It amazes me how much is made of the book of Revelations. Could it not simply be the writer was high on ergot ? Smoke some salvia or eat some peyote and you too can see great winged creatures and weird little beasties. I wonder what those that really believe this end times stuff think about other cultures sacred writings. Should they not be given the same level of acceptance ? Why not?

welcome to UM, waterjet!

christians accept that other religions have their own sacred wrtings, but we just do not accept their beliefs as our own. A LOT of revelations is symbolism, much like the book of daniel, when it speaks about the end times... and about the ergot thing, there's the same possibility of other religions' sacred writing's having been writen by someone on drugs... it's something we'll never know, but we christians have faith that the Bible is true, as any other person of a different religion has faith that their holy book, or whatever it may be, is true.

i hope that helped

Hello J. Freak,

I agree that many sacred writings were or could have been realized under the influence of drugs. I disagree that all Christians believe some things can be attributed to symbolism. There are those that do not.

Yes, UM seems to be a fun place to explore.

Waterjet

I never said that... i know some christians think that every word of the Bible should be taken literally...

The Book of Revelation wasn't an acid trip. (maybe those on acid just see more than what is more than humanly possible anyway ). The way angels are described there are more like how they really are (when they aren't appearing human) like the 4 fixed sign Cherubim (which encompassed the signs of Taurus - the one with the bull head, Leo - the one with the lion head, Scorpio - the one with the eagle head (there are 3 symbols of Scorpio, the eagle/pheonix being the symbol of the highest good, the serpent in the middle, and the scorpion the lowest evil) and Aquarius - the human head). They really DO look like that. They also appear like that in Ezekial.

If you know anything about astrology you would know what the properties of these signs are. It was said that satan was of the highest order of Cherubim (but he's like one of the ONLY ones which went bad, the rest are still Holy). And the four fixed signs which they respresent show the 4 evils of this world. Taurus - money/greed, Leo - pride and arrogance (which it was said that was the cause of satan's fall) kings and kingdoms are also ruled by Leo it should be noted, Scorpio -sex, death, revenge (in this sense, sex IS death (the French even call it 'the little death). It was sex which gave death to Adam, it is both sex and death which separates humanity from those in Heaven because they neither have sex nor die - satan as I've said before, is himself a scorpio), and Aquarius - rebellion, science, and the unconventional. These four themes play out the greatest of sins. These are the bad traits of the signs howevere, and every signs has both a good and a bad side, as with everything. These four signs, being the four fixed signs, also represent obviously the four elements, Taurus - Earth, Leo - Fire, Scorpio - Water, and Aquarius - Air. It should also be noted that the abyss on the Earth is said to be at the bottom of the ocean.

Now, on top of that, Daniel also saw the end, much like Revelation, Enoch saw the end and he was in the beginning (Genesis time), etc. The themes he saw there are right, and a correct 'revelation' of what is to come. Paul, ALSO saw the end, but the book was thrown out because the themes were too harsh. However, originally, Paul's Apocalypse was considered before Peter's, but Peter's won out. So, don't hold your breath, it's all true . However, you can believe as you want.

It should be taken literally. Why does everyone insist on seeing Heaven and those in it in human terms. It is beyond the human. Jesus Himself said that everyone was blind. blind in the sense that they can't see (and/or understand) Heaven, and anything beyond this world. Open your eyes - and your mind.

well, you do know we were made in God's own image... if something is made in something's image, it's going to look just like it right? well, haveing said that, dontcha think God looks kinda human? Yes, He's gonna be shining brighter than the sun when we see Him, but we look like Him.

And don't tell astrology is 'bad' astrology was accepted until Austine got ahold of things. Go look at the old cathedreals they have the signs of the zodiac on them. The 8th Heaven has the Zodiacs and the 9th the HOUSES of the Zodiacs (which is something ONLY used in astrology called ths rising sign and chart wheel).

On top of that it was taught by one of the angels (who, by the way, before their fall they were in Heaven and were Holy angels, they didn't 'rise up out of hell'), it was a secret of Heaven, that is why they got in trrouble for it. That and people started worshipping these stars instead of God. God made the Zodiac, and God made astrology. Anyway, I've said all this before, but I'm just recapping.

Yes, God does have a human face (and contrary to what someone else said on here, He DOES have a voice). That doesn't mean all the angels do, but they can all appear human. However, God is not human, God is God. Angels, also are a separate creation made before humans, and are therefore also, not human.

Humans are mortal, they perish and die, those of Heaven do not.

If humans die and go to heaven that makes them immortal right? I'm Aquarius. O.O Lol.

Hey so what is everyone's sign in here?

i never said angels were human... angels are bodyless, but can take form of stuff...

and i'm libra and scorpio... i'm right on a cut-off date, and some places say i'm libra, but others say i'm scorpio

So how do the angels get to where they are? I've heard stories that say Satan was an angel but a fallen one. If God makes angels then did God make Satan? That would be interesting. If God could see the future he would have been able to see that Satan would become what's his face and hey! What if God did it on purpose just to make sure he had a punisher? Lol sorry I'm having fun.

Ok, yes they aren't human, but they aren't bodiless. The forms talked about in Revelation, etc ARE they purest form. The fact that they can appear human isn't because they lack a body.

God made angels...

yes, God made Lucifer.... the most beautiful of angels... lucifer got mad, rebelled, got a large group of angels (1/3 of all of 'em) and God threw them into Hell.

Why did he rebel?

...Umm.. so does that mean lucifer is still the most beautiful of angels, or is he all twisted-demonish?

Ooh, Hot evil guys. Lol. *Pictures Sephiroth form Final Fantasy as the devil*

The only Final Fantasy I've ever played is the really old one for the ORIGINAL gameboy

Hey Maekrix, I read your info and I was wondering- do you want to read a fantasy/sci-fi book [or parts of it] and tell me if you think it's good or not?

haha, well, satan is a diseiver, and he is an angel, so he can change form... but he rebeled because he was jealous of humans

I would be jealous of humans too, man. I would hate to be immortal. It's gotta be the worst thing ever. I can't believe in heaven just because of that. I figure everything has some sort of circle to it and never ends... heaven, to me, seems to be a place where life completely ends.

Ah screw it, back to Satan. So why would be jealous of humans make God kick his butt into Hell?

Yes, satan was one of the highest angels, God's favorite to be exact, but because of his own pride, he tried to exalted himself above God. So he got cast out. I wrote about this before. In Revelation in the part about the war on Heaven where it talks about the dragon who is the accuser who accuesed the angels bretherin (bretherin to the angels IS angels, not humans) night and day, and then was cast down to the Earth where it then says 'Woe to the Earth for the dragon has gone down to you' this is talking about when God sent satan HERE, as the accuser of HUMANS. He was also made 'ruler of this world'. Yes, God would have known that satan would fall, but God said Himself that 'no one is at war with Me'. The war in Heaven was to do with angels, because the dragon was accusing angels day and night and contributing to the one thrird of Heaven falling. He is also the tempter. He tempts and then accuses you. This is his job. And he is now bound to the Earth for his pride.



Yes, if you go to Heaven you would become immortal. That is what they mean by 'everlasting life'. Adam orignally wasn't created to die, he was made immortal, but because of his sin through Eve (and God said, he would made a wife for Adam to bring death to him and her name would be Eva which means 'Mother' - this again shows how sex equates with death, so yes, he knew it would happen. He then went on to say that he created Adam to 'see who among his race would love or Abhor Me' thereby showing how this world is a test, a test, to a certain degree of devotion. This happened after satan's fall. And, through satan's jealousy over God's new creation which seemed to have everything, he tempted Eve, and was thrown out of Heavn along with them. Satan (whose original name was Satanail) helped create Eden, he planetd the vine tree. The vine (wine) cause forntication, murder, drunkeness, etc, but can also be Holy (like Church uses). When Noah got off the Ark he found a vine tree lying dead on the floor and he asked whethere he should plant it or not (knowing from Enoch it's history, and from whom it was planted). He was told to plant it for good qwill come from it, but to beware for there is still evil in it, then it went on to say about the murder, fornication, and all the things it causes, and converseley it's Holy use as said above).

I have Auqarius in my chart btw And Pisces. I tend to go on the entire chart, not just part of it.

The Earth is satan's hell, until the end.

Ha ha Aquarius are the best. Lol. Sometimes it's good to rebel. Imagine if no one ever did. *shivers*

because we had free will... which kinda confuses me, because (sorta asking ashley) if satan didnt have free will, how could he sin?

You mean it's his Hell to burn us in? As in OUR Hell? Or is it his own personal Hell? Where he's the one being tortured?

Satan, wants to get back into Heaven, which just gives him more ammunition is accusing humanity. I would say all the fallen want back in. Heaven is in space you know, that's gotta have a better view wouldn't you say?

You know as evil as people say Satan is, I think Humans are the most disgusting things ever.... [yes, I'm insulting myself]. It seems we've been the "evil" all along. Not this guy Satan. From what I've just heard, it seems to me that this world never seemed to be where "Lucifer" wanted to be. Maybe he never belonged here.

haha, it is in space, but it isn't just going to be us floating amoungst the stars.... there are descriptions of heaven in the Bible that describe down to the size of heaven. but the new jerusalem (new heaven) will be 2937448 times better (random number)

well, we werent intended to be evil... a combination of satan's temptations, and our free will caused us to sin... i disgust myself all the time this is from the book of romans:


RO 7:21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Ashley, do you think that a soul could have been born somewhere else in the universe or in some other dimension or time frame out of the whole humanish belief system, then was reborn into a world where all this stuff was happening?

Sometimes I dream of looking down at the Earth from space. I don't feel like I ever belonged here in the first place. It's not that I don't believe God exists to a lot of people, he just doesn't really affect me... do you know what I mean?

if i might share my opinion on your question kat, i think we are created as souls... that's all we are, and when we are put on this earth our soul is united with our bodies

I know this sounds very odd, but I think I've been alive a lot longer than my human body. I feel as if I've already lived a lot of lives... which I know a lot pf people believe in reincarnation but I don't think I was ever human before. I mean, like. I'm in the wrong section of UM aren't I. LOL

I'm gonna have to leave in maybe 10, 15 minutes. I'm gonna go see the Transyberian Orchestra!!! I'll be so awesome.

lol...

And.. actually I think Jesusdude makes sense.

Oh, and I'd be glad to read that fantasy/sci-fi story, Kat

Yay! Alright. I'll send you the first chapter [it's only like two pages].

Yeah, just PM me it or something

It would appear that humans had free will and angels did not. They do however have a mind, and a 'will' (they aren't 2 demesnial characters, they have as much personality as any human, as does God, and everyone in Heaven.) However, if they use their will against God (constituting free will as humans have) they fall. This is why angels fall from Heaven, they can't use free will. Free will is the ability to go against God. God allowed this in humanity to see what they would do, angels don't have that privilege because they are already in Heaven and are serving God. Humans die and get judged and punished thereafter, angels are already in Heaven, so there is nowhere else for them to go except to fall and go to their own 'hell' which there are many of. There are 7 hells which the last 3 levels on the 7th making up the whole number of 10. Those last three levels are the worst, just like the top 3 in Heaven (again on the 7th, making up the 10) are the highest, and where God is. It seems the hell of the fallen angels is on Pluto. That is the prison house of the angels. Pluto rules Scorpio btw.



Yes, it would seem Earth is his punishment, just like the punishment of the 3 that feel from Heaven and were given the blame of the entire sin of the 200 fallen angels in Enoch are bound until the end. (Azzazel, Shemyazza (Shem means 'name' so, technically, it's 'Azza', and Uzza (though some people use a different name. Some variations of spelling still mean the same angel, like how Metatron - which is who Enoch turned into - has several names) are bound. They were given the entire sin and because the 'scapegoat' (especially Azzazel). However, like I said before, there are several hells, or prison houses and it would depend on the sin. The other 200 of those fallen are hanging in the 2nd Heaven (another prison house of the angels) and the Grigori (those who originially fell with satan) are in the 5th Heaven. They stood there in an army, silent with withered faces, Enoch told them not to aggrivate the Lord more, and to start a Liturgy, of which they did, and it would appear God forgave them.

The 3rd Heaven houses the Heaven of humans and on the other side, the hell of humans run by (no, not satan, fallen angels get punished just like everyone else) God's punishing angels who have absolutely to sympathy nor mercy for humanity because of what they must have done to end up there in the first place. Different punishments are given out depending on the sin.

Different orders and heirachies of angels are on the different Heavens btw, so that's why they aren't all the same. The 6th Heaven which has the Holy Watchers (or the Irin Qaddism, two sets (sets being used in plural here) of twin judgement angels). This is where those who fell with women came from. They ALL look the same ('and there was no difference in their faces for their dress') like identical twins, in many plurals (there were like 7 rows of them). But when the 200 of these angels fell (no, not ALL of them fell), they went down to the 2nd Heaven, as said above (bar the 3 bound hand and foot in a whole in the wilderness as said above)

Stars ARE angels (this is why people say they see angels being 'light beings, and why God says 'don't worship the stars' - as in LITERALLY worship, which people were doing...). The Bible shows that repeatedly. However, yes, there are actual 'places' with marble floors and doors, and thrones, etc. it's not just in the middle of nowhere lol. But the laws on the Earth and how things can be set out are irrelevant in Heaven. This is why when Enoch said God's throne wasn't made with hands, he was being very serious. Through gravity out the window there lol.

Sorry, but I can't believe that Stars are angels. If that were so, then the Sun is an angel. I'm sure that's not what angels look like.

From what I understand, stars are gigantic balls of gas.... ...flaming, churning gas

I learn from the stars. Screw everything else around me. A star is born from nebulae.... which is guess what? The remains of dead stars. So basically, stars are reborn from their own ash. That's one reason I believe we can be reborn. I look to the stars for all the answers.

Just like the Phoenix!

Yup. Turns out they aren't mytholigical creatures, ha ha! Just kiddin'.

I totally agree with you there (I've said on another post that humans are the greatest evil). However, yes, satan is in effect 'evil' but he wasn't created that way. He fell before humanity. No one is created evil, they BECOME that way, which is why God says He would rather people repent than for Him to have to hand out punishments. In this respect, even the evil, like that vine, have some sort of good in them, sometimes you it's just buried so deep you can't find it. God says He'll forgive any wickedness and forget every bad thing you've done if you become good, and come back to Him, but if you're good and you turn bad, it would be worse than the a wicked man because that person, would in effect know better. And, what Christians should really think about before throwing stones at everyone and scapegoating is that Jesus said 'don't throw stones unless you are blameless' and no one (with the exception of Jesus, Mary, etc) on this Earth is blameless. You have to take responsibility for your own actions not this 'oh the devil made me do it' crap everyone goes on about. Yes, his job is to tempt, and accuse, but you have free will for the most part he can't make you do anything. That's why when Jesus was tempted by him he said 'be gone satan'.

And, no satan didn't want to be on Earth.

I have an abstract (or, maybe even 'crazy') idea on the relationship between god, space and earth (and earthly beings).

If you've ever played Black and White, it kind of bases on that. If you haven't, basically you're a god (appearing as a ball of light, but you use a big hand in the sky). Anyway, there are lots of different worlds and other gods, and you can only effect whats in your 'belief' range (range of people who believe in you). You'd probably have to play the game, or at least see the introduction, to see my idea.. but hey.. I think it'd be something to ponder...

(don't get me wrong, I'm just suggesting, no definites, no claims of belief... abstract concept, nothing more)

Kat... have you sent me that chapter yet?

being blameless is darn near impossible... but through Jesus Christ anything is possible... actually, you are blameless right after you repent, up till the point where you sin again.


oh, and maekrix, i sent you a little article about the "Jesus fish" i don't know if you got it... (thought it was appropriate to tell you, since you were wondering about PM's)