History is beginning to repeat it's self once again. "America" the modern day Roman Empire. America established itself as a super power about the time of World War I. It really began having a tremendous effect on the world's issues.

Like Rome, America is on the decline. We have had our shares of wars. And piece by piece small unknown country's, or terrorists may begin to bring our great country down. Like the Goth's did with Rome, like the various tribes did with Ghengis Khan.

I would just like to hear your thoughts on this issue.

true...it does feel like the decline of the super power that was america in the 50's, lets just hope the economical balance will be pass on in a evolutive manner, wouldn't like to live through the 29' krash again.

In this modern era it's about media and economics ( as politics are influenced by the news and the armies are about pay check and not about the mother land), this will according to me lead to the evolution of a super china the US won't fall, it will just blend with the backround like the UK today.

I don't exactly see how America and Rome can be directely compared. We're talking about different times (with different international realities), different sociopolitical systems, different approach on world issues, different approach on internal affairs.
Rome was an empire, with all the imperialistic aspects an empire has. America is a democratic state, albeit a one that can affect the rest of the world, without any terittorial gains to claim or defensive wars to commit to.
Of course one can argue that there is a "war" or "gains" or "defensive actions" on many levels (e.g. economical, political, commercial) but nevertheless I find the comparison between USA and ancient Rome to be incompatible.

What I mean by the similarities are how there decline is related. They all became to powerful, and tried to divide there enemies, and different tribes or countrys began to slowly pick apart the super power.

Your comparison of Rome and America are fairly apt, your timeline is just a little out of kilter though. We are still in the late “Republican” (ironic, ain’t it) stage of our national development, not the Empire stage. Republican Rome had many of the same problems at this stage. They had problems with a Germanic intrusion in late 2nd century BCE, which was only stopped by Gaius Marius. A insurgency problem (yes, even the Romans had to put up with guerrilla tactics) in the Province of Hisperia (present day Spain) was like-wise put down by Gaius Marius, a man who somehow served as Consul seven times, although Roman law set a limit of around half that. Gaius Marius was replaced by the infamous Sulla, who as “Dictator for Life” of the Roman Republic completely reformed the Roman government, making another Sulla impossible (or so he thought). This set the stage for the foundation of the Roman Empire by “Big Julie” (Julius Caesar) and we know the rest of the story. We are still (nominally) a Republic and if we are really careful, we can probably remain a Republic for a few decades more. One thing to consider is that even under the Emperors, the citizens of Rome were free in most aspects, retaining their basic rights, and much more affluent than in Republican times. All I can say is, “Watch this space for further developments”.

well,i'm livin peacefully in a small country....and i dont feel good bout this.

now that says alot.

I dont know my Rome, you do, more into the Civil War and the Revolution's.

well it's like the down fall of the british empire then, same schema different time period... it happends over and over again it's the way of life on earth.

I have heard this from people that really know history, but the conclusion is not the same as what you have posted. I am not taking into account how much knowledge you have of history, since I do not know, but I am giving you my point of view on this.

Maybe as a whole humans are prone to repeat the past.
Maybe we just love to predict doom and gloom.

To me it's a matter of how you look at life.
Is your glass half empty? So life would always seem like its about to end.
Is your glass half full? So life is just getting better.
Is your glass always full?
Is your glass never full?
Is your glass always empty?
etc

The economy of the US is very strong, but it is dependent on what people perceive is going to happen. With the way communications have evolved in the world today it is possible that outside forces (even small ones) could cause major damage. However, to cause the entire economy to completely collaspe would take a whole lot more that the forces that brought the Roman Empire down.

The US economy gets more tangle up with the world economy every day. Is that the reason people think the US is an Empire?

Point taken, as for the United States economy being strong well we can leave that up for debate. I am not doubting the leadership of Geroge W. Bush fact of the matter is I voted for him. The United States has seen a signifcant job decrease in America since Bill Clinton left office in 2000. I guess I was spoiled by Bill Clinton creating so many good paying job's for an everyday American.

Note: I am a republican.

Another difference, in the US the President does not actually create jobs. In Rome the leader was able to create jobs.
Jobs are created by small business owners and corporations, or as in Clintons years by large 'internet bubbles' that create a false environment. It is our perception that (unfortunately) creates a false "logical conclusion"...

Anyway, look at the last ten years and the hits the US economy has taken. If the economy as a whole was not strong, we would be looking at 20% unemployment during a recession.

Fortunately for Mr Bush all he had to do was spend money and let the ball roll. Sure most of us lost jobs and had to move on to different careers, but you cannot have progress without change. We do not have doom and gloom. Even with all the jobs going overseas we still don't have 20% unemployment.

The real fact is that America got attacked. Two planes hit two towers and one hit the pentagon. I really don't see that as America declining. Like any good leader would do, Bush said he was going to go out and fight terrorism. Not just Al Qaeda, terrorism. In order to get some peace in the world, attacking Saddam was important to peace and the saving of lives. If Saddam were still in power, many millions more would be dead, but they are alive today. America went in and took out most of Al Qaeda and Saddam from power and we're about to kick the crap out of Fallujah and the terrorists built up in there. Two new countries have set up democracies and the terrorists are no longer in power. America's economy is strengthening after the attacks and more jobs have been created than were actually lost. It's not like America is on some power trip and out to control and take over the known world like Rome. We're out liberating oppressed nations and succeeding and soon we will leave and let the people of those nations set up their governments. I don't see America and Rome in the same boat.

i definitly see the U.S. in a decline, corupt politicians and voters, (republicans), beliveing their votes actully matter, even though the higher authority controls wht votes actully count, and a decling economy and military status, eventually, according to this hypothesis, america will see a strong increase in military and politcal power, im praying for aa victory by Clinton in 08', or 12' by another canidate

So how's you glass?

I don't think we're in a decline, and I can't really compare the US to Rome. A few weeks ago, my US history class was studying on progressivism and its impact on the country. In it, Teddy Roosevelt had supported the revolution in Panama, so we could have the chance to build the Panama canal and have a much faster and easier way to get ships to the atlantic from the pacific. I think that George Bush is kinda doing the same thing with the war in Iraq. He is helping to liberate the iraqi peoplw, and he is also going to make it easier for us to have oil, which wilkl further benefit us Americans. And I don't think we're in a decline either.

There are NO way China would be able to pick USA apart! Chinese military may be biggest but they lack of technology to fight a long distance warfare, they're only good for defend or short distance offensive. Also Chinese have only 5 nukes compare to 20,000 USA have. So if Chinese even send any they would get it 10X worse. ALso their armory would got tear apart like piece of wet paper if pin against USA armory. The biggest reason we are worrying about chinese is because they could nuke USA but they would suffer even worse if USA nuke them back. Also we dont want them to spread communist. So it is the time tp end whole "Chinese will destroy USA!" theory. Only countries with real ability to destroy USA is the Russia BUT that is as long as our USA militaries dont get to their land because once USA armory and fighter Jet get there they would be dead meat big time. Beside that it will be way too hard for any other countries to take USA out. The reason we are worrying about our relationship with international is because we dont want them all to turn their back to us for various reason. Especially the economic and trades reason.

However to play fair, USA is very vulnerable in some way. Look at all illegal immigrant from Mexico we are getting over here. They can really ruin everything. Also if disagreement among few states get bad enough it can be end of USA. So basically only hope for those damn rice eating, communist nuts hugger, aggorant fellows from chinese will be to wait for USA to chew itself up bad enough to weaken its own defend before try take over. But once again the biggest questions are will their technology even permit it?

"so how's you [B][I][U]glass?

Economicly speaking China is a work horse, technicly still under the comuniste regime it's still more productive then America. Productivity will lauch china as top dog, it's like the america of th 50's every body is working or looking for a job, the big compagnies that need products will buy it form china, because it's cheaper.

the day they will turn capitalist the true power of china will be unleashed, like a water bottle exploding under the pressure of to much water.

then there army will be was evolved as america, of course this may take a few years.But I'm learning Cantonese just in case.

reminds me of the American government. Dictators of the life of their own citizens, and the citizens of other nations.

hmm very interesting thoughts i have read here that some ppl made...but you are missing one thing, USA only worries about their international relationship because of the benifits they get out of them, economically. China has the power and money to make as many nukes as they want and get themselves so advanced with weapons and such but that would cause some economic problems for them, unlike the US that spends like half of what it got over weapons and advanced technology. But US has a good reason for doing so, seeing that it makes an enemy every two days........and US always thinks they are the "good guy" for some reason, that is why ppl who are in USA are like confused to the reactions of the ppl who hate them, like the Iraqi ppl for example. Right now i don't think only one country can take on USA and like destroy it, because the US always makes SURE that there isn't a country in this world that can Challenge it by making them look bad and dangerous and try to make them their allie, like North Korea.

we spend lots of money over weapons and other military technology to protect the rest of the world. We are like an older brother, who protects their younger brothers and stuff. The US has also helped turn the tides in two wars. Two very big, important wars. I don't see it the way you do, with Korea, and how we have to suppress other nations that make us look bad. WE have to protect the world, because we are the ones with the technology and the money to do so. That's why we "suppress other nations". Thats why we see ourselves as the good guy.

but what do you do with old weapons?

I do give you the credit on "helping" with ww1 and ww2 ( the nuclear tension it created was something we needed after one of the most massive wars ever), but that's why there the UN.
If the US in the older brother, the UN is the mom. Some times the US rebels it self and goes of to play with the kids down the block, then comes back with a scraped knee and watery eyes.
( i think that enough with the mom/kid analogy)
The UN is a powerful peace oriented organization if you start going to war by your selfs, you might as well move out of the UN. Korea is a huge problem to handle, because they have nuke capability and it's relatively close to the western side of the US , just hope it's going end as a diplomatical balance like they did with cuba during the missile crisis.

I think it's funny...

The Romans base their culture on the fallen Etruscans who had over the years become greedy and corrupt. The Romans decided to never become like them and established a constitution of sorts. For years everything was dandy...

Until they became corrupt themselves which lead to their division and eventual destruction.

Then America came along and looky, looky, the same thing is happening.

I'll give ya'll a century. Tick, tick, tick...

On a documentary I watched a few years ago there was this large hive of bees under attack from a group of wasps.

The wasps were slaughtering the bees, until they gathered their senses, united, and swarmed the wasps, overpowering them by numbers alone.

Pretty cool.

that makes me remember the Mao era, when he said "if i ask to my population to jump at once the western world would regret it."

I have to agree with the guy that compared America to the late Republican stage of Rome.

Also, Romans and Americans shared ideals and world view:

1. Symbols - Rome and the US shares a lot of symbols - the eagle is one that comes into mind.
This is no accidant either - US's founders were influenced alot by the Roman system (senate, constitution, congress etc.), and so the Roman Republic as an example to copy from and the US as a continuation of the Roman ideals.
So even in the base of it's values, the US was founded based on Roman ideas.

2. Even the rebelion myth is shared by the two - both Romans and Americans had a myth of fighting for their freedom against foreign rule.
This myth affected Romans alot - even when they've expanded their territory outside Latium, they still considered themselves underdogs and liberators of other people - and such a myth also deeply affects Americans.

On the other hand, I tend to not agree with people who speak of "Pax-Americana" and "Casus Belli" as American policies.
Most of America's criticisers believe that like the Roman Empire, all of America's policies are pre-planned in one big conspiracy to rule the world - meaning that America is an imperialistic and militaristic state.
I strongly oppose these claims, because they fail to see the followings:
The US is (still) a democratic republic, meaning that it's policies are decided by the people.
All of the countries that the US have counquered were not annexed by it, but rather freed the people from tyrants (well mostly), and the people admired America for this (Eastern Europe comes into mind these days, most of the Iraqi people, and Western Europe in the years after WW2), and didn't submit out of fear (like the Gauls and Germans did when they were conquered by the Romans).

Also, I see such claims (that America is an empire or want to be an empire) as a total hypocricy, especially when the ones spreading these claims want to become an empire themselves (European Union, China) or were an empire until very recently (the Russians, which were an empire only 14 years ago).


As for American cultural influence, and it's analogy to Roman cultural influence - here I see almost an exact parallel:
Children and adults, from Japan to Spain, listen to American music, admire American stars, watch American movies.
English has become "Lingua Franca" of the world, and the world money - that even America's biggest haters won't decline to accept - is the American dollar.

So - is America the new "Roman Empire"? I doubt that.
America is a democratic republic, and it doesn't annex other countries.
Is America on the decline just like the Roman Empire was? I don't think so. America is on the rise both economically and demographically.
Is America on the verge of becomming a new Roman empire? this is a possibility. The American people will have to think in what direction they are heading for.

Also, one has to remember that the Roman republic stayed a republic for a very long time - almost 700 years - before becomming an empire.
It later survived for another 400 years in it's western part, and 1,400 in the eastern empire (untill March 29, 1453).
I won't be so quick into burrying America.

Also - if America is being compared to the new Roman empire, what's the analogy for the European Union?

Here is a piece of interesting information, nothing big but still....

Once my latin teacher (DONT try talk to me in Latin!) say that the person who are most like Caesar would has to be JFK. So... if that is correct America will have certain amount of president before it got torn apart. But who know...

Julius Caesar was a mass murdering tyrant...JFK, relatively, was a man of peace. Comparing the two is insulting, eh.

is give america about 4-10 years to mass rioting and possibly civil war, and 10-50 years before a complete collapse and civil war

JFK was killed in the '60s. Ohhh I don't know thats something like 30 years ago.
Man, I am so glad I missed all those riots and the civil war.


"Think" AM

Aknowledging the danger of repeating myself, I'll say once more that a direct comparison is entirely misplaced. USA is not an empire, nor it follows the same sociopolitic norms. Thoughts like "give america about 4-10 years to mass rioting and possibly civil war, and 10-50 years before a complete collapse and civil war" are entirely lacking in logic foundation. If you want a comparison of modern America, you can try England of 18th and 19th century.

And England is still here, now, isn't it?

i call those comments quote, " gothic and pessimistic"




edit:hey, this is my 66th post, aint tht cool

All great powers has there down fall, it normal, America will probably fall but in a enconomic way. Like France or Spain did in the middle ages.

Lets just hope it's going to be not a catastrophic fall and more of a porduction slow down. Like England still a economical power but not THE economical power... In fact right now if you want to sell anything you have to sell it to the asian market alot more possibilities.

Very good thought, but, what if just what if this "anti-americanism" spreads to other countrys causing fear, and reluctance from our allies to the states. Our international relationships, and our diplomacy is on a great decline.

American's dont believe we are the "Good Guy" atleast I dont, take for instance the war in Iraq I love Geroge Bush to death granite he wants oil for blood. I do not at all support the war in Iraq but I support he troops. We are not the good guy in Iraq, nor will we ever be. We should have every single diplomatic represenative in North Korea, or at least our army.

I wonder how many Americans know that when the solders where knocking down Sadam statues, the Iraqi that were giving the thumbs up were actually giving their eqivalant to the finger.

Mishari question...
Do you think that all this terrorism is linked to how much money we are giving Israeli government and if we stopped would the terrorism back off.
I am a supporter of Palestine, I think they have a just cause. Just as the Native Americans had a just cause in the Indian wars. Their land has been stolen, they have been put in camps. I would like see the government stop giving Israel money but the Zionist lobby is just too big. They kill people that go against them. The whole situation is nuts. The UN really s***wed up big time with putting those Europeans there. How do you undo it? What a mess.
Just think what the world would be like if we would stop fighting wars. We would be colonizing the moon by now. That is an idea, we could put the Israelis on the moon.

The left is in flames over G.W.B's relection. The drafts coming soon, and the patriot act is taking affect. Did you know that several of my friends have been denied passports because they had pictures of them taken via sattalite during a protest? Or that, in order to have a protest we have to have a permit. Tell the government what the protests about, where its at, and when its going to be. Protesters can be cordoned off to remote areas, where the only people who see the protest are the cops following you around and the snipers in the bushes.
Your free, so long as your told you are. Im sorry, I dont believe that. I just hope every american citizen is aware that the rest of the world is fed up with this nations actions. And that theres a growing number of people within this country that feels the same.
Peace
Love
Unity
-Novo(Thats latin babs, for change.)

yeah Darkwind i get what you are trying to say bro. The US does and will always support Israeil finically and with militatry support. Well since most of Bin Ladin's actions are being done because of what Israeil is doing in Palestine then yeah i think there is a very good chance for terrisiom to stop.

Well considering the average age of an empire is 200-300 years I guess America is becoming senile.

"Economicly speaking China is a work horse, technicly still under the comuniste regime it's still more productive then America."

the day they will turn capitalist the true power of china will be unleashed, like a water bottle exploding under the pressure of to much water."


China is capitalist. I live here and have a Chinese wife.

They have a free market system here. They are "communist" in name only. Communism, by definition, is a planned economy not a free market. The great strength of China is its number of people. Most of them are farmers however. The mainland Chinese are generally speaking inefficient and tend to make work for themselves when they do things. I believe you need something like 7 mainland Chinese people to do the work of 1 Hong Konger.

They are also poor engineers. Quality is an alien concept to them because they are often too busy trying to make a quick buck and largely have the perspective that another mug will come along at any moment ( as a side effect of having so many people ).

Organization is also a problem because everything is from the top down and the "leaders" as they like to call themselves have a habit of telling people and employees nothing until the last possible moment. On the other hand the Chinese are a tough people deep down although most of them are very friendly and non-confrontational. Once they are taught to do something the right way i.e. in a factory, they do it more consistently right than a western person who is often trying to innovate.

The Chinese economy, in bare dollar exchange rate terms is only 1/7 of the size of the USA's. In Purchasing Power Parity, according to CIA stats, it is about 1/2 the size. The Chinese economy will probably have real problems with the WTO unleashing real competition in the future. As it is the Chinese government has protected its domestic industries since 1979. How much longer it can successfully do so is the big question.

I read a book that compared America to ancient empires, including rome and babylon. I think it was called "America's Last Call". I can't remember the author though, but it pointed some things out that were very similar, mainly the fact that many of the ancient civilizations that fell had a jump in prosperity and power before they collapsed.....................

I cant wait, then my Canadian dollar will FINALLY be worth more than the damn american dollar...


WATCH OUT EBAY! HERE I COME!

Well if america was to fall apart because of financial issues, I would think that all you countries that owe us billions of dollars, should cough it up, and pay your dues..
We gave the French BILLIONS of dollars to help France after WW2. Mexico owes us big time, and Probably every other country out there owes us more then they could ever repay.
Are we ever gonna see that money?? No... We probably wont see a dime of it. Personally I find it amusing how fast people will ask for Americas help when they are in trouble, yet, they turn their back on America if times get tough.

Another thing I find amusing is that the French would be speaking German right now if it Wasnt for the English, and Americans.. HOWEVER, They hate English speaking people (For A Majority)?? Personally I think that is pathetic.. Kinda like Canadians, they talk alot, but havent ever really done anything.

I see hitler as a sick man personally. Yet when I see how countries and people are backstabbing, money hungry, and just plain ignorant their government is obviously not doing right, I dont see how there is a problem with taking over a country, and a country's Government. Yet that is the difference with america, We do not take your country after we kick the tyrants out of it. But still, Americans are pertrayed as the bad guys.

Oh well, I guess as long as we are the most powerful nation the world, people will always hate us. But we will always love you guys. Personally I would love to see the beliefs of all country's being to help eachother out, and work together.. Yet America does it, and everyone b*****s that we doing soooo wrong. Also how could u expect your country to become as powerful as america when your leaders charactor, is to ask for help, then take off after things are good.

Actually, isn't it the other way around? America owing OTHER countries billions? So much so that they're practacally bankrupt?

I find it funny how when other countrys ask for Americas help America turns there back on them untill its convient or they are forced on the Issue, i use WW2 as an example, Britain, Canada, and Russia wanted the US in, but the US said no beceause it didnt affect them, the Only reson the US joined the war is because Japan attacked.

~Thanato

P.S. Nothing Lasts for ever.

The United States actually tried to be isolationist before WWI, it was only after a supposed letter from Germany to Mexico encouraging it to invade before any troops were officially sent. Also, we had fighter pilots in France almost from the beginning, although they flew under the French authority.

Also, there was a pretty large military build-up in the States in the time leading up to Pearl Harbor. The idea was that we were probably going to end up in the conflict anyway. The Imperial Japanese knew they would have to get the United States out of the way if they wanted to keep control of the Pacific. Plus, we were already involved in the war financially, with the Lend-Lease Act. So it's not like we were turning our backs on anyone, but the US had more of a behind the scenes role until then.

Of course, I mostly slept through history class.

As Snuffy pointed out, Lend Lease! Had it not been for Lend Lease Britain and Russia would be speaking German today. Do you realize how many civilian sailors and aviators America lost bailing out the butts of Britain and the USSR, not to mention the cost (never paid back) of the food, clothing, munitions, military equipment, and so forth? I remember we (the civilian community) were putting together "Bundles for Britain", to relieve the suffering of our cousins across the sea. Now look at the gratitude! I know, what have we done for you recently!:rolleyes:

Hmm, no. I can't think of anytime since the civil war that America has asked for foreign aide of any sort. The US owes money to the people it taxes (its citizens), not the people it hands out the tax money to (Israel, Iraq, Bosnia).

The way I see it, what's going on here right now is more akin to the Vietnam era, an unpopular war, the populace sharply divided. It's actually been a lot more civil now than it was then, and we weathered that storm. And we lost Vietnam, by the way.

The effects of this current war in Iraq will have repurcussions that last decades, no doubt about it, but the United States will still be standing when it's all said and done. I think if I had to compare my country to an empire in the past I think it would be closer to the British Empire, and we all know how they turned up.

What of the 100 and something other countries involved in ww2?
the us in actuality did very little.