Was Plato one of the biggest hypocrite of the millenium?

I don't know, was he?

Could you please expand your question as to why he could be concidered a hypocrite in the first place?

Thanks

I really doubt it. He was either using an allegory or he was repeating a story passed down by an ancestor. Either way, he used it to establish his thoughts on the "perfect' society. I personally believe that at best Atlantist was Minoan Crete and at worse, just a story. I wish it was more than that, but until I see some real evidence that can't be explained in another way, Atlantis remains in the realm of myths and legends.

There are so many other things that we thought were fable and finally found to be true. So yes, I believe Alantis existed.

Plato wrote a book about his travels and Atlantis, etc....hypocrite? Good question, he existed like 11 thousand years ago. The same could be said about Jesus...there was a book, and followers, same as Plato, but his occurence was only 2 thousand years ago and we're still trying to figure him out. I think Plato happened upon a region that he was not aware of (I mean come on, it's 11 thousand years ago, people only knew about two continents at the time) and he mentioned it. I think it will be a while before we figure out what land it was and where it went though.

Before I could give you an opinion on this poll, I'd have to know exactly how you're defining "Atlantis".

Do you mean exactly what Plato described? Or do you mean more generally the idea of an advanced civilization that was destroyed?

Sorry to nitpick, but "Atlantis" is a bit of a vague term sometimes.

It is funny that there are so many scientists out there that claim they know where it is.

Sorry but i think u have a poor knowledge about Plato he did not exist 11 thousand years ago .he lived in the 5th century B.C.His description of atlantis was that it was 11 thousand years old.

Let's start at the end and work backwards.....

What is said to have happened to Atlantis?

It sunk ,,,

gomorrah means submersion ...

......

I am of the belief that the sodom and gomorrah fable speaks directly of the destruction of 'atlantis' by elohim via a nuclear attack ... "lightning from the sky' ...Lots wife being the victim of a nuclear blast, noah having to build a fallout shelter to weather this attack .... etc ...
Arks do not need to be closed in entirely to float on a rising water... Only sections needed to be roofed to keep living creatures from getting wet while it 'rained' ...
The fact it is said to have been closed entirely speaks volumes... Toss in birds to test the air quality and it kinda starts coming together...

Water and a nuke can have one thing in common .... Hydrogen ...


Plato spoke of 7 'states' or 'regions' maybe, I do not recall ,,, but I do know that today we have 7 continents on Earth ...Continental drift could very well have been caused by this attack. The oil deposits being in rings around the globe would also support the theory of nuclear destruction. The creation of those oil deposits to fuel a war economy could be just one of many reasons why Elohim Nuked it to begin with. I also believe Earthquakes as we know them today are aftershocks, caused by the Earths crust having been damaged(fault lines) ....

on the flip side,

Plato's word is all the real evidence plato offers ... It could be a figment of Plato's imagination ...

Every Myth and Legend has at its center a grain of truth. "Atlantis" most probably did exist... though not as we believe it today. most likely it was a civilization that was advanced for its time. but the fact that it had remarkable technology that we do not have in this day and age is highly improbable. chances are that it was simply a land in the mediterranean valley that was inundated when the sea wall that separated the Atlantic ocean and Mediterranean area collapsed causing an enormous amount of sea water to flood the valley. this would in itself create not only the destruction of said Civilization but the "Great Flood" described in religous texts as well.
In regards to "Atlantis Being placed in the atlantic ocean... well most people begin to draw their conclusions from the fact that Plato said that in lay beyond the pillars of Hercules. What few people know is that there were actually two pillars of Hercules. The first and most well known is the strait of Gibraltar... the other is on the Peloponnese (though I will truthfully admit that I cannot remember where its locale is). well thats my opinion on that matter

As Meis said, and said well i might add.

But i see it a little differently. In all Platos writings, he speaks in Symbols, in basic terms.
I believe Atlantis a mythical representation Plato used to describe Rome, which was infact at the time extremely technologically advanced. Also the destroying ocean he described could be interpreted as simply the downfall that befell the roman empire, like a flood washing it away.

Very good point Burnside

The Roman Empire?

You might want to check your dates. There wasn't much of an Empire during Plato's time. Couple hundred years too early.

Roman Empire from MSN Encarta
Roman Empire, political system established by Rome that lasted for nearly five centuries. Historians usually date the beginning of the Roman Empire from 27 bc when the Roman Senate gave Gaius Octavius the name Augustus and he became the undisputed emperor after years of bitter civil war.
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_174150...man_Empire.html

Plato from same source
Plato (428?-347 bc), Greek philosopher, one of the most creative and influential thinkers in Western philosophy.
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761568769/Plato.html

Burnside's commentary looks good to me...he's a pretty smart guy

Actually Mr. Vanderswet is right, and as your dates show, Plato died approx. 300 years before the Roman Empire. I quickly looked it up myself, but your source there Mel shows it too.

I thought that the Roman Empire started about 500 years before christ, my mistake.

Maybe Plato was speaking of things to come, as Nostrodaums (sp) whould speak in extremely vague symbols to describe his predictions.

Rome as a city was founded around 500 BC, but the "Empire" starts around 60 BC if you're including Gaius Julius as the first emperor. A little later if you use Octavian/Augustus.

Plato was probably talking about his fellow Athenians, warning them of excess and the seeking of power.

Too much talk about the place for it too be a fake imho

To much talk?
There is now, but at the time, how much talk was there before or even after Platos scriptures?

Another great theory Mr. Vanderzwet

More talk going around about the North Pole.

Ever wonder where the term "ATLANTIC" Ocean came from? Or Atlas Mountains, or Atzland? (Root words ATL). So many connective roots between The Egyptian Religion and the Mayan. The fact that remains of Cocoa were evident in ancient Egypt (ONLY place of origin is South America). Pyramids (even under the oceans) - newly discovered ruins off the NORTHWEST Corner of Cuba (in more than 2,000 feet of water). Giant pyramid found at Cay Sal Bank (South of Florida). Are we so arrogant that we assume we are at PEAK of civilization JUST BECAUSE of our technology? What about the connection between the Belt of Orion (Constellation) - and the ACTUAL ALIGNMENT of the Great Pyramid and the lesser two? IDENTICAL astrological alignment was ONLY made PRIOR to 11,000 years. Nor of the UNUSUAL OOP Arts (Out of Place Artifacts) WORLDWIDE ... can we actually duplicate the structure of the Great Pyramid today - without it falling to pieces in a hundred years?

Questioned also is the DATING procedures of relics, especially the Sphynx. Argument of the strange FLOOD MARKS along the side. Water striations that could ONLY DATE PRIOR to 11,000 years ago (before the EXTENSIVE Egyptian Drought period) - ALSO one of the target dates for the last MAJOR Cataclysm caused by the shifting of the Geomagnetic and resulting GEOLOGIC Poles. The same could be said with the actions CURRENT of Earth's Magnetic Field which is now on the verge of reversing (backed by NASA)..

There are FAR TOO MANY things resting on dusty museum shelves to dismiss the GRADUAL PROGRESSION of History. Something INTERRUPTED the flow of History and wiped out all but small traces of what INDEED WAS a remarkable Civilization that SPANNED THE GLOBE - and perished when the massive tidal waves hit it during a Pole Shift - which is about to happen again. Dig up the ruins of NYC in 10,000 years and what do you find?

In evidence of structure, ability to harvest HYBRID GRAINS - and the proverbial question of the Chicken or the EGG coming first (i.e ancient Sumeria - now Iraq) -- still remain unanswered so long as ORTHODOX SCIENCE and HISTORY REFUSE to budge from their cronyism and yield to the possibility that there are ALTERNATIVE FACTS yet to be debated. The evidence is all around us -- yet it is ignored because we were TOLD TO in school and college. Much likewise with Astronomy .. and we now know of the WRONGS of those Astronomy classes of the 50's and 60's!
By the way TROY (Illiad and Odyssey) was ALSO myth -- until the ruins were found. Let's be patient and see what current diggings yield before we take the debate to the heated level as some scientists would have it! To me -- ATLANTIS DID EXIST - because my mind and heart tells me there WAS something far earlier - something science REFUSES to explain or even admit without the usual sarcasm (and not an open mind). And because it REFUSES to explain I am curious as to the WHY. THAT is the fruit!!! The why! Perhaps I could now say: "WHY NOT!!"

From the Gryphon's Lair.

Put down the sh** books, please.

There is no connection between the Mayans and Egyptians, as much as you want there to be. Don't make a statement sound like a fact when you don't know the facts to begin with. There is nothing to the Orion constellation garbage either. There are topographical limitations at Giza and the Egyptians adhered to them.

Get out your building blocks, as it sounds like you didn't put them down too long ago. Build the largest and most stable monument you can out of your cubes. Its a pyramid, right? Kindergartens can do this, and so could the ancient peoples.

The flood idea is, again outdated. Old Kingdom tombs have identical erosion patterns.


The rest of your post is complete nonsense.

Read a book.

///
Sounds like another Scientist! Books I have read - and many of them (for many years), and not just AMERICAN standard college issue. As for Egypt and many other places -- I have been there - in person. Including the Anastazi ruins in the Southwest. But statements like the above ONLY PROVE that attacking an individual for his beliefs (or even IDEAS) - instead of defining their own disagreement in respective terms - shows the absolute proof of what I was talking about!
As far as building a building out of child's blocks ... OK ... so we had slaves carrying lunch pails (with King Tut engraved on them) - punching time clocks -- driving huge cranes --- OH YES they used rollers (simple child's understanding!) - building some SUPERSTRUCTURES that will last all into the next four thousand years!! Barring - of course - some Earthquake. ARE THERE ANY SUCH BUILDINGS TODAY?
My friend -- read I have -- and it sounds a lot like we made purchases from far different book stores.
I am complimented in your respose in that it told me NOTHING IN RETURN -- neither to disprove anything I said; nor to establish any reasonable ALTERNATIVE to the Clap Trap that falls into Orthodox thinking. Seems YOU don't believe in Atlantis either (which is perfectly agreeable) - nor did the local Native Americans believe that Columbus was NOT A GOD when he first arrived in America. All things relative.
One final word here -- TRY to get into the LOCKED Archives of the Smithsonian - British Museum - Cairo Museum - and just see if you are allowed to open those musty shelves.
MY OPINION was expressed - my OPINION. The facts are as they were presented in publications, newspapers, books, Scholar Writ, Doctorate Dissertations, and Archeological Field Expeditions. Use your OWN judgement as to how you may interpret them. I have my beliefs and STICK by them for my own personal reasons, AND my personal experiences in the field.

From the Gryphon's Lair

Good for you. My most recent trip to Egypt was as a member of an archaeological team excavating pre-dynastic burial sites and settlements in the Delta.

You were there with a "I *heart* Egypt" T-shirt and a camera. I was last there as an archaeologist. The time before that I was in Egypt to partcipate in the 8th International Congress of Egyptologists.

But that doesn't matter.



The Egyptians didn't use slaves.



No, they used sleds. And this is totally evidenced.



We're not building anything to last for eternity anymore.



Try university book stores.



You're confusing them with the Peruvians, and Columbus had nothing to do with it. He didn't land in America, dispite commonly held rumor.



Been there, a few times. I also work quite a bit in the basement of the Royal Ontario Museum - Canada's largest Egyptological collection.



Where have you worked?

[quote=Pete Vanderzwet,Nov 12 2004, 02:08 PM]
[quote]Sounds like another Scientist! Books I have read - and many of them (for many years), and not just AMERICAN standard college issue. As for Egypt and many other places -- I have been there - in person.[/quote]

Good for you. My most recent trip to Egypt was as a member of an archaeological team excavating pre-dynastic burial sites and settlements in the Delta.

You were there with a "I *heart* Egypt" T-shirt and a camera. I was last there as an archaeologist. The time before that I was in Egypt to partcipate in the 8th International Congress of Egyptologists.
///////////////////////////////////////

No -- I was NOT a tourist there (having stayed extensively in Alexandria and Cairo) -- I was an independent researcher with my own extensive travels (some of it with the A.R.E. "in" group); but your arrogance is well taken as your erudism explains. Much of what I have learned and researched was SHARED from others in the field. And note that my OPINIONS remain just that. But unlike most students of 'History' I am NOT one who cowers in my seat while the ERUDITE PROFESSOR brow beats me into acceptance. My opinions and reflections remain steadfast - REGARDLESS of how many times you seem to want to put me down for expressing my opinion - or my so-called lack of field experience.
Me? Career US Navy Cryptologist (now retired) -- Counter-Intelligence and Counter-Terrorism/Diplomatic Protocol, American Embassy - Nicosia Cyprus. (1968-1988) EXTENSIVELY in the Middle East (including Cairo, Gaza, Istanbul, Negev, Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Tiberius, and Damascus). My service record remains availed - and my clearance was levels above TS (Codeword) throughout, including detachments with NASA/NSA/DIA/State Department and ONI.
Once again I understand what a student feels like when his ideas (or even beliefs) contradict the "established norms". There are also things I am aware of that CANNOT be disclosed in public -- but that too will avail in time. And yes -- I DO plead ignorance to many other things - but such is life! However; I must say your insults (seem to) negate your OPEN ideas of education and only discourages those with "other" ideas counter to the established norms. I arrived at this site with an opinion (albeit a friendly one) -- NOT a debate about educational levels. If I am a "dumb" infant (as it appears you claim) playing with blocks - then that remains your opinion. But it does no better for my opinion of the very subject I touched upon.
Now you are going to say that there are NO Out Of Place Artifacts??
No ruins off Cuba (so what if it was Pre-Columbian -- HISTORY does NOT record it)
There is NO DISPUTE (on-going) about the age of the Sphynx?
There are no CYCLOPIAN blocks of solid stone in BaalBek, Lebenon?
Perhaps I suggest we just let this go .... as this IS the reason why debate remains unchallenged to this day. I have a deep respect for Archeology -- and the people who muster the dust pans and brushes -- but there are also other professions that overlap and provide a need - or need NOT to know.

I bow out of this place with my beliefs and opinions intact, my respect as well. And THAT is sincere.

From the Gryphon's Lair

"Atlantis" did exist.

Do I have proof? No.

But It did.

Did Gryphon just agree with me or insult me...

I believe at one point that it did, but that's just for the believer's sake. If you want to be logical I don't think it's possible for the long run, unless you have hard evidence. That would be really cool if it did, or does for that matter, but who knows....... lol

LOL... You just hit yourself hard with a controversy, you said that it was real and it wasn't at the same time, which side are you on?

I wholeheartedly know Atlantis existed, and whether anyone else believes me I had past life recall through regression. (and trust I was no princess, in fact I was sort of a lowly astronomer type spent too much time with my nose in a book but anway). What I find amazing is that there are clues everywhere that a much more advanced civilization(s) existed before and were destroyed either by thier own hands or by nature.
I am a big fan of Graham Hancock, and his works, although he doesn't like to call his idea of a civilization tying together many of the ancient pyramid builders Atlantians, he still has some great ideas.

www.grahamhancock.com he has an awesome forum on his website as well.

I can't imagine that humans have been around in thier modern form for as long as they have and we have only seen the last few thousand years as our only window to create a modern civilization. Looking at the Harrapans as the beginning is limiting, and unfortunately modern scientists dismiss any evidence of prehistoric modern cities or peoples as hogwash. I tend to have an open mind I just wish the scientific community would too.

Well, Thira, an island of the Mediterranean Sea with land off the coast is underwater and was volcanic. Thira is said to be Atlantis because of it's proximity to the Straits of Gibraltar and is said to have gone underwater due to the thaw of the ice age. So that would put this island underwater sometime around 12,000 to 10,000 BCE.
Atlantis is Thira...Source

Also, scientists are now beginning to heavily lean that the Sphinx was very possibly built around 10,500 BCE because of the fissures produced by rainfall on it. This period coincides with the melting of the ice from the last Ice Age (13,000 - 8,000 BC) AND that in that same period, the Sphinx directly faced East towards the Leo constellation AND ALSO in the SAME period, Orion's belt (constellation) was directly South of the Giza pyramids and line up perfectly with the way the pyramids are laid out on the ground. This period is the Age of Leo the Lion, which lasted from 10,970 to 8810 BC.
Here's one of the sources that talks about it.
Sphinx and it's possible older date "Source"
And another source which directly links Egypt to the possibility of Atlantis
Robert Bauval and his idea "Source"

So if all of this has bearing, and scientists figure that the Sphinx pre-dates their original theories (which was only a guess up to this point referred to when the pyramids were built because there has been no factual evidence as of yet to determine exactly how old the Sphinx really is) and the Sphinx was submitted to the floods due to the thaw after the ice age around 11,000 BCE, and Atlantis was ALSO submitted to the same flood around the same time...is it possible that survivors took their extraordinary intelligence and knowledge to the Egyptian land and taught the people there the great things they needed to know in order to build their great monuments? it's another possibility, and a growing one at that.