You did.



Twenty inches is nearly two feet. In the same article, you describe yourself as a "big lad", and I find it very hard to believe that even a small person would not make a significant impact, and noise, dropping back to the matress....

In fact, the matress would like have been damaged on some way, springs broken, or nearby objects knocked over. If you wife was not aware of your crash landing, then it certainly throws a little bit of doubt on whether or not it occured.

You've contradicted your own quote.

My legs were raised!! not my entire person. There's a huge difference between a 16 stone man hitting a matress from 20 or so inches (approx) and a pair of legs falling back down to a matress. I doubt that could be described as a crash, or indeed would it break any springs.

Don't take this the wrong way but your analogy is typical of a skeptic. You are actually building this up it too something a little different from what I have stated. Your use of grammar is turning this in to a dramatic event. Crash bang wallop!!

It was never actually like that.

How much higher were your legs than the rest of you?

20 inches, you quoted it yourself, lol. and for confusions sake my top half was bed bound and it was my feet that reached this extremity.

*Seraphina stands up, and goes towards her bed. Collecting a few random books lying around, she constructs a small pile approximately twenty inches high.

Lies down, and puts her feet on top of the pile....comes back*

I can see them quite clearly without using "the corner of my eye"...what I cannot see, however, is the matress. Therefore, there is no way I (or you) could gauge the distance. The only reason I know my feet are twenty inches up, is because I know how tall the pile of books is.

Without that, they could be twenty inches up, or a few centimetres...I'd not know.

When you say twenty inches...you didn't *gasp, shock, horror*...make it up, did you?

*goes back, places feet on the books again. Calls up mother, and instructs her to remove books....gets a funny look, but the request is granted. Lets feet fall to the matress.*

*comes back*

I am 5'10, and weigh 120lbs. My legs alone striking the matress created quite the impact; the rest of my body was forced to move with the landing, and my bedside table shook. At sixteen stone, that makes you 224 lbs....that's over 100lbs more than me; Even if it was only your legs striking the matress, you are still likely to have caused damage to the springs, and to have created an impact significant enough for your wife to have noticed it.

This is, however, provided you gauged the distance accurately...if, however, you merely assumed "20 inches", it casts significant doubt on the rest of your story.

Nice try, but assumptions seem to be your forte.

The way I lay on the bed it's possible to to see out of the corner of my eye and guesstimate the height, i didn't measure it, I guessed it.

No, I didn't make it up and to be honest all I have read are responses that have suggested my making this up, problem is I didnt.

If you dropped your legs and your bed side locker shook I suggest you buy a blanket for you tent and try that. As for me, The facts I wrote are as they happened. They are as clear today as yesterday. You have read this thread and added your own details to my version...crash landed, sleepy, the usual skeptic stuff.

I respond well to educated and accurate analogies, not possibles and maybes.

As for the springs, I'm sure there are a few of us who have dabbled in the pleasures of life. Bed springs take far more than a pair of long legs to break them.

I challenge anyone to lift their legs and smack them down on to a bed and cause furntiure to shake. Simply not possible unless you have bad floors or no floors.

I don't think you made it up...I just think you dreamt it, or otherwise imagined it You asked me for an explanation, Mr P, and the one I gave is what the evidence points to...if what happened to you happened exactly as you describe, then there is no way whatsoever that your wife would not have noticed it...simple as that.

Had your wife seen it, heard your legs landing, felt the impact, or if you had some other kind of evidence that might make your story a little more concrete, then you might have something to work with...as it is, you don't.

1. I was wide awake. It does say this.

2. I was not sleepy.

3. My wife was asleep and to be honest would have taken a few seconds to awaken. As it is she doesn't remember my hitting her. The chances of her hearing or feeling my legs fall on to a soft matress are remote.

4. The evidence you have posted on contains your own views as to my state that night, not mine.

5. At the angle my body was at when my legs were raised it would be impossible for them to create any real thump on the matress, try it, they are more likely to land back after your groin, thighs then shins.

*wanders back in after work*

Where was I...



Irrelevant. Whether tired or not, people have been known to fall asleep, quite literally, the moment their head hits the pillow. The fact that you believe yourself to have been wide awake doesn't mean that you were...it also doesn't mean you didn't, in fact, fall asleep for a period of time....your article makes no mention of looking at a clock after the event I believe?



If calling her name was able to get her attention, I find it slightly suspect that hitting her in the back, and/or your legs landing on the bed, escaped her notice If anything, I'd think it more likely that the call would be what she didn't recall.



I've made no assumptions whatsoever; I have delt with absolutely nothing but the actual, physical circumstances of your experience, and your answers to the questions I posed to you. I even went so far as to reconstruct the events you described to make sure I most certainly was NOT 'assuming' anything



The more you describe it, the bigger an impact it sounds like it'd be; in any event, it all hinges on the fact you claim your feet were 20 inches above the matress...that alone is a significant impact, the position that the rest of your legs was in does not, in any way, remove from the fact that your wife should have felt the impact of them landing....especially if she was not in such a deep sleep that merely your voice roused her from it.


My conclusion: nothing dramatic whatsoever - a dream.

You don't need to agree with me, and I'm fairly certain you won't....but you asked me to offer an explanation, and I have done so. Not a single part of your account was in any way profound, or difficult to get my head round...the only way I can conclude you thought it was a paranormal experience is if you desperately wanted to believe it, and made little or no effort to find some other explanation.

The fact that this has only happened to you once further strengthens the possibility of it being a dream...if it were to become a frequent event, then it might require a little reassessment. As things stand, there's nothing whatsoever in your account that screams paranormal.

I should try something like that. I literally live 30 , 40 feet from a grave yard

Try it.

good luck just dont disrespect non of the graves

You see? The work of the Sera One inspires all. Even if it was sarcastic as hell

Question If and notice I made the If bold... there is such a thing as the spirit world surely the last place a spirit would go would be back to the cemetry anyway. I mean why would it. Surely it would go to the places that it new and loved rather than somewhere where its body is lying in a hole rotting and decaying.
From what I have read in the past there are very few sightings of 'ghosts' in cemetries anyway.

From my experience of these things in the past I can honestly say that whatever things I have felt and seen, barr one or two, are easily explained due to enviromental and physiological and psychological effects. All three of these seem to play a very huge part in many of these sightings. The fact that people go to cemetaries and believe they witnessed something, to me is very logical. Cemetaries are very spooky places at night, the imagination starts playing tricks, the psycological, physiological starts kicking in, the person is more receptive to any unfamiliar noises yada yada and Imagination and paranoia sets in and logic and reason gets thrown out of the window. I have seen it happen many times.

Well done Sera in being open minded enough to have a go. Enjoyed reading your 'report.'

Exactly ...I said much the same thing to the person who prompted to me head out on this little expiriment. He just wouldn't take it for an answer though

In my experience, people who believe in the paranormal, or that they've had an experience, are so utterly convinced that they have that they'll take ANY offered explanation as an insult....take Mr P just now, who seemed rather offended that I decided to explain his experience to him

I wonder if it's something along the lines of most experiences being explained so easily, they're embarassed it never occured to them to do it themselves

It was I that asked you for your opinion, so as for being insulted that would be rather silly now wouldn't it?

The truth is you added bits that I have never said or written. You fell in to the typical skeptic approach.

You started off with, you were in unfamiliar surroundings, you were tired, blah blah. I was neither. My article was a desription of those two nights, it was not a personal analogy. That was apparently your job. You added your own little image to those two events and was miles off. i wrote it as it happened, forget that people fall asleeep immediately, that happens when your tired, not when you have literally just laid your head on the pillow.

Thanks for your interpretation lass, I reckon you're best keeping to wrestling. You lack general knowledge in this field and approach it with a strong amount of sarcasm. Your explanation contradicted itself so many times it laughable. You seem to write off paranormal phenomena at the drop of a hat without a real true understanding. Just by simply putting an explanation to an event does not make it accountable.

And as I said, you don't need to agree with me I didn't expect you to. However, you asked for an explanation and I gave it. If you're perfectly happy living in your own little world of fiction, then by all means don't let me stop you

*pokes the smilies* That's odd...

My own little world of fiction? We are talking about two events in 35 years, hardly a fictional life wouldn't you agree?

As for your opinion, you stated things that apparently occurred, yet at no point in my article were they mentioned?

confusing?

Mr P, I've already gone over what you laughable call an "experience" more than I care to, and I'm not going to do it again. Suffice to say, however, that nothing I did or said was outside the bounds of general reasoning, as provided by your article, the answers to the questions I posed to you, and plain old logic.

If you don't like the fact that I was able to suitable explain away your "experience" then by all means don't accept it. Believe whatever the heck you want happened on that night, it doesn't make one bit of difference to me You asked for an explanation, and I gave you one...that's all.

Read the article again, then tell me where I state this:



Answer? I don't. you said it, not me. You assumed, wrongly, and that doesn't hold well for scientific or logical explanations, now does it?

You state quite clearly the bed you were on was somewhat rock like And you were in an unfamiliar appartment. That was my explanation for your first...uh..."experience"...if you'd call a feeling of "heavyness" a paranormal experience

You just don't seem to like it that I don't find your experience profound or groundbreaking Hate to tell you, but there was absolutely nothing staggering, unbelievable, or difficult to explain about it

Now...are you done? If you have another paranormal experience...or at least something you'd call that ...that I can deal with, feel free to ask away...but unless you can provide some new information about your leg floating escapades, then there's nothing more to be said about it, and I consider my verdict perfectly valid.

That's just it, you haven't explained it.

Surely if a pillow was rock-like the sinking feeling would be even more justified?

As for sleepy, where do I say this? please tell me, i can't find it anywhere.

Maybe a little.. I found also that in some experiences people who believe in the paranormal and will not look logically at it are people who really want to/ need to believe in the afterlife, that there is somewhere we go to once we die. Which is in some respects is only human nature because to understand that more or likely when we die there is...nothing..the end...we turn to dust, is hard to swallow when we are living our normal lives and feel invinsible and don't want to die.
So then people become blinkered when it comes to anything remotely resembling something 'out' of the ordinary because they truly want to believe in another world.

Mr P, you're clinging to a very weak thread here...you were in bed, it was late, whether you felt sleep or not is irrelevant. People can and do fall asleep right after getting into bed.

When (or should I say "if" ) you ever have a similar experience in the middle of the day, fully alert, and not lying in bed, then you might actually be able to argue this point...but it's more than a little bit suspect that you're two "experiences" occur while you're in bed

Besides, me evidence does not hinge on whether or not you were feeling awake, it hinges on the indirect testimony of your wife, that you provided through the answers to my questions.

Now...I say again....are you quite finished? You can accept it or not, but the conclusion I've reached is based on the information you've provided...highlighting what I've already read and know isn't going to change it. You can provide new information that might make me look at it all again, but as it stands there's nothing there whatsoever that contradicts my conclusion.

I agree lottie that many people believe for believing's sake. They are closed off to any possible explanation. I have spent the best part of 25 years researching paranormal phenomena and have released a book that covers many aspects of the unexplained. This isn't to say I believe every phenomenon I read about. I would love to say I have seen a ghost or heard the voice of a spirit, but ufortunately I can't.

On the other side of the coin I regularly find the skeptics explaining possible paranormal events with the same old fashioned approach. It's almost as if they have a little book of definitions and they use them as they need them. There are far too many experiences that still defy any logical explanation.

You still here seraphina?

I have an inner ear problem, which causes me to feel very heavy in bed when i get an ear infection of some kind. I also always here buzzing if there is no noise...... So that heaviness could be due to something you were not aware of.....

Are you? Not floating away again are you?

See what I mean Lottie? He's actually taken offence to my explanation He believes so wholeheartedly that he had a profound "experience" that he seems to consider the fact that I consider it trivial and easily explained insulting

Good point, but I have been assured that the noises were certainly not down to any ear problems such as otitis-media.

I din't say your opinion was insulting, merely wrong. yuo have made a picture of that night, added a few little extras and tried to explain it away. I feel that you have failed badly, this has nothing to do with my being insulted. I simply suggested that a few points you made are incredibly important in such matters and that they were not part of my article.

Your whole attitude has been one of sarcasm, pretty easy to see. The fact that after 35 years I have only 2 experiences to speak of suggests that I am not prone to making up paranormal events.

Mr P. I beleive your experience to be genuine but purely because of what is happening in your brain. Are you aware that what you experienced could more likely be hallucinations while falling asleep or waking,a form of Nacrolepsy?

I have looked at all possibilities, but as I stated this thing happened almost straight away. As for narcolepsy, this wouldn't only occur twice, it would be a frequent event.

Mr P...I'm going to try one more time...

What I have said...is directly down to the physical account you gave me. I reconstructed the events myself to make sure the conclusion I reached was as accurate as it possibly could be. The fact that your wife, who was lying right next to you, was completely unaware of what happened speaks volumes.

You can choose to ignore this...you can choose to remain convinced what happened to you cannot be explained. That's up to you, and to be honest I don't really care. However, the explanation I gave is perfectly logical given your own testimony.

Now, I'll say again...arguing it over and over isn't going to change that. I've made up my mind about the information you've provided, and highlighting it isn't going to change what it says. The only thing that might change my opinion is some new information..without that, my reasoning stands. All you're doing by trying to dispute the point is using up bandwidth.

Yes but hallucinations due to a fast reaction from an awake cortical activation to REM -cortical activation is so extremely fast that you would not even be aware of it happening. i.e it happens straight away. And it doesn't have to be an ongoing event it can be random.

*pokes herself for replying to a much earlier post by accident*

Are there any rules in the 'book' that says you have to be serious on an investigation anyway? If I was a ghost I would not want to play with such 'serious' people. The fact that people are serious on these investigations only enhances the fact that they are desperately trying to see or hear or feel something anyway. And as I said before any little noise or something out of the ordinary will in most cases be put down to 'paranormal events rather than logical events.

It's not about an individual being serious, it's about the investigation being serious.

Oh, my investigation was quite serious....as much as my report may not have been

I had six people with me...all of whom had varying thoughts and opinions on what we were doing...I remained for an entire hour....I fullfilled all of the criteria set by the challenger, and yet encountered nothing.

However, it's true this wasn't a serious attempt to prove or disprove the existance of ghosts...it was an attempt to disprove a ridiculous claim made by another member that ghosts and demons are prone to hovering around after dark, and that you can "call out" departed relatives from their graves.

Rediculous to you, maybe, not so for others that have heard and seen things.

Well Mr P....as Lottie has said...that's the real trick isn't it? What HAVE people seen.

A graveyard, at night, is a place that sets us on edge...it's a place we logically associate with ghosts and goblins, and adding to that darkness, the various sights and sounds of nightime, a great deal of the time people are simply going to think they've seen something that they haven't.

In activly searching for something, I'd say my results are actually far more accurate than someone who was simply walking around after dark, on edge, and not paying too close attention to their surroundings, stumbled upon something they thought was a ghost, and ran away terrified.

Yuo have to remember that very few reports of ghosts actually pertain to a graveyard. many people report seeing ghosts in daylight.

Oh and another thing about what I wrote. Thias would coincide quite nicely with sightings of ghosts etc. Considering most investigations are done late at night, when our natural body clock is running down ready for sleep and most ghost sightings are reported between the hours of 2 and 4 am I would say the brain has alot to do with this and this is conclusive, real evidence to do with the brain.

I know, but my investigation was in reference to a specific claim

Obviously, it's very difficult to make any kind of study about ghosts in daylight hours...the only way I'd really be capable of doing so would be to spend an extended period of time during the day in a location assumed to be haunted; between Uni and Work, I don't have a free day at any point during the week to set aside for this

Let us assume, however, that ghosts are wandering around during the day...there have been 500 billion people to have ever lived...even if we assume only a fraction of them return as ghosts, that's still a lot of ghosts wandering around....

If they were making a habit of appearing during the day, wouldn't there be a great deal more encounters than there are?

There seems to be a big myth amongst skeptics that ghosts and goolies only come out to play at night, this simply isn't the case. I have no time for the idiots that walk in to a graveyard late at night, hear an owl and then run for their lives screaming ghosts!

There is a lot of evidence on camera that the skeptics would argue is relfection and lens flare and we would argue the contrary, the point is much of this is in daylight.

Many investigations are done in the evening and not through the night. This sleep theory is fine, but it doens't explain it all.

Actually this 'sleep theory' explains alot if you read up on it. It becomes very obvious as to what is happening and the proof is absolute with cortical functioning yada yada. And when it comes to overall reports on ghost sightings it make pretty good common sense to me.

See, it is still easy to push away a perfectly logical explanation to all of this and pretend that its still something else.

*wonders why Lottie's sleep theory is "fine", and her sleep theory is "her own little thing", just because Lottie used bigger words, when they both said the exact same thing*

Pretend, who's pretending. Let me explain something to you about paranormal investigations. They are generally done with several people. Now you are trying to tell me that if 2, maybe 3 people witness a possible paranormal event they are all suffering from some sleep disorder at the same time?

Oh one more thing Mr P. I do not claim in any sense to be all knowing...I just use my noodle. I have been in the past on loads of investigations and know the 'procedures.' Alas these investigations have surfaced nothing substantial and nothing conclusive, except for group hysteria and possibly has proven some link between people and the ability to move objects..i.e table rapping.

half these people dont know whats it like to see a ghost most would be paralized with fear thats how it goes down thats how it is

phenomenon will do fine, please dont refer to me as Mr P.

3 people on an investigation see something that has no logical explanation.

explain.....

It's been seen, over and over again, that eye witness accounts are simply not viable. People are very prone indeed to "fill in the blanks", or simply make things up, depending on what they THOUGHT they say.

This is usually discovered in criminal investigations...question twenty eye witnesses who all say the same thing, and you'll get many, many different accounts of what happened. If a person isn't sure what they saw, they'll make it up, and actually believe what they're saying.

For three people who all think they saw something similar...that would depend what it was, and on the situation....I could believe that say..if one person saw something they thought was a ghost, it's pretty logical that others might think the same thing...

Let's face it, three people who report the same thing doesn't mean everyone who saw it saw what they did...

For example, let's say something is seen in a residential area, in the middle of the night....

Five people the next morning, each from different households, claim they saw a ghost, at the same time of night....some would conclude this meant a ghost was walking around.

Thing is, for those five who thought it was a ghost, there are probably a hundred who thought it was a homeless bum Just people who mistook said bum for a ghost are the only ones who'll take the time to report it, and theirs is the only story that gets heard....doesn't mean it's the truth.

your gona find ghosts mostley in grave yards or houses mostley old houses some times you will find them in some satanic place like lets say cliton road in nj