For those who actually read the Bible, you'll know what I'm talking about here.
One: Adam and Eve were created. Like I said in a previous post, the language and writing of God and the angels in Heaven is Hebrew and Jesus Himself was on Earth as Hebrew/Jewish (whether you all like it or not), so therefore, they were Hebrew. That therefore means, we are ALL Hebrew.
Two: Along the lines other nationalities are created, in the time of Enoch, Enoch who was Ethiopian (as in, African, yes this was after Cain) had a great-grandson names Noah (he may have actually been his grandson not great-grandson but you get the idea). Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives re-populated the Earth. Therefore again, if you want to dispute about color, Enoch, being Ethiopian, would ahve been black, Noah, it was said, was born white, (Noah had snow white hair, white skin, and eyes that lit up the entire house. His father, afraid that his son too was another child of the angels, went to Enoch and asked about his child's origins. Enoch, told him that Noah was not a hybrid, but that he would be saved from the coming flood, etc) technically, that would mean, that everyone is both black and white, and again, Hebrew.
Everything after that comes from those two events, therefore, racism, either by color, or nationality, is not only dumb, but without warrant.

Only if you accept the Christian fairy tales, are we all Hebrew....There is no other document that backs this assertation, no other belief system that backs this delusion. A Hindu (a religion that is as old as Judaism, if not older) could just as easily (and just as falsely) assert that mankind is all Indian! As for Noah, give me biblical references as to his discription or quit reading things into the scriptures. Scientifically, we are all homo sapiens sapiens and that is as close as we will ever get to being one nation! The various races are not the result of God's curses (the oriental in never even mentioned in the bible), so quit pushing your fairy tales and the various things that you read into them.

The description of Noah is in THE BOOK OF ENOCH. If you want to believe it's a fairy tale then go for it, but I find the idea of coming from an ape just as laughable as you claim ancient documents to be.

Yes, Asians are mentioned. Asia is mentioned several times, if you READ it properly. Jesus Himself went to Asia.

See, everyone whinges that belief in God breeds racism, and when I put it to you that PEOPLE created racism without warrant, you jump down my throat for it. It was THEY the, medievil peoples who saw racist themes in the Bible for NOT reading it correctly. Just as Christians today hate Jews, when Jesus Himself, whom they base the majority of their teachings on (especially these newer Christian religions) told them not to hate!

Acknowledging the danger of fueling yet another debate on the origins of life, I would like to ask you how can you find laughable the idea of "coming from an ape" (crudely put) when, comparing to description on religious books, at least the "coming from an ape" tale has scientific evidence to back it up?

As Beowulf has pointed out various times (and as accepted by the majority of Christian, Catholic, and secular scholars), Enoch was a forgery written during the Maccabean period of Jewish history 3rd thru 1st centuries BCE and assigned the authorship of Enoch in an attempt at providing validity to the document. Even your own religionists do not accept the book! As for Asians, the Asians they mention are semites, just as they were, there is no mention of the Mongoloid race in your fairytales! (incidentally, Palestine is actual in Asia)

And scientific fact, knowing how it has in the past proved false, only to be re-evaluated on MANY issues, means WHAT to me, excatly? Don't get me wrong, there are many good aspects of science, but the creation theory is not one of them. Science is as vast a subject as there are religions, but science can be nore biased than any religion could claim to be. Since when are humans all-knowing anyway?

How many times do I have to repeat myself to you people who believe you are talking apes? LOL (sorry this just IS amusing) I have REPEATEDLY shown references to Enoch throughout the Bible, including Genesis, Ptere, and Hebrews. What else do you want? If Enoch is a forgery, then so is science.

You have shown references to the man, not the book. His inclusion in your holy writings is not in question, the validity of the book is - what about this don't you understand?

The advantage of science is not that it is either true or false, but rather that it is a method with which one can assign credibility. Science itself is not something to believed in, but rather it is a system of verification. To say that science is false is similar to saying that the instructions for preparing macaroni and cheese are false. It is simply a label which does not really apply. Instudtions are not false or true; they are ither followed to a specific result, or are not followed and the result is unpredictable.

When science makes a claim, what it is doing is saying "All the evidence that we have to date points towards X being the single most likely way in which these events occured. The likelyhood of these events occuring in this manner is supported by this evidence here that we have collected." This is why science has the credibility and authority that it has; not because it claims to be right or wrong, but rather because it makes the best case with the information available and, when new information arises, it takes it into account and changes its claim if necessary. In science, a theory has to follow very specific rules, and if it fails to do so, it cannot be called science. This is why creationism isn't considered a valid scientific theory; because creationism does not meet the 5 pre-requisites required of every single scientific theory without exception.

Now, as to Enoch, you continually make references to him throughout the bible, then express surprise that we do not accept them. The point that you are missing is that the argument is not wether Enoch himself, or his actions were in the bible, but rather why they were in the Book of Enoch. The events from the bible were used in the construction of the Book of Enoch. To continually claim that the events in the bible back it up is similar to claiming that Forrest Gump was a real person, simply because there is evidence throughout the film placing him in known and confirmed historical events throughout his life. The Book of Enoch is called into question not because of its contents, but because of its source, which has been shown to be at a different times and from a different era than was claimed.

I'm not completely sure how you made the connection between Enoch being a forgery then science must be a forgery, but it is, at its base, erroneous. Enoch is an element who validity and credibility is being measured by science. The same rules that apply to anything else that science measures are being applied to it; it is getting no special treatment.

Well Said!! ... I agree with you 100%!!

the idea of some dude descending from heaven and waved his hands creating humans is more laughable than we coming from apes because we actually have some proof for that but i doubt anyone who believes in god sees it as evidence. who created god? dont say he was always there because when scientists say that about the matter in the big bang theory no one believes them and it is impossible that 6 billion people came from 2 humans. and there are different kind of humans who created them.

We are all human.

We are not all of the same nationality...I'm sorry, that's just absurd.

there is only one race and that human.

Ok, like I said, I'm not against science, there are many avenues of science that I'm quite interested in, I was going to do medicine, but I changed my mind (and yes, I had the brains to do it, and you can pick at that all you want) for personal reasons. I like palentology, astronomy, genetics, etc but even I know that they DON'T have all the answers. Yes, there are methods of coming up with what they THINK is the only possible answer, but there are as many scientists with tunnel-vision as there are Christian pastors who won't accept ancient texts, both of which I disagree with.
In fact, there are as many in the church who refuse to believe in the miracles of God and try to 'humainze' everything as there are scientists claiming we came from an ape (I've said it severeal times here before, it was on the news, there was NO connection between humans and apes, and that the Darwin theory was wrong, but it didn't seem to get publicized beyond there, I wonder why).
And on top of this, I find nothing wrong with my post saying that we are all one nationality, especially when so many now claim to be trying to abolish racism. Just as ninj said, we are all human, and technically, that should be all that matters.

Acknowledging the danger of fueling yet another debate on the origins of life, I would like to ask you how can you find laughable the idea of "coming from an ape" (crudely put) when, comparing to description on religious books, at least the "coming from an ape" tale has scientific evidence to back it up?

Creationism has scientiffic evidence to back it up. It's not our fault if you choose to ignore it, or not to look for it.

Besides, all they teach in school is evolutionism, so obviously, that what you will think is true. Why don't they teach creationist science as well? I mean, the best way to tach a child is to give him all options available and let him make his own choices.

I challange you to go to the middle east and call the islamic religion a fairytale. I doubt you'd escape with your life.

Why are you so very disrespectful of other beliefs? You would judge our God as a fairytale?

I could just as easily say that you are in fact a fairytale, and nothing more than a figment of my imagination. Just as you would seek to prove you are real to me, so Does my God to me. I have seen him with my own eyes. He is more real than you can ever know.

one calm down. two you don't need to yell at christianity just cause you don't believe in it.
three (addresed to ashley now) Thats beside the point however. We just might be all one nation. But were not. Humans were made with minds and brains and thats why were not. Its not our blood that make us a nation. Its our loyaltys and thoughts on that nation. EX: A large group of nomads are in a green forested area. To the left is the beach, to the right is the snow. One man likes snow and has never seen it before. He and a group of nomads go right. Another man hasn't seen the beach and takes a group to live to the left. Another man and group would rather stay in the forest. We have three nations now made up. they weren't there because of a relegion. the nations are there because of three mens thoughts and likes and diffrences. All being one nation to me is having one culture, one language, one nationality. everyone is the same. now wheres the fun in that? no languages to study, no diffrent cultures to visit. just one big very connected but now culturaly bland world.
-Marth

Yes, of course there are different cultures, etc, but ORIGINALLY, they are began from one.

yes but the point of the topic to me at least is why are we racist, have wars, etc, etc. And its becuase we all have diffrent minds

Yes, different cultures which believe one is better than the other creates wars and racism.

Actually, you'll find there isn't.

"Creationist science" as it is often called is based on outdated science and, more often than not, outright lies. There is more often than not an element of truth contained in it, just enough to confuse a layman, but anyone who actually knows what they're talking about can quite easily pick creationist science apart.

To date, no arguement ever brought forward by creationist science has actually stood up to either testing, or prolonged arguement. This doesn't stop the creationists still throwing out the same curve balls over and over, but it doesn't make them any more effective, or correct.

Differnt cultures, one race...

Took al long time to envolve... gotta love primates.

Just to keep on topic...and since I can't be bothered reading the whole thing to see if it was posted or not...

Human life is believed to have started somewhere in Africa. So, all the various races of mankind did start at the same place....but it was such an immensly long time ago, the relationship is a minor one. Rather like what exists between different breeds of dog or cat....the same species, but with pronounced physical differences due to adapting to different environments.

If you believe Convergant Evolution is possible you may be able to turn this theory on it's head, actually. That is to say; several Races may have evolved seperately but been similar enough in genetic structure to interbreed. Were that the case; we'd be closer now to being one race than we actually started out..

We are all creatures of Mother Earth. No matter were we came from.

When we are gone the Earth will live on. Life will go on as it has for billions of years before we came along. The Universe is filled with life. It is what we feel when we open our minds when we Pagans do our rituals. Life is the energy force that binds together everything. We are all interconnected by it. That is how and why magic works.
What you do to your fellow creature you do to yourself. We must learn to share and live together or we will have no future and the next creature to take over will be the cockroach. Will they mourn us?

Well, this scientific evidence must be well hidden... Mind showing us?



I actually havent been taught evolution in school... might have to do with the fact that I go to a catholic school :@



And which version of creationism should they teach? All 150+ would really not leave enough room to teach anything else, nor to teach exactly why creaitonist science is pseudo science. Oh, why dont they teach my brothers theory: That a big blue bunny rabbit created us all? Thats another alternative.



I challenge you to paint urself black and go to a KKK meeting and tell them they're wrong. I doubt YOU'D escape with your life.



And what do you judge other religions' gods?



Wow, you know what? I have a muslim friend that says the same thing... only he claims god told him Islam is the one true religion, and all the other ones (including christianity) are wrong.



****

I wouldnt say we're all one nationality... but we're all human, and thats all that matters.

We are mere children here in the grander picture and we still have lots of childish fears. With that comes ego, ignorants, hate selfishness and the list goes on. I to fall in to many of them things I state. No one and I mean no one knows for sure which side is right and we will never know the true truths until we let go of all of the things I mentioned above because it clouds the issues and we tend to make it about us. I don't think WE are the most important thing in the universe from a scientific or a religious point of view. we are just part of it. To me science does its best to tell us what it can but I don't think we are at the pinnacle of our understanding of it or religions. With all that being said lol, I think something had to create everything because nothing from nothing is still nothing and science said so so does math, so what made the atom had to have somekind of contionness and I guess that is my GOD. The problem is we just don't know so you have to have faith in either science or creation or both and I believe both, science explains creation to me.

This is a laugh. Especialy by those of your beliefs (and I do not mean all) do exactly the same thing.

Would you say that my gods are a fairy tale? Are my beliefs? Is that fact that my Goddesses; Bast and Mother Earth? Or my Gods; Pan, Kokopallii, and the Green Man?

I don't really exist. I am just a fairy story.

Your 'gods' as you call them ARE indeed a fairytale, I hate to tell you. If you are actually dumb enough to believe in that crap, and then harp on about a belief which has lasted the test of time, just as the only one true God is timeless, then you are just double standarding. And don't say that's what I'm doing because there's more proof for my beliefs than in any pagan 'gods' which come and go as each century passes.

However, believe what you want, I'm not here to change your beliefs, and I have no illusions about the fact that the only one who can change a belief is the said person, themselves. But, seeing as you knocked my beliefs first, I can and WILL defend it, simply because, I know what I'm talking about. I'm not a door knocking Bible preacher, , and I have absolutely no desire whatsoevere to try and convert you to what I believe, what you believe is of your own consequence, but at the same time, I should be free to talk about my beliefs as freely as you do yours, with people who have an understanding and can actually grasp what I'm talking about, which is why I don't aim my posts at people whose beliefs differ from mine, simply because all it does is end in the same old argument, which takes away from the original subject.

In Ashleys voice "Nuh uh! I'm right you're wrong! I have proof, you dont!"






Oh yes. Thats exactly it. Christians dont have a double standard... but everyone else does... because Christianity is the oldest religion in the world! Its been around for 15000 years, while humans have only been around for 6000!


You know, if you want to talk about the test of time... isnt hinduism the oldest popular religion around? I guess you'rs is wrong cuz Hinduism is older!



Theres no proof of any. Thats why its called a belief. Instead of going around like a parrot and repeating "Theres proof of my belief!" why dont you show some?

Its quite funny if you think about it... Ashley denies evolution for "lack of evidence" and then turns around and claims theres proof of christianity. Maybe that should be the double standard you should be talking about...?



Yes, too bad you're the only one who thinks you know what you're talking about...



Funny... You just bashed pretty much every other belief... and then you talk about how you should be able to talk freely?


You're post is one of the most appauling posts I've read here. You claim anyone who doesnt believe the same thing you do is dumb, and say THEY are double standard. You go on to say your religion is proven, and all the others are not. Get a clue, get a life, and get some medication.

Well, I am so sorry your majesty, I am just defending my belief system the same way you defend, well, your belief in nothing, another's belief in 'gods' and, yet other's belief in humanities all-knowing intelligence and science and the fact that they truely believe they're talking apes! If I'm double standarding, so are they, why should I walk on eggshells when everyone else goes around just as freely, if not more so, trampling everyone else? If you want to go into battle about it, play fair, and playing fair means that if you go below the belt I bloody well can too. And seeing as I seem to be one against many because I'm the only one who has enough audacity to go the whole mile, then see no problem with my defence.

Bring it on.

Silvercougar is still thinking of what to say....think hard, use those brain cells.

You are exactly the type of person I talk about. You think because of a book, you're right and everyone else who has different beliefs is wrong, and will rub that in thier face. No, my gods are not fairy tales. They were worshiped and honoured LONG before the monothiest god.

And knocking your religion, please. Having to put up with mine, and the millions of others who worship different gods, follow other philosiphies, or none at all being torn apart, ridiculed, called fairy tales, told that our words are wrong because a dictionary said something that was put there by someone with no clue. I have very little sympathy for you.

I see you shelling it out, but you're not taking it very well.

I'm not in the least bothered, I know what I believe in, I know WHO I believe in.

Tell me, have you ever *met* your 'gods'? And as for taking it all from a book, one, no I don't what I know I know to be true and those *books* you talk of just back that up, can you say the same? And isn't it science which takes it all from books, just as you do also when you go into the restricted section of your library to read about your 'gods'.

Excuse me? Who the hell are you? Whoops, I'm sorry your majesty for delaying your precious time by dealing with my job and household chores. I can't just drop everything at the drop of your pin. You can shove off.

You asked for this crapfest by being obnoctious and spouting crap like there was no tomorrow. If god's right for you, that's grand. But that gives you NO RIGHT to tell other's their wrong for their own beliefs and condeming them to hell.

Tolerance is a wonderful thing. Shame mine for you is thin now. Your little insult here deserves none. And that kind of crap will get the thread locked.

Yes, I've met my gods. Not like you care. I can just see your reply to that now. "You were just hallucinating..or lieing"

Remember, that can be turned onto you.

LOL, well, you began by knocking my beliefs...what was that about fairy tales that you said? I don't condemn to hell, it's not up to me, nor is it up to any human being, but I can tell you there is one, whether you chose to believe that or not is your own concern, I don't really care, but if you harp on, so shall I.

LOL, ok, you've seen your 'gods', what, the Sun? The Moon? Is that what you call your sight of 'gods', that which is said to be under the dominion of God, whose movement and inhabitation is that of God's angels?

Elaborate more, so I can understand, please.

No, you're not. What your doing is insulting anyone with a belief opposite of yours.



Everyone else? YOU're walking on eggshells? Please...



Uhuh, I see you know the rules... but it seems you dont know that you are also supposed to FOLLOW the rules.



You see no problem with calling those with opposite beliefs, dumb?



I wish I could say the same to you.



IMO, they're fairy tales too, sorry. Just my take on it. Im happy you dont say that whoever doesnt believe you is dumb though...



Have you met yours? I have a feeling you would say yes... and if Cougar said no, you'd use that as proof of your belief.



I see we're playing the "Make the reader try and make a coherent phrase" game...



What if he can?



Erm, science isnt taken from books.... You've got to know nothing about science if you think that science is based on what a book writes... science is based on factual observation of natural phenomenons.



Fairy tales is one thing, its calling people dumb because of it thats over the line. Tell me... what do you believe other gods are? Not real, fairy tales... its obvious. I think its all a fairy tale too, just like they think Jesus is a fairy tale and you think their gods are fairy tales... but we dont call you dumb because of it.



No, you can tell me you think theres one.

Well, I've already made my statements on the above, and if you couldn't understand the phrasing of my words, read them over again.

As for SilverCougar if she claims to be seeing these 'gods' then it's very possible that she is seeing something but not what she thinks it is. The Nephilim tried to make themselves 'gods' which they were not, though they did exist. If you want to believe demons are your 'gods' then that is your problem. No living, nor unliving thing, on Earth, nor in Heaven is not under God, even you Stellar. Whether God choses to turn away from those who are ignorant is God's concern.

reading this tread only proves what I wrote,geeeesh where is this getting you guess now. If you wish to debate then debate because this is getting really silly.

The Sun and Moon represent my Gods. As the cross or the Pieta represents your God. The Egyptians were said to worship cats, they didn't, they worship Bast that was represented by the cat making the animal sacred. I see the Earth as a living being and I love and respect her. She is my Mother and sacred to me. When I say I have seen my Gods I mean just that I have seen my Gods in that they have appeared to me in human form. They are as real to me as your god is as real to you. Seeing a God in the Pagan world is not seen as a big deal, because it happens a lot. When christians see their god they get all excited and run around like it is some big hairy deal. We Pagans keep it mostly to ourselves out of respect for our Gods and the fear of being baker acted. I even see your god as real, but I see him in a very different way than you do. I have been warned by my Gods to beware him as he is not as he appears. When I look at the history of your god I can see why they tell me this. My Gods love and care for me. They give me what I need to get me through this life and prepare me for the next level of life.
You want to read a book about your god. Read Mark Twain's "Stories From Earth". It is a real eye opener. I was amazed I didn't know old Mark had it in him.

Now do you understand?

I only have this to say, MY God, RULES your 'gods', which you say are the Earth, Sun, Moon, etc, MY God created them - just as He did you, these 'gods' you talk of bend to the will of MY God. And if MY God so wished, He could destroy them all. And if you think that's unjust, think about a painter who rips up his work because it didn't come out right, so too can God destroy what He created.

My God, is my Heavenly Father, and my Father, is your Father, whether you chose to accept that or not.

*shakes head in disappointment*
It's really interesting to see people behaving in such an immature way, referring to the Supreme Being as something that belongs to them. "MY God", "MY God", "MY God"... God is one, and is for all. Whether people choose to call the Supreme Being as Jesus, God, Allah, or choose to see the expressions of this, one God, on the Moon, the stars, the leaves, that has nothing to do with it.

Btw, Ashley, what happened to "Love and respect"? Last time I checked, "hollier than thou" doesn't belong to christianity (or anywhere else, actually). Do you really consider yourself to be on the right way when you say arrogantly "MY God" and attacking others for their belief?

And that's fine. I don't think anyone who believes that they are are dumb. I think those who so rudely go about it are dumb. Those who go around saying that they're right, others are wrong and go off ther nut to try and prove the point.

~~~~~~~~~

No, I did not crap on your beliefs, Ashley. I've never crapped on other's beliefs. I have the problem with your additude. I have a problem with anyone who rub thier beliefs in another's face saying that they better worship like them. Belive in what they believe.

You say your god created my gods, I say no he did not. I hold my belief that man created gods out of what they see. So yes, I see my gods every day when I experiance life. And what created life, this world, this solar system, what science says. Big bang, one and a million chance. Personaly, I'm not going to waste my life worrying about it. It's short and I want to enjoy what I got. And thankful for the gods for being there. Enjoy time with my friends.

Just like you see yours. If you want to keep going on beliveing in him, then by all means. But that does NOT give you the right to call mine wrong. That does NOT give you the right to be all high and mighty about it. You're better off if you accually practice what Jesus said. Tolorance, understanding, acceptance, non judgmental.

What got my hackles up was my beliefs being razed on, being called fairy tales. So like I said, you sure can dish it out, but you cannot take it.

Believe what you like, Ashley, My Gods will not send you to hell, yours might, but mine won't. I am at peace with my life and happy with my beliefs. I will not change inspite of your and those like you rantings. I take great delight in pushing ya'll as far as I can. If you don't want your buttons pushed don't display them. Your mind is very closed it is too bad as you will miss so much.
I am sorry you still do not understand. Your god did not create my Gods as they were around long before your god and they are still here. If he is so much more powerful than mine then why are they still here? He tried during the biblical times and during the burning times but they are still here. They seem to have a lot of staying power. I heard a Pagan say this once, Do not battle with Pagans, christian, we have more Gods.

Then its also very possible that you think you know what the word of god is but its not what you think it is.



You believe they did exist.



I dont think they believe demons are their gods at all. Maybe a deamon is your god and is tricking you?



Again, thats only, and I stress *only* your *belief*.



Thats your *belief*. They dont believe that your god created theirs. Honestly, none of it is proven.



Im glad theres some people around who actually dont argue about science at each instant, and actually incorporate it into their beliefs



Lol

Asheley makes all these claims about how right her God is, yet her religion dies a little more each day. It is a very small minority in Europe (20% with the exception of Italy where it is 49%) and has just become a minority in the U.S. (49% and falling yearly), Hinduism on the other hand is much older than her religon (even counting Judaism) and actually is growing by .5% a year!