Since Christian apologists have been trying to show evidence that Jesus was real, was crucified and actually was resurrected since about 97CE without success, I am sure they would like to hear your "evidence", so they can use it against non-believers and those pesky evil atheist!

First, we only have the word of 4 books that were written generations after the supposed fact that there was an empty tomb (the first book written was Mark and the orginal version of Mark ended at the burial and did not include an empty tomb). Second, Jesus has been associated with the Jewish rebels, so how do we know that the 12 angry fishermen were in fact fishermen and not well trained rebels that could cut the two very outnumbered "Romans" to pieces(actually according to Matthew, the guards were members of the Jewish watch, or the ancient equivalent of the police) . As for the Mary's - well it was dark! How about putting the two members of the Jewish Watch on guard to fool anyone wanting to steal the body! See, things aren't quite as cut and dried as your delusion makes it out to be!

As the great and wise Aslan once told me: If you think it might be offensive....then don't post it!

Why shouldn't he post it, even if it was offensive to the Christians? They seem to have no qualms in offending members of other religions and belief systems..What's that old saying? "What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander!"

How about this old saying? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

One obvious reason that it is difficult for Christians to entertain the possibility that Jesus may have physically survived the crucifixion is because of their doctrine. That's obvious.

But another reason they have difficulty examining this theory is that it is often, unfortunately, the case that vehement and anti-Christian atheists, agnostics, Muslims [just visit various forums] actually do bash Christians, in an ongoing attempt to literally demolish Christianity.

So, because such people exist, it is close to impossible for a Christian to believe that I, for instance, could present this theory coldly and without any attempt whatsoever to destroy Christianity. With regard to the many bits of circumstantial evidence [some of which I listed in my first post] that exists in the area of Kashmir, that information was not created by fanatic anti-Christians.

The Takhat Sulaiman monument, with the inscription, "And he is Isa [Jesus], Prophet of the Children of Israel," was not put there by an anti-Christian, or some modern Western fundamentalist atheist. It's an ancient carving that merely announced the coming of Yuz Asaf [believed to be Jesus] to Kashmir, with no commentary whatsoever about Christian doctrine [indeed, "Christianity" did not exist when the carving was made, as Jesus, that I know of, never developed a doctrine called Christianity].

Documents such as the Wajees-ut-Tawarikh are merely histories of Kashmir that have nothing to do with anti-Christian bashing. In fact, when you go to Kashmir, what strikes you is the utter NON-interest that the local people have in promoting this Jesus theory. They care nothing about it, actually. There are no Kashmiri socieites dedicated to destroying Christianity. There do not exist any anti-Christian organizations there, at least that I know of.

The Rauza Bal tomb is simply an ancient fixture that people pass by every day. And, as I stated before, when asked, "Who's tomb is this," they matter-of-factly answer, "Yuz Asaf," or they will say, "Isa" [Jesus], and just keep on walking. It's no big deal to them. This is actually a rather powerful plus for the authenticity of the theory.

That's what makes this theory fascinating: It did not begin as an attempt to debunk Christianity. It did not evolve from a European movement of philosophy, such as rationalism or Euro-atheism.

In fact, the Greek name, "Jesus" is not used. The person buried there, before he died and when he was alive some 2000 years ago, introduced himself to that area as Yuz Asaf, not Jesus Christ [the histories claim that Jesus adopted the name Yuz Asaf, which some think means, "Jesus the Gatherer," for the purpose of travelling safely, incognito, especially until he exited the borders of the Roman Empire]. And that lends even more power to the theory. Had someone in Kashmir claimed that, "Jesus Christ" is buried there, then that would have raised eyebrows. But that did not happen.

But what happened is that the various bits of evidence, when taken together, seemed to clearly show that Yuz Asaf and Jesus were one and the same person. Another thing: The majority of the world's Muslims believe that Jesus is physically alive in heaven, due to return "in the last days," accompanied by someone named Imam Mahdi, for the purpose of establishing Islam as the final "dominant" religion. So, why would some Kashmiri Muslims fabricated a story that's counter to their religious beliefs?

In short, for Muslims to claim that Jesus is buried in the Rauza Bal would be to undermine their own religious doctrine that claims that Islam cannot be established fully on this earth until Jesus and Imam Mahdi return [let us all hope and pray that Bin Laden DOES NOT make pilgrimage to Mecca, and then claim, "I'm Imam Mahdi."]

So, there is no purpose for Kashmiri Muslims to fabricate this story, especially considering the fact that the Kashmiri traditions about Yuz Asaf go 600 years before the religion of Islam even existed.

So, for a Christian to object to the dissemination of this theory is tantamount to acting like an intellectual tyrant. Why object to the dissemination of information that simply exists as part of an historical record? While it is legitimate, perhaps, to object to an outright attack on Christianity, it is not legitimate to object to the existence of documents, monuments, tombs, etc., that simply exist either as recorded history, or as architectural monuments. Would Christians suggest that the Rauza Bal mausoleum be demonlised?

Western scholars have, in their writings, made a point of the accuracy with which Muslim historians recorded their findings as they travelled, especially with regard to map-making and their observations of various cultures they encountered during those travels. So, with that in mind, one must ask a question: If the Muslim historians are considered as generally reliable, then should not that same sense of Western trust of Muslim historians be applied to the Muslim historians who recorded the travels of Yuz Asaf, and the Kashmiri traditions?

They were historians, not polemicists. In fact, it is to their credit that one of them actually recorded that a Hindu document mentioned that Jesus and Yuz Asaf were one and the same people. Then that historian said, "Allah knows best," indicating that although the idea of Jesus surviving the crucifixion was against his Muslim doctrine, as an historian he was open to the possibility that maybe his doctrine was wrong ["Allah-u-Alim," i.e., "Allah knows best"]

So, these historians were not anti-Christian. In fact, as I stated, for them to fabricate a story about Jesus being dead in Kashmir would have meant an attack on their own religion. Indeed, if Jesus is buried in Kashmir, then that fact might be seen as a threat to the doctrines of both Christianity and Islam. Indeed, some Muslims become absolutly enraged at the mere suggestion that Jesus might be buried in Kashmir.

But how does one become angry at a tomb? Or a monument? Or a document? I can see a Christian becoming angry at Acharya S ["The Christ Conspiracy"], because she is bitterly opposed to Christianity, and her book is filled with attacks and sarcasm.

I kept that kind of thing totally out of my book, Saving the Savior. In fact, in the Preface [perhaps much to the chagrin of atheists], I praised Christianity for its contributions to humanity. I do see, though, how my book can really trouble Christians. The information I present there is...well...let's just say shattering. But, though shattering, there is no anti-Christian tone.

So, it is possible to talk about this theory dispassionately. Of course, if a Christian is strong in his or her faith, then there is no need to become upset [unless, of course, that Christian has some internal doubts].

This is the "Unexplained Mysteries" forum. It is not the "Christianity is false" forum. The theory of Jesus in Kashmir is still an "unexplained mystery," despite the amount of evidence that currently exist. In time, the mystery will probably be solved, especially if the political conflict over Kashmir is ever solved, and researchers are somehow allowed to open the casket.

Some believed that constant flooding of the Kashmir area, over the years, may have destroyed the underground casket which contained the remains of Yuz Asaf. But that won't be known until an excavation occurs.

Christians who have strong faith should welcome such an excavation. Because if their doctrine is true, then certainly Jesus won't be found lying in a casket underneath the Rauza Bal mausoleum. Of course, if he is found there, and something else is found inside the casket that clearly establishes the remains as belong to Jesus, then it might be a good idea, at that point, for Christians to re-examine their doctrines.

One possibility of establishing whether or not any remains found in the casket belong to Jesus is to take a DNA sample of those remains, and compare them to a DNA sample that might be found in any remains discovered in the alleged grave of Mary, his mother, that exists in Murree, Pakistan, and abutts a Pakistani TV booster [antenna].

Tradition holds that Mary travelled with Jesus, from the Holy Land, but she died en route in the city that is now named after her, Murree. If a mother-son connection is discovered in the DNA testing, then this would add tremendous weight to the other elements of the theory that I've discussed in the previous post, as well as other elements that I did not discuss. Sue Olsson [who I dubbed, "Indiana Sue"] has travelled extensively in Pakistan, India and Kashmir, actually lobbying the governments for permission to open both tombs, and for permission to assemble a team of Western and Eastern scientists for the purpose of taking DNA samples, should any remains be found. Stay tuned!


Regards,

Abubakr Ben Ishmael Salahuddin

Author of, Saving the Savior: Did Christ Survive the Crucifixion?

Quick observation: It is interesting to note that if it is ever proven that Jesus lies dead and buried in the Rauza Bal mausoleum, this would not only present a problem for Christian and Islamic doctrine, but for atheist doctrine also.

Most "atheists" are actually anti-Christianists. Acharya S, for instance, is an atheist [see her book, The Christ Conspiracy] well-trained scholar who claims that Jesus never existed. So, it is ironic that a theory that appears to be detrimental to Christianity could actually help Christianity by doing something that Christians have not really been able to prove to date: that Jesus actually existed.

Regards,

Abubakr Ben Ishmael Salahuddin

Author of, Saving the Savior: Did Christ Survive the Crucifixion?

If their is no resurrection then Christianity is a waste of time, money, energy and hope.
If their is no resurrection then Jesus was just another weird freaked out guy.
If their is no resurrection then there is no Christianity.
It is a stupid theory. But then that is what we are here for right? To entertain stupid theories about inconsequential garbage.

begins humming once again the old Foreigner song: Too much time on my hands....

"If their is no resurrection then Christianity is a waste of time, money, energy and hope.
If their is no resurrection then Jesus was just another weird freaked out guy.
If their is no resurrection then there is no Christianity."

A growing number of Christians would probably disagree with you. Most Christians, of course, take the resurrection to be a requisite for Christian belief. But a growing number are now focusing on the teachings of Jesus, rather than the alleged "fact" of his having rose from the dead. This may be, in part, due to the impossibility of proving that Jesus rose from the dead, or that he's alive in heaven, or that he is returning. But, whatever the reason, more and more Christians tend to identify themselves as followers of Jesus and his teachings, rather than believers in his resurrection, etc., etc.

"It is a stupid theory."

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure which theory you're referring to as "stupid." Are you referring to the theory that Jesus died on the cross, descended into hell, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven and will return again "in the latter days" as a stupid theory? Or are you referring to the theory that Jesus survived the crucifixion and then travelled on to India, where he died a natural death (supposedly) as a stupid theory? I'm just not clear on which theory you're referring to.

"But then that is what we are here for right?"

Not to my understanding.

"To entertain stupid theories about inconsequential garbage."

Again, maybe you might want to clarify which theory you regard as stupid and inconsequential. Of course, many atheists, for instance, regard the theory proposed by Christianity as stupid and inconsequential. Christians, on the other hand, might regard the theory of Jesus in India as stupid and inconsequential.

If you're referring to Christianity as stupid and inconsequential, well I'll only comment on the inconsequential part. Though I am not a Christian, it is crystal clear to me, simply from reading any history book, that Christianity is not inconsequential. In fact, it is far from inconsequential.

The prestigious international financial newspaper, Financial Times, carried an article about the fear that European economists and experts have concerning President Bush's belief in Christianity. Specifically, they worried that his belief in the apocalypse might influence his political decisions. So this is just one example that shows that Christianity is not inconsequential.

Of course, almost the entire history of Christianity has impacted world affairs in a huge manner, such as the Papacy's support of anti-Soviet underground movements in Poland, along with the union movement, Solidarity, to topple the U.S.S.R. That was world-changing stuff--no light-weight matter. I think this is common knowledge.

Now, if you're referring to the theory of Jesus in India as inconsequential, in terms of its impact on current affairs, you may be correct--for the moment. But should the theory eventually be accepted as fact by a substantial portion of the world, then the theory could no longer be considered as inconsequential. From my vantage point, I sense that the theory is beginning to have a growing bit of impact in certain quarters.

As regards the theory's importance to the fundamentals of religion, it has no importance whatsoever. All religions teach the same fundamentals, whether or not Jesus died on the cross. In fact, even some atheists follow religious principles, though they choose not to define them as such.

Regards,

Abu Bakr Ben Ishmael Salahuddin

Author of, Saving the Savior: Did Christ Survive the Crucifixion

“ A growing number of Christians would probably disagree with you. Most Christians, of course, take the resurrection to be a requisite for Christian belief. But a growing number are now focusing on the teachings of Jesus, rather than the alleged "fact" of his having rose from the dead. This may be, in part, due to the impossibility of proving that Jesus rose from the dead, or that he's alive in heaven, or that he is returning. But, whatever the reason, more and more Christians tend to identify themselves as followers of Jesus and his teachings, rather than believers in his resurrection, etc., etc. which he/she is answerable””

All religions offer guidance and advice about morality, spiritual paths, how to treat others ect.
However the unique thing about Christian believe is that the Creator Himself realized that mankind was unable too fully comprehend the results of his flaws/sins against Him and paid the full price on our behalf .
Jesus claimed to be God Incarnate. If this is not the truth why would you follow his other teachings.
I certainly would not follow someone whom I believe is a liar.
The death and resurrection of Jesus The Christ is the cornerstone of Christianity. And you can not call yourself a Christian without accepting this.

Also Pimp, you claimed in your first post that that your own faith in the Bahai had no bearing upon your research. I am very familiar with the Bahai Faith and would challenge you on your motive.
The Bahai Faith takes all the goody goody teachings from all the religions of the world and ignores anything controversial. I am sure even Hitler had a bit of wisdom you could use!
I would sooner have intelligent dialog with atheists on this site as their only motive is to prove Christians wrong or at lease to have a little flame going.
Typically, you also state that you don’t want to offend Christians yet you start a web site that attacks the very foundation of our belief. While dropping a few seeds about your own Bahai Faith.
Bahaism is a religion based on fence sitting claiming to have all faiths rolled into one big delicious jelly role.
Take a lesson from Irish politics/religion get of the fence and take a side for or against Christianity. Or expect a bullet from both sides of the fence.

All the best, Irish.

Christians who don't pay attention to Jesus' death and resurrection are missing the point of christianity! That is why christianity is what it is! If you don't pay attention to that, and only pay attention to Jesus' preachings, then you are just like any other person with good morals. There is no way Jesus could have survived the cross. There's no way he could have been seen by people after he died on the cross unless, of course, he did rise from the dead.

Opening tombs would do nothing. If a body was there, believers would say that it was someone other than Christ, if there's no body, skeptics would say someone moved the body.

http://www.tombofjesus.com.

Irish, I've been at forums for a number of years. I know the deal--very well. As such, I'm going to stick to the subject matter here, and allow you your comments. If you see it as a "win," that's fine, because I'm familiar with that kind of thinking--watched it for years over the Internet [and was part of it, in fact]. Now, if you wish to discuss religious issues regarding Christianity vs. Baha'i, point me to a forum that focuses on religious issues, and perhaps I'll join you there and go address each of your statements, point for point.

My point was not to debate Baha'i vs. Christianity. My point was to refute the idea that information is intrinsically "anti" anything. The books of Kashmiri history were not written as anti-Christian books. I do realize that it takes a certain level of sophistication for most Christians to entertain theories about the historical Jesus that are contrary to the doctrine that evolved within Christianity over centuries. That's unfortunate. There are, of course, some Christians who can read Kersten, Kaiser, Hazrat Ahmad, Hassnain, Kashmiri, Shams, Nazir Ahmad, etc., without feeling as rattled as you apparently do.

I'll make one comment about Baha'i, though, and leave it at that: Anyone who wishes to know who Bahaullah, the founder of the Baha'i Faith was, as well as obtain information about the Baha'i Faith to examine for yourself, then go to www.bahai.org where you will find plenty of material. Read the material. Also, if you get a chance, try to visit a Baha'i community in your area, and ask to attend a Fireside. And if you get a chance to visit the Chicago area, visit the Baha'i Temple in Wilmette, Illinois. There are films that you can ask to be shown for free, and they explain the Baha'i Faith, as well as an excellent bookstore, featuring books in English, Arabic, Persian, Russian, Spanish, German, French and other languages. Then, see if you draw the same conclusions that Irish drew. You may. Or you may not.

[By way of clarification, The Tomb of Jesus Christ Website was built by me in 1999. I did not become a Baha'i until 2003. So that website has nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith]

Now, I've read your post a number of times, and I cannot see anything to comment on that is relevant to the topic being discussed at this thread ["Where is Jesus Buried?"]

You mistook my mention of Christianity and Baha'i as some kind of entry into a polemical debate about religion. That's not my understanding of what this thread is for. The thread is about Unsolved Mysteries.

As I stated before, there are about 4 billion human beings on this earth who are not Christians. And for many of them, the Biblical accounts about Jesus present an "Unsolved Mystery." And that unsolved mystery is: Where is the physical body of Jesus? Four billion human beings do not subscribe to the Christian doctrine that claims that Jesus rose from the dead, etc.

Also, now that non-Christian documents have been discovered that mention the travels of Jesus, it is the intellectual right of non-Christians [Christians also, actually] to examine those documents, and weigh them as bits of evidence to be included with that book that mentions Jesus that is called the Bible. In short, the Bible is now one of several books [non-Christian books] that mention Jesus.

In any serious study of anything, one does not rely on one account. One looks at as many accounts as possible. It is then that one can draw a better conclusion about the particular topic. The Bible is not the only book that speaks about Jesus. The Qur'an of Islam speaks about Jesus. The Bhavishya Mahapurana speaks about Jesus. And, aside from that, there are history books that speak about Jesus [see www.tombofjesus.com ]

Nobody is attacking Christianity doctrine here. What is going on here is an examination--by people of various persuasions--of what could have happened to the physical body of Jesus.

Not once have you heard me call your religion "stupid" or "crazy" or any of that. That is what's called an attack. Of course, if you think in either/or terms, then all I have stated is meaningless to you, and therefore we can't get anywhere at all.

I must state that I'll have to ignore any future polemical comments.

If it helps you, I can give you some suggestions as to how you can better participate. For instance, you could ask, "Why would Jesus have gone to Kashmir anyway!" Or, to France, or Engalnd, or whatever other "Unsolved Mystery" kind of question that is pertiment to this particular thread.

Or, since the Bible is obviously your frame of reference, you can ask, "If Jesus went to Kashmir, then why doesn't the Bible mention that!" [It actually does give a hint, or a pointer that appears to indicate that Jesus did go somewhere.

But a debate on what you perceive as the "truth" of your particular religious doctrine is not on topic, and it's not going to get anywhere. One suggestion for you [and I don't mean this offensively] might be that you find another forum. Because if this topic angers you, and if you can't discuss it without feeling attacked, then you're not ready for this kind of discussion.

Pimp
I will first apologize if I came across as bitter/angry in my post. Perhaps its just a reflection of the weather here!.
Anyway in reply to your comments.

[QUOTE][quote]”The Tomb of Jesus Christ Website was built by me (Pimp) in 1999. I did not become a Baha'i until 2003. So that website has nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith”

I still maintain, you don’t want to offend Christians yet you start a web site that attacks the very foundation of our belief. While dropping a few seeds about your own Bahai Faith.

[quote]”That's not my understanding of what this thread is for. The thread is about Unsolved Mysteries.”[/quote]
And the Mystery may be your motive.

[quote]”As I stated before, there are about 4 billion human beings on this earth who are not Christians.” Four billion human beings do not subscribe to the Christian doctrine that claims that Jesus rose from the dead, etc”.[/quote]

I was addressing you, as Bahai’s claims to be Christian Jew and Islam rolled into one big jelly role religion. Refer to the other thread. And I am intitled to a fundamental Christian opinion of the issue as to whether I believe Christ was buried or not.

[quote]”Also, now that non-Christian documents have been discovered that mention the travels of Jesus, it is the intellectual right of non-Christians [Christians also, actually] to examine those documents, and weigh them as bits of evidence to be included with that book that mentions Jesus that is called the Bible. In short, the Bible is now one of several books [non-Christian books] that mention Jesus.” [/quote]

Surprisingly, I totally agree with you on this part.

[quote]”Nobody is attacking Christianity doctrine here. What is going on here is an examination--by people of various persuasions--of what could have happened to the physical body of Jesus.”[/quote]
Personally I do not consider your comments to be an attack on myself or Christianity. However you claim to be a follower of Baha’u’llah who claimed to be an incarnation of Jesus Christ, seems to have some validity should there be evidence of a physical body. Again I question your motive.

[quote]”Not once have you heard me call your religion "stupid" or "crazy" or any of that.[/quote]”
And neither have I. but perhaps you seek to undermine a fundamental cornerstone of Christianity in order to validate your own belief.

[quote]”If it helps you, I can give you some suggestions as to how you can better participate.” “One suggestion for you [and I don't mean this offensively] might be that you find another forum. Because if this topic angers you, and if you can't discuss it without feeling attacked, then you're not ready for this kind of discussion.”[/quote]
Careful your arrogance is hanging out!
Is that a sheep skin hat?
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." (Jesus-Bible-Mathew 7:15.10)


[quote]“if you wish to discuss religious issues regarding Christianity vs. Baha'i, point me to a forum that focuses on religious issues, and perhaps I'll join you there and go address each of your statements, point for point.”[/quote]You are correct Pimp, this is the wrong thread to discus these issues. However no need to go to another forum we have a section called Spiritually and Skepticism.
You are invited.Christianity vs. Bahai

While I'm interested in the Yuz Asaf speculation (I've managed to find a copy of Kersten's Jesus Lived in India and am awaiting it in the post) I just wanted to post another theory that I've thought/heard about as I haven't seen it mentioned within the 11 pages here. 11 pages I've enjoyed reading.

Jesus is a human representation of Jerusalem. All the miracles were feats performed in the city - maybe the walking on water was a flood in the city, water to wine relates to the production from nearby water and vine sources, etc.

The "Chinese whispers" of tales would have been brought together - memories and stories about home by travellers that, as the stories spread, took on a life of their own.

Perhaps when Jesus was alive, he preached an idea not a religion. Someone along the line had to go and take a good idea and add a splash of divinity to it to make it better than the other religions around at that time.

If it were accepted and was still to this day, that Jesus survived and lived out his days and died naturally in India, then he would be considered a philosopher. That is what I consider him, because I find it more plausible that he did die naturally. There is a tomb to prove it along with historical documentation. When I see historical documentation, other than the books of the Bible, that tell me that a man rose in to the sky with the promise to return in the near or distant future, then I might take another look. But until then, I'm sticking with the Kashmere theory.

As far as I know, Christianity claims to be based on the teachings of Jesus, not him resurrecting. Christianity and it's off shoots are the only monotheistic religions that deal with resurrection and have some believers that think that is the MOST important part.

Religions are full of ritual and symbolism. What is to say that the story of the resurrection was a symbolic story?

Yehsu did not die on the cross-he was given a potion to feign death . He later led rebellions in Rome. Also the Koran states that Yehsu did not die on the cross. This is pure Jewish mythology.

Hey Folks!

Do you remember what the topic od the discussion was? - Whether Crist was buried in kashmir!!

And take a see where the discussion has gone???

Christianiy Vs Ba'hai!!

As the other had said..take the discussion to some for religious debates...!!

He didn't. He physicall ascended to heavan.

No its a medical fact Jesus died on the cross. No human could have survived his crucifiction. Since I know its comming heres the proof. After it had appeared Christ was dead a roman soldier pierced him through the side with a spear. When the spear was removed blood and water ran out. This type of wound can only mean one thing the spear pierced the heart sack. Unless you want to argue with the only existing records of his crucifiction your theory can't possibly hold water and is nothing more then anti Christian propoganda.

I suppose you believe in the Spear of Destiny too?Who cares where the body is buried ?That's no more Yehsu than I am -where's Ahura Mazda,Buddha,Odin?Same people ,or spirits .This flesh means little.

my back garden ................. honestly

Either there is a god, or there isn't. If there is a god, then that god is rational according to human concepts, or that god isn't. If that god isn't, then there is no point in even trying to do what that god wants, as what that god wants isn't understandable by rational human concept. So then, even if there is such a god, why bother? The best that can be said about the Christian god is that "He" is arbitrary and capricious.

Bottom line is very simple.

1) The most consistent and accepted(and oldest or among the oldest) accounts of the crucifiction are clear. Christ was pierced through the chest, causing blood and water to spill out(this isn't myth this is straight out of the gospels don't believe me read them)

2)Its a medical fact that such a wound indicates that his heart sack was peirced which would have killed him

There fore the only reasonable conclusion is that Christ was dead at the point he was removed from the cross.

Now you can argue that Christ didn't exist(which is a different issue entirely) and your welcome to argue that he didn't die. To do so you have to establish at the least one of the following

1) That despite the verification by his closest followers and own mother it was not Jesus who was crucified(this is the Islamic claim as I understand it but given the Koran was written 500 years after the fact I find it unreliable as a historical source)

2)That he was not pierced through the side(in which case please supply documentation from the period that supports that or from a reasonable time after since most scholars at the lastest put the gospels at around 100 AD some thing from then or earlier would be good)

3)That some one could survive having a spear driven through his heart sack given the medical capabilities of circa 33 AD

IF you can't do that don't argue he didn't die

Never heard about the whole Kashmir thing, but its plausible.

Ok I realisethis will probably be a load of tosh, I know it looks like it, but I'll state it anyway due to the frame of mind I'm in.



Could his mother and followers have seen that it was not him, and lied to the Romans so as to let him get away, and to stopthem looking for him.

Is it possible certainly. Can you demonstrate they did so? The arguement he was a human rebel leader doesn't even fit with his own actions and teachings. This is the man who when asked if people should pay tribute to Ceaser confirmed they should do exactly that rendering unto Ceaser that which was Ceasers(specificly coins which were imprinted with Ceasers face) and the man who when asked stated his kingdom was not of this world to Pilate. Neither suggests a defiant rebel leader.

Considering that we have no contemporary documents that say what he taught (all gospels were written generations later and Paul never says what Jesus taught, only what Paul taught)....He very well could have been a rebel leader. you need to research the "Slavic Josephus' History", could really shake your world!

Well any christen will tell u dats crock, but i ain't a christen, i think if he was pinned to the cross he wouldn't have resurrected unless he was goin 2 heaven. But thats a cool theory and i will have to look into it

Obviously, but the ressurection was the defineing moment of his life, the new testament and christianity itself. 'Without the ressurection, your faith is nothing'.

Obviously, but the ressurection was the defineing moment of his life, the new testament and christianity itself. 'Without the ressurection, your faith is nothing'.

Hi all of you, I'm a human just like you..

We have many many questions about many many things..

some of us follow the truth... and the rest just keep watching...

How Priests and Preachers Enter Islam ,,, I wasn't know , but i knew..

see How and Why Priests and Preachers left their religion..

anyway...

Islam honors all the prophets who were sent to mankind. Muslims respect all prophets in general, but Jesus in particular, because he was one of the prophets who foretold the coming of Muhammad. Muslims, too, await the second coming of Jesus. They consider him one of the greatest of Allah's prophets to mankind. A Muslim does not refer to him simply as "Jesus," but normally adds the phrase "peace be upon him" as a sign of respect.
No other religion in the world respects and dignifies Jesus as Islam does. The Qur'an confirms his virgin birth (a chapter of the Qur'an is entitled "Mary"), and Mary is considered to have been one of the purest women in all creation. The Qur'an describes Jesus' birth as follows:

"Behold!' the Angel said, God has chosen you, and purified you, and chosen you above the women of all nations. Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him, whose name shall be the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, honored in this world and in the Hereafter, and one of those brought near to God. He shall speak to the people from his cradle and in maturity, and he shall be of the righteous. She said: "My Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me?'
He said: "Even so; God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing,
He says to it, 'Be!' and it is." [3:42-47]

Muslims believe that Jesus was born immaculately, and through the same power which had brought Eve to life and Adam into being without a father or a mother.

"Truly, the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, and then said to him, 'Be!' and he was." [3:59]

During his prophetic mission, Jesus performed many miracles. The Qur'an tells us that he said:

"I have come to you with a sign from your Lord: I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it and it becomes a bird by God's leave. And I heal the blind, and the lepers, and I raise the dead by God's leave." [3:49]

Muhammad and Jesus, as well as the other prophets, were sent to confirm the belief in one God. This is referred to in the Qur'an where Jesus is reported as saying that he came:

"To attest the law which was before me, and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden you; I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear God and obey me." [3:50]

Prophet Muhammad emphasized the importance of Jesus by saying:
"Whoever believes there is no god but Allah, alone without partner, that Muhammad is His messenger, that Jesus is a servant and messenger of God, His word breathed into Mary and a spirit emanating from Him, and that Paradise and Hell are true, shall be received by God into Heaven. [Bukhari]



You can click here



with all my love,

I don't accept either Christianity or Islam as anything more that mythology! Good for you, but means nothing to many of the forum members....

"Where is jesus buried, Did jesus die on the cross"
Jesus is buried in the hearts and minds of christians where he belongs
R.I.P.

So what do you accept?

which side is urs mako?

So what you are saying is that what Jesus said in the bible is not correct, but what mohammed said in the k is? ("no one comes to the father but by me!)

Only that there is a Creator, anything past that is beyond human concept, that the Creator loves all of his creation but gives us true freewill without his interference, having given us a conscience to guide us. If you haven't figured it out, I am a Deist....

mako and all of members click here plz.

Excuse me!!
Would you stop for a moment?!
Haven't you thought-one day- about yourself ?
Who has made it?
Have you seen a design which hasn't a designer ?!
Have you seen a wonderful,delicate work without a worker ?!
It's you and the whole universe!..
Who has made them all ?!!
You know who ?.. It's "ALLAH",prise be to him.
Just think for a moment.
How are you going to be after death ?!
Can you believe that this exact system of the universe and all of these great creation will end in nothing...just after death!
Have you thought, for a second, How to save your soul from Allah's punishment?!
Haven't you thought about what is the right religion?!
Here you will get the answer


http://www.todayislam.com
http://www.islam-guide.com
http://www.sultan.org

The problem is most of you are hung up on following the traditions of men and not the word of God.This more than anything will lead to your separation from God and his Plan, that unfolding as we speak.You did know Easter was a PAGAN holliday.-usdi Agaluga

Don't be foolish Easter is NOT a pagan holiday. It borrowed some elements from paganism(as did most holidays) but its foundations are inherently Christian its the trappings that were borrowed.

Well... I am very new to the boards.. registered 5 minutes ago... But I've been reading around for a while now and I can tell that I haven't seen anything saying "If you don't belive in it you have nothing to say about it".. I mean.. what do you actually think "Discussion Forums" are for? I mean.. I can't see a "Discussion" if everyone agrees with eachother.. at least I'd not be interested in it... But saying that we "Non-Belivers" have no right to post here just because we don't see things the same way as you do... That is pretty much against everything that has with a "Discussion Forum" to do... Right me if I'm wrong guys?

You are absolutely correct, I for one think this discussion is complete garbage and am surprized it has lasted as long as it has. The Bible and all taht is in it as is about as ridiculous as a comic.

Very cute and nice poem, but in no way does it prove that your religion is the truth! How are you going to feel standing in front of the Creator explaining why you wasted your live following a false god?

Kevin, where have you been hibernating, Easter was a direct steal from the holy day of the Goddes Aester. I mean they even stole the name....Easter is not a Jewish name nor a Roman name!

First of all, I consider YOU the non-believer! Second, I am getting awfully tired of you Christians trying to take over the forums! Notice that part of the forum's name is Skepticism!

very interesting cocept, all of you.. but yeah i believe Jesus was resserected, and he did float up to heaven.. But he should have a grave i thought, but maybe they didnt even bother.

Please have look these web site:

http://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_quer...+in+kashmir+bbc

I share this oppinion...

Ahoy,
My I ask a humble question? This subject is well beyond the understanding of us, isn't it? Are we not arguing "truth?" Haven’t we as humans done a wonderful job of manipulating truth from and absolute to a concept? Can’t we agree to disagree on this subject without all the name-calling and innuendo? I understand this is a very emotional issue, but can we not discus it as intelligent people and try to keep our tempers under control?
Now, back on thread. Actually, Jesus did have a tomb. His body was placed in a tomb. Now, as to the thread…are we trying to decide where that tomb was or if it has it been found or are we trying to decide of he is still in that tomb?

I don't think jesus ever existed, so there can't be a tomb either. (just my view on this)

Just to throw in my silver drachma on this topic... we have at least one (and many many more) pieces of archeological evidence Alexander the Great lived. Coins minted in his lifetime bearing his image. I know, I own one. It would be kind of silly for a government to mint a coin of a fictional leader during what would have been his lifetime

Most likely he was dumped unceremoniously in a burning garbage pit alongside other brigands and those accused of sedition. Either that, or the "Jesus tomb" has some veracity to it.



Mako is absolutely correct here. Easter is wholly pagan. Its date was set during the Council of Nicea in 325 CE. Notice that it falls on, not a set date, but on the first Sunday after the first full moon following the vernal equinox--March or April.

Sean