Friday December 10, 05:31 PM


Ice-age ivory flute found in German cave

BERLIN (Reuters) - A 35,000-year-old flute made from a woolly mammoth's ivory tusk has been unearthed in a German cave by archaeologists, says the University of Tuebingen.

The flute, one of the oldest musical instruments discovered, was pieced together from 31 fragments found in a cave in the Swabian mountains in southwestern Germany, the university said on Friday.

The mountains have yielded rich pickings in recent years, including ivory figurines, ornaments and other musical instruments. Archaeologists believe humans camped in the area in winter and spring.

Mammoths, now extinct, were large elephant-like creatures with hairy coats and long, upcurved tusks. They lived during the Pleistocene period from 2 million to 11,000 years ago.

The university said it planned to put the instrument on display in a museum in Stuttgart.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/041210/325/f8bso.html

I wish I could have found some pictures of this. I thought it was pretty cool.

Very interesting story. If 35.000 years ago humans had already "discovered" music and had invented musical instruments, then the intelligent humans have appeared on this earth long before we believe.

On the latter, there is the discovery of a human skeleton at Halkidiki's Petralona cave, in Greece, which dates back to 700,000 B.C. Several bone tools were also found within the cave as well as traces of the most ancient fire ever lit by human hands in the entire planet (1,000,000 B.C.).


Scull of the 700.000 yr old human skeleton

Very cool discovery.

I had no idea humanity, at such an early stage, had developed musical instruments.

35,000 makes it even more interesting as humans as we know them have been around for only 37,000.

if humans can make an instrument like the flute after only being around for 2000 years, i wonder how old humans were when the first tools were made

Geez, it took humans 2000 years to figure out something as simple as a flute? It's no wonder humans are so far behind the rest of the universe.

hmm...


looks like the ancient/advanced civilization theory just got proven!

atlantis here we come

*wonders if this effects the theory of evolution

And may I ask with what do you make the comparison when you say "rest of the universe"

its still amazing to think that something that was invented by man 35 000 years ago, is still around today and will probably be around for alot longer. but i suppose knives have been around for ages even if they were just sharpened bones or flakes of flint

Knives and weapons are one thing...this is a flute. Music. Which means advanced civilization for a time when most where still roaming tribes.

Indeed, music indicates a very advanced form of thinking. It's not the same thing as making 'sharp objects' to skin an animal, that is merely survival. Music is completely different.......

agreed...but i wonder when the first drum was invented...that seems to be the obvious choice for 1st ever musical instrument. i take it this means that humans have been intelligently creative far longer than we had previously thought

Perhaps even more impressive than the discovery of a flute in 35.000 BC is to discover that people had developed the ability to write as early as in 15.000 BC.
Recent story on that

that is quite interesting aswel nbut the thought that early humans 35 000 years ago playing music is abig difference to the image of living only in caves and painting on walls

Okay, let's say the mammoth tusk is 35,000 years old. My question is, when did it become a flute? If I tear down a 200 year old barn and use the wood to make furniture, can I call it antique furniture? Mammoth tusk are still found to this day. Regardless, I doubt it had anything to do with the advent of music, it was more than likely a toy, something to keep Jr. from wandering off and being eaten by wolves.

On the point of music, let's try a little exercise. Listen to your favorite song, think about how it makes you feel, what is the song about? Tell me and I'll say you're wrong. That song was written, produced, and recorded to make money! That is all it's really about. The only thing the song was meant to convey, is your money into some CEO's pocket. Funny that humans get so passionate over sound waves.

if you think music was only ever to make money....you are sadly mistaken and should go back to school. if you had been to school you would have known that even the compossers we class as "great" made much money. lots of people also encorperate music into religion ( such as hymns). people listen to music for all different reason.

It wasn't a comment on the orgins of music Frey Kade, or on the reasons people bother with it. Only a statement on the state of modern music.

mozart died a poor man.



(as in, he had next to no money)


so music is merely to make money?


join a band. like me.

you'll see, it's not just for money.

[quote]
[quote=witch~hunter,Dec 12 2004, 09:17 PM]
Okay, let's say the mammoth tusk is 35,000 years old. My question is, when did it become a flute? If I tear down a 200 year old barn and use the wood to make furniture, can I call it antique furniture? Mammoth tusk are still found to this day. Regardless, I doubt it had anything to do with the advent of music, it was more than likely a toy, something to keep Jr. from wandering off and being eaten by wolves.
[/quote]

If you made furniture out of a 200 year old barn you would be able to tell by the fresh cuts in the wood and how it was made to know it wasn't an antique.
[quote]
On the point of music, let's try a little exercise. Listen to your favorite song, think about how it makes you feel, what is the song about? Tell me and I'll say you're wrong. That song was written, produced, and recorded to make money! That is all it's really about. The only thing the song was meant to convey, is your money into some CEO's pocket. Funny that humans get so passionate over sound waves.
[right][snapback]400431[/snapback][/right][/quote]


I take it you have never known a musican. They play for the joy of the music if they make any money off it and most don't it is a plus. You must live a joyless life to think way about music. I go to drumming circles and we all make music even those lacking in talent.(me) You should go to one and discover the passion of sound waves.

and if you had read the first post properly, you would have seen that it said "A 35,000-year-old flute made from a woolly mammoth's ivory tusk"

which implies the flute itself was 35 000 years old. NOT the ivory was 35 000 years old

So what are we comparing with the flute, to be sure it is of the style and type used 35,000 years ago?

It could be compared to a tool made as the same time. They would use the same type of tool to make a tool as they did the flute.

witch~hunter, these guys are experts in this field...if they say it's 32,000 years old then it's 32,000 years old...give or take a few centuries.

Thats a very good point though, is the material used to make the flute that old is is the flute it's self that old ?

Its actually quite easy for a faunal analyst to tell if the worked bone/ivory/etc. was green(fresh) at the time it was worked or if it was done much later. So more than likely if its reported as being 35,000 years old then that means the artifact was worked ~35,000 years ago.

Hmm... I am trying to remember an old article I read once about animals making music. Apparently there is a breed of monkeys (or possibly some other primate) where mated pairs actually create and sing a unique duo to each other every morning. There are also other instances of animals creating music just for song. So not a huge leap of imagination, to think that someone who can create a knife and spears, and drawings on a wall, could poke holes in something and make music too. Even if it was just a rough song, and not a symphony.

Siamangs, a type of lesser ape (Hylobates (symphalangus) syndactlus) are known for this, as well as the rest of the gibbons. They don't, however, come up with a unique one each morning. Each pair has a unique "song" that they use to identify each other and sort of establish a unique identity and also establish and protect their territory. Males will also use calls to attract mates. Their "songs" are composed of various trills, whistles, hoos, etc. and, interestingly, the duet must be and is practiced by the male and the female!

Goddess 35000 yrs? awesome-o... it does leave question aboot how this affects the theory of evolution now though (go Me_again ) and even more the advanced human race.... lol how humiliating would it eb to find we moved backwards in technology ?

Well, over the centuries we've had hundreds of thousands of wars and battles...it's understandable how certain techniques, music, cultures, etc may be lost, resulting in slowness of human progression.

Sorry my sentence didn’t come out the way that I intended. I meant that each couple had a unique song. And they sang that song each morning. .:disclaimer:. lol, like I said, it was an article I had read a long time ago. So details are fuzzy. Sorry for any misrepresentation.

I believe the black palm cockatoo uses a stick to beat on a hollow tree to make a drum sound. They try to keep the stick that they have fashioned for this purpose. I will look around and see what I can find on it. I know the mocking bird that lives around my house changes his song everyday. You never know what new sound he is going to come up with.

This in no way affects the theory of evolution. You guys are blowing this way out of proportion. Its a chunk of ivory with some holes poked in it not a computer or something. People don't realize that the hunter-gatherer lifestyle left way more freetime in daily life than we have today. It has been estimated that most hunter-gatherer groups had to work about 8 hours a WEEK not a day to obtain all the necessary calories to survive. So this would leave tons of freetime to pursue other things. I would have been bored out of my mind! It doesn't surprise me one bit that something like this was found.

This case just shows you how ancient music really is...:-D

Dam, I want to be a hunter-gatherer. Some where we humans really screwed up.

I found some information on the drumming of the Black Palm Cockatoo.


http://www.worldparrottrust.org/wpt12/palmcockatoo.htm

ah to be hunter -gatherer and to be lazy.that is the life <sinks intohis chair>

wot the hell is this thingy

The life of a hunter-gatherer:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/h...216_brody.shtml

I did a little research on the faunal analyst koenig212003 spoke of, it's very intresting, but nothing about what they do sounds easy, or exactly precise. Although they have a wealth of knowledge there are so many factors to consider that it often boils down to an educated guess. Having a faunal analyst examine a piece is just one of many test to determine the age of anything that old. If the tests total conclude the flute is 35,000 years old, that figure will stand until proven wrong. Most archaeologist will not state the age of a find unless they are sure it will stand to questioning, and they invite anyone to do so. Which I think is a very good thing.

Well, that hasn't changed much really.

8 hours a week of your paycheck will cover your food expenses and then some. unfortunatly we have raised the bar a bit and are having to work so much harder for things like nice houses, cars, insurance, cel phones, computers, televisions, make-up, books, vacations, taxes...

The list goes on.

So if you are willing to live out of a cave, never bathe, never see a toilet or hot and cold running water, chase your food down with a club and eat various meats cooked over an open fire along with any goodies you may find laying on the ground, you too could work a mere 8 hours a week to get your food taken care of.

Personally, I will work the extra time so that I can have the extra goodies. I will say that there is an important idea in there that a balance must be found so that we are not all about work all of the time...

Fluffybunny just described about 90% of the people I've had work for me. All you have to do is read "mobile home" where it says "cave".

I actually did live like that for a while. I lived in a tent. I ate fish, gator and snake. I did work at the time and was able to put some real money away and I enjoyed it. Cooked over a campfire everynight. If my MS hadn't reared its ugly head I might still be doing it.

I think it's good for people to take time off from the "real world" and try a little solitude/living off the land. I bet it was enjoyable, Darkwind.

(by the way, alligator is pretty good, I've always like it)

Oh by the way I was working on a fish farm and it was legal for me to take gators to get them out of the ponds. Don't get gator in restaurants few people know how to cook it. They over cook it which makes it tough.

never thought of eating reptiles.....wonder if snake is any good.....what does gator taste like??? does it have a taste and texture similar to anything else??

Reptile is usually a white meat. You know the old saying- 'Tastes like chicken'? Well, sort of, but not exactly. If you have ever eaten frog legs, it's pretty similar.

But I've only had either snake or gator-tail fried, and anything deep-fried pretty much tastes the same.

Geez, I sound like such a hillbilly...

Honey, thar ain't nuthin' wrong with bein' a hillbilly! My ancesors came from good mountain stock and I've noticed most Texicans have hillbilly ways, we call fried rattlesnake "prairie chicken" incidentally!