Debate setup by Vox.

Should everyone be entitled to free institutionalised healthcare, or should people have to pay for it?
This is a formal, 1 vs 1 debate.
Looking for two debaters to debate the subject!
Once we get someone interested in debating, i'll post the rules and get this underway.

Any questions, PM me!!

Novo will be debating that it should be free for everyone, so we're waiting on someone to debate that it should not be free for all.

As burnside pointed out, my job here is to debate in favor of free healthcare. Unlike the traditional idea of free healthcare (think canada and sweden) I would like to propose a couple of changes to those systems as well. As we all know Im a practicing anarchist, but for the sake of the debate Im going to try to keep from color coating the debate with my views and opinions. First off, healthcare should certainly be free. Why not, whats a little bit of extra money on your taxes next to a 20000$ hospital bill. Im not aware of exactly the way the canadian and swiss healthcare systems operate, so I would assume if you cannot or do not want to wait you can simply pay and get it done sooner.

Just waiting for someone to join the debate who wants to argue that healthcare should not be free for all.

It's gonna be kinda hard to find someone to do that...cus I think it should be free too...But I guess I can think of a few reasons why it shouldn't, but I am not a good debator...so I will wait along with you.

If no one wants to join the debate given some time, i'll just close it up.

oh, I will! I completely disagree, but Im gonna do it just for the challenge! lets get started!

ps have the rules for debating changed burn?

Not much Galor. This is a 4 post debate, so each debater posts an introduction, a conclusion, and 4 body posts in which they will be rated on by our debate judges. You must state your sources, and keep it civil. That's it!
Since Novo has already posted his introduction, you're up! And i'll send a message to Novo letting him know he has a new debate partner.
Good luck.
I'll delete your post there so you can think of a good introduction tomorrow as you said.

Tnz burns. Anywayzzz
I'll be using the same format as in my last debate. I'll also highlight main words in bold.

Introduction

Well, from the beginning of civilisation, healthcare had pretty much never been free apart from a few rich countries eg Sveden. As far as you know, you may think that in our modern world today, it is. But it isn't. Most governments can't afford straight out free healthcare services for their citizens, so they raise the tax to include the cost of healthcare. But that isn't really the question. the question is SHOULD HEALTHCARE BE FREE? Well, for one, I think it should, but I'm arguing it not to be just for the challenge Annnyway, Healthcare SHOULDNT be free because this would mean complete financial breakdown for world governments. Let me explain. Firstly:

~ If healthcare wasn't paid for in taxes, the government would have to pay for it with its own money, which could've been used to improve policing and build educational buildings eg Schools, Universities.

~ There would be a longer waiting time for people in the hospital because the hospital would be overcrowded with people from other countries, yes, other countries, who had probably come temporarily over to this country to use the free healthcare system, thus giving longer waiting times to the real citizens of the country.

Well, these are my 2 points for now. I will dicuss them over the next 2 main body posts, while using the other 2 to disprove anything you post

Ps Novo plz we know your an anarchist but your going to have no chance of winning the debate if you go off topic and chat about YOUR opinions

j/k lol

Military Cutbacks, Increased Tourism. Theres lots of places money could be made, or diverted from.


I hate to break it to you, but the governments "Own Money" Is only that of taxes.


From what I understand, the general policy is you have to be a citizen of the country in question to use the FREE healthcare services. As far as waiting gos? Well if you can afford the service in the first place, then you shouldnt have to wait.
Otherwise, you have no right to be complaining about waiting.

ps I edited the post above to take out all the 'bold' mistakes!

Main Body Post I

Ok, in this body post, I will disprove everything you just said Novo and explain my first point in more detail.

Firstly, the first quote you've done isn't actually relevant. It tells me how healthcare could be free, but not why it should be free.

And also your second quote. Not really relevant at this point in the debate, but I'll disprove it now so I don't have to deal with it later. Is the governments 'own money' only that of taxes? Think about tourism. Usually tourists have to pay some kind of small fee to the country, eg through the airport and take heritage sites for example (eg Tower of London in London, Eiffel Tower in París). These are all owned by the government usually and charge tourists/visitors a small fee to go into the heritage site. EG The tower of London is owned by the government and charges a small fee for people to get in.

Sorry if my grammar wasn't correct in that paragraph. I got a bit mixed up heh

And thirdly, if you are in another country and you get hurt, you are usually taken into that countries health care but you may have to pay a small fee, or the embassy of the country you are coming from may have to pay a small fee.

Point 1: Taxes



Yep. About 90% of the governments money is taxes, the other 10% being tourism and whatever. If the healthcare system was COMPLETELY free, the government would have to pay for it with it's other 10% of the money. This would result in worst healthcare and that would possibly mean a higher death rate in the country. So, what is the point of healthcare being free? What's a bit of extra money on your taxes for good healthcare than no extra money on your taxes for bad healthcare? Also, this would affect other things, such as policing, education, politics etc etc which could have been paid for with the money that is now going towards healthcare. Phew!

*end of rant* lol

I think its quite obvious why healthcare should be free, do I really need to explain it to you? See, people get sick. And sometimes they die, Because they cant afford medical treatment.


I would say less than 10% of the governments gross revenue is from Tourism. There are lots of other sources, But Then why should I aid your debate? Im not saying its for all countries, what Im saying is there are many who could afford it easily. The us has 22 Million dollars going into iraq of 30 days. I think that could pretty much cover it. But this isnt about war, this is about healthcare. Im not debating the legitmacy of the war, Im only saying theres funds there that could be used for healthcare.


No problem, I do the same thing sometimes.


Are you sure about that?


Exactly. Taxes-Payed for by the citizens. Now the question is, do the people paying taxes want free health care... or more guns?

No it wouldnt, they could easily raise taxes.

I believe the worst healthcare, is better than the zero healthcare many people are getting now.

Any healthcare, is better than none to people who cant afford it.

And everything else we use tax money for doesnt?

Thanks alot Novo. You've really screwed/confused me!!!

Main Body Post II

As usual, I'm starting off with disproving everything you said and then explaining my second point.



That wasn't the point. I was saying that your statement wasn't relevant to the debate
But anyways, I understand what you mean by people dieing because they can't afford healthcare. But what about the government? They can't just go out and give free healthcare! Most governments can't afford free healthcare for their citizens. Governments shouldn't give out free healthcare because this would lead to a worst life overall. What I mean is, yes, free healthcare would be great, but the money for this has to come from somewhere! You'd have to have a very rich country to be able to give out free healthcare and not forfeit something else. EG maybe a country could have free healthcare but might have to charge a small amount for education? I'm speaking the truth here. Healthcare can be very, very expensive for governments.



??? Lol thats what I said. You should read through the whole post before you start yours.l And I don't think you know how much healthcare costs. Sure, very basic healthcare (bandages, medicines, etc that sort of stuff) can quite easily be bought without any major impact on a countrys economy. So, like I've said soooooooo many times, healthcare can be free but it won't be good. Whats the point of having good healthcare for a bit of money rather than bad healthcare for none. It isn't logical unless the country is some sort of Utopian Paradise


Yey! I thought I was the only one!



No, not completely. But i'm sure that does apply in some countries.



Hmm, depends. Are they winning the war or losing the war?



Then it wouldn't be free then, would it?


Yes, that is one reason why healthcare should be free. But that only applies to a small minority of countries in Africa, where the people are to poor to add anymore money onto their taxes. And many people arent getting zero healthcare. Lots of people are getting at least a bit of healthcare.


Exactly what I just said above, and that governments can't just give out free healthcare! Poor healthcare wouldn't really make any big impact, it may even make it worst (untrained doctors who are paid low wages, infections from unsterilised stuff which can't be sterilised cos it can't be afforded!!!)!



I'm just saying if healthcare was free there wouldn't be as many police or community workers or leisure centers because all that money that used to go to it is now being diverted to free healthcare.

Sorry I g2g I'll prove my other point in my next post.

[QUOTE]As usual, I'm starting off with disproving everything you said and then explaining my second point.[/QUOTE]
Disproving me? Theres nothing to prove or disprove, theres lots of countries practicing this policy. It works, while taxes may have to be raised slightly.

[QUOTE][quote]I think its quite obvious why healthcare should be free, do I really need to explain it to you? See, people get sick. And sometimes they die, Because they cant afford medical treatment.[/quote]

That wasn't the point. I was saying that your statement wasn't relevant to the debate [/QUOTE]
wasnt the point? You can bring up something in a debate, wich even slightly recomends the others argument is wrong without being shot down.

[QUOTE]But anyways, I understand what you mean by people dieing because they can't afford healthcare.[/QUOTE]
Think Cancer patients.
[QUOTE] But what about the government? They can't just go out and give free healthcare! [/QUOTE]
Yes, Yes they can.
[QUOTE]Most governments can't afford free healthcare for their citizens.[/QUOTE]
Us Budget 2004
[QUOTE] Governments shouldn't give out free healthcare because this would lead to a worst life overall.[/QUOTE]
If I had a broken arm, and didnt want to wait to get a doctor you know what I would do? I would pay for it to be done. But if I couldnt afford it? Then I dont see any choice other than waiting. Now if my country didnt have free healthcare, and I didnt have that kind of money then I would never get the surgery in the first place.
[QUOTE]What I mean is, yes, free healthcare would be great, but the money for this has to come from somewhere![/QUOTE]
Please, look through the link I provided you.

[QUOTE]You'd have to have a very rich country to be able to give out free healthcare and not forfeit something else.[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]EG maybe a country could have free healthcare but might have to charge a small amount for education?[/QUOTE]
Look, If a country cant afford medical services, then it probably has a underdeveloped education system already.

[QUOTE]I'm speaking the truth here. Healthcare can be very, very expensive [/QUOTE]
yes..
[QUOTE]for governments.[/QUOTE]
But arent the governments made to serve the people?

[quote]I would say less than 10% of the governments gross revenue is from Tourism. There are lots of other sources, But Then why should I aid your debate? Im not saying its for all countries, what Im saying is there are many who could afford it easily. The us has 22 Million dollars going into iraq of 30 days. I think that could pretty much cover it. But this isnt about war, this is about healthcare. Im not debating the legitmacy of the war, Im only saying theres funds there that could be used for healthcare. [/quote]

[QUOTE]??? Lol thats what I said. You should read through the whole post before you start yours.[/QUOTE]
I never started mind, I quoted you and poked holes in your argument.
[QUOTE]And I don't think you know how much healthcare costs. [/QUOTE]
Wow, so now were using opinions? I thought this was meant to be a debate of facts, not degradtion of your opponent. The cost of healthcare varies. From $50(US) for a doctor visit. To tens of thousands for surgerys.
[QUOTE]Sure, very basic healthcare (bandages, medicines, etc that sort of stuff)[/QUOTE]
What, you mean like my stepmother having to decide between her thyroid medicine or feeding my 2 little sisters? Medicine, should be distributed freely. Why do you think canadian medication is so much cheaper? The profits gone out of it. [QUOTE]can quite easily be bought without any major impact on a countrys economy. So, like I've said soooooooo many times, healthcare can be free but it won't be good[/QUOTE]
If I had cancer I would much rather get treatment from a poorly trained doctor than none at all.
[QUOTE]Whats the point of having good healthcare for a bit of money rather than bad healthcare for none.[/QUOTE]
Some people dont have a bit of money.
[QUOTE]It isn't logical unless the country is some sort of Utopian Paradise [/QUOTE]
Wow, I'll be sure to tell burnsy your talking about canada so well.

[QUOTE]Yes, that is one reason why healthcare should be free. But that only applies to a small minority of countries in Africa, [/QUOTE]
And Asia, And South America, And The Middle East.. Wait thats more than half the world
[QUOTE]where the people are to poor to add anymore money onto their taxes. [/QUOTE]
Were not talking about third world countries anyway, what were talking about is the feasabilitie of free healthcare for 1st world countries.
[QUOTE]And many people arent getting zero healthcare. Lots of people are getting at least a bit of healthcare.[/QUOTE]
And like I said earlier, sacrificing food for it.

[QUOTE][quote]And everything else we use tax money for doesnt? [/quote]

I'm just saying if healthcare was free there wouldn't be as many police or community workers or leisure centers because all that money that used to go to it is now being diverted to free healthcare.[/QUOTE]
No, actully. Taxes would be raised. I can almost gurantee it.

Sorry about having to leave off my last post early. I was banned from my laptop for showing my sister who is 8 years old this picture.

http://members.home.nl/saen/Special/Zoeken.swf

If you don't understand look at it for 30 seconds with the speakers up and then you'll know why

Main Body Post III

Novo, I really need to thank you for saying this.



Thank you!!! This has made the debate so much easier for me!

Anyways, let's get started.

First of all, I'm going to explain my second point in detail, 'poke holes' in your argument, and expalain some theories about why healthcare shouldn't be free in first world countries . Well, firstly, my second point. If your country was giving out free healthcare, theres a good chance people from under developed countries would come over to your country for the free healthcare. This could mean a VERY lot of problems! Firstly, there would be lots of traffic at major ports (eg Airports, Dockports), longer waiting times for proper citizens, and possibly a higher death rate because of how long the waiting time is. This is a weak point and I'm only using it to boost my debate a bit.

Secondly, it's time to 'disprove' (by disprove I mean argue against fairly well ) your statements!



...Your supposed to be arguing for free healthcare, not very low priced healthcare



It helps a bit I guess. Soz I'll try not to do that in future.


That really cheers me up Novo j/k lol umm yeah I guess cancer patients who can't afford healthcare should have free healthcare, but most cancer victims can afford healthcare. I've never heard of or heard of very few people who have cancer and can't afford the healthcare. Give some examples.


Well, duh, technically they can give out free healthcare, but it would have disastrous effects. Ok that just sounded really weird, saying that free healthcare would have disastrous affects. Well, apart from the fact of the free healthcare it would. It would mean less money would be put into everything else. This is why it just isn't logical to have free healthcare, because although of the obvious advantages, there are so many disadvantages that come with it. I just can't stress this enough.


I don't think you read my statement right! I said most governments can't afford free healthcare. The USA, obviously being the only world super-power right now, might be able to afford free healthcare, but I'm not completely sure on this. Most countries just can't afford free healthcare!



You come from the USA, right? Well maybe you should know that the USA doesn't have free healthcare. It's paid for in your taxes. And I don't really understand that fully. Could you rephrase it/explain in detail what you mean plz?


True, but free healthcare may undermine the education even more



Yes, but, omg I've said this so many times, most governments don't have the money for free healthcare.


That's nice.


Well you thought wrong, mate. J/k lol. And I didn't mean for you to take it so personally. Its only a friendly debate! tu up =)



If you had cancer I doubt that treatment from a poorly trained doktorr would do you any good. They might even make your situation worst



Isn't that only in third world countries? I thought we were only talking about 1rst world countries! Very few people don't have at least a bit of money! And all this would be included in taxes, so it wouldn't really apply!







Is it really? Most people know basic healthcare that they can do upon themselves. Remember what I said earlier? Bad healthcare can actually be worst!



When did you say that???



Then, really, what is the point of it then? It would just make an awkward loop. What you're saying is that healthcare should be free but then people be charged for other things more. It makes no sense.

Now, finally, I'm going to recap on some major points why healtcare shouldn't be free.

~ It would most likely be bad healthcare. Your saying that bad healthcare is better than zero healthcare. This is true. But it can also be worst. Poroly trained doktorrs
may make lots of fatal mistakes and may use unsterilised tools, causing infections.

~ It's not logical. It's so much better to have good healthcare for a bit of money rather than bad healthcare for no money. And were only talking about 1rst world countries here .

Phew. I'm so tired. I've been staring at the screen for too long .

In my next post I'll try and make it really detailed and long so as to really convince people that free healthcare isn't good lol that just sounds so weird.

Also, plz don't forget that I think healthcare should be free. But for the sake of the debate I have to argue against it. In my last debate with burnside on Life After Death somebody said that it was stupid that I didn't believe in an afterlife, when I did, I was just arguing against it.

Oh, and soz if the link at the top scared you

As long as its free for CITIZENS of that country then Im satisfied. IF you get f***ed up in another country? You had better have a good insurance policy back home.

I've said it I think 4 times now, Doctors are always going to accept up front cash over the governments money. If you can afford it in the first place than your not going to be waiting for it.



If I pay 5 dollars to get into a dance, with "free" food then is the food still not free? Would you rather pay an extra 40$ a year in taxes, or 20 grand when you have a car wreck?




Im argueing the Logic for free health care, not where it will and will not work.



The U.S.A has no free healthcare policy, and all our benefits are flying out the window to. Lets not get into that.

I await your response my friend.

Ready and willing!

Final Body Post



Fellow anarchist, don't work yourself up ! I completely agree with you, but it's true. It's happened before, except in a different way. Back here in the UK theres a bug going around the hospitals called the MRSA bug, and people from Britain are actually flying over to other countries to get healthcare instead of in the UK, so theres no risk of them catching the deadly bug. Theres a good chance it'd be the same with people from undeveloped countries. The healthcare there may be bad and expensive where they live and maybe one day they'd say "Hey, look at that country, it's go free healthcare! Let's go there!"



That's true (obviously). You've got a good point there. But only if you can afford it. Then it isn't really free healthcare is it? What I mean is free healthcare would cause alot more problems than it solves, if you get what I mean.



Lol, comparing hospital fee's to a dance? Sorry, but I'm just gonna have to use my signature slang, ROFLMFAOMFG!!! Ok, umm, sorry, I got carried away but anyways, of course people would pay 40$ in taxes a year, rather than 20k. But this doesn't make it free. You've got to tell me some more advantages of free healthcare.




Just as I'm arguing where it won't work.



Yep. Don't wanna know what political things are happening in the US (I know enough!).

Oh, and I also await your response meh friend

Good luck!

We're waiting for Novo's Conclusion Post now. Thanks to Galor for pointing that out.
And Galor, Novo's a 'He'.

Sorry pisces, formal debates are only for the debaters to post in. Any other posts will be removed because they interfere with the formal debate.

What Im debating for is free healthcare, So why not make laws that make it available only to the citizens of that country?


If I had a tumor for example, My family could not afford the medical costs to have it removed. Now aside from charity donations we would basically be screwed. If I was rich, then we could afford the operation. Now if the united states of America had free healthcare, then I might have to wait for the operation. But at least I would be able to have it.


It would save lives, to me you cant put a price on such things.

If you can wholeheartedly disconnect yourself from people of a lower Economic Stature then yourself, then be my guest. Leave them to die, and of course suffer miserablly.(Im not at all directing this torwards you by the way, just using it for the sake of argument). Now, I know some people reading this (like joc for example) are firm supporters of poor people being lazy bumbs. And I will say this much-My father works 14 hours a day, 5 days a week. My stepmom works 5 days a week 12 hours a day. There currently "raising" 2 6 year old girls. The only reason, that these girls are alive right now is because my mother(who by the way has not even spoke to my father in years) sent money for there extended hospital stays upon there premature birth. You get rich, through luck. Hard work does have ties to it, but its not always that way. I know plenty of people far above the intelligence of there bosses. Everyone is entitled to a life, free of pain. Regardless of how they choose to live.

Rebuttle

The point is that free healthcare would cause more problems than it solves. Like you said, you can't put a price on life. What your trying to get across is that people who can't afford healthcare will, even though having to wait a long time, eventually get healthcare. But think. Free healthcare would be bad. I doubt that'd be enough to remove a tumor. And also it would cost the government a lot of money.

Pretty much, what I'm trying to say is that it's better to have good healthcare for a bit of money, than bad healthcare for free. And for those who can't afford it? In todays world, taxes count as paying for it so they'd be able to get free healthcare! And as for third world countries? I thought we weren't talking about them... But anyways, in third world countries charities such as Unicef would provide free healthcare.

Good debate

Thank you both for the great, successful debate!

Now it's over to our debate judges for the scores.

Debator 1: Novo
Relevancy:8
Countering:6
Style:7
Persuasiveness:6
Total:27

Debator 2: Galor
Relevancy:8
Countering:6
Style:8
Persuasiveness:6
Total:28

Debator 1: Novo
Relevancy:8
Countering:5
Style:7
Persuasiveness:8
Total:28

Debator 2: Galor
Relevancy:8
Countering:6
Style:7
Persuasiveness:7
Total:28

well done guys

Debator 1: Novo
Relevancy:8
Countering:6
Style:7
Persuasiveness:7
Total:28

Debator 2: Galor
Relevancy:8
Countering:7
Style:7
Persuasiveness:7
Total: 29

The results are in!

Novo finishes with an average score of 27.
Galor finishes with an average of 28, making him the winner.

Congrats to both of you on an excellent debate.