I've been reading the "Skeptical Non-Believers of Uppity Annoyingness" thread for some time now- as well as other where the members have posted. And I've noticed a trend that I would like to address if possible.

People seem to keep calling them "mean", and "bullies" when they point out a non-paranormal reason for phenomena (such as un-noticed smoke in a picture). These people claim that the sceptics put people down, and insult them, and simply dismiss people as "gullible"- simply because these same sceptics question the validity of the case, and are trying to get the person to present, persuasive evidence to support their claim.

A sceptic is any person that asks questions, about their environment, and uses a scientific method to examine, study, and explain the world around them.

It is important to have scepticism- vitally important, in my opinon.

Without it, societ would not be able to survive. It is scepticism that causes us to ask questions about a leader's potential to do good. It is scepticism that prods us to ask, "How was it caused, why did it happen, who is responsible, what could be the reason for it?"

Without sceptics, we would never have evolved as a society past the polytheism of even early man- because we would've simply continued to believe that doing anything could invoke the wrath of the gods. If it weren't for some guy saying, "It might be possible, but I don't see how you could do it," the splitting of the atom would never have happened (heck science fiction wouldn't exist most likely).

We need scepticism in order to evolve as a society. They are as vital as being able to believe in something.

Many of the "Skeptical Non-Believers of Uppity Annoyingness" are open minded, and willing to believe. All they ask of the believers is this: show us how it could happen only that way, give us a scientific theory that may be provable one day, present your evidence in a logical fashion- and with an explanaition other than, "I don't remember seeing anyone smoking when this picture was taken 10 years ago- so it must be ectoplasmic goo!".

I think they deserve a lot more respect than they've been getting lately. After all, by being sceptical- they're asking themselves to questionn their OWN beliefs. And that's a lot harder than questioning someone elses.

Maybe Saruman could pin this particular topic here so that we don't have to keep re-iterating this sort of thing over and over and over again. Rather, just refer them here, eh?

ill give you my respect im a christain btw

Thanks.

I've never thought that one's religious beliefs have a part in whether you're sceptical or not. I was raised to be a Roman Catholic- but I still questioned the reality of things that were put in front of me.

I have very deep spiritual beliefs of my own (I don't subscribe to organized religion anymore), and it has never prevented me from seeing that not everything is of a supernatural cause.

every 1 has their belives

If this was directed towards me, I apoligize. I simply don't get along very well with certain members, and I have apologized to them to. Once again, sorry for being not the best user.

Tull- I'm not directing this at you, but rather at the people that think that the sole purpose of the "Skeptical Non-Believers of Uppity Annoyingness" is to ridicule people and their beliefs. I have seen the group being treated like this since I've joined, and just had enough.

I would rather say something, and make people think about what they're doing, rather then getting frustrated, and leaving because the fun has gone out of this site.

Well dude, I sometimes get angry with some of the answers that I get (especially in the Spirituality section, and specially when somebody says that Xtianity is the biggest disease that the Earth has suffered or that charity organisation have no purpose -those made me really angry-), but yeah, it's okay to ask yourself about the world and why things happen and not just staying there as a lazy-ass not trying to know the truth. In fact, it is in our nature to find the truth right?

not everyone has yours....

Well, I know Im not the most popular member right now, and Im apologizing anyways for anoying people.

Jpalz, I agree. I don't subscribe to organized religion personally, not because I see it as evil (which I don't), but rather because like any organization, it can (and has been at various time) corrupted, and used to manipulate the population for their own gain.

I've studied various religion, Christianity, Zen, Buddhism, and a little on Wicca. I have found that every religion has worthy values that they preach... and some less than worthy ideals too. I've come to understand why people are attracted to these types of beliefs- and the fact that as people, we need something to believe in the first place.

I have no respect for people that show little respect for the beliefs of another- believer or sceptic. As long as a person is willing to discuss such things in a mature, logical, scientific method, I have no problem.

The problem comes when people say, "This is my belief- and it's the ONLY belief that's right!". I experienced that today actually- I had a lady approach me with a flyer, and she said, "I want to tell you about how Jesus is the way to Heaven." I politely told her that I was content with my spiritual beliefs as they were. She screamed after me as I continued on my way, "Jesus is the only way to Heaven!"

If a person wants to believe a blur in a photo is a UFO, fine... but I do have a problem when you point out the rings of a fingerprint, and get a face of anger that you don't believe as they do.

Reading the posts, and even PM'ing with members of the "Skeptical Non-Believers of Uppity Annoyingness", I have discovered that they are very open minded people- and many do belief in some supernatural phenomena. What sets them apart is the fact that they still ask questions about the validity of reports. They aren't here to rip every claim of UFO's, ET's, Ghosts, etc apart. Rather they are here to help seperate the fake from the true. They demand evidence- if a person claims to have taken a picture of a UFO, or a Ghost, and doesn't post it, I'm sceptical of the validity of the claim... because there's lack of proof.

There are so many people out there creating hoaxes (technology makes it so easy to do this no less), that scepticism becomes even more vital to examine the purported photos, films. They look at things to rule out how it can be caused naturally... if what's left supports it as authentic phenomena, they're more then willing to admit that they can't explain it by ordinary means.

-Definition of Skepticism-

I think this whole 'club' is annoying all together. It seemed to have started for "fun", but has taken a different course. I don't think it is very intelligent or cool to single out other people because of their beliefs or participation in a certain club or group.

This is ridiculous. I've seen many members being abused (sarcastically) because of this whole club thing. I know for a fact that all of you are intelligent and can carry on a conversation with your own views and opinions (as Moe pointed out).

So, why must we gang up on others because their views are a bit different or skeptical (whether valid or not)? There is no reason for it and it will not be tolerated.

Stewey, you made good points, I give you credit for that. I suspect that you will be harassed in one way or another because of this thread, but that is the chance you take.

Everyone is allowed to express their views just as much as the next person. That is the joy of being involved in an online community. Diversity is awesome.

Here's a little warning for everyone involved in these 'clubs'..

If you take it too serious and abuse your involvement, I and the rest of the staff can easily remove all signs of organization.

Now that would truly be terrible if it came to that. I (and the staff) want you all to have fun with this forum, it is a great place to visit and stay for hours at a time. We appreciate your participation and interest in the website. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say that. We do not want to dis-encourage anyone from posting what they believe in.

I would like to hear some other view-points on the subject. Don't be afraid to disagree with a Mod about a particular subject in any situation. You only have to follow our forum rules, not our beliefs or opinions.

You do not see myself or others getting carried away with this Apfelschnaps 'club'.
It was a joke from the beginning, never meant to be taken seriously. I believe that it started a trend, and others thought that they had to come up with a "cool club". That is ok, to a point. Which brings me back to my first paragraph.

I realise that certain members started a club before this all started. I'm sure it was never intended to go this far or get this out of control.

It still is too early to determine what the outcome of all this will be. I just hope it never gets brought up again (yeah right).

We are all friends here people. We obviously enjoy each other more then we think we do at times. I'll be the first to admit that I interact better here then I do with real life interaction. That is the best part of it all.

We can share views and opinions without being judged or ridiculed because of our cultures, beliefs and values, etc., etc.

Ok, I've ranted on long enough. Have fun people, life is way too short for all this tension and nonsense.

P.S. This topic does not need to be pinned.

im scared to, but i want to agree with mentalcase
actually, thats pretty much what ive been trying to say for a while. well said, it is out of control.

*hides*
..............................................
* no need to hide, but it would be great if you would edit your original post rather than post a new one . I see posting goals like 1000 , 2000 ect.. as geeky . Mind you that's just a personal opinion *

I can assure you that I started the "Loyal and Devout Church of Sceptical Believers" for fun... not to be an "elite" group. I even stress that tolerance is important if you do with to be a "member". It was meant as a tongue in cheek response to the "Skeptical Non-Believers of Uppity Annoyingness"- and they realized that (they also still respect me for it too )

I agree that it's wrong to single out people because of their beliefs- it's discrimination... something that I fight against as a soldier.



Hehehe... I'm used to a little controversy in my life. Yeah, I'll get nasty-grams, and such- but I'll just smile, say, "I can understand how you may feel that way..." and continue being me. Besides, according to my Brother's Mother-in-Law, I'm Satan's spawn for using Tarot cards, so being called a twit won't be so bad.

Just so you know, I wasn't trying to bring attention to the conglomeration of "clubs" here- but rather how sceptical people (most of them just happen to be in that one group) have been getting treated.

Point taken.

I do try to bring forth, good, intellegent, valid points.

Good forum Stewey. I once again admire your standpoint on the fight, and the views you bring up are always fantastic ones.

There is never, EVER, a case on this site or anywhere else, where i read something and immediately think/post 'FAKE, LOAD OF CRAP'. I always gather more information with open-ended questions and assess the situation from all angles, the way a good scientist would.

God has not been found in a test tube. That is not good evidence to suggest that god does not exist, only that he cannot be found by scientific means. I have a point here, i just can't grasp the words for it.

Maybe this phrase, "I believe in the possibility- but seeing it in person would go a long way to convincing me" is close to what your philosophy is?

Thanks for the compliment. Mom raised me to have an interest in everything around me- seen and unseen... it's brought a fair bit of balance to my life- and has allowed me to gain various insights that I enjoy sharing with others.

yes, stewey, your views are always a great contribution to any thread.


off-topic, but is the title from importance of being earnest by chance?

It is a bit of a tip of the hat, yeah. I'm a writer, and love literature. LOL

Thanks for the compliment as well. I'd hate to get frustrated with this site because of disagreements about whether something is real, or not- and leave. We've already lost Vel because of the actions of some people here.

If I can encourage a civil and interesting discussion- I will as often as I can.

Of course, I'll express my beliefs about the authenticity of something, as well as my scepticism as well. I am a sceptical believer after all.

Stewey, that's right on the mark.

I have no problem with believers or skeptics posting and asking questions, but I do have a problem with people who post messages aimed solely at teasing and belittling others views.
It's hard if you're a believer to find anyone to share your experiences with. By posting here you're hoping to find some like minded people, not some immature fool.


I guess the people who I'm aiming this at probably won't even bother to read this thread.

Tia, it's not much better when you're a sceptic- and are insulted for not believing.

There are people here- and in real life that do take pleasure from simply mocking others. Those ones aren't worth talking to if they consistently do it.

There are also those that absolutely refuse to see the other side of a situation. Once again- they aren't worthy talking to as well, because the conversation just goes in loops "Yes" "No" "Yes"...

The ones that are worth talking to are those that thought don't quite believe, at least ASK for credible proof (even if it's just in their eyes). If you can't convince them, they at least file away your comments and add it to others they talk to... this build up often winds up convincing them... after all 10,000 humans seeing a Green, cigar shape object hovering over the White House- with pictures and film from at least 2000... can't all be wrong, right?

I just keep telling myself these couple of quotes my Mom taught me (wise woman Mom was):

"The truth will always become known."

"No door is closed to an open mind."

[quote=Stewey1972,Sep 25 2004, 06:52 AM]

I just keep telling myself these couple of quotes my Mom taught me (wise woman Mom was):

"The truth will always become known."

"No door is closed to an open mind."


I like these Stewey, and I understand what you're saying.

The second quote is actually a lot bigger:

"No door is closed to an open mind;
The light of enlightenment is on the other side;
Open the door and let in the light."

To me, enlightenment has always meant knowledge- and the wisdom to know what to do with it. The only way society can gain this is asking questions about our world.

"Without an open mind, when your beliefs are shown to be inaccurate... what do you have to cushion the fall?"- Me.

Just wondering, who pinned this topic? I guess it is a good idea to pin it after all, i'm just curious to know who did it.

Can the forum leaders pin topics?

I have no clue.

Yeps indeedy we can......but it wasn't me

Being sceptical is one thing...I guess we are all a little sceptical sometimes about some things. But I detest these 'holier than thou' cliques which tend to spring up and Mentalcase is right in his observations.

Vimjams

I dont mind skeptics as long as they dont hijack threads asking serious questions and then make fun of believers in whatever they are poking at .

I seem to agree with mentalcase ... I believe the whole idea of having forum clubs to be annoying . If nobody has noticed , my avatar signature is a sarcastic poke at clubs in general . It seems people are taking it a bit too far , which is why I voted against having a believers club . Such things only split the forum members and cause them to start judging each other for whats in their signature rather then the actual posts .

Its just as stupid as high school cliques once you think about it .

I would like to thank Stewey for everything he has said in this post,Stewey has taken time to know me as a person and not(as so many have)as a part of some gang.

I am the type of person who would love proof before I am going to agree with anyone,but because I am sceptical about things I am persecuted.

This has happened throughout history,that one group of people are persecuted for their beliefs.

I am someone who has had a lot of paranormal things happen to me(and have posted some on this forum)I have never stated that I do not believe in everything(otherwise I would be wasting my valuble time here)

I do see why other people got the knock with certain members comments,but the name calling was(like I pointed out in another thread) a form of harrassment as everyone was looked on in the same way.

When I have thought something was not right I have pointed that out so it can be explained to me,but because I am part of a group...I am automatically being a bully.

WHY?

The way it looks in the other thread is that we were ALL bullies and this is not true...I don't want to carry on having people harrass me for my beliefs.

I wish that anyone who thought they had a problem with anything I have said or that I had upset them,they pm'd me.


Once again,thank you to one of my dearest friends on this forum...Stewey.

To those wondering who pinned this topic- Saruman thought it was an excellant post (I had also sent him a PM asking it he could when I first posted- before Mentalcase said it didn't need to be), and thus pinned it.

I honestly don't understand what people have against skeptics. If you're prooved wrong you're prooved wrong. You can continue to believe it if you want afterwards that your bussiness. Besides, argueing with skeptics are fun, except for the part when you get totally wasted . Burnside and agautas(sorry if i spelled it wrong, are reeeaaally good at doing that .

My personal pet peeves are when people mistake skeptics as disbelievers, scientific theory for civilian theory, and openmindedness as credibility.

just for the record, I'm not against skeptics, but I'm
not for them either. Whats the point to being a skeptic?
All you do is proove or try to proove people wrong on
their ideas. No? You declare your opinion to be different,
and without knowing the full truth, you blindly attack
a claim that might have merit and logic. But nooooooooo,
I see how things are here at UM! You just do it for the
sake of argument! Ha!

Norman, no, you've got it all wrong. What a true skeptic does is look at the evidence. He wont take someone who says "God told me in a dream that the world is gonna end" and accept it as evidence. They dont look at the sky, see a shinney moving light and say "That must be alien" and they dont say "My hands get warm when I cup them, I must be making psi balls" they look for evidence of it, and evidence against it. They say "Well, theres no evidence that that dream was truely god communicating to you, and it could have been just a dream." and "that light in the sky, it isnt necessairly alien in origine, theres no basis for that assumption. It could just be a satellite, etc." Skeptics look for evidence, and if theres no evidence, they explain, or in other words debunk, the claim using evidence. A true skeptic is not someone who dismisses everything, but someone who believes in the possibility of everything, and judges the probability of something using current scientific knowledge and evidence.

Ah, yes, of course. You're right, and I'm wrong because Stellar
is god. He knows all. You cannot even approach him and
justify your actions. Your defense in argument is meaningless when
Stellar takes over.

Then all skeptics are blind then!

then what are you doing? Are't you dismissing every statment I
post as nonsense?

true. But are't we forgetting the futile debunking of real evidence?
Photographic, Video, Audio, objects that you can touch, and the
credibility of a great number of witnesses?

Please... we both know exactly what you would say if I said your god is an evil god...



Thats not true. Infact, I'd be more inclined to call someone who jumps to conclusions as blind rather than someone who looks at the facts.



Common man, thats nonsense!



*sigh* Yes, I do agree with you that photographic, video, and audio evidence IS thrown away too much and classified as "fake". I have a hard time discussing something when I see another one claiming "any video of the paranormal is fake" and stuff like that, because most of the time, people dont go through the trouble of checking if its fake or not, they simply say "Well, I dont believe its true therefor any photographic, video and audio evidence is forged." That is not always the case. Sometimes it is, sometimes its not. Thats the wrong attitude to have if you're skeptic. You'll notice that I stay away from calling most pictures fake (except some that have been already proven fake and stuff like that...)

Having said that, photographic, video and audio evidence, as well as a great number of witnesses is used to establish and acknowledge that something was seen, and then the process of identifying what it was begins. I hope you understand what I mean... I dont think I'm being clear. Ill use ghosts as an example. People do see ghosts, but what the ghost is has to be established still. If people see something unusual which would even remotly seem like a ghost, they attribut conciousness to it, because thats basically a common assumption. People think "Well, if I saw a ghost, that means that theres an afterlife because the ghost is a person who died, etc." A true skeptic, however, would look at the evidence, and judge it from there. Is there evidence that what the person classified as a ghost is not a hallucination, or a group hallucination (depending on the case) influenced by the environment? Is what they classified as a ghost, simply a natural phenomenon, such as maybe fog being highlighted by some lights? Was there a sign of conciousness? Was there a sign of intelligence? Was there a sign that this ghost was a deceased person?

steallar neds to wake up ghosts are dead people theres to much evidence out there that already proves that they are dead people

Blazer, instead of telling me to wake up, maybe you should wake up, because I think you're very late for school.

did you just call Stellar a NED?

Whats a NED?

Non Educated Delinquent.
It was discussed in the World of the Bizzare section.

Lol. Him calling me that. Thats pretty funny.

What I want to know is why believe everything you are told...some of the members who are complaining about skeptics think that we do not believe in anything,you have never asked me(either by posting or pm)what I do believe in.

And if I was to believe in everything I was told,then I would be sitting in an oxygen tent affraid to do anything.

All Im asking is instead of putting me down all the time,get to know me.

Im not following anyone else or just here to argue for the sake of it.
Im here to find out what is happening around me.

So, by eliminating the less possible explainations, (by debuniking them)
you eventually find the more possible explainations?
WHO ARE WE TO SAY WHATS POSSIBLE?

And who is to say what isn't. Skeptics want there to be things that surpass the human body too. We just need more convincing.

You mean impossible? Yes. Everybody can tell you whats impossible (as far
as we know) because we know that it is. And yes... there are more things
yet to be discovered. But will we ever find all the answers in the universe?
For example: I do not know if God is possible. I only have a sensational belief
that He does which is good enough for me. But do we KNOW if
God is possible or not? AND who is to say that we can find all the answers with
science? is't that just another attempt to disproove God?
(Alright no more bringing God into the subject)
But its important that we learn. We have limited knowledge on BOTH
sides of what is impossible, and what is. And that is why I find error
when someone says that "There is no paranormal" or "there is"
because, no human can KNOW for sure at this time!
If you really think about it, IT IS SAFE to say that humanity
is ignorant to the truth. Why? Because we don't know.
The mystery about faith is that when you become a christian,
the line between knowing and believing is fine.

I have NEVER debunked anyone or thing Norman...you do not even know anything about me and still have not even tried to.

I am not going to just believe in something because someone tells me what or how to think.

I apologize, AliceCoopersGirl.
I was talking to the skeptics that do debunk.
or skeptics in general.