No, I am saying we are all sinners from birth.

Let me clarify what sin is though, because I am finding that a lot of people have strong negative emotional reactions to that word.

Sin is just the things we do that are not the creatures of perfect love that God intended us to be.



"Christian values" is a pretty diverse statement. Christians are a lot more diverse than people realize. While their are some Christians who believe it is their duty to regulate the behavior of other people, others believe it is their duty to help in the world, with things like aids, hunger, etc...

I belong to the later. Our church has missions to countries around the world, to help build villages and provide basic supplies and techniques to improve living. Our churh is concerned about the aids pandemic. the bishop of our church actually wrote a letter to both presidential candidates asking them to focus more on the aids pandemic and issues like it.

I believe their is room for homosexuals within Christianity. I do believe it is a sin, but I believe that we are all sinners. None of us always acts as the perfectly loving creatures God intended us to be 100% of the time. It is beyond our capabilities.

Then the world sorely lacks people like you.

You dont seem to be one of the ones that are not ... your claiming your not bigoted aginst gays but at the same time you claim it is a sin to be gay .

For the same reasons I would think a person who says its a sin to have black skin is a bigot , I think your a gay basher .

Xeno, you're being a little harsh here. Gay basher carries all the connotations of hate crime, of publicly proclaiming the inferiority of homosexuals. To be accused of gay bashing is to be accused of an active intolerance; of having a desire to see the homosexuals openly ridiculed and exposed to scorn.

If, however, a person believes that another's actions, way of life, skin color, what have you, are wrong for whatever reason, yet chooses not to let that affect their relationship with that person, that is tolerance. The willful suspension of your own personal beliefs, the acceptance that others are different, that is tolerance.

Thinking isn't the crime. Actions are. Thinking a homosexual is a sinner is not a crime. Being a gay basher is.

Xeno,

I think he just "assumes" being gay is a sin. It really isn't. It is just frowned apon by lots of people. There will be a day when it is accepted world wide. It has only been public for a few decades.

I honestly want to see more compassion towards homosexuals, especially from the fundamentalists who always talk of condemning homosexuals to hell. Fundamentalists can be very judgemental on their perceptions of right and wrong.

I think we are all sinners, but God loves us despite our sin.

Thats great that you think this way. However it should not even be a question to consider whether there is room in the church for homosexuals. I thought in the bible we are all God's children?

No-one has the right to condem a person because of their sexual preferences. Isn't it that someone who condems another a sin anyway? Not that I believe in that.
People have the birth right to be happy and live the life they choose and not to be dictated to. People need to mind their own business.

How can a baby sin - by messing it's pants or spitting up or maybe impure thougths....I can't see it....In fact early Xians believed children were innocent until age 9 or 10.

I agree. Unfortunately, too many Christians are focused on condemning others.



Again I agree, condemning another is a sin too.

Keep in mind that sin is not condemnation. Sin is just a part of who we all (myself included) are.

At birth, we all have within us 2 aspects to our person, the Good loving person that God intended us to be and the sinner. The sinner has a hard time exercising its power over people in the early years, because babies are not physically developed enough to let it out and psychologically developed enough to fall prey to its lures.

As to the exact time when sin is first able to rear its ugly head, I'm not sure when exactly that is. It could be as early as the terrible twos, or as late as teenagers.

True that independant does seem to be better off then most . One can tell that by the last few posts ... Ive ran into much worse . Although I still find it intolerant to say being gay is a sin , and to back it up with "gawd sayz so" is pretty lame . All one needs to feel bad is to have someone call them a sinner for something they cannot control , but it is better then beating them up and telling them they will go to hell over and over again .

GSR, I have deleted your post. For multiple reasons primary among them is that the material you posted is spam in my opinion. It is a request for money by the authors.

Secondarily, it skates the razors edge of being "hate" based material. The first paragraph sets the tone, the rest follows.

In my opinion it is not appropriate material for this discussion as it is questionable at best and inflammatory at least. I do not want to see this thread go the same way as the others of the same topic have in the recent past.

Seems that there is some phobia about differing opinions stated fully. So I shall be brief. In Canada and Sweden laws are in place making it criminal to use one's freedom of speech and religion to speak alternate opinions about homosexuality.
Who is intolerant here? Are not the ones limiting the speech less tolerant than those who are just using speech to duscuss the actions?

I stand by my decision.

If you wish you can take it up with Saruman.

Well, you can barely go to the bathroom without it being a sin according to christian beliefs, why would homosexuality be any different? Premarital sex, impure thoughts and masturbation are also sins.

Almost anything enjoyable is a sin. But there's a difference between something that's a "sin" (which most people don't care about anyway) and prejudice, intolerance and hatred.

Sorry, my intent was not to spam or flame. Just to state the opposing point of view in a referenced manner and also that intolerance goes both ways.

Lets please keep the bashing down to a bare minimum for all points of view please, I would like this thread to remain on topic and open as long as possible.

Thanks.

While that may be a bt of an exageration, the fact is that by Christian theology none of us are able to be the perfect, loving human beings God intended us to be.

But that is why Jesus died on the cross---To atone for our sins, so that they would no longer keep us from God's grace.

And yes, their is a difference between sin and things like intolerance, prejudice, and hatred. While I may believe that homosexuality is a sin (for which I make a theological assessment), I still try to always show the same love for them that I show for other people.

I went over most of the posts and so heres my two cents (or a buck and a half..lol)
First off, possibly finding some sort of genetic reasoning for people being born gay has been the sort of yin/yang controversy among gays and non gays alike. On the one had finding a gene, or finding a medical reason for being gay is an affirmation that its not a chosen lifestyle that its predestined either by conditions in the womb or by some gene as yet unknown.
For the people who are religious and say you chose this sinful lifestyle (among those religious folk who feel that way) this is a contradiction. They aren't likely to change thier mind..why? Well if evolution is still a debated topic amongst some religious folk, then being gay from birth or not isn't really something they are apt to listen to.
The other side of the coin is that if a cause or genetic reason for being gay is truly found, then prospective parents can choose whether or not thier kid is gay. ala Gattica, and we all know the moral and social debates that that brings up.
As for us all being born with original sin, well my idea (not just mine but one I hold to) is that Christianity used to include reincarnation and for many reasons etc it was removed but that little hitch of being born with sin was left in. In a cycle of rebirth and death, Karma, was translated to sin, and so according to that faith, we all come in tainted. (of course we all come in with karmic baggage, but thats different..lol)
When it comes to an evolutionary reason for some reoccuring need for people who don't reproduce but are part of your group, usually single, and able bodied, its one more person to grow food, and yes a mouth to feed, but can contribute more than a mother with child. That makes sense to me in a cave man sense and of course we have been cavemen far longer than modern humans.
So to sum up, gays are here for a reason, whatever that reason is, I really don't think god cares, just a group of folk who wrote the bible didn't like the actions of certain pagans and made sure to call them bad. But that was 2000+ years ago, and its old to hate gays...lol really really old...
but this is just my opinion...;o)

Does anyone, anywhere want to get back on topic??? Homosexuality is something we face in everyday life, believe me, I know. I would like to get back to the scientific theory that started this thread.....but that's just me..
I find it interesting.