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aquatus1
QUOTE
Yes, you explained enough, but how is the organs endangered through a bikeride?


They are not. The heat was caused from the unusually heavy exercise. The only time danger to the organs comes into play is during heavy fevers.

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Enough heat must be generated to dry the blanket and it doesn't, as you said, have to be very high. But it does have to be high enough to be capable of causing evaporation and as far as i'm concerned water evaporates only at certain temperetures at certain speeds.


No...you are thinking of boiling. You are thinking of water transitioning to gas. That is not what happens with evaporation. In evaporation, the water from your sweat is diffusing into the air, not boiling off into it (water vapor, not water gas). Evaporation is more a product of the surface area and mass vs heat input. On the molecular level, water molecules are always moving around, on the surface, some molecules manage to escape from the rest and go off into the air. Eventually, all the molecules escape this way. If you add more energy to these molecules, such as with heat, then they move faster, and consequently escape at a higher rate.

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Wouldn't you have to start sweating if your body starts to cause evaprorarion?


You would only begin sweating if your body decided that it needed to get rid of heat at a faster rate, i.e. if it sensed that your organs were in danger.
PsiSeeker
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You would only begin sweating if your body decided that it needed to get rid of heat at a faster rate, i.e. if it sensed that your organs were in danger.


But if my organs aren't in danger through a bike ride why do start sweating?

QUOTE
No...you are thinking of boiling. You are thinking of water transitioning to gas. That is not what happens with evaporation. In evaporation, the water from your sweat is diffusing into the air, not boiling off into it (water vapor, not water gas). Evaporation is more a product of the surface area and mass vs heat input. On the molecular level, water molecules are always moving around, on the surface, some molecules manage to escape from the rest and go off into the air. Eventually, all the molecules escape this way. If you add more energy to these molecules, such as with heat, then they move faster, and consequently escape at a higher rate.


How much heat will you have to add for this to happen in an hour? Get rid of all of the water i mean.

The blanket that the guy used doesn't really appear to be terribly thin.

You have to start sweating at one point or another wouldn't you. I'm wearing a jumper and i don't think wrapping a wet cloth/blanket thing around myself will dry off if i my body temp were to stay the same. And i'm sweating a bit in my armpits even though i don't exactly feel terribly hot.
Stellar
Whoah! I forgot about this thread. Anyway, Im not gonna get into anything new in this thread cuz I'll end up forgetting to come back and check on it, so I'll stick to clarifying what I said.

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When does water freeze? Your blood does contain water doesn't it? Seriously, go to Antarica and stay allive for a day.  .Be a bit more serious man.


Yes it does. I never said I could survive in antarctica for a day without a coat. My point was, after I got used to the winter here, I could spend a good 15-20 min outside in my tshirt without feeling too uncomfortable. If I spent enough time outside in the cold, yeah, my blood could freeze, but its not going to in 15-20 min.
PsiSeeker
QUOTE(Stellar @ Oct 3 2004, 09:53 PM)
Whoah! I forgot about this thread. Anyway, Im not gonna get into anything new  in this thread cuz I'll end up forgetting to come back and check on it, so I'll stick to clarifying what I said.

QUOTE
When does water freeze? Your blood does contain water doesn't it? Seriously, go to Antarica and stay allive for a day.  .Be a bit more serious man.


Yes it does. I never said I could survive in antarctica for a day without a coat. My point was, after I got used to the winter here, I could spend a good 15-20 min outside in my tshirt without feeling too uncomfortable. If I spent enough time outside in the cold, yeah, my blood could freeze, but its not going to in 15-20 min.
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Good Point
PsiSeeker
Okay aquatus1 her's another one i thought up for you to solve since the sweating one is getting a bit rammed into the ground,

When your blood speed rises, your heart starts beating faster, you'd start breathing faster because you'd be bumping more carbon dioxide. However this only noramlly happens when your muscles and other organs needs more oxygen because of working harder than normal. You'd start to become light headed and stuff like that. I'd sit still on the ground and start breathing a lot faster and i'd become warmer aswell as light headed and uncomfortable. As was previously mentioned, they guy doing the exercise is relaxed and doesn't seem perplexed or uncomfartable.
gufzoo
I actually had kind of an experience with this yesterday. I'd been studying all day at this book store. The whole time I just kept feeling hot, off and on. This seems to happen when I'm especially charged up. For example, when I get stressed out I tend to get fevers (which also happens to be when psionic stuff happens). I have a ginormous test next week, which I guess explains the being charged-up thing.

So I'm sitting there sweltering, and I think "Why not try to channel the energy to make me cold?" So I just sit there for about five minutes, just channeling the energy, imagining that I'm pushing the heat away from me. And spent the next hour freezing my a$$ off! I felt my core temp drop first, but my legs still felt warm, so I just focused channeling the cold for my legs, and it worked! Everyone else around me looked comfy, but I'm sitting there in a sweatshirt and jeans, shivering!

Guys, give this a try if you have a few minutes. It's pretty easy!
aquatus1
QUOTE(PsiSeeker @ Oct 9 2004, 02:05 AM)
Okay aquatus1 her's another one i thought up for you to solve since the sweating one is getting a bit rammed into the ground,

When your blood speed rises, your heart starts beating faster, you'd start breathing faster because you'd be bumping more carbon dioxide.  However this only noramlly happens when your muscles and other organs needs more oxygen because of working harder than normal.  You'd start to become light headed and stuff like that.  I'd sit still on the ground and start breathing a lot faster and i'd become warmer aswell as light headed and uncomfortable.  As was previously mentioned, they guy doing the exercise is relaxed and doesn't seem perplexed or uncomfartable.
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The difference here is in the source of the heat production. When you are exerciseing, or riding a bike, the heat is coming from your muscle movement, and the energy they are generating. The working of a muscle uses dramatically more energy than any other organ. It is also fairly efficient in that it demands and gets pretty much exactly what it needs in terms of oxygen and energy from the body. If you were to force it, such as increasing your oxygen level without a need for it by your muscles, then you would feel light headed. If, however, you simply take in as much oxygen as you need, you feel normal. The guy you are talking about was doing any sort of muscle work. His heat came from an increase in his metabolism, i.e. in the production of energy from his blood cells as opposed to his muscles. The energy demands for this are much lower than they are for the huge muscle systems the body has, so much less oxygen and energy is needed. This is why he doesn't seem all that bothered. He doesn't need to be.
PsiSeeker
QUOTE(aquatus1 @ Oct 12 2004, 04:40 PM)
QUOTE(PsiSeeker @ Oct 9 2004, 02:05 AM)
Okay aquatus1 her's another one i thought up for you to solve since the sweating one is getting a bit rammed into the ground,

When your blood speed rises, your heart starts beating faster, you'd start breathing faster because you'd be bumping more carbon dioxide.  However this only noramlly happens when your muscles and other organs needs more oxygen because of working harder than normal.  You'd start to become light headed and stuff like that.  I'd sit still on the ground and start breathing a lot faster and i'd become warmer aswell as light headed and uncomfortable.  As was previously mentioned, they guy doing the exercise is relaxed and doesn't seem perplexed or uncomfartable.
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The difference here is in the source of the heat production. When you are exerciseing, or riding a bike, the heat is coming from your muscle movement, and the energy they are generating. The working of a muscle uses dramatically more energy than any other organ. It is also fairly efficient in that it demands and gets pretty much exactly what it needs in terms of oxygen and energy from the body. If you were to force it, such as increasing your oxygen level without a need for it by your muscles, then you would feel light headed. If, however, you simply take in as much oxygen as you need, you feel normal. The guy you are talking about was doing any sort of muscle work. His heat came from an increase in his metabolism, i.e. in the production of energy from his blood cells as opposed to his muscles. The energy demands for this are much lower than they are for the huge muscle systems the body has, so much less oxygen and energy is needed. This is why he doesn't seem all that bothered. He doesn't need to be.
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Yes, but you said that the his blood rate speed thing increased. Blood Passes past the lungs faster and it has to (i think) collect oxygen and drop of carbon dioxide. Can a red blood cell pass by without bothering to pick up or drop anything? I'm not sure but if something doesn't need as much, oxygen for instance, it just won't bother to take it? Otherwise it wouldn't really make sense would it?
Anyway, when mum told me about this she did say that the scientist guys on the tele could not after doeing reasearch ofcourse, figure out how the tibetan monks did it.

[EDIT:fixed tags]
aquatus1
QUOTE
Yes, but you said that the his blood rate speed thing increased. Blood Passes past the lungs faster and it has to (i think) collect oxygen and drop of carbon dioxide.


His blood speed? To the best of my knowledge, you were the one that brought that up. The only reference that I have made is to a change in rate of heat exchange. That does not necessarily (or even usually) require a faster pulse. The reason your heart beats faster in exercise is because the cells in your muscles need the oxygen, not because they need to generate heat. Heat is just the by-product. Heat can also be created directly through the metabolism of the blood, without the need for extra oxygen to be ferried to the muscles, and therefore without the need for an increased heartrate.

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Anyway, when mum told me about this she did say that the scientist guys on the tele could not after doeing reasearch ofcourse, figure out how the tibetan monks did it.


Yes, well, the tele says a great many things. They usually relate directly to the desires of the person paying for the show.

SoulSlayer_X
Well, i've been following this for a bit and I believe it's time to take PsiSeeker's side.

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In evaporation, the water from your sweat is diffusing into the air, not boiling off into it (water vapor, not water gas)

Vapors are gas. Evaporation is also where water transitions to a gas phase. Boiling water just speeds this up.

That's all I got for now, I'm going to see if anyone will even reply before I say anything else.
XPyromaniacX
I can send a heat wave through my body from head to toe at will. It's not all that powerful but when i do it repeatedly when just sitting somewhere inside or outside it does warm me up very effectively.
Ashta
i've heard my share of changing temperatures...in the air, or in water. stuff like that. it could be psi...depends on the energy soarce. it could also be the result of tk. but im not sure what exactly it is...then again, we dont know EVERY abiltity...it could be entirely different but psi or tk.
aquatus1
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Vapors are gas. Evaporation is also where water transitions to a gas phase. Boiling water just speeds this up.


Actually, if anything, you are taking my side.

This is more semantics than anything else, but since you believe it needs to be clarified, I will do so.

A gas and a vapor are essentially the same thing chemically, but the usage of the word is different. When we speak of water vapor, what we are referring to is an aerosol; that is a gas with droplets of water floating within it. A gas is generally taken to be completly free of droplets. In the conversation that my statement responded to, the statement that was being made was that water only turned to gas at a specific temperature. This was obviously referring to the boiling point of water, in which liquid changes into gas. The reason I distinctly made mention of vapor was to point out that the boiling point is not the only way in which liquid would disappear from the cloth; in other words, the water did not need to be boiled off. It simply needed sufficient energy to become water vapor.

Now, in common civilian usage, the two words are, for all intents and purposes, interchangeable. In scientific usage, they do represent two different states, one saturated, the other unsaturated. In my case, as I said, it was only to point out that the boiling temperature need not be reached in order to dry the wet sheets.
SoulSlayer_X
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In my case, as I said, it was only to point out that the boiling temperature need not be reached in order to dry the wet sheets.

What you say is true, it could be one of many things that could have dried those sheets.
But, this possibility of almost anything is what hurts the cases of both our sides.
We can work for ages trying to prove and disprove, but with that almost endless ammount of possibilities, we will spend ages more working around that. This is really more of a 'What-do-you-believe' case, one that would be damn near impossible for either side to prove or disprove.
aquatus1
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What you say is true, it could be one of many things that could have dried those sheets.
But, this possibility of almost anything is what hurts the cases of both our sides.
We can work for ages trying to prove and disprove, but with that almost endless ammount of possibilities, we will spend ages more working around that. This is really more of a 'What-do-you-believe' case, one that would be damn near impossible for either side to prove or disprove


I disagree. I disagree completely. We have the amount of water present in the sheets, we have the amount of heat available on the human skin to evaporate the water, we have the physical capacity to increase that heat as well. This isn't a case of IF strange powers exist, IF mystical things occur, If unexplained phenomena is there; No, this is well established, long documented, easily reproducible physical events.

However many 'almost anythings' you wish to pile on top of the phenomena, the simple fact of the matter is that everything needed for it to occur already exists. We have the smoking gun. Not a possible one, but one that is present and measurable. One cannot equate an argument with imperical evidence and logical support to a mere 'What if?' simply in the name of open-mindedness. There comes a point that you must ask yourself, "Okay, what does the evidence point to?". If not, you will condemn yourself to a lifetime of possibilities, but never any conclusions.

In short, there is not "this possibility of almost anything'. There is a specific effect, and there is a specific cause. A direct, reproducible, verifiable cause, that continues to exists, no matter what you choose to believe.
PsiSeeker
QUOTE(aquatus1 @ Oct 16 2004, 02:31 PM)
QUOTE
Yes, but you said that the his blood rate speed thing increased. Blood Passes past the lungs faster and it has to (i think) collect oxygen and drop of carbon dioxide.


His blood speed? To the best of my knowledge, you were the one that brought that up. The only reference that I have made is to a change in rate of heat exchange. That does not necessarily (or even usually) require a faster pulse. The reason your heart beats faster in exercise is because the cells in your muscles need the oxygen, not because they need to generate heat. Heat is just the by-product. Heat can also be created directly through the metabolism of the blood, without the need for extra oxygen to be ferried to the muscles, and therefore without the need for an increased heartrate.

QUOTE
Anyway, when mum told me about this she did say that the scientist guys on the tele could not after doeing reasearch ofcourse, figure out how the tibetan monks did it.


Yes, well, the tele says a great many things. They usually relate directly to the desires of the person paying for the show.
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Truely disgust.gif but how does your body exactly generate heat through no friction or possible speed of blood flow huh.gif . According to mum, they said that what they think caused it, what you stated, should have given their bodies such a great shock that they should die. This is not however the case, they remain perfectly calm.
Stellar
QUOTE(XPyromaniacX @ Oct 16 2004, 06:35 PM)
I can send a heat wave through my body from head to toe at will. It's not all that powerful but when i do it repeatedly when just sitting somewhere inside or outside it does warm me up very effectively.
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Lol, you mean the thing where you kind of shiver for a sec and you feel something happening by ur spine?
aquatus1
QUOTE
Truely  but how does your body exactly generate heat through no friction or possible speed of blood flow . According to mum, they said that what they think caused it, what you stated, should have given their bodies such a great shock that they should die. This is not however the case, they remain perfectly calm.


I don't believe I ever mentioned friction as a source of heat. My words were:

"When you are exercising, or riding a bike, the heat is coming from your muscle movement, and the energy they are generating. The working of a muscle uses dramatically more energy than any other organ."

Combine this with something else I said:

"The reason your heart beats faster in exercise is because the cells in your muscles need the oxygen, not because they need to generate heat. Heat is just the by-product. Heat can also be created directly through the metabolism of the blood, without the need for extra oxygen to be ferried to the muscles, and therefore without the need for an increased heartrate."

I'm not sure how exact you want the explanation to be, so here is a brief summary: The source of the heat is the metabolization of ATP (simple sugars) into ADP+P. The breakdown of this molecule provides the energy needed for cellular reaction, as well as a certain quantity of excess heat as a by-product (this is due to certain laws of energy that forbid a complete translation of one energy type to another. There is always wasted energy). Since muscles need more energy for cellular reaction, they produce more heat. Blood, on the other hand, doesn't need as much energy to carry on its function of carrying oxygen through out the system, so it produces less heat. The heat produced, however is still enough to warm the body very effectively (and sometimes too much so, such as when you have a fever). The way the excess heat gets to the surface of the skin without increasing the heartrate is through the dialation of the surface blood vessels, which give the skin that flushed, feverish look, due to the higher quantity of blood at the surface.

There is really no reason why this should put your system into shock. The body is quite capable of speeding up and slowing down your mtabolism as needed. I would need more specific information on what your mother was talking about before attempting to explain.
Panthera leo atrox
tongue.gif
arwenpotter
hee hee nice panthera!! *joins in*
PsiSeeker
Just to clear certain things up, i'm trying to convince you , aquatus1, that sweat has to be caused when heating up in the way your telling/typping me. And now you're explaining to me how heat is generated and that this you don't need to sweat to be able to do this.

Maybe i should just try the damn thing or drop the subject now.

Erm, when does water evaporate. What tempereture. Its sort of been nagging at me and you appear damn smart in this sort of subject.
aquatus1
Water evaporates continously. If you wet your hands, the water will evaporate off completely within five minutes. The speed at which evaporation occurs depends on several things, chief among them: The amount of heat added, the quantity of water, and the surface area of the water. Let's say that you have a cup of water sitting in a glass. Since the quantity of water is the same, that is no longer a variable, but in a glass, the only surface area that the water has is the open space on top. That means that out of all the H2O molecules that are flying around within the water, the only ones that have a chance to fly off into the atmosphere are the ones on the very surface where the water meets the air. Eventually, all of them will get their turn and fly off, but it will take some time. The hotter the ambient temperature, the more energy the molecules have, and the faster they will evaporate. Now, let's take that exact same cup of water, but instead of a glass, let's use it to wash a slab of concrete. Now the quantity of water is spread out over a large surface and the surface area has increased dramatically. This means that many, many more water molecules have access to free air, and can jet away from the mass of water. No more waiting in line. Heck, it may happen so fast that you don't even get a chance to spread all the water out before it begins evaporating.

This is essentially what is happening when the cloth is dried. A small amount of water is spread out through the large surface area of the cloth. Added to that is the heat source that is the human body. All this comes together to evaporate the water from the cloth, effectively drying it.

Now, of course there are many other variable sin real life, such as humidity, wind factor, etc, but the physics of drying a cloth with a body are very simple, and can be easily understood with a basic course of study. It is very similar to setting water to boil on a stove and then staring at it and forcing the water to boil with your mind. No matter what physic abilities you possess, the fact remains that everything that you need to get the water to boil is already present, and if you wish to prove them real you will first have to remove the known cause for the effect.

As far as sweating goes, no, there is no mechanical system that guarantees that this mechanism will occur when this set of conditions has been met. The body is not a machine that reacts in predictable and reliable ways; the body is a dynamic living system and makes mistakes and changes on a regular basis. When regulating heat, it only cares about two things: Is it getting hotter? and Are we getting rid of heat fast enough? If the internal temperature of the body, despite being overly hot, is not increasing at an alarming rate, then the rate of heat loss is sufficient and the body will not activate another system to supplement it. The only time it will activate the other system (usually), is if the body is generating heat faster than it is dissipating it.
PsiSeeker
QUOTE(aquatus1 @ Oct 23 2004, 02:22 PM)
Water evaporates continously.  If you wet your hands, the water will evaporate off completely within five minutes.  The speed at which evaporation occurs depends on several things, chief among them:  The amount of heat added, the quantity of water, and the surface area of the water.  Let's say that you have a cup of water sitting in a glass.  Since the quantity of water is the same, that is no longer a variable, but in a glass, the only surface area that the water has is the open space on top.  That means that out of all the H2O molecules that are flying around within the water, the only ones that have a chance to fly off into the atmosphere are the ones on the very surface where the water meets the air.  Eventually, all of them will get their turn and fly off, but it will take some time.  The hotter the ambient temperature, the more energy the molecules have, and the faster they will evaporate.  Now, let's take that exact same cup of water, but instead of a glass, let's use it to wash a slab of concrete.  Now the quantity of water is spread out over a large surface and the surface area has increased dramatically.  This means that many, many more water molecules have access to free air, and can jet away from the mass of water.  No more waiting in line.  Heck, it may happen so fast that you don't even get a chance to spread all the water out before it begins evaporating.

This is essentially what is happening when the cloth is dried.  A small amount of water is spread out through the large surface area of the cloth.  Added to that is the heat source that is the human body.  All this comes together to evaporate the water from the cloth, effectively drying it.

Now, of course there are many other variable sin real life, such as humidity, wind factor, etc, but the physics of drying a cloth with a body are very simple, and can be easily understood with a basic course of study.  It is very similar to setting water to boil on a stove and then staring at it and forcing the water to boil with your mind.  No matter what physic abilities you possess, the fact remains that everything that you need to get the water to boil is already present, and if you wish to prove them real you will first have to remove the known cause for the effect.

As far as sweating goes, no, there is no mechanical system that guarantees that this mechanism will occur when this set of conditions has been met.  The body is not a machine that reacts in predictable and reliable ways; the body is a dynamic living system and makes mistakes and changes on a regular basis.  When regulating heat, it only cares about two things:  Is it getting hotter? and Are we getting rid of heat fast enough?  If the internal temperature of the body, despite being overly hot, is not increasing at an alarming rate, then the rate of heat loss is sufficient and the body will not activate another system to supplement it.  The only time it will activate the other system (usually), is if the body is generating heat faster than it is dissipating it.
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How come then when it was raining at lets say 12 midnight, and there was a thin layer of water spread across the top of my outside balcony it didn't dry up. Would this be because it was cold. (I intend no sarcasm or am trying to debate/attack you in a fromal way, just curious. Honestly)
arwenpotter
Goddess... you two neevr stop going at it do ya.... blink.gif





grin2.gif
rachelkleypassparrow
Heat is thermal energy and the mind can regulate the body temperature at will. There is thermal, kinetic and gravitational energy which is known to man. Psi energy is just a manipulation of these other energies.

Hasn't anybody got an electric shock from their carpets and seen the blue spark? Consider the energy potential within the body that is untapped-remember we only use a small percentage of our brain. If we were to tap into the full potential of the mind-we would be surprised at the outcome.
firefemme1202
http://www.doversolo.com/antartica.htm

Check out that site, it's about this woman....

"In 2002, at 45, wearing just a bathing suit, goggles and a swimming cap, she became the first person to swim a mile in the near-freezing Antarctic Ocean."

"When she was a student at the University of California, Santa Barbara, Cox and her remarkable physiology began to attract the attention of medical researchers. They discovered that she possessed ''neutral buoyancy'' because her ''proportion of fat to muscle is perfectly balanced.'' She expends her energy moving forward, not fighting to stay afloat. Her evenly distributed body fat acts like ''an internal wet suit.'' The researchers also learned that she was so fit, she did not get colder at the core, as most people do on their way to becoming hypothermic. In freezing water she was able to maintain and even increase her body temperature."

This woman has, in a sense, the "perfect" body to swim in freezing water while anyone one of us would submit to hypothermia before making it 100 feet. As bodies are built differently, and the more healthy we are, I'm sure it would be to our benefit because we would have more control over what our bodies can do.

PsiSeeker
This is starting to scare me *looks to right and left* huh.gif

Here is another one for you. This chinese training martial artian guy(I think i might have mentioned this previously) Is able to contro hi supossed energy. Okay, accirding to what you said your whole body would have to release the energy simultaneously. This guy said that he was gonna concentrate the energy to his hand i think.

Using a heat sensing thing it actually showed a large amount of redness moving from his abdomen area to his hand. It was moving, actuallu moving. Sorry, i had to point that out several times tongue.gif *looks left to right*Not standing still. This was done by gathering the energy in his body he claims. Anyways, this caused him to through a pin through a 2-3cm glass wall.

Could you explain this one away?
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