As a pilot with only 500 hours under my belt, in light air craft I would have to agree that the easy part of flying is when you are in the air. In fact, taking off is pretty easy compared to landing for landing is the most difficult part. Although my aircraft experience is limited, I did fly a b-17 WWII flying fortress. Not quite the same as the Beach Jet I flew as the b-17 is a multi-engine prop plane. The beach, however was a jet and I had no trouble controlling the attitude, altitude or airspeed while in flight. An airplane is an airplane and once you know the basic fundamental physiscs of flight, almost any plane can be flown by an amateur. Especially if the pilot in command has no regard for human life and needs only to strike a large target like a building and not land safely on a runway.

*************************************
imo the company that actually certified the steel for wtc is probably a slighly better source for information concerning the integrity of the wtc steel --unfortunately the author in question was fired for his revelation as V mentioned-a crucial note at this point is that his publication of technical data has not been challenged or discredited in any way-here is his letter
http://www.septembereleventh.org/newsarchi...-11-11-ryan.php

********************
The collapse of the WTC

by Kevin Ryan
Underwriters Laboratories
Thursday, Nov 11, 2004

The following letter was sent today by Kevin Ryan of Underwriters Laboratories to Frank Gayle of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). Underwriters Laboratories is the company that certified the steel componets used in the constuction of the World Trade Center towers. The information in this letter is of great importance.

Dr. Gayle,

Having recently reviewed your team's report of 10/19/04, I felt the need to contact you directly.

As I'm sure you know, the company I work for certified the steel components used in the construction of the WTC buildings. In requesting information from both our CEO and Fire Protection business manager last year, I learned that they did not agree on the essential aspects of the story, except for one thing - that the samples we certified met all requirements. They suggested we all be patient and understand that UL was working with your team, and that tests would continue through this year. I'm aware of UL's attempts to help, including performing tests on models of the floor assemblies. But the results of these tests appear to indicate that the buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel.

There continues to be a number of "experts" making public claims about how the WTC buildings fell. One such person, Dr. Hyman Brown from the WTC construction crew, claims that the buildings collapsed due to fires at 2000F melting the steel (1). He states "What caused the building to collapse is the airplane fuel…burning at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The steel in that five-floor area melts." Additionally, the newspaper that quotes him says "Just-released preliminary findings from a National Institute of Standards and Technology study of the World Trade Center collapse support Brown’s theory."

We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications. Additionally, I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F (2). Why Dr. Brown would imply that 2000F would melt the high-grade steel used in those buildings makes no sense at all.

The results of your recently published metallurgical tests seem to clear things up (3), and support your team's August 2003 update as detailed by the Associated Press (4), in which you were ready to "rule out weak steel as a contributing factor in the collapse." The evaluation of paint deformation and spheroidization seem very straightforward, and you noted that the samples available were adequate for the investigation. Your comments suggest that the steel was probably exposed to temperatures of only about 500F (250C), which is what one might expect from a thermodynamic analysis of the situation.

However the summary of the new NIST report seems to ignore your findings, as it suggests that these low temperatures caused exposed bits of the building’s steel core to "soften and buckle." (5) Additionally this summary states that the perimeter columns softened, yet your findings make clear that "most perimeter panels (157 of 160) saw no temperature above 250C." To soften steel for the purposes of forging, normally temperatures need to be above1100C (6). However, this new summary report suggests that much lower temperatures were be able to not only soften the steel in a matter of minutes, but lead to rapid structural collapse.

This story just does not add up. If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers. That fact should be of great concern to all Americans. Alternatively, the contention that this steel did fail at temperatures around 250C suggests that the majority of deaths on 9/11 were due to a safety-related failure. That suggestion should be of great concern to my company.

There is no question that the events of 9/11 are the emotional driving force behind the War on Terror. And the issue of the WTC collapse is at the crux of the story of 9/11. My feeling is that your metallurgical tests are at the crux of the crux of the crux. Either you can make sense of what really happened to those buildings, and communicate this quickly, or we all face the same destruction and despair that come from global decisions based on disinformation and “chatter”.

Thanks for your efforts to determine what happened on that day. You may know that there are a number of other current and former government employees that have risked a great deal to help us to know the truth. I've copied one of these people on this message as a sign of respect and support. I believe your work could also be a nucleus of fact around which the truth, and thereby global peace and justice, can grow again. Please do what you can to quickly eliminate the confusion regarding the ability of jet fuel fires to soften or melt structural steel.

1. http://www.boulderweekly.com/archive/102104/coverstory.html 2. CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 61st edition, pg D-187 3. http://wtc.nist.gov/media/P3MechanicalandM...ysisofSteel.pdf 4. http://www.voicesofsept11.org/archive/911ic/082703.php 5. http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NCSTACWTCStatusFINAL101904WEB2.pdf (pg 11) 6. http://www.forging.org/FIERF/pdf/ffaaMacSleyne.pdf

Kevin Ryan

Site Manager Environmental Health Laboratories A Division of Underwriters Laboratories

Hi ....yea the new guy i've been reading all ur postings anyway...For that little entry and exit whole in the pentagon how could that have been a plane engine? i thought plane engines where the turbines on wings? so how did one fly off and do that and the other just dissappear...and also the so called wrecked or debrie from the BLOWN UP plane is mighty colorul to have just gone through a explosion if u ask me something doesn't smell right..

Duece: Nice one.
I had intended to mention something about the 'engine' making that little exit hole but got delayed in another thread.
One has to picture the event in slow motion really...I mean, can you imagine the actual physics of the thing? The jet: fuselage, wings and all the other bulk just squeezing into the small hole on impact. It's not like the hole was there to begin with either.
It does seem obvious that some people who advocate the official version of events really like to brush away a lot of those fine (nagging) details and just go straight for the hardcore basics.
You are right...Something does 'stink' about this whole 911 tragedy.

Vimjams

hmm...I guess I'm just very ignorant and don't understand what you are trying to say about this *something* that hit the pentagon and how it could be something OTHER than a passenger liner....can you please walk me through this theory you are advocating with the 'small hole' in the side of the Pentagon and what-not? Apparently I'm stupid and the rest of us are stupid so we really need a 'walk through' on this.........

No art...The 'something' I am referring to just means that 'something' stinks about the official version of 911...Figure of speech where I am from. I'm not saying here 'something' other than a jet liner hit the Pentagon...But hey...I'm stupid too and I question the validity of the official story that does say a 757 jet liner struck the Pentagon and squeezed itself through that little hole it was supposed to have created.


Not a very nice thing to say about people Art...I'd be getting told off if I had wrote that.

Vimjams

I'm admitting ignorance here and the need of you to educate me....other people here seem to need the the same 'education' so to speak......so how would you be "told off" for that?....

Why are you seeking ‘education’ and what are you seeking to be ‘educated’ in? Surely not anything to do with 911 conspiracies (?) There is plenty of information available here and elsewhere to ponder over. But you already know this Art Vandelay
Me thinks there is possible sarcasm lurking here…hence my own sarcastic comment about getting ‘told off’

Vimjams

You never answered my ?

Why would the mods label you as a target?

I did Art...


You are too busy trying to think up ways of 'flaming' that you overlook the details.

Vimjams

i would just like to remind everyone nothing was/has been,debunked or commented upon here-from the
* flashes caught on video and elaborated upon by dave von kleist to
*the book from the oklahoma gov's brother which predicted the attack on the murrah to the
*deck of cards released in 95' titled "iluminatti-new world oder" which pictorially predicts the attacks on 9/11 including the end result and the smoke shaped like a "skull"?!to the
*picture sequence from thw wtc showing a ball of fire before the building collapses to
* firemen stating in disbelief "it was if it had detonaters in it used to bring down a building BOOM,BOOM,BOOM,BOOM,BOOM,BOOM,BOOM,BOOM"(<direct quote)
NYFD
*heres one more-in 1993 the fbi was exposed by an egyptian intelligence informant emad salem,whom they payed 1 million dollars to,in recordings secretly taped by him with fbi agent John Anticev the fbi admitted to knowing the date in advance and supplying the detonators to helping to cook the bomb as well as failing to stop the bombing,as they said they would do,by substituting the explosive with a harmless powder-this is an undisputable fact-heres the article as well as additional info

T H E N E W Y O R K T I M E S

Thursday October 28, 1993 Page A1

"Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart
Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast"

By Ralph Blumenthal

Law-enforcement officials were told that terrorists were building
a bomb that was eventually used to blow up the World Trade Center,
and they planned to thwart the plotters by secretly substituting
harmless powder for the explosives, an informer said after
the blast.

The informer was to have helped the plotters build the bomb
and supply the fake powder, but the plan was called off by
an F.B.I. supervisor who had other ideas about how the informer,
Emad Salem, should be used, the informer said.

The account, which is given in the transcript of hundreds of
hours of tape recordings that Mr. Salem secretly made of his
talks with law-enforcement agents, portrays the authorities as
being in a far better position than previously known to foil
the February 26th bombing of New York City's tallest towers.

The explosion left six people dead, more than a thousand people
injured, and damages in excess of half-a-billion dollars.
Four men are now on trial in Manhattan Federal Court
[on charges of involvement] in that attack.

Mr. Salem, a 43-year-old former Egyptian Army officer, was used
by the Government [of the United States] to penetrate a circle
of Muslim extremists who are now charged in two bombing cases:
the World Trade Center attack, and a foiled plot to destroy
the United Nations, the Hudson River tunnels, and other
New York City landmarks. He is the crucial witness in the
second bombing case, but his work for the Government was
erratic, and for months before the World Trade Center blast,
he was feuding with th F.B.I.

Supervisor `Messed It Up'

After the bombing, he resumed his undercover work. In an
undated transcript of a conversation from that period,
Mr. Salem recounts a talk he had had earlier with an agent
about an unnamed F.B.I. supervisor who, he said,

"came and messed it up."
"He requested to meet me in the hotel,"

Mr. Salem says of the supervisor.

"He requested to make me to testify, and if he didn't
push for that, we'll be going building the bomb with
a phony powder, and grabbing the people who was
involved in it. But since you, we didn't do that."

The transcript quotes Mr. Salem as saying that he wanted to
complain to F.B.I. Headquarters in Washington about the
Bureau's failure to stop the bombing, but was dissuaded by
an agent identified as John Anticev.


Mr. Salem said Mr. Anticev had told him,

"He said, I don't think that the New York people would
like the things out of the New York Office to go to
Washington, D.C."

Another agent, identified as Nancy Floyd, does not dispute
Mr. Salem's account, but rather, appears to agree with it,
saying of the `New York people':

"Well, of course not, because they don't want to
get their butts chewed."
http://prisonplanet.com/the_world_trade_towers_bombing.html
******************************************************
The first World Trade Center bombing

On February 26, 1993, a 1,200-pound bomb in a van exploded in the parking garage beneath the World Trade Center. This was the most destructive terrorist attack carried out on U.S. soil up to that time, killing six people, injuring more than a thousand, and causing half a billion dollars in damage. If the van had been parked a few feet closer to one of the pillars, it could have collapsed an entire tower of the Trade Center, killing tens of thousands.

The case was quickly cracked when Mohammad Salameh, one of the bombers, repeatedly went to the Ryder rental office in Jersey City and demanded that Ryder refund his $400 deposit for the van, which he claimed had been stolen. Law-enforcement agents had already determined from fragments at the World Trade Center that the van was the bomb delivery device. After Salameh was arrested, the FBI quickly snared other plotters. Time noted that the FBI “looked supremely capable in speedily rounding up suspects in the World Trade Center bombing.” Assistant U.S. Attorney Andrew McCarthy later bragged to a New York jury that the first World Trade Center attack was one of the FBI’s finest hours: “To the rest of the world out there, the explosion in all its tragedy was actually a high-water mark for the FBI.”

Shortly after the bombing, the New York Times reported that FBI agents had been monitoring two mosques in the New York City area, as well as Sheik Omar Abdul Rahman, though

federal guidelines had limited their ability to tail them or conduct other close surveillance. Nothing suggesting the purchase of explosives or the assembling of a bomb was detected, the officials said. Even close surveillance might not have picked up a surreptitious act, they said.

A few months after the attack, FBI director William Sessions declared,

Based on what was known to us at the time, we have no reason to believe we could have prevented the bombing of the World Trade Center.

The FBI initially appeared to have a strong case, buttressed largely by evidence provided by informant Emad Salem. In July 1993, the media learned that Salem had been inside the conspiracy a year before the attack.

Secret tape recordings

After the bombing, the FBI quickly rehired Salem and promised to pay him a million dollars to develop evidence of additional terrorist plots. Because Salem did not trust the government to pay up, he secretly recorded his conversations with FBI agents. In August, as the case was heading for trial, news leaked that Salem had made tapes of more than a hundred hours of his conversations with FBI agents and handlers. The tape transcripts were not helpful to the prosecution.

In a call to an FBI agent shortly after the bombing, Salem complained,

We was start already building the bomb, which is went off in the World Trade Center. It was built, uh, uh, uh, supervising, supervision from the Bureau [FBI] and the DA [district attorney] and we was all informed about it. And we know that the bomb start to be built. By who? By your confidential informant. What a wonderful great case. And then he [the FBI supervisor] put his head in the sand and said, oh no, no, no that’s not true, he is a son of a b****, okay.

After the bombing, Salem anguished to one FBI agent, “You were informed. Everything is ready. The day and the time. Boom. Lock them up and that’s that. That’s why I feel so bad.” On another tape, Salem asked an FBI agent, “Do you deny your supervisor is the main reason of bombing the World Trade Center?” The agent did not deny Salem’s charge. Shortly after the bombing FBI agent Nancy Floyd confided to Salem that her supervisors had botched the case:

I felt that the people on the squad, that they didn’t have a clue of how to operate things. That the supervisors didn’t know what was going on. That they hadn’t taken the time to learn the history.

It was never clear to what extent Salem instigated the bombing, as opposed to simply reporting on the plot to his FBI controllers.

Before the bombing, he offered to do a switcheroo on the bombers, substituting a harmless powder for the deadly explosives and thereby preventing any potential catastrophe. The FBI spurned his offer. The New York Times October 28, 1993, article with this revelation was headlined, “Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast.” Salem complained to one FBI agent that an FBI supervisor “requested to make me to testify [in public] and if he didn’t push for that, we’ll be going building the bomb with a phony powder and grabbing the people who was involved in it. But … we didn’t do that.”

The FBI was also embarrassed by the contents of the 47 boxes it had seized from Nosair and left in storage for more than two years. The boxes were ignored in part because no one at the New York FBI office spoke or read Arabic. One note discovered in the boxes declared, “We had to thoroughly demoralize the enemies of God. This is to be done by means of destroying and blowing up the towers that constitute the pillars of their civilization, such as the tourist attractions they’re so proud of and the high buildings they’re so proud of.” One law enforcement official told the Los Angeles Times in 1993 that the material “described major conspiracies and provided a road map to the bombing of the World Trade Center and the subsequent plot.”

The FBI received far more credit for solving the first World Trade Center bombing than it received blame for the fact that its informant may have helped cause the bombing. In the wake of the FBI’s debacle, there were no oversight hearings or investigations by Congress to find out where the feds went wrong. Instead, the FBI was riding high on the laurels of its new director, Louis Freeh, and was still collecting praise on Capitol Hill for its decisive solution to the Branch Davidian problem at Waco.

Despite the fact that Muslim terrorists came within a few feet of killing thousands of Americans, federal agencies subsequently failed to take seriously the risk of more such attacks. The 2002 congressional report into pre-9/11 failures observed,

The first attack on the World Trade Center was an unambiguous indication that a new form of terrorism — motivated by religious fanaticism and seeking mass casualties — was emerging and focused on America.... However, the strategic implications of this shift in lethality do not appear to have been fully recognized.

Because the FBI was not held responsible for its failures in the first World Trade Center bombing, the agency’s incompetence actually mushroomed in the following years. As a result, the Bureau was inept at analyzing and pursuing terrorist threats at home. But at least the FBI got plenty of budget increases and new agents in the years between the first and second World Trade Center bombings.

James Bovard is author of the forthcoming The Bush Betrayal as well as Lost Rights (1994) and Terrorism and Tyranny: Trampling Freedom, Justice and Peace to Rid the World of Evil
http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0408c.asp

wow....that seems a bit accusatory to me......I'm on your side Vims......I don't know why you're attacking me........

Art: I wrote that during the ‘pre apology’ days and in relation to another avenue of (now closed) discussion…It has no bearing on our present cordial understanding and should just be ignored.

Vimjams

Ah Ok........just making sure........

When an 80 ton aircraft begins to slam into the exterior of a building and then makes its way towards the interior, this will cause friction. Friction being when one object acts on a nother to slow it down in this case ie. the building slowing down the plane. Now, when this sort of friction occurs, it causes a tremendous amount of heat, and heat can be known to produce such *flashes* as seen in the video. This remains the only logical explanation, not what von kleist claims it to be. No object was shot from the wing root of the plane before it hit the WTC, if this were a possible occurence we would see the object hit the building, causing debris to fly about. Instead what we see is the flash originate from the point of contact where the plane and the wall of the building meet on the under side of the plane a few feet from the nose.

on the movie, Plane Sight, they were talking about the spark in the front of the plane...."see the spark go off as it enters the building?" lol duh it hit the building...that's gonna cause a spark...but if the spark was really something important...what would it have meant?

now i'm not saying that it could not have been set up...although for one could someone explain how this attack could further the us government and why would they have reason to set it up?

i dont know which video you saw but in the one i saw dave even clarifies the moment of the flash as being before contact takes place-its clear as day when dave slows it down and shows that the flash occured "before" the plane touches the building and uses the shadow as a reference-also i forgot to mention the republicans own documents-the "pnac" papers dated aug,00' stating that their plans for the "new american century" would be a slow and uphill march unless an event similar to "pearl harbor" would occur--how fantastically convienent for them that something did occur huh?

break the spell of their trauma based hypnosis and admit what you are looking at-the truth will set you free-start waking others up to the truth-the faster and farther the message gets out the better we all will be-i cant remember who said it but the saying goes--"once a person has witnessed the truth-the act of non-action is akin to being an accessory"

Summary of thread:


Yes it did.
No it didn't.
Yes it did.
No it didn't.
Yes it did.
No it didn't.
Yes it did.
No it didn't.
Yes it did.
No it didn't.
Yes it did.
No it didn't.
Yes it did.
No it didn't.
Yes it did.
No it didn't.
Yes it did.
No it didn't.
Yes it did.
No it didn't.


Yes it was.
No it wasn't.
Yes it was.
No it wasn't.
Yes it was.
No it wasn't.
Yes it was.
No it wasn't.
Yes it was.
No it wasn't.
Yes it was.
No it wasn't.
Yes it was.
No it wasn't.
Yes it was.
No it wasn't.
Yes it was.
No it wasn't.


Geeeez it doesn't even matter anymore. They have rebuilt the damn thing!
And the terrorists are dying like cockroaches in the Raid factory......get over it!

read the "pnac"...
...-also i forgot to mention the republicans own documents-the "pnac" papers dated aug,00' stating that their plans for the "new american century" would be a slow and uphill march unless an event similar to "pearl harbor" would occur--how fantastically convienent for them that something did occur huh?

break the spell of their trauma based hypnosis and admit what you are looking at-the truth will set you free-start waking others up to the truth-the faster and farther the message gets out the better we all will be-i cant remember who said it but the saying goes--"once a person has witnessed the truth-the act of non-action is akin to being an accessory"

doesnt matter anymore? i guess life and liberty are not high on your list of things to uphold-your right people are dying in the "raid factory" but its not the terrorists!your lack of respect for the deceased disgusts me and your response is a true reflection of your intellect---

Dude....get your Valium script refilled first thing tomorrow....k?

put the prozac down and let the little boy go-lol

no really put it down-



more fire from the frontline in the infowar-theres a battle going for your mind-infowar.com


Close-Up of WTC-7 Collapse Footage Shows Unmistakable Demolition Charges
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/novem...ablecharges.htm
The above clip is taken from this longer video of the WTC-7 collapse, which itself is a small segment of the Naudet brothers' documentary "9/11".

Looking at the upper right-hand corner of the building we see a rapid series of small explosions travelling upward just as the building itself begins to fall. The size, placement and timing of these "puffs" is very consistent with squibs from cutting charges of the type used in professional controlled demolitions, and in fact nothing but small explosive charges could create such an appearance.

The decreasing volume of the building from the collapse itself could not create enough pressure to cause such localized high-velocity effects, and this early in the collapse would have only created a modest overpressure...
*************************************************
First-hand Accounts of Underground Explosions In The North Tower

This article from Chief Engineer magazine presents eyewitness account of the moments after the first plane crash, and describes evidence of large explosions in the lobby, parking garage and subbasement levels of WTC-1 at the time of the crash

It contains some fascinating first-hand accounts of the events of September 11 as recounted by operating engineers on the scene. One of the most remarkable is the story of Mike Pecoraro, who was working in the 6th sub-basement of the North Tower when the first plane hit. Here are some excerpts:
At about 6:45 he went to the mechanical shop in the second subbasement, ate his breakfast and chatted with his co-workers who were also arriving for the normal 8:00 a.m. beginning of their shift. Mike’s assignment that day would be to continue constructing a gantry that would be used to pull the heads from the 2,500 ton chillers, located in the 6th sub- basement level of the tower. 49,000 tons of refrigeration equipment were located in the lower level of the tower. The 2,500 ton units were the smallest in use...


Deep below the tower, Mike Pecoraro was suddenly interrupted in his grinding task by a shake on his shoulder from his co-worker. “Did you see that?” he was asked. Mike told him that he had seen nothing. “You didn’t see the lights flicker?”, his co-worker asked again. “No,” Mike responded, but he knew immediately that if the lights had flickered, it could spell trouble. A power surge or interruption could play havoc with the building’s equipment. If all the pumps trip out or pulse meters trip, it could make for a very long day bringing the entire center’s equipment back on-line.

Mike told his co-worker to call upstairs to their Assistant Chief Engineer and find out if everything was all right. His co-worker made the call and reported back to Mike that he was told that the Assistant Chief did not know what happened but that the whole building seemed to shake and there was a loud explosion. They had been told to stay where they were and “sit tight” until the Assistant Chief got back to them. By this time, however, the room they were working in began to fill with a white smoke. “We smelled kerosene,” Mike recalled, “I was thinking maybe a car fire was upstairs”, referring to the parking garage located below grade in the tower but above the deep space where they were working.

The two decided to ascend the stairs to the C level, to a small machine shop where Vito Deleo and David Williams were supposed to be working. When the two arrived at the C level, they found the machine shop gone.

“There was nothing there but rubble, “Mike said. “We’re talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press – gone!” The two began yelling for their co-workers, but there was no answer. They saw a perfect line of smoke streaming through the air. “You could stand here,” he said, “and two inches over you couldn’t breathe. We couldn’t see through the smoke so we started screaming.” But there was still no answer.

The two made their way to the parking garage, but found that it, too, was gone. “There were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can’t see anything” he said.

They decided to ascend two more levels to the building’s lobby. As they ascended to the B Level, one floor above, they were astonished to see a steel and concrete fire door that weighed about 300 pounds, wrinkled up “like a piece of aluminum foil” and lying on the floor. “They got us again,” Mike told his co-worker, referring to the terrorist attack at the center in 1993. Having been through that bombing, Mike recalled seeing similar things happen to the building’s structure. He was convinced a bomb had gone off in the building.

Consider the implications of what Mr. Pecoraro describes: At this point the only overt damage to the building was the plane crash some 95 floors above, which could not have caused violent explosions underground. Since the towers were anchored at the base to the bedrock the shaking caused by the crash would have been greatest close to the crash site, getting progressively weaker as it approached the rigid attachment at the bottom. Yet the underground damage he describes can not have been the result of a mere shaking - nothing short of an explosion could reduce the contents of a machine shop to rubble.



Damage to the North Tower Lobby

The damage to the parking garage and lobby simultaneous with the first plane impact are also indicative of the effects of high explosives, with widespread blast damage and fine dust covering the entire scene. Below is a link to a video clip of the WTC-1 lobby area just after the first plane crash, as seen in the documentary "9/11" made by Jules and Gedeon Naudet:

The narrator claims that he "later learned" that there had been an explosion caused by fuel pouring down an elevator shaft, but the lobby shows none of the soot or fuel residue we would expect from such an explosion. Instead we see blown-out windows and a fine dry dust covering the entire lobby, very much the signature of high explosives. Similar damage to the parking garages and subbasements can only be explained by pre-placed explosive charges that were detonated at the moment of the plane's impact.

Another account of underground blasts
Construction worker Phillip Morelli describes being thrown to the ground by two explosions while in the fourth subbasement of the North Tower. The first, which threw him to the ground and seemed to coincide with the plane crash, was followed by a larger blast that again threw him to the ground and this time blew out walls. He then made his way to the South Tower and was in the subbasement there when the second plane hit, again associated with a powerful underground blast. This is one of a series of interviews with WTC survivors done by NY1 News: http://ny1.com/pages/RRR/911special_survivors.html
http://st12.startlogic.com/~xenonpup/under..._explosions.htm

I find your articles extremely interesting and informative Sunofone.


What kind of response is that? It doesn't surprise and never ceases to amaze me that when confronted with something tangible to argue against people like Joc always resort to there instinctive and base nature...Did you giggle to yourself after writing that Joc?
Come on...Sunofone has looked very closely into this subject and I agree with the implications. What he illustrates in his posts paints a very different picture compared to that which some of you are so ignorantly defending.
Joc...What matters to you or not...is of no interest to me, it's easy when you know how. Go back to reading the backs of cereal boxes.

Nice one Sun

Vimjams

thanks V you are my sole purpose for posting here so long-when i get negative or no responses i usually move on--thanks for your support!

I Have came up with a theory(so to speak) as why the government would do such a thing to its own people so bear with me.....To be a hero something has to happen to make you a hero(hero's aren't born there made..except superman). In saying that President bush won the first election barely which upset about half the country (no need to go into, why we all know) In which case i was and still am one of the people that doesn't like him i bet its a couple thousand more that fell the same.. Anyway after he staged 9/11 who came out looking like a hero? Our fearless leader who is going to get the bastards that did this to our country...Our leader who united America again.... And all he has to do is kill a few 100 thousand people and he has gained the support of those people he never had on his side....and there are those who fell for this little shanagain... and all he had to do is knock down two buildings and punch a hole in another...It kinda makes sense it makes sense to me anyway... (Bush aka Blow that country of the map and do what daddy says man to save the day! )

Tha Duece: You speak the thoughts of many. Regardless of the motives behind others involved, your ideas certainly paint a very good portrait of the Bush I see.

Vimjams

The sad thing is he's so deluded(or just stupid) he probably feels like a hero too,and not a man who has sacrificed thousands of innocent people in an unjust war.The war against terror is being orchastrated by the biggest terrorist of them all,G.W.B,and he seems to be loving every minute of it.

The truth about 911 is not being told,its obvious.Not sure if Bush planned it but maybe just turned a blind eye before hand.

Oh yes, a definite blind eye was turned for sure....by the Clinton administration...

giggle, giggle

www.infowars.com people. Alex Jones provides easily confirmable information as to the staging of Sept 11th.

You know, there was an incedent about a decade ago where a famous golfer's aitplane went off cource. In 18 minutes, multiple squadrons of F18's and F16s were intercepting it. All flights are monitored. Every single one. And the second a flight goes off course it is contacted. If there is no response, fighter jets are scrambled. This is to prevent the very thing that happened on sept 11th. But no, no fighter jets were scrambled, even though the flight was off cource for HOURS! Not a mere 18 minutes.

Go to inforwars.com

Enlighten yourself, and be enraged at what the government has done.

Not to mention after the attacks NORAD etc, was ordered to stand down after they were told it was a Exorsise

~Thanato

The military had a missile pointed at Bin Laden's mouth while Clinton had his missile in Lewinski's mouth.

Snopes and a legion of other sites, news stations, philosophers, and normal people looking into it think that the conspiracy theory is totally wrong, that it's been played like it is.

I will say this yet again, becasue it has truth:

www.infowars.com

Look up "masters of Terror". If you don't wanna buy it (it didn't)

download it from Kazaa or BitTorrent. Or I could even send it to you.

It will open your eyes.

[quote=Insight,Dec 1 2004, 05:47 PM]
www.infowars.com people. Alex Jones provides easily confirmable information as to the staging of Sept 11th.[/quote]

Yes, if you are an 8 year old child or a mentaly retarded adult you could be persuaded.

[quote]
You know, there was an incedent about a decade ago where a famous golfer's aitplane went off cource. In 18 minutes, multiple squadrons of F18's and F16s were intercepting it.[/quote]

Any name other than a famous golfer? Multiple squadrons of F-18's and F-16's, hmmm sounds very fabricated. Only two F-16's or F-18's would be needed. What was the proximity of where they took off to where the plane was? How fast did it take communications to reach NORAD via the flight dispatcher to his superior and then other proper authorities? Any links? 18 minutes of what, from the time he deviated from course or to when the planes were taking off to when they reached this apparent plane?

[quote]
All flights are monitored. Every single one. And the second a flight goes off course it is contacted. If there is no response, fighter jets are scrambled. This is to prevent the very thing that happened on sept 11th. But no, no fighter jets were scrambled, even though the flight was off cource for HOURS! Not a mere 18 minutes. [/quoted]

What? Hours? There was a matter of 32 minutes, from 8:14 to 8:46 when the first plane was suspected of being hijacked to when it slammed into the first of the WTC that were hit? Yes, every flight is monitored, so how many flights is that, espicially at an airport like the one in Boston or at Dulles? Consider the main purpose for a dispatcher is to guide planes in for landing and safely allow them to take off and then approach their flight path. How many other planes do you think went off course that day? You need to read the 9/11 Commision Final Report. Here, I give you link: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/

[quote]
Go to inforwars.com

Enlighten yourself, and be enraged at what the government has done.
[right][snapback]380836[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Oh yeah, Alex Jones gets mad over the fact that Kerry and Bush were part of the same frat that initiated each other by pattling new members and forcing them to lie in coffins all while ass naked.

Frosty, you didn't even read what's on the site, did you. Try reading indtead of just looking at the banners. Besides, like I said, you have to download "masters of terror" to even know hat I am talking about. Anything you say outside of watching that video in full is completely unapplicable to the situation. Watch it, THEN bring me facts about WHY it is not true. Don't just spout of opinions about something you haven't even seen.

NORAD was guiding IN the aircraft to the buildings.

The government was conducting simulations of planes being crashed into buildings before sept 11th. That's confirmed, and the government said it was a bizzare coincidence. The US gave money to the Taliban and to al-queda. This is confirmed.

Here is the direct information (not from my memory) in regardsa to the golfer.

1999, PaneStewart's jet got off course and was surrounded by F-16 air craft. Apperantly the cabin became depressurized, killing everyone. It took 21 minutes for the intercept, without the need of presidential mandate. This represents willful, coordinated negelence between NORAD, the FAA, and the pentagon.

two years later, on sept 11th, they had 70 plus minutes. And nothing happened.


Simultaneously, within 2 minutes of each other, 4 different jets in the same area of the country TURNED OFF THEIR TRANSPONDERS. That is an emergency at ANY time when even a single jet does that. Four jets do it, and nothing is done. At least, that's what the FAA and NORAD claim. The FBI for some reason has confiscated the control tower tapes. Why?

Why was NORAD and the FAA ordered to stand down? That information comes from top level military officers. Find the papers yourself. I've seen them.

Andrews Air Force base is only 10 minutes from the pentagon. The DC international guard is also based there and equipped with F16 aircraft. In a blatant reversal of standard operating procedure, the air force, via willful negalgence, is given stand down orders not to intercept flight 77, which will subsequantly hit the pentagon. People, this is ALL reported in mainstream news!!!!!!!!! Not on CNN mind you, but look it up of the internet! I beg you! It's there for us all to see!!! But no one puts the pieces together.

Flight 77 is known by NORAD to be hijacked by 8:50 am. Yet it is still a full 48 minutes before any jet fighters are scrambled. 2 leave the airforce base just 2 minutes before 77 hits the pentagon at 9:40 am. It's standard aircraft procedure to intercept ALL aircraft who do not respond to radio calls immediately. This was the case with Stewarts chartered Leer Jet in october 99.


What? Hours? There was a matter of 32 minutes, from 8:14 to 8:46 when the first plane was suspected of being hijacked to when it slammed into the first of the WTC that were hit?

False. Look at the reports FOR YOURSELF. it was a minimum of 70 minutes. These reports are not classified. They are available to the public.

Yes, every flight is monitored, so how many flights is that, espicially at an airport like the one in Boston or at Dulles?

You don't understand how many checks there are in monitoring flights. It's not just a few guys in the control tower. Those guys merely direct traffic coming into and out of airports.

A single flight goes outside of it's designated course, and everybody knows, and then follows procedure accordingly.

Multiple squadrons of F-18's and F-16's, hmmm sounds very fabricated.

My memory didn't serve me well on this one. CHeck out the facts above. And watch the damned video if you still don't believe me.

I know, it's terrible, unthinkable, that the government would do this, but everyone needs to wake up and smell the propoganda.

WATCH THE VIDEO from INFOWARS. Find the news articles for yourself! Search Press sites. It's all there!

Oh dear...Do we have to frosty? It just goes to show how desperate some of you are to avoid the reality of the world we live in.


Of course Frosty never read it Insight...People like that do not read opposing views.

Vimjams

I myself felt very VERY threatened by the information alex Jones provides. But after doing the reasearch for myself, I saw how true it all was. It's not hidden from the public eye persay, but it isn't made mainstream. It's all there. all of it. And it terrifies me.

Every emotion, stems from either fear or love. I think that the American public is terrified...


Remember to fight with a sword of love and a shield of light.
"The power of love will overcome the love of power". - unknown
No need to be terrified...Our troops are that for us. Imagine...

What happesn if your Troops turn on your public?

~Thanato

of course "our" troops would never turn on us thats why in all the homeland security documents it states that"foriegn assets" would be used in place of american soldiers-

I'm not sure where or if this fits into the discussion anywhere, but one of the points raised concerning the 'attack' on the Pentagon was to do with 'where was the debris'

I have found footage of a fighter jet hitting reinforced concrete. The test was conducted to see the effects of an aircraft attack on a nuclear power station but I imagine a similar scenario with a passenger plane hitting the Pentagon. Both aircraft are made of comparable materials and the Pentagon, or at least that part of the Pentagon is made of reinforced concrete.

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/458/

As you can see there is very little, if any, evidence of an aircraft after the impact, you can also see that very little damage is imparted on the reinforced concrete.

Draw your own conclusions from that, I know I will.

Wow,cheers snowball.
interesting

your right one of the points was "where was the debris?"--first to sperate the example from reality--the video you linked was not even close to the actual scenario-first off it is a jet,and in this aspect hepls to demonstrate the lie of the official story because one of the witnesses on the scene described a 8-12 passenger twin jet which is extremly similar to the fighter jet--second,the initial impact was on a wall only 36" wide with windows,many people try to add up all six walls and equate the impact to the sum-which is wrong-nor was it a bunker wall! which is what the example in the video was--the conclusions i draw from this post are,were and will remain "where was the debri?"

My reason for posting isn't to confirm what is right or wrong, on that I will make my own decisions. However, I hope that people are here to find the truth. As the X-files said 'The truth is out there', I believe it is, if there are enough people who are willing to seek the facts rather than believe what they are told eventually we'll find it, there are many people here that want to find the facts out for themselves, and that makes me quite hopeful. I'm just bringing what I have to the table, whether it is for or against your point of view is not my concern. Like any investigation we shouldn't come to it with any prejudice, the evidence is important, whether that fits in with our beliefs is irrelevent.

i beleive hate is also one of the root emotions for humans...

What? Since when did twin engine passenger jets become to look like jet fighters? Extremely similar?

A dangerous thinker Thanato. I like yoiur style. You know about NORAD being ordered to stand down. You realize the threat of out troops being pitted against us. We should talk more on this subject. See me around the forums or email me at

brokenjohnnynofix@hotmail.com



Homeland security has been redefined since 911.


Edit-USE THE EDIT BUTTON! there is no need to double post
-UA

in size,dimension and conformation the fighter is closer in description to the twin engine than a boeing 757-

I'd like to throw in here one quote which i used to have on my signature:

There is a reason why we have a police force, and a military. The military fight the enemies of the state, and the police protect the people. When the military become the police, the enemies of the state quickly become the people.

scary but true!

So, what are you saying? We all know it was a Boeing 757 witch hit the Pentagon, it's on video and accounted for by eye witnesses. Still, the two look nothing alike from only a few hundred yards out.