I have a question for the people who have been here longer than I have (seeing as how I just registered, that wouldnt take much).

I have a very close personal friend who has lived within a mile of an Navajo Indian Reservation in Utah, and has related the following story to me.

His family had been going to visit relatives in another city, and to get there, they drive through a stretch of Indian Reserve Territory. It was in the early evening, and his mom was riding in the passenger seat asleep, as were most of the rest of his family (he actually thought they all were asleep) while he drove. Out of the corner of his eye, he caught motion coming from the driver side shoulder of the road, and what he saw startled him to say the least. It was about 5'11 to 6'2, naked, and hairless. It was keeping pace with him, (approx. 45 miles per hour) and seemed to exude a sense of hatred towards them. He floored the van (97 Chevy Astro-van all-wheel drive extended) and quickly went to about a hundred miles an hour. The skinwalker kept up with him until about 60, and then simply stopped running.

He didnt mention this to his family seeing as how they might think he was crazy, until his younger sister (7-ish) mentioned the same thing to him and his mom. She described it accurate to his memory, and even described how he (her brother) had sped up to get away from it. Their mother told her it was just a dream, and not to worry. My friend knows it wasnt a dream, and knows he isnt crazy.

According to what I can find, a skin-walker is essentially nothing more than a "witch doctor/medicine man" gone evil, and as such are attributed all sorts of mystical powers and abilities. However, they need the skin of an animal to get their abilities. He heard stories from some of the Navajo's at high school of "skinwalkers" that were smooth skinned, hairless and exist simply to cause pain. I was wondering if anyone has anymore stories (doesnt matter how far removed from the source they are) about these "smooth" skin-walkers.

thanks from a "newbie"
Chris

Welcome to the forum Chris!
I found a site with some info on your skin walkers.
Very intresting stuff.
http://www.dangermedia.com/horrors/skinwalker.html

It's actually a story...but still intrestin.:)
I'll try to find factful stuff if I can.

In all actuality, I am interested in as many stories as exist (doesnt matter what the relation, or how far from the source it is).

thanks,
Chris

Nothing like responding to your own thread eh?

More information on the "smooth" skin-walkers.

Description (as far as I have collected)

They are usually between 5'5 and 6'5 from all the varied accounts, and stories I have read. They are all "male" in appearance, even though they have no visible genitilia. They are resilient (to the point of being hit by cars, and being seen getting up and running). Very human appearance, and some stories report them to be a form of magical eunech created by the real skin-walker to be a protector. They are sometimes seen along with a "familiar" style animal. And, are rarely seen in daylight. Every sighting of them has the people in it fleeing for their lives from these, and some have the smooth skin walker following them throughout the tribe.

Anymore information, or sightings, or even fiction written about them would be appreciated.

Chris

Here is a couple more sites I found: http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm148890.html   and    http://web.nmsu.edu/~tomlynch/swlit.skinwalkers.html

Homer[glow=color,strength,width]

Homer,

Are you a member at unsolvedmysteries.com????  If you are what is your author id #???  I love that site.;)

Jamie

Jamie,

I'm not a member there, although I do frequent there quite often. I agree with you, it's a great site.

Homer[glow=color,strength,width]

I was sitting here at work, and realized that the skinwalkers have a very similar resemblance to the movies/series of "The Crow", although in the case of the skinwalker, they aren't out to right some wrong, they are just evil. Anyways.

Chris

Has anyone see more skinwalkers???

Who or what from "The Crow" does the skinwalker look like? I was just wondering because there wasn't much detail as to which character looked like it. Also, I've only seen the first movie (starring Brandon Lee, may he rest in peace), but the only one I can think of that you could be talking about is his character when he's wearing that skin-tight suit. Let me know if you're talking about a different character or movie altogether.

my names Ryan and im a Full Blooded Utah Navajo
i know exactly what your talking about......the same thig happened to my mother when she was driving back to utah late one night from a Educational Conference in window rock, arizona. execpt with her it was an actually coyote.....running besides her car at about 70 miles per hour give or take. she was alone and so she couldnt exactly panic rather then just speed up an continue driving.

IN ANY CASE a skin was is ..yes... a Witch...well a person whos very very educated in "the evil way". there are many ceremonies that are involved in a person who turns into a Skinwalker. the ones everyone heard about are usually when a WITCH jumps over a fire and when he/she lands on the other side....he'she is a skinwalker. however in his or her time as being a skinwalk, she cannot die from any type of gun shots....or injuries UNITL they transform back into their human form.

there are many types of skinwalkers ranging from your Basic "werewolf" type creature to just a Man-Form having the same "supernatural" abilities. these types are usually just men painted completely WHITE from head to toe with black spots around their bodies. I've heard stories of them being in HORSE form, DOG form, some stories i heard from my own family member is that htie can actually be in a black "FOG" like form with only RED EYES. now i know your thinking...their just seeing ghosts....NO, thats an entirely different thing.

there are many things about Our culture in which a truely Traditional Navajo like myself knows. however i am your "liberal" type navajo in which i am NOT christian, i do unmderstand whats right and wrong. im actually majoring in political science and im currently servicing my term in the US Marine Corps at the moment. if that tells u what kind of common sense i have about these stories, then i IMPLORE YOU TO QUESTION ME[attachmentid=20589]

I read a book a while ago, that described skin walkers as native shamans.

Wikipedia:

Skin-walker is a witch or someone who practices a certain type of witch craft, that turn them into a certain creture (mainly a canine of some type).

Such witchcraft can be found in numerous cultures all over the world, closely related to beliefs in witchcraft, werewolves and other "were" creatures. The Mohawk Indian word "limikkin" is sometimes used to desribe all skin-walkers.

Possibly the best documented skin-walker beliefs are those of the Navajo yenaldooshi, also sometimes referred to as a Navajo witch by outsiders. The yenaldooshi are evil human beings who have gained supernatural power by breaking a cultural taboo. Specifically, a person is said to gain the power of a yenaldooshi by murdering a close relative. The skin-walker will travel through the community by night, spreading misery and desecrating holy things. He or she is usually described as naked, except for a coyote skin. The yenaldooshi is also said to have the power to assume the form of a coyote or other animal.

The main power of the yenaldooshi comes from its use of corpse powder which is made from human cadavers. Touching the powder will curse a person with sickness or death. This is an inversion of the use of pollen among the Navajos, which is sprinkled to produce blessings. Another form of this is a bone pellet which the yenaldooshi will shoot into a victim's body.

In ancient Hopi culture ther was a ritual ceremony once performed called the Ya Ya Ceremony. In this ceremony members would change themselves into various animals using hide from the chosen animal, and the members use certain animal attributes like sight, strength,etc. The ceremony was banned after members developed a disease of the eyes.

In Norse folklore, a skin-walker is a person who can travel in the shape of an animal and learn secrets, or take on certain characteristics of an animal. The person is then said to be wearing that animal's hide. The most well-known example of the latter is the warrior who takes on the strength and stamina of a bear, called "bear shirt" or berserker. The use of an animal shape for other purposes was considered unholy, and people accused of having such abilities were frequently cast out or summarily executed. Females so charged got off more lightly, until the witch trials began in the Middle Ages and Renaissance.
Source

I have heard of them being rabbit form, coyote form, wolf, dog, and owl. I think the Na Dine' ( Navajo) word for them is "Chindi". They are all evil.


Lapi'che Ni'tis

Hi all, I'm new in this site, but i find it very very interesting!

I just wanted to say that I read something similar at paranormal.about.com...check it out...

Teo.

No, skinwalkers aren't chindi. They are called yenaldlooshi (with punctuations omitted). It basically means that which skulks around on all fours. I have seen one for myself. Not a pleasant experience. It was very dark out, no moon, and the wind was a little gusty. I mistook it for a cat or a rabbit. Debated on what it was, actually, for several minutes before deciding that it must be a cat. I actually got up and followed it for a bit before getting a very bad feeling because its movements were funky, lol (couldn't think of a better word--imagine like somebody trying to make a freshly dead cat look like it was walking around). When I observed/felt that, I ran back to the porch and watched it from there. Once it was up the road a little and just outside of a streetlight, it rolled around in the dirt and came up the size and appearance of a very large dog with a hump towards its rear. It walked on all fours to just under the streetlight and crouched down, staring back and me. At this point, I was yanked back inside by my husband, who had realized that something was wrong on the porch and spotted what I was watching. His family has had a very long and drawn out history with skinwalkers. He has seen them so many times and sometimes too well. He has nightmares about them.

What he has seen is a person in various states of undress. He's seen naked ones and partially clothed (wearing skins on their legs). They all have worn the white and black make up though not all go on all fours. A skinwalker can be just a witch or they can be the "shapeshifter" type that emulates animals. He's of the opinion that the ones that run around on two legs and are naked are "lesser" skinwalkers just by observation. There's a story in the family of one coming to a ceremony in a darkened hogan, crouching and making animal noises between sentences in Navajo. This one didn't want be a skinwalker but had no choice. He would be killed if he tried to leave. All skinwalkers do evil but I don't know, because of this story, if they all want to do the evil they do. Big difference, imo.

Stories of them running at great speeds are not uncommon. My husband and some friends were followed by a group of them some time ago. This group of skinwalkers seemed to stay ahead of them and followed them at speeds of anywhere between 35-45 mph. The road was curvy, however, and it's possible that some did not follow and moved further along the road through a more direct route. Even 35 mph is well beyond the limit of what a human being can run on two legs but we're talking about them using four legs. One of the big questions that we have about the human race is why we opted to become bipedal. When the human race went bipedal, we lost our speed. Children raised wild that run on all fours surpass the speeds of an adult running on two legs. If we overlaid that bit of information on an adult skinwalker, they are probably incredibly fast. From what my husband has observed, the way that they run is almost in a bounding manner, as if they are pushing off with all the force of their legs and arms combined. They are also excellent jumpers.

Corpse powder is believed to be made from the bones of corspes. It is generally blown on a victim and, if not tended to immediately, the victim will suffocate and die with a telltale black tongue. It's obviously an aerial poison. There are other things in a skinwalkers' arsenal as well including possibly another powder that puts the victim into a coma-like state. They also use knives.

My husband also says that a true yenaldlooshi will not only move on all fours, nearly perfectly emulating an animal but will also have red glowing eyes, like a cat's. They don't always move around on all fours but will sometimes stand, bipedally. They sway when they are standing like this. The combination of the sway and the white paint almost make them look like ghosts. He has seen in the transition of standing on two legs and running on fours and said that it looked like the skinwalker's knees were hyperextended when it did that. Some family believe that they are in some sort of drug induced trance state and that's why they seem to be resistant to pain and also explains some of the swaying that goes on.

He has alot of personal and close family experiences with skinwalkers. He's been dealing with them since he was just a little boy and that's how it has been in this family for generations. What he has to say about them isn't as exciting as saying that they are werewolves. The way this family puts it, it's very easy to think that you are seeing an animal when it's really dark and what you are seeing is wearing the skin of one and pretending to be one. They don't perceive them as shapeshifters in the sense that they literally transform their bodies into an animal's. They see them as mentally shapeshifting to become an animal spiritually so what they do is all the more convincing. Probably the most dramatic image I have been told of was a story from a close relative. In this story, it was dusk and the sun had already dropped below the horizon. The relative was driving along a dirt road and saw a pack of skinwalkers running on all fours across the field. Must've been quite a sight.

hi guest you got a question

plese feel free to ask

Stupid question, but what is the difference between a skinwalker and a werewolf? Not trying to be a smartass but just want to know.

...

Skinwalker, as has been said in this thread, people who practice "evil" ways to take on aspects of animals.. if not a form it'self. But it's a spell casting type..

Lyacn/Therianthopes is classified as a desiese or mental phenomina where someone has a deep connection with an animal type that they can, in times of stron emotions, take on mental charicteristics of said animal. Centuries ago.. people would say that it's a desiese that turns people into said animal connection.. most common is the wolf.

Thank you.

To add to SilverCougar's definition, a skinwalker is also not set into just taking on aspects of a wolf but any animal whose skin it possesses. A skinwalker could be taking on aspects of a mountain lion, a bear or a coyote as well. It all depends on what skin they put on. A skinwalker also still possesses a human aspect of the mind as well and this enables them to place medicine bundles, play flutes, utilize weapons and even converse with their victims. They are both man and animal integrated, whereas, from what I recall from werewolf stories, a werewolf may lose the human aspect of their mind while in "wolf form". Somebody correct me if I'm wrong on that last bit about werewolves.

Those who've seen me rage.. can tell you... I'm more Cougar then human in actions...

It's physicaly impossible to "shapeshift" like werebeast stories of old say. Not only would it hurt like all get out, but it would strain your body and metabolizm to the point you'd die shortly afterwards from shock.

Exactly. The body just doesn't work that way.

Any real lycanthrope or therianthope can tell you... it's a spiritual connection. Not a physical transformation. It can even date back to the Vikings with their berzerkers... They thought carying a specialy treated animal skin gave them the power of that animal... and can be thought of on of the many types of wereism.

what happens if one catches you? do they kill you? turn you into a skinwalker?

Yes, saw one in NE Maricopa county when I was a teen...Both me and a friend saw it, though it did not give chase. It crossed the Hi-way in front of us and basically looked like a Coyote running on it's hind legs. As my buddy slammed on the brakes it stopped and looked right at us, then took off in the same direction it was heading before. Of course we turned around ASAP and headed back the way we came, totally disregarding the desert party we were headed to.

On a side note, 2 people were shot to death at the party we were going to attend that night. Yes, I'm part Apache from Mom's side & my Father is Lakota, so I know after seeing something of that nature, it's best to go home...And my buddy wasn't argueing about it either.

My lord...It's been over 20 years since I thought of that experience, and damn sure never thought people had had something similar happen to them...I certainly never thought I'd ever tell anyone either.

Oh, what happens if one catches you? I had talked to my great Grand-Father about it (didn't really tell the whole story, more of a question), he's full blooded Apache, and he said if they cross your path, that are warning you, if they follow you they are looking to possess you...I didn't ask anymore about it.

how would they posses you?

what happens when thry become you? do you led the same life or will it kill you

Dunno...And I really don't want to know.

i do

Then... do some research on the net... you'll probaly fond what you're looking for

I don't think it's a matter of people that know won't tell you but more a matter if they know, they can't tell you.

My husband (Navajo) says that they are attracted to people who have a power that they covet and that they want to steal that power from the victim. Hard to say what they would do if they caught a person. They laid out a relative completely so that they could've done anything that they wanted with him (and the family believes he was the intended victim) but they left him there, unconcious. He did move from the res and never comes back for more than 24 hours.

Wise choice that you and your friend turned around, knothere. Some people may think it's silly but if there is something not right outside or we think something may be outside, we just lock up and go to sleep. Better to just be on the safe side instead of pretending like nothing is wrong. Our medicine man said that our family was getting visited because of a "woman's jealousy". What's kind of weird is that I've heard of other families hearing the same thing from their medicine men. Who knows what they want...only the skinwalkers do for sure and I'm certain that they can't/won't tell.

P.S. Silvercougar, again...exactly. It is what they wear that confuses the viewer to believing in a physical transformation. With a spiritual transformation, it seals the deal because they are the animal, mentally.

I used to live on Navajo Nation in Kayenta. Once while on our way back from Flag Staff, near Tuba City, my husband and I saw something weird. I don't know if it was a skinwalker or what. It was like a shadow person, tall, blacker then black, almost two-dimensional looking. It ran out in front of our car, and while running turned it's head and seemed to look at us. It was creepy! I would have thought I was just seeing things but my husband yelled, "what the f**k was that?!?!" and I said, "you saw it too?" It was very strange. We saw something similar another time, near the junction to Tuba, on our way back from Page. Always near the Hopi reservation.

Iirc, I believe the Hopi are one of the tribes that advise against travelling through the Navajo res at night. I have family that lives not too far from the Hopi reservation and it's a hotbed of activity. The Hopi and the Navajo warred with each other alot (I think the Hopi name for Navajo are something like head smashers) and that they do tell stories about Navajo skinwalkers. I guess it would make sense that skinwalkers frequent the border there. I do know that getting a "flyby" by a skinwalker is one of the most common ways for a person to see one. They must enjoy the spook that they cause or something. There's a story out here about one actually getting hit by a car while doing this and the IHS staff fainting from the smell and sight as they removed the skins. The story changes a bit here and there and is alot like an urban legend, I think. I don't know if that's what you and your husband saw but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. My husband has had a few moments where similiar has happened. Unsettling, definitely. A relative also once pulled up to a stoplight on the reservation and watched as one crossed the crosswalk in front of him at around 2 am. Go figure.

i checked out skin walkers after reading this thread. i must say its interesting. i will go look more into it probably if it doesnt scare me first

There was a Navajo joke my husbands students told him:

Q: What does a Hopi man give his wife that is long and hard?
A: His last name.

Ok, you probably had to have spent some time on the rez to get that one.

I heard a urban legend living out there that a trucker hit a man walking his dog, and becaues of all the fur from the dog the police thought it was a skinwalker and let the trucker go without charging him with vehicular manslaughter. I don't know if that is true or not.

rofl, great joke! I'll have to tell that one to my father in law. He collects native jokes. That's one of the things that is a bit of a problem if you've lived on the rez for a bit...not everybody gets all of your jokes anymore.

My husband was actually reading this thread during his lunchbreak and he said that you and your husband definitely saw a skinwalker. He said it was a classic example of what they do to nighttime drivers out here, even to it looking black and flat. Do you remember if you caught sight of any glowing eyes when it looked at you both? It'd be like the glint of a cat's eyes.

I haven't heard that one. Might be a Kayenta story but it sounds like a variation of the one I've heard about the skinwalker getting hit and the IHS docs fainting, doesn't it? I think that there are alot of "urban" legends out here about them. I've seen a few stories get repeated to death that don't even make sense really. There's one out there that talks about a Navajo walking into a death hogan at night because he didn't realize it was one. How a Navajo would fail to recognize a death hogan even at night is beyond me... I think the proliferation of these kind of "urban" (have no clue what else to call it--"rez legends"?) legends is partly because they're not supposed to be talked about so when they do get talked about, it's probably the younger ones that are doing the talking and the story may get embellished. I know that my son first heard about skinwalkers when he was kindgarden. Considering you can't just walk up to a Navajo and say "hey, do you know if this skinwalker story is true?" without being viewed as outrageously rude, there's really no way of verifying alot of the stories that get passed around.

When I first moved to Navajo Nation (from Pennsylvania) I learned quick from the other non-natives what is rude there, and what is not. That and how to handle mice poop so I don't get the huanta virus.

I did not see any glowing eyes. We were, more or less, in shock. I thought it might be a skinwalker. I heard stories from the other non-natives who lived in our complex, and from my husbands' students. I've never heard the one about the death hogan, but I did hear the one about the hitch hiking girl near the junction to Cortez who would kiss you and make you fall asleep, wreck and die. I actually heard that one from an Apache girl that I met at a gas station and gave a ride to....sort of ironic to hear the hitcher story from a hitchhiker.
I know that Navajo were also a bit weary of wolves. It was weird because a wolf (seemed tame) decided to make my front porch his home for a week. He would sleep in my flower bed, and when I went for walks he would follow me and try to hold my hand with his mouth. No one would come near me for the longest time, or talk to me. I tried to ignore it to see if it would go away, and it would not. It's Navajo Nation! It's not like you can call the game warden to come and take it away.
Another one I heard that a lot of people believed was about the witches who lived on Black Mesa. Some people believed that medicine men would curse them by crushing up bones, blowing it in their faces, and that would somehow give them cancer and kill them. I don't know where they get this stuff.

It's good that you had a source. My husband and his family weren't sure how much to tell me before I moved out here because they were certain that I would think I was surrounded by nutcases. Everything else, they taught me...just not skinwalkers beyond warning me loosely of witchdoctors. Good that you were told about hantavirus. People are usually blown away that both hantavirus and the plague (yes THE plague) are both out here.



That's exactly the reason why my husband doesn't have a problem with me talking about what his family knows in regards to skinwalkers. They aren't just a problem for the Navajo. They are a potential problem for anybody that lives or visits the Navajo reservation and it's better to have something out there than nothing. Skinwalkers are dangerous and they don't care if the person is Navajo, another tribe or white. It just doesn't matter to them. A victim is a victim.

I've heard that hitchhiking story, lol. It's a definite local ghost story. You know, the Apache girl probably told you the story to spook you a little but she probably wasn't the one who started it. My inlaws do that to me all the time now, lol.



Yeah, the Navajo are leary of wolves. Any time a wild animal is acting peculiar around a person can be disturbing to them, I've found. They were probably wondering if you were being witched, to be honest with you, lol. Hee hee, you're right about not having anybody to call. There's not even a dog catcher. I don't know how many mornings I woke up in our old house out here to find a bull, cow or horses in my yard...LOL



Actually, you've got some real stuff in both of these stories. Black Mesa does have a reputation of being a haunt for witches, iirc. The medicine men part is a little off though there are definitely medicine men who do bad (skinwalkers are supposed to have as much medicine lore as a medicine man, mind you). The powder is a real thing but the result isn't dying. It's a much more immediate death, iirc, and leaves a telltale sign of a black tongue. It's called corpse powder and is said to be made from grinding the bones of the human dead. It's blown on the face. Skinwalkers do have an arsenal of poison powders as well as powders to render a victim unconcious. I actually find the powders to be the most convincing thing about skinwalkers because an inhalant can be a pretty effective weapon that permits the victim to be hit while still maintaining a distance. We've had one family member hit by a powder and he was unconcious for hours.

I have heard of skinwalkers. How can you be so sure it was one?

My husband is Navajo, born and raised on the reservation and spent a great deal of time in a remote part of the reservation itself, which is a hotbed of skinwalker activity. He grew up with alot of stories about them, including detailed descriptions, as well as having seen them for himself (even stared one in the face with just a window between the two of them) when they came visiting his family since early childhood and all the way into adulthood. Let's put it this way, I've seen one once for myself and it was pretty creepy. My husband has nightmares about them because of the experiences that he grew up with. He knows his own experiences, the experiences of family and friends of his family, as well as the experiences shared to him by his own friends growing up.

What fylgja and her husband saw is a classic skinwalker sighting--one of the most reported types of sightings. Her description of what they saw matches very well as well as the activity of running in front of the car. Skinwalkers aren't always running around obviously trying to emulate an animal. Sometimes, they'll be looking like a really big dog. Othertimes, they look like a shadowy black thing (mind you, it gets pitch black out here). Both my husband and mother in law have seen skinwalkers look like this, as well as their friends.

Hope that helps explain why we're pretty sure that they saw a skinwalker. There's not much out here that does this kind of thing.

I've also seen the black shaped ones, but didn't dawn on me what I was seeing until you now just mentioned it what it may have been...But it was not anywhere near the 4 corners area. So I don't know if it was or not.

I lived up near Poppet Flats CA for a short time, off the back drop of the house we lived in was a canyon, roughly 150' drop to the bottom that naturally got deeper further down. This canyon was the site of a massacre between the Saboba & Temecula Indians, where an estimated 250+ Saboba indians were corraled into the canyon and slaughtered.

Anyway, there were several incidents that occured over the few months I lived there, dogs going nuts and refusing to go outside at night while barking and growling at something that I couldn't see there...We're talking hackles up, teeth bared, barking and growling at something off the back porch, and they would not go out onto the porch. Please note the back porch was on stilts and well over 20' off the ground, leveled off for about 20' then drops off into the canyon. This happened several times, & I never felt any threat at all, figured is was some passing wildlife down below. Cougars are known to be in the area.

Now onto the meat...One night the dogs had their fit, and it was a full moon, & quite bright out so I went out and looked. Down in the canyon I saw a black roughly humanoid shape moving at a remarkable speed down the canyon, and what was odd was the movement was very fluid over the rocks, what I mean by this is with the size of the boulders at the bottom of this canyon, there was no evidence in it's movment is was jumping from rock to rock, & it was not a cougar. Well, that struck me as odd, and I'd never been down in the canyon, but I damn sure was going to have a look see the next day...Thinking maybe the boulders are smaller than they look.

The next day I went down there, and the boulders actually turned out to be larger than they look. Not to brag, but people that know me know I am very adept at moving around in rough terrain, and can do so with speed & silence that many people find very uncanny, even at night...Anyway, there was NO WAY I could move in the manner of whatever I saw during the day let alone at night even with a full moon, and I knew immediately that no human I knew could.

2 nights later I heard a scream from our bedroom and ran back there, dogs of course went bonkers, and I ran to the back of the home to meet my wife 1/2 down the hall & she was terrified. Once i got her calmed down she told me of a black featureless face with glowing red eyes in the south window of the room, note this window is the same side as the back porch, and the canyon, and at least a 25' drop to the gound with no way anyone could look in it.

As I said, I never had gotten a bad feeling from this place, or whatever was around even when I got the feeling I was being watched, which was quite often, particularly at night...But we moved shortly after becasue my wife would have no more of the place.

I had to drag out a map and several searches on the net to find where Poppet Flats are in California. The best I could do is find that it is possibly outside of Banning. Btw, for anybody wondering, Mapquest really sucks for this area! lol

A few things that stand out for me. I'm going to list them off and explain why they are interesting:

1. Your dogs reactions. Skinwalkers are notorious for causing reactions of extreme fright and upset in dogs. If a skinwalker is still some distance away, dogs will react by growling, barking and/or howling. Once a skinwalker is actually quite close to the home, they will hide and be reduced to whining/whimpering useless blobs. Doesn't matter how big and tough the dog is, the reactions are always the same. My own family has had only one dog that would react hostilely to skinwalkers nearby and it was killed (presumably by a skinwalker). My family has suspected for a long time that the actual smell of a skinwalker is what triggers these reactions in dogs. Remember that they are covered in what is generally the untanned/uncleaned skins of predatory animals (ie coyote, mountain lion, bear and so on). Reactions to those kind of animals are actually really similiar. Dogs out here will start howling and barking like mad if there is a coyote nearby. Skinwalkers have a very strong, putrid odor to them, probably partly from the skins they wear and partly the paints that they use to cover their bodies. The smell is horrible. Who knows what kind of olfactory messages are being sent to animals when one is nearby but it probably says something like "I'm really scary, I can kill you and I reek of death". lol

2. You lived next to a canyon. Out here, canyons and washes are pretty much the skinwalker superhighways. There are stories of skinwalker activity even in deeper canyons like Canyon de Chelley. Iirc, Kluckhohn (Navaho Witchcraft) was told a story about a skinwalker cave being found in a canyon on the reservation. Skinwalkers have long been affiliated with canyons and caves. I would presume that they use these dips in the land as a road to go from here to there without being seen. They provide alot of natural cover for a nighttime jaunt unless you're actually looking for something moving down there.

3.



The way that a skinwalker runs is really kind of peculiar. They generally do not run on two legs. If they are going to break out into a full run, it's on four legs. The way that they do this is in a bounding manner, using the force of their arms and legs to propel themselves forward. On flat terrain, the movements are very fluid and reminiscent of a rabbit moving at full speed. They are prolific jumpers as well as being extremely fast. There are stories that the training of a skinwalker begins in early childhood (as young as 3 possibly). Imagine a lifetime of experience at travelling through canyons on all fours. There is no awkwardness at all and I don't think that running through a canyon filled with large boulders would be much of a hindrance to them.

4.

Skinwalkers are notorious for having increased night vision. If skinwalkers begin their training at such an early age, then they probably spend most of their waking hours at night. They are only seen between dusk and dawn. I have never heard of a daytime sighting. This means that they could very well have been raised in the dark since childhood. Their eyes have probably adjusted to compensate for the darkness and this would directly explain how skinwalkers can move about at great speeds even in new moon conditions. The one peculiar thing is that sightings during a full moon are not as common. As my husband puts it, most come out either before the moon has risen, after the moon has set or during the gibbous/new moon phases. They have been spotted during a full moon but it would seem that they prefer much darker nights. If their night vision is increased well beyond the norm (as it would seem to be), a full moon could be like broad daylight to them.

5.

The glowing red eyes are hallmark for skinwalkers. If you do a search on the net, you will find report after report of glowing red eyes. A better description would be like the nightshine of a cat. Light isn't necessarily emanating from their eyes but appear to be more like it is reflected back. You might ask your wife if it was similiar to an animal's nightshine. Considering that canyons are the haunts and thoroughfares of skinwalkers, I don't see how peering into the window of a home on the edge of one would be much of a problem.

Peering into the windows of people's homes is not uncommon. My husband has had it happen to him twice with one time after we got together. I missed that (kind of glad) but my cat reacted pretty violently. There's another story of a couple of caucasian missionaries who were being outright terrorized by them, iirc, in Fort Defiance. They made the mistake of actually having their window open. Needless to say, they moved. Why they peer into windows is kind of interesting to me. Are they just doing it to terrorize the person inside or are they just curious and watching what the people are doing? I almost think the latter of the two because their lives must be so foreign in comparison to our own.

If this had happened on the Navajo reservation or even in what is within the bounds of the four sacred mountains (San Francisco Peaks marks the western boundary), then I would say that it was probably a skinwalker. As it is, it is well outside this area. My husband says that he knows of alot of Navajos living in Barstow, which is to the NE of where I think you lived. It's always possible that they could've moved outside of Dinehtah, particuliarly when the US Calvary was rounding up Navajo to take them to Bosque Redondo (the Long Walk) but that would be some serious speculation. Skinwalkers have been sighted outside of the bounds of the reservation. The furthest report of one to the south is Tuscon, AZ and another story from Phoenix, AZ itself. I recall another story related to me by a woman who was camping somewhere in California, iirc. I'll see if I can dig it up to find out precisely where. Her experience included flute music, which was another signal of potential skinwalker activity.

In all, what you and your wife experienced really sounds like a skinwalker. The reactions of the dogs, the setting (canyon), the speed, the description and the red eyes peering into your home all really seem skinwalkerish. I wouldn't eliminate the possibility that it was one. If it was, then it seems pretty obvious that neither of you was its target. The sighting outside the window was probably an act of curiousity or intended to frighten for fun. Your home was probably just on its path. Otherwise, you would've experienced much more. Perhaps a pack of them circling your home, flute music, them crawling around on your roof and so on. So, even if we can't say for sure if it was or wasn't one, you and your wife can rest assured that the both of you weren't targetted.

I'm not saying it was or wasn't, I really don't know. Yes the area is in the mountains south of Banning, VERY rough rocky country...And among the locals, it's known for odd things going on. Basically, mention anything out of the ordinary to any of the locals and you'll never be met with suprise, but more along the lines of "Ya, strange things can be seen in these parts".

With the position of the moon that night, there were long shadows, so it may have been a my eyes playing tricks, but I really can't be certain...The only thing I can be certain of is whatever I saw didn't look normal.

The entire time we lived there I'd get the feeling as was being watched, mostly at night, but sometimes at dusk or dawn...Not watched over, or stalked, just watched. I tend to follow my gut feelings, they haven't failed me yet, and I've had that "Danger Will Robinson" feeling more than once in my life...And when that alarm goes off I listen to it.

Day time was pretty normal for the most part. Now that you mention it, there were a couple occasions I smelled the tell-tale odor of dead animal carcass, but never during any odd feelings or when the dogs were acting up. Incidently, the dogs never did back down, they wouldn't advance, but they wouldn't back down either, so I really don't know.

Edit - Oh, glowing red eyes, not shine reflection like you get from an animal.

Have to love the attitude...as if it is so blase, lol. I sometimes get amazed when people around here start talking about seeing UFO's or ghosts or whatever. It's very much like as you describe, lol.



I have found from my own experience that once you see something that really is not normal, you can never quite shake it. That's one of the reasons why I started gathering stories about skinwalkers. I saw one and it hurt my mind to try to fathom. It's been a quest ever since.



Well, from your wife's experience with the eyes in the window, your instincts were probably right on the money.



So, the smell could've been something actually dead. I haven't experienced the smell myself but my husband has and he has trouble trying to describe it. It's more than just the smell of a dead thing, it's mixed with blood and whatever it is they use to make their body paints. Out here, the dogs tend to be outside all year long. I know that if we are by our family dog and she's not liking something, she'll stand her ground, too. It's just when the poor things are outside and alone that they have no urge to protect. That could make all the difference in the world to a dog.



Let me try describing it again. Animal nightshine almost has a metallic look because of they have what is called the tapetum covering the retina. Humans don't have this layer at all so it won't have that iridescent look and the pupils certainly won't reflect. However, there are instances where the human pupil will reflect back red (without the iridescence) and this is found in eyes with serious refractive errors. If it were a human eye, it would simply bounce back the light as red, no iridescence. So, comparing it exactly to nightshine is wrong on my part. It was simply the easiest (and laziest) way to explain what information I was looking for. What we would be looking for is a faint glow within the pupil as opposed to actually emitting the light itself (ie was it like a stop light or a dim red glow). My apologies.

I'f fully aware of what it looks like, I'm not stranger to wild animals at night or what their eyes look like when light hits them. My wife described them like glowing embers, not giving off much light, but enough to glow. *shrug* All I can say is what she described, I didn't see it.

lol, didn't mean to make it sound like you didn't know what animal nightshine looked like. I was trying to differentiate between the two. Animals have that glow but it's also iridescent looking, more reflective. Actually, the best way to explain skinwalker glow is probably a photograph. It looks very similiar to red eye in photos.

Sorry.

Skin Walkers.......dont go to ShipRock at night, the actual ShipRock, avoid the cemetary there, or any cemetary on the Rez, they all hang out there. some are white all over some are black with red eyes, some can control spirits to come after you and mess with your head (the more powerful ones). if you ever meet a skin walker during the day, like at the store, they usually have extremely dark eyes, like theres no soul in them. AND DO NOT WHISTLE WHILE YOU ARE WALKING AROUND THE REZ AT NIGHT! if you whistle they will come! a single skin walker walking down a dirt road can end up sounding like 10 horses running down the road.