Show me the proof that ghosts are real. Something supernatural.

Actually, I would tend to agree, ghosts do exist, in a manner of speaking. People sometimes see something, and say its a ghost. Sometimes they feel cold, and say its a ghost. Fine. I'm willing to accept them saying its a ghost... but they havent proven that its not a natural occurance which they're giving a supernatural definition to.

Disprove it!

Damn, you beat me to that one, Babs!

Hi Elvis ...OMG!....love your avatar.

Going by Babs idea.... I am god. Disprove it

Curious.

aquatus....I don't want to argue with you, I really want some answers and if you could help me figure this out or give me more to ponder, I'd be grateful.



Now you want to get personal... That's no mystery at all. When I travel I like to know where I'm at_ when I wake up in the night, or in the morning, I don't like to feel disoriented. So, I like the lights on and the tv going all night, just something I've gotten into lately. And, my husband likes the room dark, pitch black_ no noise. Funny, it's practically the opposite when we're at home. I can understand me not wanting the light on or noise at home, but my husband wants light on at home...go figure him? Anyway, before we left, we called the hotel and figured we'd try adjoining rooms, this time, on vacation, instead of suffering through. The hotel said, yes, they had adjoining rooms for us and if we got there and for some unknown reason there wouldn't be an adjoining room they'd give us rooms side-by-side. Well that was going a bit far, but we figured they'd be true to their word and have the adjoining suite Wrong! When we got there all they had were rooms side-by-side, so we unhappily took it. I bet that was more than you wanted to know but we have to be scientific here.

Okay...another thing you said about my husband phoning down to the desk; my husband didn't phone down to the desk, I did. He told me to phone the desk because he didn't 'believe' the pillows did that by themselves. He has always dismissed these things and is a skeptic too...or was one. I assure you, aquatus, I am a serious-minded person as is my husband and we would search for the mundane before jumping to paranormal conclusions. Also, aquatus, you said that 'you' are accustomed to having your bed turned down by the service. Either you are used to real up-scale service or I'm living on another planet. Only a few times in my life have the service come in and done that. Plus, my bed wasn't turned down like a maid would turn it down, I looked at the bed very carefully. It looked like the pillows were lifted out and put on top of the coverlet_ and then the bedspread was just sort of loosely tucked under the mattress. You know, as if someone was going to casually watch tv.

You said the hotel was giving me a snow job. I could see that happening in some of the hotels as that would be their only source of income or means of drumming up business. Some of the small hotels or bed-in-breakfasts' do just that, but not all of them... and the big hotels don't have to do that. This hotel was upscale and in the center of town. It is the 'historic Gettysburg Hotel' established in 1797, owned by Best Western. It looks like a little 'White House'. It's directly across the street from where Abraham Lincoln stayed and wrote the "Gettysburg Address". I assure you it is a beauty_center of the center of town. This hotel wouldn't need to offer ghosts to get business, they have all the business they can handle; I had to get on a 9 months' list to go back for the civil war re-enactment.

Now, to get back to the washcloth. You don't know how much I wish my husband had brought it back. But he did it for me, he knew I would be afraid.

I'm not afraid now and I would give anything to have it. I could have had it tested. I wanted to know if the cloth was old or new_you know, if the cloth looked like the other cloths the hotel provided or if it was different. My husband said it was white like the other cloths, but that it looked very old as it was tattered and see-through, falling off to strands at the bottom as if shredded. You can see where I am going here. I wondered if the ghost had torn one of the hotel's cloths up... or brought a cloth from another dimension? That would mean it materialized. ..... And, I wondered what the hotel thought when the help came in to clean up?

Would the cloth even still be there?

If anyone has an opinion on this or information that could help me, I would appreciate it, I would love to learn more.

....requesting help

Babs, really, there isn't much else I can do. I find it really difficult to believe that you did not think ghosts existed prior to going on this trip; everything that I have read from you, especially the story you posted, screams that even before this trip you did indeed have a desire to see ghosts.

This is more investigative work than scientific research. Without going in depth, and I mean long talks with everyone involved, research into the background of the hotel and the people who work there, and study into your actual persona, there is little else I can offer. To be prefectly frank, I am of the opinion that the whole thing is either a story cooked up by yourself out of curiosity as to what my response would be, or more likely, that you simply scared yourself, regardless of whether you acknowledge a believe in ghosts or not, into experiencing what you did. But, once again, that is simply my opinion, and that plus five bucks will get you a coffee at Starbucks. Explanations for human phenomena are simply not cut and dried, black and white, particularly in science, where nothing is as simple as popular opinion would like it to be.

Disprove ghosts? Ridiculous thing to ask...why should I have to disprove a concept that has, quite frankly, lost contact with reality? It is, whether you like it or not, the responsibility of the person making the claim to prove that it's true.



Praise be to Subby for such a fine example. All of you who take such a ridiculous veiw of substantiating the paranormal must now, by your own system, believe him to be God.

Bring him gifts, for he is your lord and master!

aquatus....I don't lie_ and I don't make up stories.

This tells me that you find this experience incredulous, which is what I thought you might say, though I am disappointed. I thought, just maybe, you could come up with something. Maybe something I could do... or something I could test.

I didn't believe in ghosts, although I have had paranormal experiences, but they were't ghost experiences. And frankly, I didn't think ghosts existed. I'm not sure what this thing was...I'm calling it 'ghosts' because others have called it ghosts. I don't really know what this phenomena is. I admit, the first thing I thought about was, I might be doing this 'myself'_ creating this experience for myself. Maybe I have psychokinetic powers. But then my husband saw something, too. Could I have made something materialize for him? But then I thought, no, that can't be it. I went to Gettysburg and that's where this happened. Many people go to Gettysburg and things like this happen to them....that's why the place is called 'haunted Gettysburg'.

So, it's not me. It's location, location, location! I came home and nothing happened. I go there and I experience a ghost. Makes sense.

You know, I thought, maybe, it was all in my head. But then you have my husband's experience_ and the hotel people_ and all of Gettysburg. So, no, it isn't in my head.

You know, I was an atheist for many years. I didn't believe in anything. I was a thinker, not a believer.

You know you have skeptics and you have believers, I was a skeptic. I am, now, a knower. I skipped believer. I am in this new group. I have experienced the 'paranormal. Only people that have [/I]experienced the paranormal[I], know what I am talking about.

Ummm hate to say this, but thinking that you know all after some incidents that happened in your own life which you believe to be paranormal, would still make you a believer.....

A knower would be able to explain why, how and when it'll happen again. A believer is someone who is sure they are right...... but has no proof.

I believe for example that all dogs are non-violent, as I have nver seen a violent dogs. I could claim that I know dogs, but in the end...Its still my belief of my own experiances that gives me that thought, not actual knowledge of the subject.....


And babs just a word of advise



Might want to edit that now, as all that says is you used to think, but not anymore....lol

Subtemperate....

Could you get off your high-horse and offer something of value?

After you

Come on now folks, lets try to be nice to each other...

He did

What Subby was pointing out is that "knowing" something, first requires a some kind of impirical data to explain why it was a fact, why you think it's a fact, and how the exact same thing could occur again, under the same circumstances.

Not to rehash an old example, but it's rather like evolution compaired to creationism....someone who believed in evolution, when asked "why do you believe it?", will be able to explain exactly why they do, using actual facts and figures. This is an example of "knowing".

Ask the same question to a creationist, and they'll probably reply "because I have faith in god", or something like that. This, my dear, is "believing".

I could "think", for example, that I saw Sean Connery in the back seat of a taxi driving down Glasgow road. It would not, however, mean that I actually saw him, nor would it mean I "knew" I saw him...merely that I believed I had

Witnessing something is not the same as knowing it. In order to know something to be a fact, it must first be established as one.

Try getting naked, cutting yourself, and shouting blasphemy in the graveyard. Actually, on second thought, best you don't try that....

*chuckles*

I'm so glad you are not like the "Kiddie Kinetics" who plague the metaphysics forum. They seem to look for any sign possible that what they are looking for might exist, but never seem to be able to tell them to us. Sure, if I went to a graveyard, I could see some weird mist of a light in the sky. And the mist could be fog, and the light a plane, but if I were easily fooled, or downright naive, I would think that was evidence of a spirit. Boo to the naive!

I only read your first sentence.....Damn my lack of concentration

If only I did it at night, and not during a service

Do not forget this most wholesome creature. We saw him during our last visit to the cemetary. Yes! And we got a snapshot just for you all!

I would like to address what you said Sera, but I only have a few minutes. Having grown up knowing something that is considered a myth, that I see every waking minute, of every waking day...I think I'm qualified to give you an answer.

Imagine you're in a room with 30 of your classmates. You are all looking at the same thing and everyone else in the room is seeing something besides what you are seeing. This has happened your whole life, it's nothing new. But, it is believed by the majority of the population to be a fact that it's an impossibility. What you are seeing cannot be what you are seeing because most of the scientific studies say it's not possible.

You never do experiments, because you know it to be a fact. Regardless of what other people tell you, you just have to be secure in the fact that you know it's true. People that you feel close enough to you reveal your secret say they believe you but they are only patronising you.

One day you decide to go and get tested, just out of curiosity, at about 26 years old. By then, the myth is still out there but it has been disproven by most. You go through a lengthy expensive test and the "expert" confirms what you have known all your life. YES...it has been confirmed!!!! By an EXPERT!!!!!!
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I AM COLOR-BLIND! You mean everything isn't black and white? (Sorry, couldn't help but throw that pun in there. )

As your own story pointed out, you underwent tests to confirm that you were, infact, colourblind. This is an example of evidence backing up your claim.

In any event, claiming to be colourblind is not the same as claiming you saw a ghost. One claim exists within the realms of possibility, and is an established medical condition, that is no way highly unlikely, or fantastical. Claiming to have seen a ghost, without any evidence to back up such a claim, is a very different thing altogether.

Not really Shadowsleet. I'm a little older than you, and way back then it was believed that women were absolutely NEVER color-blind. Yes, I could have been tested, but even if I had been there would have been no proof to back up what I said I was seeing. How can you back up what you see and feel? You can say you're so sorry for something that you did to another person but that doesn't mean you really are.

I'm just saying that there is no way to prove that you are seeing, feeling, or hearing a ghost. Tell me... if you saw something, that absolutely turned everything you've ever known to be true upside down in you're reality how would you try to prove it? It may be a once in a lifetime event, but it had a profound affect on you that you wanted to share. You can't recreate that and it's ridiculous to think that anyone can. You can go back to the same place time after time after time, but that doesn't mean you can recreate the same circumstances.

(joke) Oh ghost, come back to me. I have brought witnesses and a camera that must have verification. Please, oh please, show them so that I won't get put in the loony bin.

Logically, I would conclude that something so far removed from reality could not possibly have occured, and I would look at other alternatives for what I saw. Only after I had eliminated all of the logical possibilities, would I turn the paranormal...this is something more people who make claims of encounters have not even attempted to do.

Okay... you've looked at all the other alternatives and found no explanations. Now, what do you do?

Not everyone that has ever seen something that can't be explained suddenly starts saying that they've seen a ghost. That's what I find so remarkable about people. They think that just because you've seen, felt or heard something that you don't have a brain in you're head and that you are a fool. You don't think that intelligent people have ever evaluated their own situations and come to an irrefutable conclusion? Noooooo...we don't eleminate all the logical possibilities first.

"They think that just because you've seen, felt or heard something that you don't have a brain in you're head and that you are a fool"

I dont think anyone has said that, I dont think anyone doubts someone who has seen something they cant expalin to be foolish.....

However the human brain is a very powerful thing. If you have your arm amputated, you can feel itchy in the part of the arm that is no longer there. While you are sleeping, your brain can recall tastes and smells and let you feel these in your sleep.

Using your own analogy, the problem that you described in proving that your colorblind is very similar, as because it is your brain, which is internal, no-one else can understand what your seeing...... I feel this is much the same as many paranormal events, as its more the human brain...then actual ghosts and such.....

This would explain why they seemingly cannot prove to all that ghosts exist, and those who have seen them cannot be proven otherwise....

Very well put Subby...

If I could just butt in ...



You're heading into uncharted waters with this one...to date, I've never come across a paranormal experience that could not offer up a possible explanation for what occured with established realms of possibility. Certainly, I've never read of one on this board that didn't.

If such a thing were to happen, then I think time would be taken to discuss the event with others, to try and come to a conclusion of what occured....that sounds me like what Shady would do anyway, and it's what I would do. I still see no conclusions being leapt to, or people rushing off to post on forums that they saw a ghost, before they seriously thought about what had actually happened

The fact that so many paranormal encounters on this board, within the space of a few questions, can so easily be deconstructed by we skeptics is enough to show how little time the 'believers' actually spend thinking about their experience, and looking for any kind of logical explanation....the fact that they usually get so amazingly angry when you offer one also shows their unwillingness to believe they had anything but a paranormal encounter Wanting to believe something is the first step towards convincing yourself it happened when it didn't.

After viewing that...I have decided you need to shave your chops dear snuffy. White isnt a color that suits you.... )

my dead grandma came to visit me in my dream last week she said something about 100 years i know that i wont be here but i wonder what she ment

Wow, amazing, you had a dream... about your dead grandma... and therefor, it was her communicating to you from the dead? Way to jump to conslusions there!

yes i know she was there and dont insult me ok maybe if you wasent so negative about everything maybe your dead relatives would come visit you to why dont you think about that

I doubt it's whether or not Stellar's negative or not that influences whether or not his dead relatives pop in for a chat...more likely, the possibility of this occuring is limited by his grasp of reality.

Honestly Blazer, sometimes I'm willing to give people you make claims like this a bit of patience...I have none for you. Having looked through the site, you've claimed to have had just about every kind of paranormal encounter imaginable, and I find many of your stories incredibly hard to believe.

I don't honestly care if you believe in this stuff or not...just stop making up rubbish in some sad quest for attention.

Skeptical Enquirer, one of the biggest and well known of all skeptical magazines still have "occurences" that remain unexplained.

There isn't always a logical explanation to something and just because an explanation thrown forward doesn't meet with our agreement does not mean we believe no matter what.

This does not in the slightest prove that she was visiting you, why jump to the conclusion. Take a step back and look at it logically. You have already stated you were dreaming, isn't this the most logical reasoning?

It doesn't disprove either.

Why is it we feel like WE should be the ones to prove things, as we can't prove neither can the skeptic (although most of you are not skeptics, merely narrow minded and eyes closed tight people).

....had to laugh, that was a good one.

touche', Michelle

Thnx Babs, I thought so.

It is a good point though. If a respectable person claims to have experienced something possibly "paranormal" they are offered what is known as a logical explanation. That doesn't mean that the explanation is correct. If we dare debunk it we are seen as closed minded to science or logic.

So basically, anyone who doesn't agree with outragious claims, that offer not the slightest scrap of proof, is one of these "narrow minded and eyes closed tight people"?

I'd rather be one of them than gullible and so open to suggestion as those at the opposite end of the scale



I don't think anyone has ever suggested the the logical explanation offered for any given encounter is the correct one...merely the most likely. And, until we're given reason to believe in the far less likely option of some kind of paranormal intervention, the logical explanation shall remain the most likely.

phenomenon.... still laughing ...YES. It cuts both ways.

And there speaks the voice of inexperience and ignorance, welcome to a very big club. Such an ironic members title you have there.



Ahhhh...to assume to assume to assume. I didn't say that.

You talk about proof, that's the problem, you can't prove it isn't real just as we can't prove it is.



So a genuine event that someone sees as possibly paranormal means they are gullible and open to suggestion? I do hope that you encounter something you can't explain and then come back with that "typical" response!



Always Babs, always. You can almost feel the anger these skeptics have through your pc.

So let me understand this....I take your statement, quite clearly accusing members of the board of...actually, forget "accusing", it was an open insult to some members of the board, and my calling you on it makes me "assuming"...

Yet you take my statement, and draw it up as a blanket opinion of everyone and anyone who has had a paranormal experience, and it's perfectly okay?

If you're going to try and argue with me, don't make it so easy It's pretty clear already that you're not only extremely biased, but you're an absolute hypocrite. Please, I beg of you, go find another thread to pollute

Now now young man, let's keep this friendly.



I said most, not all. Read it dear boy and then tell me I am wrong.



That's just it young man, i'm not a hypocrite. Having spent many years in this field I have always had a healthy dose of skepticism coursing through my wise old vains. I don't believe everything I see, hear or read.

Biased? no! I do believe in the paranormal but that's not to say I believe every phenomena or every story I am sent.

My whole issue is that I believe in the paranormal, that's not to say I will believe everything I hear.

Which of course makes it a far less thinly veiled insult By the way, if you don't stop calling me young man, I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon and refer to you exclusivly as "Mr P".



In that case, do you or do you not agree that, if a logical explanation for a paranormal encounter is offered up, then it is (existing as it does within the realms of logic and fact) by default the most likely explanation? This is one of the main themes of any skeptics appraisal of an encounter.

As I said previously, such an explanation is not automatically correct...saying so would be ridiculous, as it's impossible for almost any situation to say, without a doubt, what actually happened....however, when there has yet to be a "more likely" possibility that actually went in line with the paranormal, this does speak volumes.

No, I don't.

It makes it a possibility, but necessarily the more likely of the two. Each individual case is different and should be treated as such.

Well in that case, to my mind, you've left the realm of annalysing an encounter seriously, and passed into the one where you actually 'want' it to be a paranormal encounter. A probable cause of an event that can be explained through the use of logic and current knowledge should, quite frankly, be regarded as the most likely - the absolute, definate truth? No. But certainly the most likely.

From there, you can attempt to eliminate that as a possibility...until such time as you do, it remains the most likely.

If you're going to dismiss fact in the persuit of supposition, then you're not exactly trying to find the truth anymore. You're just trying to find what you want to read into things.

Don't be silly. Your comment was far too general. You have to take each individual case on its merits, as I have done for many a year. It's like I said, this method has proven to me that certain instances are explainable and some are not.

I always want it to be paranormal, sadly it isn't like that but along with this I have an open mind and suggestion doesn't come in to it.

Perhaps you'd like to give an example on some encounters that you consider worthy of approaching from different angles, to demonstrate why you would do so?

They're all worthy of such consideration, it's the only way to approach the subject.

Buy my next book.