Jesus - the original Houdini

Come on people, the tricks Jesus Christ pulled off weren't that amazing... they wouldn't even have drawn a crowd by today's magician standards!

Jesus lived at a time when prophets were like rock stars, which lent him superhuman credibility, yet even today I've seen faith healers exposed in the media, even charged in courts, and prompty return to business performing "miracles".

Thank god not everybody's out to make a buck off the suckers.

Jesus' greatest legacy was not his miracles, but what he said. Even the most hardened cynic could not fault his Sermon on the Mount for example .. "Blessed are the peacemakers.."etc, nor his urging for all people to love their neighbours as themselves (wait for the smart response about this!).

If the world had followed his advice - and the churches - down the ages, what a different place it would be today.

No-one in history has had more of a profound effect on humanity than this one man. It is easy to villify him and to make smart remarks about him, but he was undoubtedly the most influential man who has ever lived. Not bad for a poor carpenter from the back streets of a one-eyed town in Galillee.

Jesus isn't buried, He's in heaven, and not on this earth... and crazytomi, why would a chritian believe that He was buried??!? it says in the Bible that He isn't... a true christian wouldn't doubt that...... oh well

and negative, how is walking on water something that wouldn't draw a crowd today? He walked in deep enough water for there to be a boat, and humungous waves... healing someone so that their lepracy, blindness, or inability to walk went away is nothing that any magician can do now...

i guess people aren't as smart as they think they are

i think he was buried in jerusalem(sp?) im not sure.Thats what they said on the history channel. Not sure

the history channel is full of bull.... it's the evil media trying to trick you into believing that, but it's not true... exactly what Satan wants... TV is evil

If you're Christian...Jesus ought to be buried in your heart!

Vimjams

jesus isn't buried on earth. in the bible, it says that when the people came to check on the tomb they saw that the stone blocking the entrance had been moved. They walked in and all they found were the cloths that jesus had been wrapped in.

This is true, but the beatitudes were lifted verbatim from older Jewish literature, as was the "Golden Rule". Of Course, the "Golden Rule" was borrowed by the Jews from the Babylonians, the Hindi, the Persians, etc.



Actually, nowhere does it say that he was a carpenter, only that Joseph was...and the town that he supposedly came from did not exist until 130 CE, over a century after the crucifixion!



I have asked this many times before and never gotten a good answer, "What is a true (or real) Xian?"



Could you give me some secular contemporary proof of any of those "miracles"? These are typical miracles reported by many of the ancient "god men", such as Krishna, Mithra, etc, so why should we believe your scriptures and not theirs?



Maybe and maybe not, but we do know how to capitalize and punctuate.



As I asked ZF85, where is your secular contemporary proof of this assertion. Remember, it is the responsibility of those making fantastic claims to provide fantastic proof of the allegations!

so heaven is one zillion miles away?
can't the hubble see that far?
to create the legend of jesus and his ascent to heaven, if i was a disciple back then, i'd take his body, and hide it so everyone would think he went up to heaven.
maybe his remains are in the basement of the vatican.
maybe in the ark of the covenenant.
gotta find the ark first though.

1. You have to believe that Jesus existed.
2. The most detailed account of Jesus' life is the gospels
found in the Bible. (Jesus is a Bible caracter)
3. If you believe in Jesus, its likely that you believe in the Bible.
4. If you believe in the Bible, you believe that He died,
ressurected from the dead, and ascended into the sky.
5. I do not recall the exact place where Jesus was buried.
6. But if anything interesting happened back then, it was His
birth, death, ressurection, and ascension; not His burial.

These so-called gospels were written no earlier (Mark) than 75-80 CE and no later than 170 CE. They were written by non-witnesses who may or may not been able to talk to an actual witness (Mark was supposedly Peter's scribe, Luke was supposedly Paul's companion - Paul never met Jesus, to can't count as a witness, Matthew used Mark's gospel as a reference to write his - over 90% of Mark is copied in Matthew- so probably not a witness, John was not the disciple, he would have had to been 120 years old to write the gospel) and can only be at the most hearsay and probably are only mythology.



That's probably all he was....



That is unless you are a follower of Osiris, Krishna, Mithra, or Erakles, they all did the same thing only centuries earlier (Can we spell cut and paste?)!



His burial was probably all that happened back then!

beowulf, you obviously did't get that information from the Bible,
because 1. Paul DID meet Jesus on his way to Damascus,
2. you have your dates completely mixed up because you're
not getting your information from the right source. Also, IF
you claim that Jesus is't real, or that the disciples never existed,
then you're wrong. Jesus did exist, and my belief is that He still does.


of course, because beowulf is so smart, he knows everything!
Let me call it as it is... You don't know a flip about what happened
because you don't appreaciate important historical records such
as the Bible.

Epileptic seizures do not qualify as meeting someone....So Paul had a vision while he was having a seizure, that hardly counts as meeting someone. Paul had no earthly idea of any information on Jesus - in Paul's writings did you notice Jesus' mother's name, his place of birth, his father's name, his father's (and possibly his) career choice, any of the supposed miracles that were performed...What you didn't , Ya know why - CAUSE HE NEVER MET HIM!



Yes I am getting my information from the right sources, that is unbiased sources (many of them even Xian), never get your information from someone who has a very distinct bias, they have too much to lose. My dates are the presently accepted (except by some fundamentalists) dates for the gospels....



Why thank you, I'm glad you noticed! Just remember, you're the one that said it, I never made such a claim.



You should be a stand up comic - important historical records, lord they are going to love this at work!!!! Very few historians or archaeologists consider the bible to be very accurate as far as history goes......As a historian I definately care what happened, and to see what happened, you have to have multiple sources. The bible usually fails to be even close until just before the Exile and then afterwards it goes off course again!



Believe what you will, but when making fantastic claims please provide fantastic proof.

IF, and that is a big IF, Jesus did exist... then i have a really horrible feeling that most of you Xians might have just missed the point...

But hey, thats not my problem... I'm goin to Hell either way

I am flabergasted by your ridicule and insolense!


why thank you.



I apologize. I had no idea that you are a historian.
you know, you historians better be careful misleading the people
of earth, because if you keep giving us inaccurate information,
you'll end up with Solomonkey!

Ok, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the title of this topic 'Where is Jesus buried? Did Jesus die on the cross?' ? If the point of this is to discuss historical evidence of these happenings (and the possibility of them not), doesn't that prove that this is not technically a 'Christian' thread? Aren't these two cornerstones of the Christian faith? Therefore in this case, any debate to the contrary should be welcomed and encouraged. Those who feel that this is ridiculing their faith should understand that this is a discussion of the facts not a testimonial of beliefs.

Sorry. The folks who were feeling attacked were getting to me.

Nicley put... this is a thread about proof not belief.

In which case I think if the man existed his remains could be anywhere. no matter where they ended up they would have been desecrated by millions of people wanting to see him for themselves. So only very few would have known their location and I believe that the secret died with them.

I wasn't aware that I was insolent nor have I ridiculed where the pompous bombast did not warrant ridcule.




'Tis not we, that for the last 2000 years have been misleading a sizable portion of the world's population, those folks are the ones that had better rue meeting their creator!



I give information that is as accurate as I can find in my researches and get my information from books, on line limited access libraries (LOC, Yale, Havard, UCLA, etc), and other sources. At least my beliefs and information do not come from a document started by bronze age savages and finished by early iron age dunces or from websites about God flying around in UFOs. As for ending up with Solomonkey, I am assuming you mean going to Hell....a typical Xian response when they realize that their argument is so weak as to be nonexistent.

Solomonkey and JenRose I agree with you wholeheartedly and thanks for your input.

Beowolf, aside from religious texts, are there any historial works mentioning Jesus, giving us any more information/validation? I've never really heard of any other sources besides the Bible or related books of scriptures (like the 'heretical' ones w/ the marriage of Jesus and Mary M.). Since you are an historian I'm sure you have a much broader knowledge of this than I would by just watching A&E.

The answer to that is simply "No, there is none". Xians will try to sell you Josephus Flavius the Jewish historian as a source. However, Josephus (his Jewish name was Joseph ben Mattathias) wasn't born until 37 CE nearly a decade after the supposed crucifixion (Xians say 5 years after, but they labor under the illusion that Jesus' birth date was actually 1 CE instead of 4 BCE - Herod died in 2 BCE so Jesus had to be born two years earlier or there would be no "Massacre of the Innocents"). There are two very evident insertions in Josephus' works, one is called the Testimonium Flavianum and is the most important. I will not go into the reasons that scholars (now that the church has no power to punish nonbelievers) consider the insertions bogus, but the suspected forger is Bishop Eseubius in 430 CE, a man know as the "Liar for God" and a recognized forger (he could write in the antique hand). Several Roman historians Tactius, Livy, Pliny, etc mention Xians, but all of those mentions are long afterwards (end of 1st century or much later) and never mention Jesus, only "Christians" or the followers of Christ. For these very reasons, many people do not believe that Jesus ever lived. I however, believe that he was an almalgamation of several historical Jesus characters (Jesus was a very common name) of the previous 150 years, some of which are mentioned in the Babylonian Talmud. The most likely candidate is Jesus ben Panthera, an illegitimate son of a jewish girl named Mary and a Roman soilder named Tiberius Julius Abdes Panthera, a native of Sidon. Mary was turned out by her husband (a carpenter, strange isn't it) and after growing up Jesus ben Panthera hired out to go to Egypt where "he acquired magical powers". Later Jesus was found guilty by the Sanhedrin (the Jewish "Court") of blasphemy and was stoned to death and "hung on a tree" (crucifixion??). As you can see, the partial evidence is there and vehemently denied by Xians...who wants a bastard for a God? Research these things that I have mentioned and if you want, I can IM or email you some websites (that all can access).

Any websites on this topic would be very helpful, thanks. I'm very interested in ancient history and no matter what your opinion is on the man Jesus, he had a powerful impact on the world.

The life of a travelling preacher in first century Palestine is hardly likely to be recorded by contemporary historians, although Roman Historian Tacitus makes mention of Jesus and, as mentioned before, so does Josephus, but there is a theory held by some, Beowolf included, that his writings have been tampered with.

Recent discovery of the Gospel of Thomas at Nag Hammadi in Egypt throws a new light on Jesus and in places supports the writings of the four Gospels included in the Bible.

What is true, is that this man has inspired millions down the centuries and just a few years after his crucifixion followers were willing to be put to the most appalling deaths to defend his name. He was undoubtedly one of history's "greats"; no one who lived before or since has had such a profound effect on human development -expressed in art, medicine and personal morality.

Why wouldn't they? After all, they mentioned Apollonius (a competitor of Jesus) often and in quite a bit of detail. To say what you said is a typical Xian cop-out.



Tacitus did not mention Jesus, he mentioned "Christians" and the method in which they worshipped made it seem that they were sun (not son) worshippers. As for Josephus, probably 90% of scholars studying that period hold the mentions in Josephus to be bogus insertions by Bishop Esuebius in the 5th Century CE.



First and foremost, scholars question that more than a handful of Xians ever were executed by the Romans....Nero did not prosecute the Xians (heck at that time they were a very very small cult in Palestine and almost no where else), he blamed the Jews for his problems and they were the ones expelled, executed, etc. So if a few Xians (very unlikely) were caught up it the persecution, it would have been because Xianity was then identified as a Jewish cult. The so called persecution is a Xian "urban legend".



I can name many who had a greater effect on human development and for the better. Xianity has too great a history of crimes against humanity, supression of the arts and sciences to say that he had a profound positive effect on art, medicine and personal morality....I know all that was done by people "who weren't really Xians!"

I DONT BELIEVE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS .ONE IS ITS TO CONFUSING ,,,2 ITS WRITTEN BY MAN HAND AND IF U READ THE BIBLE THERE NOTHING GOOD SAID ABOUT A WOMAN ONLY ABOUT HIS MOTHER HOW SHE GAVE BIRTH TO HIM AND A PROSTITUDE CLEAN HIS FEET WITH HER HAIR PLEASE BUT IT SAID MAN WILL DESTROY THE WORLD REALLY MMM IM NOT SAYING I DONT BELIEVE HE EXITED BUT THERE A LOTS OF SECRETS THAT ALL RELIGION DOESNT WANT US TO KNOW WHY ???? THATS MY QUESTION

Hi there pretty kitty.

Welcome to the forum. Just for your information, posting in ALL CAPS is kind of like yelling...it is considered rude to do so. In future posts you will want to take the CapsLock key off so that your writing doesn't make us think that you are yelling at us.

Actually there are some Eastern Texts that indicate he survived. Try www.tombofjesus.com they have many of the text documented there and are trying to document more.

Thanks MGawedz! I still check up on this thread periodically to see if there have been any more links posted. I'm just fascinated by the historical facts behind different mythologies and love to catch everyone's differing opinions.

Jesus Christ. How could there be any proof on finding him? Did a little research - found out that the chances of finding the location of Jesus's grave or remainings are literally impossible (95.7%). The location of Jesus's grave, described by putting pieces together from bibles and evidence, shows that the location is either underground somehow or underwater. His remainings, not bones (obviously), not DUST, but just microscopic pieces that would be LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to find.

It alway comes down to one thing. Believers dont need that kind of proof,and non believers will never find enough to satisfy.-usdi Agaluga

How can they find the remains of someone
who they don't know that he really existed????

There is absolutely no proof for his existence, only an old book.
and that book has been proven to be wrong about a million times.

That is the same as saying a fairytale book is real.

Jesus Christ is buried in heaven, duh!

I heard he went to Kashmir,India with Mary to learn more Buddism (christianity)He called himself Yuz Asaf and invented the Chicken Tikka Massala.,,,mmmmmm,tasty.

Who is to say all Christians believe Jesus ascended to heaven? The bible is not historical evidence, but a compilation of fables that one must choose to accept as fictional, partly fictional, or as many have to accept, truth.

It is by Faith that I believe I shall awaken tomorrow morn to see the sun rise!
It is by Grace that I do!
It is by Hope that I live each day.
It is by Charity/Love that I am aloud each day.

It is by Faith, grace, hope and love that I believe that Christ was who He said He was and accomplised what he set out too.
If one believes as I do, there is no grave to look for. nor a need to look.

PS. I am not an xian. I am a Christian because I follow Christ. why do somepeople use X. is it because they cannot spell Christ or because they are ashamed too?

Neither, we do not believe that Jesus was the Christ and do not dignify him with the title! You have your beliefs and we have ours.....

QUOTE(JennRose @ Oct 4 2004, 07:52 PM)
Ok, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the title of this topic 'Where is Jesus buried? Did Jesus die on the cross?' ? If the point of this is to discuss historical evidence of these happenings (and the possibility of them not), doesn't that prove that this is not technically a 'Christian' thread? Aren't these two cornerstones of the Christian faith? Therefore in this case, any debate to the contrary should be welcomed and encouraged. Those who feel that this is ridiculing their faith should understand that this is a discussion of the facts not a testimonial of beliefs.

Sorry. The folks who were feeling attacked were getting to me.


"Who is to say all Christians believe Jesus ascended to heaven? The bible is not historical evidence, but a compilation of fables that one must choose to accept as fictional, partly fictional, or as many have to accept, truth. " ---Frosty




I'm not really sure if you are arguing with what I wrote or not, Frosty, but one of the pillars of Christain beliefs is that Jesus was the Son of God and rose from the dead. That's kind of the point of the whole thing. If his body is found, it pretty much debunks Christianity.

I'm personally not even convinced he ever lived, but that's another thread.

I do not believe in the tooth fairy. but I dont call her the Xfairy simply because I don,t believe her .

No one claims the tooth fairy is the son of God either....to each their own!

He is not burried. By Biblical accounts, and by faith, He was resurrected, and currently dwells in Heaven.



You bet ya - nobody could survive having a spear thrust up, under their ribs, and into their heart. Not to mention a gruelling time with the cat-of-nine-tails, and many other forms of torture. And crucifixion.



However, I think it might have more to do with disrespect and scorn, Irish, rather than shame.

You are very wise grasshopper....but the disrespect and scorn is directed at the founder not the followers

Check this entire site:

http://www.biblediscoveries.com/arkofcovenant.html

Hope it can give enlightment to the REAL SEEKERS OF TRUTH.
I know most people deny God and even cursed him. But i know
that Jesus died for our sins so that we may be ressurrected, he
atone us of his precious blood. He is alive, and that's why we
should look forward for his coming with great rejoicing and hope
that all this corruption will stop. I know he is my redeemer the
savior of mankind. You cannot have this testimony, you cannot
borrow light from other people, you had to find out for yourself,
you cannot believe what other people say, no matter how beautiful
it is, the key is in you....unlock the key and he will show you the way.

SmokeJaguar it is more accurately put this way (thus?) rational people hold they have proof but no certainty...the believers (in any of the myths from jesus to the other guy whose name I won't say case I get beheaded) have certainty but no proof.

If Sodom and Gommorah were worse than places I have seen as I have worked my way around the world several times, there areat least 100 cities that should be piles of ash.

Ever been to Bangkok? How about San Fran?

The Jesus types won't admit it was all written down 500 years after the supposed fact and if there was a guy named Jesus mentioned in other hysterical works...ya gotta remember the looting and burning that preceeded these times of peace were great acts facilitate replacement of history with whatever ya want.

Why is there not a book called Jesus in the New Testament? Dyslexia? Some other learning disability? Too busy turning water into the wine his present day folowers say is sinful?

I don't believe much history pre 1800. Some science stuff, but the military and social history can be so far off its better to say the only known fact is there were no sewers through most of it.

People are kiling people for money in the name of myths and legends just as they have done for quite a while. Ever notice its mostly Christans, Moslems, and Shintu who scrap in the name of god. With Christ and the other guy being worse. Shintu was supposedly an art but that kinda fizzled after Hiroshima.

Buddists have no history of globe trotting,maybe its time to teach them a lesson???

Tony Telephone

www.trafford.com/robots/03-1830.html

hey someone just posted that as a non christan I have no business commenting in a christian thread.

I am shocked...free speech and other things aside...aren't you curious as to what the real facts are?

As forChristian bashing...isn't that what martyrdom means? Nobody comes in here to bashanyone. If someone thinks Christians and their beliefs are funny then take it and pray for them as you should and above all thank them for the insight and time to do anything at all.

If you don't know it all ya can't make up yer mind...

T T

In this life you will find no single text or teacher that will satisfy everyone as to the nature and outcome of Jesus.I believe what I believe based on all these sources,but mainly on how these words resonate throughout my life.We see the words but do not completely understand until we have lived enough to understand. True belief comes from this interaction.In these matters a BELIEF becomes more than any "written" word alone.-usdi Agaluga

Belief means nothing without supporting evidence!

I believe in love, with out supporting evidence.

I believe in the living soul of man with no supporting evidence.

I believe there is other life in our universe with no supporting evidence.

I don,t believe that we are some cosmic accident.

Did early man belive in radio waves? they were there but had no way of understanding them or what to do with them.

One other point!
Belief with conclusive evidence would be an assault on free will.

About the title of this thread... If you believe that Jesus redeemed our sins, you also know that Jesus isn't buried anywhere. He went up to heaven, remember?

We only have the word of "gospels" written generations after the fact, not even written by eye-witnesses (according to early church fathers); after they took over the Roman government the Xians made sure to destroy all records pertaining to the crucifixion!

The flush to your skin, the increased heartbeat, the dialation of the pupils of your eyes, the increased respiration, etc are all evidence of your physical love, your devotion and constant thoughts of the individual and desire to please and protect are evidence of your spiritual love...so there you have evidence.

Unless you can come up with evidence of a living soul, your belief has no support and is only your opinion.

Again, unless you can come up with evidence of other life in our universe, your belief has no support and is only your opinion.

Neither do I, but without evidence that we are not, our belief has no support and is only our opinions.

Since they did not know about radio waves, they could not very well believe in them, much less understand or know what to do with them. We know about them, have evidence of their existence, understand their properties and listening to the noise that is considered modern music on radio and TV, we definately know what to do with them! As I said before;without supporting evidence, belief means nothing! How would having evidence violate free will? Seems to me that it would make the decision making much easier! That's the problem with religions that talk about sin, they have no real evidence (mythology doesn't count as evidence) that they understand their God's desires! So with free will and no evidence, how do you jump - do you take someone else's or some moldy book's word or do you exercise true free will and follow your own path?