic will feel that his system are being misinterpreted, and will, of course, defend them vigorously.

What a skeptic defends is not a belief, but rather a system of analytical investigation and research. There are very specific ways in which investigations are conducted, there are very specific guidelines that scientific methodology must follow. Not doing so invalidates the entire procedure. When a skeptic makes an objection, he is generally not focusing so much on the phenomena, but rather on the manner in which the conclusion was arrived at.

So let's get back to the example that Phenomena brought up. According to him, he was wide awake when he levitated off the bed. He called to his wife and fell back onto the bed. To him, this was a paranormal occurance.

A skeptic, however, cannot approach this from the viewpoint that a paranormal event occured. This is not research, where a single hypothesis is being tested with only a single unknown variable to account for. There are many unknowns in this equation. A skeptic must approach this as an investigation, and investigations rely on imperical evidence and logical arguments. Subjective evidence is only a guide, if that, and is usually so unreliable that even courts of law tend to consider personal testimony something short of circumstancial evidence.

So an investigator looks at the situation. Subjectively, the claim is that the person was wide awake. Objectively, however, it was late at night, the person was lying back in a bed getting ready to sleep, and there is really no way to verify what his mental capacity was at the time. Because of that, the investigator assumes the negative; that the person was wrong or is lying. It is at this point that the average believer takes offense, as they automatically assume that this is an impingement on their honor. It is not, however; it is simply a technique for investigation. Now, scientific research has established, through the process of eliminating every possible factor but the one that was being tested, that a person can be asleep or in a hynogogic state (just prior to sleep) and still claim that they were wide awake. Research has shown this to be the most common state under these given circumstances. An investigator would take the imperical evidence (hynogogic state), link it with the one scene situation (person on bed, late at night), and make the logical connection (good chance of the person not being wide awake, but thinking that they were). That is what an investigator does: he links clues and evidence, with the ability for the phenomena to occur, and makes the logical connection.

A believer does none of this. A believer considers subjective evidence to be just as valid as objective evidence, particularly when it comes from himself. A favorite refrain of believers is "You could only believe it if it happened to you.". A skeptic, however, is fully aware of how easily the human senses can be fooled, and knows full well that seeing is most definitely not believing.

I am glad you brought this out, I am understanding more about the skeptic and believer now. I agree with everything you have said. I didn't read phenonomen's experience, but I see what you are saying about his experience and have to agree with you. (on what you have said, that is)

Now, I'm talking about an experience my husband and I had... and the hotel we were in, backed it up. I am skeptical about every paranormal event, but as I experience these events, it is getting harder and harder to remain skeptical.

That is why I am asking you these questions...I know science has admitted it was wrong on occasion and I can see science admitting it is wrong again, about some events in the 'paranormal'. (Or they will discover something that they thought was impossible...) ....Meanwhile, I'm hoping to get answers for my experiences.

Well, if you would like, I can give you a logical and likely explanation, with the understanding, as you now know, that no matter how likely and logical it is, there will always be the possibility that it is incorrect. Science can, after all, only work with what it has. And what it doesn't have covers quite a bit of ground.

aquatus....I have put this on the board before, but not in-depth. My husband and I went to Gettysburg; we were there for the history and, of course, I was there for the 'haunted part'. Gettysburg, Pennsyvania is the most haunted location on earth_well one of them anyway.

We went onto the battlefields and got photos of orbs; a storm broke out and I got some of the most interesting phenomenon that I've ever seen. Red and green solid-like color on the film..white orbs shooting around and upward in motion etc. etc. On the day before the storm, I visited a barn and home where they kept horses. As we drove down a lane not far from this house my husband got out to take a picture of another old homested. All of a sudden I could smell animal (in our new car with the windows up) and I thought, "Where is that coming from?"...I smelled my hands and it was very strong 'on my hands'. And then, as suddenly as it came_ it left. There wasn't any smell. I thought to myself, I was all over that barn and touched it and smelled may hands afterwards, there was nothing, nothing I could smell (I was looking for smells or life of long ago, especially since I love horses).

Later that night we went on a ghost tour and the guide told us that ghosts can not only appear in orbs in photos or as apparitions to people (or noises), but even as smells. I was flabbergasted! I didn't know that. The guide also then said that so many horses were killed on the battlefield that people even smell the ghosts of horses. The soldiers wore furs _ when the fur got wet it had an 'animal smell' to it.

When I went to Gettysburg I didn't think I would find anything. I was out looking all over for ghosts on the battlefield and in the town... and guess what?!... I had ghosts back in my room.

This is the real clincher. I came back to the room and took a shower, it was evening around 7 pm. I came out of my shower and saw the pillows on one of the beds out of the covers and propped up as if someone was getting ready for bed or watch tv. My husband had the room next to me. He was busy getting some film for the cameras and my door was locked_ only I had the key. I asked my husband if he had put the pillows like that and he said, no. He told me to call the desk to see if maid service had done it. Of course I said that the maids don't do that!...in all my traveling days I've never seen the cleaning ladies do that (...no matter, 'hotel or motel' ).

Well, I called down to the desk and the desk said that the cleaning ladies leave at 5 pm, and that, "No"_ they couldn't have done that." This was 7 pm and as I said before, the bed wasn't like that before my shower. That gave me the chills_it had to have happened while I was in the shower. That was when I asked the desk if this hotel was haunted.

They said, "Well, we don't advertize it for obvious reasons_some people don't like that 'sort of thing' and we'd lose customers_ but ,yes, it is haunted!" They said that they have had customers come to the desk and talk about how nice it was talking to the clerk in 'period dress' and go on about their stay, when they had to tell them that no one was in period dress that day. There were many other incidents with ghosts, they told me, but that a fella on night shift could tell me more. The night clerk had actually seen some ghosts and knows all the stories. He comes on duty at 11 pm and I could call down and talk to him.

I was elated...this is was what I had come for. Here I am looking all over the grounds for ghosts and they are right here in my hotel room.

I hung up and told my husband the story and he still doesn't believe it at this point, but is now taking it more seriously because of hotel verification.

We got two rooms and now I am afraid to stay in my room by myself. I was going to ask him to come back and stay with me... but we had already paid for the rooms, so I didn't ask. I also thought I can 'brave this night out' with a ghost. I can tell you, I had a hard hard time going to sleep. I had one eye 'glued' to that bed where the pillows were propped up and when I would wake, that's the first thing I would look at. Those pillows. As my husband was going to his room, I told him that maybe the ghost will come to his room and get in 'his' face. It's like the ghost wanted me to see it, right in your face sort of thing. Anyway, the desk told me that a room on the 3rd floor, a couple of rooms down from ours, was haunted. (I guess the ghost moves )

The next morning we packed up and left, but before departing my husband had an experience in his room, that night, he will never forget. He didn't use a wash cloth and didn't take a shower that evening, but when he got up that morning there was an 'old worn and tattered wash cloth' there on the basin (right where he would wash his face). He said it was all gauzy and filmy. It started off, at the top, normal... and as it went down it became tattered and see-through_ finally going into strands_ as if shredded. I asked him tons of questions. It seems that the ghost or 'thing' knew what we were talking about and acted accordingly. The ghost moves from room to room, obviously. And talk about 'getting in your face!'....A face cloth, right at the sink, first thing, in the morning.

My husband didn't tell me about his experience, as I was scared, and told him that maybe a ghost may come home with us (I had read about such things) so, he didn't tell me this till much later, when he thought I could handle it.

He 'teared up' when he told me. He said, "I wondered if the maid had come in.... but the door was BOLTED."

Okay, it has been quite awhile since this thread was active, so please, let me toss in my disclaimer here once again. I will, to the best of my ability, explain how this phenomena could have occurred from the scientific and investigative standpoint. This is not to say that it could not have been ghosts, or a hotel hoax, or an army of invisible ninjas doing everything, but rather what the most simple and supported possibility is most likely to have occured. Right now, the first thing that I notice is that you were going into this situation with the knowledge and expectation that this was and would hopefully prove to be the "most haunted place in America". This is bound to influence your state of mind.



Currently, the most common and verified cause of "orbs" is dust particles. In the pre-storm environment, with the gusts and movements that it entails, there is little surprise that swirls of "orb" dust should be caught on film. I am not a professional photographer; in fact, I am such an amateur that red and green streaks on my pictures are more than norm than the exception, so other than to call it film error (that's always my excuse), I couldn't tell you what the cause was.



There is a very interesting aspect to the sense of smell. It can, at will apparently, become deadened to a specific scent, but not to others. A person working at a glue factory will cease to smell the strong odors after about fifteen minutes of exposure, and yet will still be able to smell a rose, should the opportunity arise. If the person were to concentrate on it, they would smell the glue once again as well. This is thought to be a residual effect from a time where our sense of smell played a much more important role in our survival, and acute control was necessary.

So, think of this scenario: You go to the farm and get throughly horsied up. You revel in the smell for a goodly amount of time, till eventually your nose becomes tired of it and turns it off. Since, after your initial nostalgic sniffs, you were busy taking pictures and checking out the barn, you didn't really notice when this happened, until, on your way out, you took one last whiff and were a little dissappointed at not smelling anything. Regardless, you got back into the car with your better half (the one not smelling like a horse), and forgot about the smell as you chatted going down the road. At one point, your husband stopped the car and got out, yet you remained behin. Now, in the quiet car, with no other smells interfering, with your mind going back to the horses, you once again sniffed your hands and, boom, there it was again, the smell of horse. The mind, alerted that a smell they had cancelled payment on was suddenly back, promptly canceled the odor once more.



Personally, I am fairly accustomed to having the maids turn over the beds for me, so I wouldn't have given such a thing a second thought, but apparently you checked into that. I really can't give you an explanation for this other than I am looking at my pillow right now, and it is leaned up against the headboard ready for me to lean back on it, and I cannot, for the life of me, recall putting it there. It is possible that a ghost did it, I suppose, however it is far more likely that I did it automatically, busy thinking about other matters at the time.

Incidentally, the investigator in me turned up an eyebrow at your husband having a seperate room during your vacation, as well as calling down to the desk to ask if anyone had been in your room to prop up pillows. It really isn't the kind of thing regularly done, unless a person is already predisposed to believe that something other than the people present was at work re-arranging furniture.



Ah, right, sorry, but this has all the earmarks of a snow job. If hotels have a ghost, they darn well make absolutely sure as many people as possible know about it. Oh, they don't advertise, heck, that would kill all the mystery, but they have no problem whatsoever letting the rumor mill do its work. There is no fear whatsoever of losing customers because of a ghost story; no, this type of thing only serves to draw in a bigger crowd. Tales of guests talking to ghosts without noticing, etc, these are stock tales that people eagerly swallow, without remembering that the average ghost sighting is an ephemereal mist that fades away without a sound, not a solid, physical apparation that engages in long talks.



And this, quite likely, is the single most powerful reason you experienced all you did: because you both expected and wanted to, even if you weren't thinking it at the time.

Like I said, without being there, without getting a few more details and seeing your reactions to questions, as well as the location and people resposible, there is very little that I can confirm beyond all shadow of a doubt, but frankly, it sounds like you did a pretty good job of scaring yourself before and during your vacation, to the point were even the most mundane thing seemed to have a supernatural edge to them.

Oh yeah....thanks for posting here man, I forgot

Sera wanted me to post, when I had the time, that the whole thing that started this thread did, in fact, happen, as there were a few doubters.



There I am



There I am too



One more time honey

Etc, etc...

Now, on to what he said...



This, to me, is the reason for 99% of supernatural experiences...people WANT to believe they encountered something profound, and are willing to convince themselves of it, regardless of what they actually saw.

wow this topic is still going btw ghosts are real and dont forget that

Prove it

aquatus... First, there wasn't any smell at the barn where they kept the horses...the horses were back in the 1800's. I was looking around touching things to see if I could pick up any feelings or vibrations, you know, like some people can...and I got a BIG NOTHING! There wasn't a smell to the place at all... and you couldn't go into the barn it was locked. This is a historical place that is kept locked-tight, no one can go in there except the help to maintain the property.

So, when I drove down the lane to the next homestead there was no scent. None, whatsoever in my vehicle. The scent that permeated my car was that of 'animal'. I smelled animal and the guide on our ghost tour, that evening, told us that the soldiers wore animal furs. When the animal furs got wet they smelled. I'll get picky here and say I didn't smell horses (being in horses for 25 years I know what they smell like)..."I smelled animal". Like a dog or something in the car_ a wet dog. And it was on my hands too, especially on my hands the strong smell as if it was coming from my hands. The same way the smell had enveloped my car, it left ....all of a sudden.

Another thing is: I didn't think I was going to see any ghosts on our trip_I DIDN'T BELIEVE IN GHOSTS! And I was kind of 'down' because I didn't see my husband and myself experiencing anything, but the history of Gettysburg. I have had other paranormal experiences, quite a few actually, but I didn't believe in ghosts. Every step of the way I have been skeptical about each paranormal phenomena that I have experienced.

You didn't address the washcloth. My husband has been skeptical too, for many years; he went to Gettysburg for the history, you see, but now knows there is something out there, something we don't know anything about.

...got to go, but I would like to address more of your arguments later.

why should i have to prove it when its already proven that they are real