Okay, the other day mum told me about these monks in tibet who live in a really cold place, below 0 centigrate, wow . Anyway, the strange thing is that they don't exctly wear any thick clothes to keep warm. They use their minds. Now, heat is energy which suggests they use the energy to be able to heat themselves. I know their will be some skeptics so i looked it up at google and found this site
http://www.neilslade.com/Papers/comfy.html .
This should at least silence some skeptics in the possible existence of psi, or other controllable energies.
You'd probably be able to make yourself cold as well , but just check out the site.

nice....

I seriously hope this silence some non believers. Seriously, its gettin on my nerves a bit but hey, gotta live with it .

Ah yeah, i just remembered that there might be more possible proof of psi.
On television i saw this show on martial arts. There were these martialartians(couldn't think of anything else) mediatating and i think said to the huy that they were moving energy around their bodies. The guy got on of those heat sencor things and it clearly showed on it energy being moved around the martial art persons body. The martial art people demonstrated what they could do with their collected energy.

The one through a needle through a 5cm, i think it was, thick window glass thing.

i try to heat myselfs up in the morning on the way to school like that, and its hard.

but i believe its possible.

Cool

Alright PsiSeeker . Found some evidence on the self-heating phenomenon huh? Thats cool.

About the Tibetan Monks, they have been known to levitate as well, though I could not prove. But the fact that they can heat up a room is proven here, congrats psiseeker .

yer its han-day on the way to school stupid winter getting colder every year gah! lol but hey i partially use magick for that part....

yer monks do alot of work with meditating and mind work. i recently saw the Shaolin Warriors (ok so aboot a few months back) and they can use the power of their mind to smash cinder blocks and stuff. one thing i was surprised aboot was that there were two kids of aboot 6 or 7 in there!!! there so young!

You people are just clenching at anything so that you can say its psi? Seriously... I can walk in my tshirt ouside in -10oC weather... during the winter. I have to adjust my body to get used to it. Its not psi, its simply the body adjusting. In no way is it my mind channelling heat energy to parts of my body!

You know the really neat thing about it? It isn't just Tibetan monks that can do it! If you attend the morning exercises at Pensacola, OTC, you will find a little under two hundred cadets exercising so rigourously in the cold morning air that they get their body heat up to the point that they literally steam away the morning dew from their exercise gear.

In fact, I once did it after riding my bike hard through a rainstorm to school, drying myself off (albeit unintentionally) within five minutes of getting to the building. You could literally see the steam coming off of me, and the feel my shirt drying.

Seriously, this is simply a result of over-active blood circulation transferring heat from your inside to your outside. It's the same thing as sweating, except the environment you are in isn't conducive to sweat coming out of your pores. Think of it as evaporation to the extreme level. That the Tibetan monks are capable of reproducing this very common effect without engaging in anaerobic exercise is impressive, but only in the way that an excellent gymnastics routine, or a well-performed ballet is.

I strongly suspect that all alleged psychic powers are like this. Mystical to hear about, but easily explainable once it has been studied and verified.

I think its true. Just thnik about it. People who can make psiballs feel a warmth in the area it is in.

I can make my ears get hotter too, but I don't say its because of psi.

it is in sight a form of Psi Aquatus. Psi is in a sense aboot mind over matter and this is wot they are doing. explain my part aboot the shoalin warriors and ill see if i can counter nice friendly debates are nice

Sorry, but I cannot agree that it is psi. Psi implies a power greater than that of the physical mind. It implies a non-physical control of forces not affected by the body's natural mechanisms. Controlling an aspect of the body that is already under control of the body, albeit to a lesser degree, is not psi; it is discipline and training.

As a student of Ninpo Taijutsu, and a long-time advocate of the martial arts, I have heard more than my share of what Ki, Qui, and various other forces exists and supposedly help us. I have also seen martial artists not just skeptical, but downright contemptuous of such etherial forces break boards and blocks with as much ease as any other. It is a simple matter of mathematics and physics to generate the force required to overcome the sheer strength of whatever material you are going through, and I have seen the same people capable of smashing a board with their ki suddenly find themselves unable to when it was positioned in such a manner that the physical force from a moving hand was negated.

The power of the human will to overcome the limits that the mind has set on itself is almost legendary. Special Forces personnel are required, as a matter of course, to overcome these mental limitations within the first five weeks of their basic training. None of them will seriously make the claim that it was psi that gave them the ability to do so. These warriors are concerned with the immediate and practical, not the philosophical, yet they are as capable of meeting, and I would even say exceeding, any of the physical feats of any person claiming to come from Ki (read 'psi').

Okay.
This is like saying, when i raise my arm i'm using Psi.

Of course i am not. However, raising my arm is a form of mind-over-matter. The fact is, brain waves tell my arm to raise, and it is raised. Energy is used when raisng my arm. If i raise my arm several times fast, it gets hot.

This is not an unexplained form of magical Psi. It's just the body doing what it does. This actually goes along way to explaining what Psi is. As aquatus1 said, mystical to hear about, but it one way or another it's probably just a normal function of the body.

Raise your leg. Congratualtions, you just showed mind over matter. Fascinating, no?

That is when the brain sends messages to the muscles to move in their direction. That does mean the brain is controlling matter, but not how psi does it. In this topic, the form of psi is achieved through controlling energy.

The Tibetan Monks here did not move in any physical way, their blood flow did not accelarate to heat up the body. The Mind of the Tibetan monks happened to be able to control the heat in the body, or in other words, increase blood circulation........was not achieved in physical activities, but visualization and concentration.

Science has shown that things otherwise thought impossible can be achieved through meditation. Men can sustain the most extreme of extreme pains in a state of mediatation so deep they can actually cut themselves and not bleed.
If they can control their bodies enough to do this, i would think achieving warmth through meditation would be easy. Again, this is not controlling energies, simply controlling the human body and pushing it to the limits it can do.

Your thoughts on this?

The people who cut themselves and not bleed, they do control their blood, but with what? The mind can indeed control energy, but controlling the blood is a second thing.

Controlling blood after meditation is a way in which psi is used to create energy(increased blood circulation) and blood flow(prevents bleeding).

But energy is not created. It is NEVER created, never destroyed, only transfered from one thing to the next. If i flick a piece of paper, the energy is transfered from my finger to the paper which makes the paper react and move.
In this sense, no energy can be created from an extrenal source to stop bleeding, or warm the body, or anything else. So the energy used is all internal, inside the human body. Which is no psi, only expanding the currently unknown limitations of the human body.

Their blood flow did increase and it did heat up the body. This has been monitored through the use of both thermal imaging and isotope tracking. The method in which this occured was through the increase of the heartrate. The heart rate was increased through the use of visualization, in much the same way that your heartbeat will increase when you watch an action movie, or when you imaging yourself at the edge of an extremely high drop-off. The impressive thing about the monks is not they they are capable of doing this, but that they are capable of doing it for such extended periods. Anybody can reach their target anaerobic heartrate through visualization with a little practice.



People in deep meditation have their functions significantly reduced, like when they sleep, only more so. That they do not bleed is a simple result of the low blood pressure from the reduced heartbeat, coupled with the lack of tension in their bodies and the subsequent increase in volume capacity, and thus the almost immediate dialation of the exposed capillaries. In short, the capillaries are like a firehose with the water pressure suddenly shut down; it collapses in on itself.

This isn't even mystical. This is medical knowledge from several decades ago.

That is true. Then again, the human who conducts the energy flow within their body become very tired. The energy came from their food, consumptions, etc.


If the heart beat of the person were to rise and accelerate the blood flow of the person, constantly heating the blanket(in the site at beginning of topic), the person would get warmer and warmer and so hot that the blanket would eventually dry from its state of being wet.

Well, while the heartbeat rises, the body would sweat and become more tense. The man who conducted the experiment was relaxed and did not sweat. If he were to make his heartbeat rise for an hour, he would surely have been hot enough to dry a blanket, and sweat himself. The sweat would moisten the blanket more. The blanket however appeared completely dry.

I can't debate about this, its off topic . But If I would, the blood pressure would still be high enough for a conscious human being. Someone who is conscious can reduce their blood pressure, but all the way to stop the bleeding. A relaxed person meditating can lower their blood pressure so low. But if someone were to put a cut on the meditating persons arm, they would still be bleeding, even though the blood pressure is low.

P.S. I need someone else by my side....I can't debate with two skeptics.....

Yes, precisely, in the exact same way that our exercise gear dried off when we were marching back to the barracks after the morning workout. The monks, as part of their final exam, are actually draped in wet sheets one after the other, and have to see how many they can dry off over the course of the night



Incorrect. Don't forget the function of sweat is to decrease the internal temperature of the body. If the body is already draped in wet cloth, that wet cloth is transferring the heat out of the body, and no sweat needs to be formed (as far as the body is concerned, it's already there). In much the same way as a workout that would leave you dripping with sweat in temperate weather, exercising the same amount in a colder environment would leave you not as, or possibly even without any sweat at all. If the environment, be it cold air, or water soaked sheets, is effectively cooling you down, your body will not bother to create sweat.



No it isn't. You have advanced the notion that it is psi is an unknown force that can control the abilities of the body beyond that which is normal. We are presenting examples in which bodies perform feats beyond normal, but throughly explained, thus not needing any unknown force to explain them.



But we aren't talking about a conscious person. We are talking about a person in deep mediation, in which the mind is less reactive than even when it is in sleep mode. Simply being relaxed does not lead to this stage, and a person in a relaxed meditation would indeed bleed, though significantly less than an agitated person.

I can see how that works. But if not to sweat, the blanket would just get hot. The explanation of blood circulation can generate heat, but not enough heat so that the blanket would dry off. If the blanket were to dry off in just 1 hour, I don't think it would have been because of the blood circulation because the heart connot possible generate so much heat to dry off the blanket, but to just make it warm. As I saw the video in the site, the man dipped the blanket in water, and the outdoor temperature was 40 degrees below 0 Ferenheit. The blood circulation would just merely make the person warm and the blanket wouldn't get enought thermal energy for it to dry off in an hour.

I agree with that. But that still doesn't mean that low blood pressure would cancel off the possibility of bleeding. Meditation is a person in a current state of part concious, meaning while he is meditating, he still can control what goes on in his mind unlike dreams. But while meditating, his blood pressure cannot go to a level were it is so low that the blood pressure is dangerous, then they wouldn't want to meditate often, otherwise suffer low blood pressure. Bleeding can be slowed by low blood pressure, but that would be dangerous.

having fun?

Oh, you can generate more than enough heat to steam water off a blanket. Heck, we were steaming our shirts dry in the eight minutes it took to get to the barracks, and we weren't even trying. Incidentally, it isn't your heart generating the heat. All it does is distribute it through the blood to different parts of your body. Your body heat is the sum result of your metabolism, that is to say the production of energy within each individual cell. Your entire body, working as one giant cellular energy producing organism, is more than capable of generating that much heat (in this, at least, the Matrix got it right)

Remember, we aren't talking about boiling a pot of water. We are talking about a thin sheen within a wet cloth in direct contact with the skin. It doesn't take a huge amount of heat transfer from the skin to the water to make it evaporate.



Deep meditation involves no consciouness at all. It is a state only a few steps away from a coma. It is something that is only done in very special (or unintentional) circumstances, when the risks are outweighed by the benefits. We aren't talking about the Yoga club's weekly get-together. And, of course, when we speak of bleeding, we aren't talking about nicking an artery, or for that matter, even a vein. As I said, we are talking about capillaries. Very small, so small that red blood cells are usually forced to travel single file.



Yes, actually! This forum is becoming something like a hobby to me.

my friends dad does that martial arts stuff where he kinda moves around with his eyes closed breathing steady. I hink he does that cuz his hands are extremely hard and their always very warm.(No, Im not gay)

That maybe so, but the mind may have still been the one responsible to blood circulation acceleration. The mind controls the heart, in turn is responsible for blood circulation. This all may not be that metaphysical, but it all wasn't from the cause of physical activity.

bottom line- i probably lost

Yes, the risks out weigh the benefits, and a meditation is also like in a trance, conscience is inside the mind, not outside. When in meditation, the blood pressure is low. That lowers the speed of the blood flow, probably decreasing the rate at which the blood would be exported by means of a cut. 0 blood pressure, 0 flow, no blood comingout...they would come out, just slowly. Anyway, I still think that preventing blood from secreting is not from the explation of blood pressure.


No, because debating against a superior isn't fun, because I always end up losing....

*wince*

Sorry, didn't mean to sound superior. I tend towards arrogance, but I am trying to work on that.

*wonders if there is a twelve step program for that*

aquatus1!! I hope I didn't offend you!! By means of superior, your more experienced in debating than I am !!

You did after all teach me how to make a proper hypothesis.

I hope I didn't offend you by saying that.....I didn't mean superior like a superior human being, but better at debating than I am .

looks like it is over *leaves bomb shelter*

aww man for a moment there, I was thinking that human physiology course was FINALLY going to come in handy...but I missed it

What do you mean? You need PROOF ?

It depends wether you believe in what you hear or not.....but if you want proof, only you can achieve it .

Make a psiwheel and give it a week or two.....

its over?? *phew* thank the goddess. i hadnt posted for a while coz of the debate flying around here

one problem with that Hailo... if you dont want to believe it wont worlk because then its negativity instead of positivity. so it'd onyl work if you acted "on the fence"

And the problem with that is that you are then giving psi a property that is not shared by any force or energy in the physical universe. You are saying that a force exists only because we humans wish it to be so, and by extension, if we humans do not believe it to be so, then it disappears.

A little much, don't you think? Are humans truly so arrogant that they believe that the fabric of reality will mold itself to their desires? That a power capable of affecting the physical world will, without their attention, vanish into thin air?

How could we possibly believe that there is something that cannot survive without our belief? It smacks of Peter Pan's faeries. This mysterious force, if existing, would be the only one of its kind. No other energy in the universe gives a twig as to what our personal thoughts on the matter are.

oh god not again *hides*

for the love of...! Aquatus all i was saying is that if your gonna be negative dont bother trying it becoz its not gonna work if you dont want it too mind over matter! and yes the human race is arogant but i doubt highly that all of us are! i dont think any of the people who practice Psi here really believe they can mold the fabric or wotever you said! we just either want to see if it works or know it works. its like in wicca you cast a healing spell to help you from a cold if you mope aboot it all day long and hten cast it it has aboot at least 12hours of negative programming to get through!!

And all that I am saying is that statement is a cop-out. This thread is specifically talking about proof, and using that statement, there is absolutely no way to prove that psychic powers exist or not. If the experiment works, great, then you have psychic powers; if it doesn't, then you just didn't believe enough. This is a non-falsifiable statement, and cannot, therefore, be used as proof. Proof, by its very definition has to be falsifiable. Like every other theory in existance, there has to be a way for it to be proven to be false.

I understand that you dislike confrontation and that you feel the need to duck and cover, I generally stay out of the psychic support threads because I feel that they were begun in the spirit of assuming that psi exists and going from there, and since I do not believe, I stay out of it. If, however, a thread talks about evidence, proof, and theories, then at that point I will state my case as well as I can, with the proper support, and will not allow simplistic arguments and bad science to be presented without debate. I am as passionate about supporting science as others are about supporting psi. If you wish to support psi with your beliefs, go right ahead. If you are in a science based thread, however, do not expect your beliefs to go unchallenged, nor to be given the same credibility as logic and science.

glad its not my debate

good luck you two, especially Arwen.....not to experienced on debating...

request for assistance?

Help: Believing in something(call it ST) is a true confidence and thinks positively that ST will take action and will come true. However, disbelieving in ST, thinking negatively will blanken and blind the mind of thoughts such as: "What am I doing? Its not gonna work!!" or "Come on!!! I might as well do something worth while!!". The posotive believer would think "This will work, give it more time" or "What can I do to do better so it works, o! I know...."

I didn't mean to intrude, but to assist .

There is a certain amount of truth in how the mind can limit the body's potential, as any coach, drill instructer, personal trainer can attest to, however the effect is vastly overratted. The mind limit might keep a runner from breaking the 5 minute mile, but he is still going to be quite a runner. It might keep the weightlifter from doing that last clean and jerk, but he will still be capable of performing. The gain from breaking through the mind limit is only one of seconds or ounces at most; truly, something only significant at the competition level. The most positive mindset in existence won't get a 35% body-fat person to run 1 mile in ten minutes, especially if that person hasn't trained at all.

The mind limit argument can only be used when there is something to limit. It can't be used as an excuse for something not existing at all.

It is impossible(funny, coming from me) that you can survive in below 0 degrees without the littlelist bit of warmth. You'd just simply freeze over. Besides, you don't just dry up a wet blanket by "adjusting to the tempereture". I mean seriously . Common.

Doesn't matter, you can still control heat, which is most probably energy.
After heating yourself up with a heavy bikeride you will most probably really hot and steaming and stuff, but wouldn't it just be a little different doing it sitting still?

Thank you

We'll, that was fun wasn't it? The whole debate thing i mean. Phew that was crazy.

My attemps to proove psi has, as aquatus1 might say, "failed miserably" but hey, can't blame a person for trying .

Ah yeah, thanks Hailo_hellFIRE, for supporting for as long as you could but with those guys out there i don't know, scary.

yeah PsiSeeker, we believers better watch our step....we might enter the debate zone .....

I don't like stepping into it because there is too much line of fire and you can get shot down easily if you don't watch what your firing at .

Yes, if I was outside for enough time, but that wasnt my point. My point was, I can feel perfectly (well, almost) comfortable, once adjusted to the cold weather, to walk around outside in my tshirt in that weather.

Peoples return to your bomb shelters because i'm going to challenge this.

Your info suplied is either incorrect or faulty. The tibetan monks would have to keep their body temperatures high, like you said, sweat cools the body and the wet cloth is already their however since the body is going to have to keep high temperatures to dry the cloth off completely and the body would therefor have to constantly supply sweat because you're insides would still be heated, even if there is a wet cloth wrapped around you. As far as your body would be concerned you will still be hot and it would need to cool you therefore supplying more sweat.

If this is faulty then read this. You'd have to keep hot through the whole of the excercise if you are to completely dry of the wet cloth. The wetness would gradually decrease and you'd be hot and the body would therefore have to start supplying sweat. Even with this the guy never actually reports being hot all he says on how he felt is This suggests that the guy probably dried the cloth of in another method. I dunno, still a bit foggy .

Yes i'm finally learning how to become better at debating.

When does water freeze? Your blood does contain water doesn't it? Seriously, go to Antarica and stay allive for a day. .Be a bit more serious man.

Okay people, i'm gettin nervous. If i said anythin that could have caused this forum to be so eerily silent let me know please

Hmm...how to explain...

Okay, to understand this, you need to know a little bit about how the body senses information. Precision readings are very rare. The body is not very good at figuring out what level things are at. For instance, the body cannot sense speed. It cannot evaluate how fast you are moving without outside reference. What it can detect, however, is acceleration or deceleration. In other words, what the body can detect is rate of change.

The same thing applies to heat. A person with a fever, unless he is stuck in bed and has little else to think about, can rarely detect a fever. They usually detect the other symptoms of a cold before they check for fever. Small children, whose hyper little bodies are always eager to overreact, can produce a full fever in a little under ten minutes, and thus produce a sizeable enough change to be detected. Otherwise, the only place most people can actually sense excess heat is through the ears, where the membrane is thin enough for dissipation (rate of change) to occur.

So let's get back to our intrepid and waterlogged monks. Their bodies, unofficially, have three levels (warning: this is not biologically correct; this is greatly simplified) of heat dispersal. Level one is the standard radiation from the skin. Level two involves increasing circulation to the skin so that the rate of radiation increases, due to the higher quantity of warm blood at the surface of the skin (this usually produces a very 'flushed' appearance). Level three requires the addition of evaporation (sweat) in addition to radiation.

When our young monk initiate sits in his cave and is draped with the wet blanket (in more civilized societies, we would probably call this hazing, but what the heck), his body, through the power of intense meditation, begins producing heat. In and of itself, this is nothing unusual to it. The first line of defense against infection is usually an increase in heat, such as a fever, to kill bacteria. The thing is, though, that the body really can't tell how hot it is making things. The body has a very limited amount of information to work with. It will stop making heat only when certain conditions have been met; either the bacteria must be gone, the mind must be in danger (considering the speed at which this can happen, this is the least preffered trigger), or if the cycle is broken externally (through the use of ice packs on the body).

Now, the monk's body is not aware of any infection. And it is told to override the ice pack clause. It simply understands that it has been ordered to produce heat and that is that. In order to keep the organs safe, it shifts to level two of heat dispersal. There is a certain amount of hot blood going out to the skin, and there is a certain amount of cold blood coming back into the core body. Satisfied that heat exchange is taking place, it then checks to make sure the mind is within tolerance limits. The mind is fine. It checks the body again and finds it is still too hot, so the process continues. As long as there is a decent rate of heat exchange and the mind is safe, the body is not too concerned with time. The body does not need to switch to level three, because the rate of change is satisfactory. Only if the heat within the body increased to a level at which there was danger to the organs would the body react and increase the rate of heat dispersal. If it doesn't need to, it won't (the body is lazy like that).

Now, this can be done with a single sheet, although the monks actually do it the entire night and are evaluated on the number of sheets they dry out. There is, of course, a certain fluctuation of temperature as dry sheets are removed and wet ones are replaced, however the body, only interested in the rate of change and the safety of the organs, won't react dramatically. Since it only senses rate of change, and not actual temperature, there is a certain level of heat retention which acts as a buffer zone.

Did I explain that well enough?

Yes, you explained enough, but how is the organs endangered through a bikeride?

Your body must certainly experience change when the blanket dries of and you're still producing enough heat to cause evaporation. Enough heat must be generated to dry the blanket and it doesn't, as you said, have to be very high. But it does have to be high enough to be capable of causing evaporation and as far as i'm concerned water evaporates only at certain temperetures at certain speeds. Now, the guy did it in an hour no? Now we have to add the fact that their in cold weather so the heat has to be brought up another notch because the weather around him will make sure the blanket experiences certain levels of coldness. Wouldn't you have to start sweating if your body starts to cause evaprorarion? The actual person wouldn't be experiencing any cold because they either don't think their cold or of the heat coming of their skin.